[Tango-L] Keith from HK and walk-the-walk
Keith wrote: "You sound like yet another guy who likes to talk-the-talk but can't walk-the-walk. Tango is full of them". With nearly every one of your posting, you incite me to anger. Whilst your invective mightn't be directed at me, I am a recipient of the posting and what you write is in my face. From the tone of your language, I imagine you are mainly associated with women whom you can bully around. Such an aggressive talk-the-talk as yours amongst men, would see you having to walk the walk. That you still behave as you do, suggests you must be either a giant of a man, or just a little man amongst women. I'm sure if you ever go Tangoing in Australia, I'll be able to recognise you. Tango in my experience isn't full with the likes of you - thankfully. Oh and Keith, some of us in Tango will walk-the-walk. Anton Stanley ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire
> Paying for dances is quite an interesting subject. I have heard that in > Japan there are far more women than men who dance tango, so the Japanese > women have to import men (Argentinians naturally) to dance with. I don't > know if that is true, but that is what I have heard and if it is true it > is a perfectly understandable reasonable solution to a local problem. Victor, this is a half-truth. Or maybe your misunderstanding of what you have heard. The true part is, yes, in Japan, there are far more women than men dancing tango (probably 2-3 times as many at times?) but that "Japanese women have to import men (Argentines) to dance with" is a rather twisted interpretation of what is going on here. Ok, here is the reality of Tokyo: Some men are imported from Argentina, yes, but not by the women themselves but by the dance schools or those promoting tango events. And not as "men" but rather, as tango teaching assistents and performers. They have an extra job as taxi dancers during the milongas, unless they are otherwise engaged with some performance on that day, and this is how they help the schools survive. Because many women come to the tango studios specifically to dance with these guys, sometimes for lack of other options, sometimes because they are more fun to dance with than the rest of the men at the milongas. The taxi dancers at the milonga do not cost anything, and they are not obliged to dance with any particular women, although those that book loads of privadas probably get preferential treatment. It goes without saying that if an attractive male star dancer comes over from BA, he gets lots of bookings for privadas from those (same?) women, who often just want to have the experience to have a really good dance partner all to themselves for a while. And this results in tipping the scales even further in favour of good female dancers vs. mediocre male dancers who don't work very hard on their skills as they are flooded with offers from those 2/3 of women who would rather dance with them than sit around most of the evening waiting while the one third is dancing... All in all a very sorry state of affairs, really, but what can one do in this situation, and that way, at least, all the good milongas here have a few imported Argentine males participating regularly. If you watch the movie "Shall we dance" (Japanese version) you can see what qualms many Japanese men have about dancing, the movie is a bit silly but not exaggerating the situation all that much. It gave me the creeps when I watched it, actually, I could not laugh... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
Just another perspective on this:
Victor wrote:
Yes, and there have been horror stories of spending two weeks in BA without
dancing at all by some people. It isn't just that they don't dance with
tourists or people they don't know; it's more a question of waiting to see if
you
really know how to dance tango, meaning traditional, social tango and not
performance and open embrace stuff, which is basically just showing off to
them. If
that's all you do, don't expect your glances to be returned, because it will
be obvious you are a tourist. I dance and teach traditional tango ("close
embrace" for the historically challenged) and I have never had a problem
getting a
partner there, although I did have to get on the floor and convince the women
that I did know how to dance. I just grabbed the nearest woman (who was a
beginner) and managed to struggle through, but at least I was able demonstrate
to
those watching that I knew. Please heed what iis often repeated on this list.
Open embrace tango is not danced in the milongas there (with rare
exceptions). Don't expect to impress anyone with ganchos or back sacadas or
whatever is
the step of the month. You will just look foolish and obviously be a tourist.
re taxi dancing; it is hardly a new phenomenon. There were taxi dancers here
during the big band days and is not a bad idea if you can afford it. I have
been approached about being a taxi dancer for someone who lives in Buenos Aires
and comes to New York to visit and doesn't want to sit around at the milongas
waiting to be asked. However, if you hire one, you should still know how to
dance traditional tango. The real problem is that people, in the U.S. at least,
can't even agree on all the different names for the various styles of showing
off that is passed off as tango. "Salon" and "tango liso" (which evolved
during the time of Di Sarli's orchestra and is called that because of it's
elegant
smooth style - "liso" means smooth or polished) are often confused with
performance, while "close embrace" which is basically traditional tango (as is
"milonguero" with a little variation) is just considered by people here as
another
style among many. Go figure!
Ironic isn't it, that all these tango stars make all this money by teaching
steps that you can't use down there. Caveat emptor.
Okay, so dance whatever you want, to whatever music you like, but don't be
surprised when you sit around at the BA milongas.
Cheers,
Charles
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Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Just another perspective on this: > > Victor wrote: get dances initially in BsAs (and sometimes in other places too!) typically > if you are not well known by the local dancers.> > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com closings • commercialization • chain of title • contracts ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
>I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. pardon me, Carol, but this one who responded was very much a woman... I have heard it both ways- a young, pretty lady went from Tokyo to BsAs for a week's stay (36 hours by airplane, mind you!) only to sit around and be ignored for the first four days at the milonga. Anybody remember Larry Carroll's reports from Argentina years ago before he left this list? Something like "I dressed young in a light grey silk shirt, went to a milonga full of young people and every time I thought I had caught somebody's attention enough to give her the cabeceo, I realised she was concentrating on looking at someone behind me. Finally I decided to prove to them that I could dance and went onto the dance floor during the break and performed a state-of-the-art giro con lapiz by myself with perfect balance and suave elegance. Still, nothing..." I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about who they dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are really good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve to ask them directly. Then, there is the other side: the rich aging Japanese ballerina who spent her time in BA picking men's wandering hands off the side of her breast in the close embrace, the other lady who was offered private lessons by everyone who asked her to dance, the one who was told by an Argentine:"If you want to get any dances here, you have to wear sexier clothes and show more skin...", and the man who had a great time dancing with all his fellow tourists... Argentine women have told me that BA milongas can be just as bad as Tokyo, as far as gender balance is concerned, and while a "friend" regularly dances with them at one milonga full of people from the same age group, he will ignore them completely the next day at another milonga where the women are younger... maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Fw: taxi dancers
> >>I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about > female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the > women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them > to ask anybody. > pardon me, Carol, but this one who responded was very much a woman... I have heard it both ways- a young, pretty lady went from Tokyo to BsAs for > a week's stay (36 hours by airplane, mind you!) only to sit around and be > ignored for the first four days at the milonga. > Anybody remember Larry Carroll's reports from Argentina years ago before > he left this list? Something like "I dressed young in a light grey silk > shirt, went to a milonga full of young people and every time I thought I > had caught somebody's attention enough to give her the cabeceo, I realised > she was concentrating on looking at someone behind me. Finally I decided > to prove to them that I could dance and went onto the dance floor during > the break and performed a state-of-the-art giro con lapiz by myself with > perfect balance and suave elegance. Still, nothing..." > I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about who they > dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are really > good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve to ask > them directly. > Then, there is the other side: the rich aging Japanese ballerina who spent > her time in BA picking men's wandering hands off the side of her breast in > the close embrace, the other lady who was offered private lessons by > everyone who asked her to dance, the one who was told by an Argentine:"If > you want to get any dances here, you have to wear sexier clothes and show > more skin...", and the man who had a great time dancing with all his > fellow tourists... > Argentine women have told me that BA milongas can be just as bad as Tokyo, > as far as gender balance is concerned, and while a "friend" regularly > dances with them at one milonga full of people from the same age group, he > will ignore them completely the next day at another milonga where the > women are younger... > > maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
My apologies, I just noticed that part of the quoted phrase was deleted from my posting. The phrase was "... it its really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs...typically if you are not well known by the local dancers." Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
My mistake, I wasn't reading all the emails carefully enough. Sorry-- Astrid wrote: >> I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about > female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the > women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them > to ask anybody. > > pardon me, Carol, but this one who responded was very much a woman... > I have heard it both ways- a young, pretty lady went from Tokyo to BsAs for > a week's stay (36 hours by airplane, mind you!) only to sit around and be > ignored for the first four days at the milonga. > Anybody remember Larry Carroll's reports from Argentina years ago before he -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com commercialization • merchandising • distribution ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
Hi everybody, What happens in Buenos Aires is that no good dancer (either man or woman) will dance with somebody that she/he haven't seen dancing before. That means that if you want to be invited to dance at a milonga without renting a Taxi dancer, you should go to a class first (many milongas have classes before the ball) so as to meet some people who is going to stay afterwards. This is a good way to be sure that somebody will ask you to dance/ accept your invitation. Best, María [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: My apologies, I just noticed that part of the quoted phrase was deleted from my posting. The phrase was "... it its really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs...typically if you are not well known by the local dancers." Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Los referentes más importantes en compra/venta de autos se juntaron: Demotores y Yahoo!.Ahora comprar o vender tu auto es más fácil. Visitá http://ar.autos.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
On Oct 15, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Astrid wrote: > I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about > who they > dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are > really > good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve > to ask > them directly. > ... > > maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) > It's quite simple, actually figure out how to dance, and you will get dances. The foreigner guys who can't get dances simply don't know how to dance the way the Argentine women want. If you show up to an afternoon milonga able to dance "the way they do", then they accept you as a tango dancer. You get the first few dances, and the whispers go around the tables, "Ooh, check out the new guy/girl", and they are looking right at you for a dance. You sometimes get the surprise: "You don't dance like a foreigner", which maybe says something about all the bad foreigners out there. One correction. The issue isn't about being "really good". "Merely good" is sufficient if you know how to dance appropriate to the particular Buenos Aires milonga. Overwhelmingly, this means milonguero or close salon, but some people claim there are a couple milongas or practicas where other styles are appropriate. Decent does NOT mean you have to know lots of giros and steps. Decent means: - Good embrace, confident movements, boldness (male and femaie) - Ability to navigate and deal with crowded conditions - Know the music, know the music, know the music Notice that steps, technique and posture aren't on the list. Frankly, a lot of Argentines are lacking in technique. But, they absolutely know the music and the embrace. Tango is about energy, presence, feel, musicality, not about style or steps. Steps are just the things you do while doing tango. I have made several trips in Buenos Aires over 12 years. I experienced a lot of failure the first time I went down. I returned determined to figure out how to do it right, and on subsequent trips I have had a lot of success. It does take a few days for people to start recognizing you. There are usually more women at a milonga in Buenos Aires, so the men can choose who they want, for good or shallow reasons. Some of the guys are really, really shallow. One reason they prey on the foreigners is the local women have stopped dancing with them. Another reason is that they are just hustling: lessons, dates, money. Almost all the Argentines who walk up to the table are in these categories, hustlers, creeps or can't dance. I think this is more of a problem in the milongas attended by lots of foreigners. Here's a true example of rude behavior. He gives her a really good first couple of dances. The next dance he causes her to stumble, and at the end of the set offers his business card for tango lessons to "help her with her problems". Tom Stermitz Denver & San Diego Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com http://Tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
Tom wrote: > Here's a true example of rude behavior. He gives her a really good > first couple of dances. The next dance he causes her to stumble, and > at the end of the set offers his business card for tango lessons to > "help her with her problems". this one sounds eerily familiar... I believe, I remember it from the days when I took lots of workshops here with various visiting Argentine teachers, and some of them would use this trick to fish for private lessons (make me feel insecure and inadequate and then offer me a privada on better balance etc.) , and others, once I had received a firm base in training from other teachers, would attempt to thus "put me in my place" during a milonga to convince me that I still had a lot to learn (from them, of course...). Thanks, Tom, this is the first time I see my suspicions confirmed. It is so long ago, I had almost forgotten. > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
On 10/15/07, Carol Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seems to me that it's the > women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them > to ask anybody. Is this really true? It seems to me the cabeceo is more or less an equal opportunity custom since both women and men can initiate an 'invite' by staring at somebody. I realize the usual line is that only men can invite but with cabeceo, this requires a fairly narrow definition of 'invite'. Realistically, both women and men invite with their eyes, though on the dance floor, after that negotiation, it may appear as if the woman only accepts. Since in BA the cabeceo is used extensively, if not exclusively, I am not yet convinced that women are more stuck than the men in getting dances. With best regards, Konstantin Victoria, Canada ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I didn't feel at all "stuck" in BA by the cabaceo, on the contrary I felt free and much more in control of my own destiny. As you say, women can, um, encourage anyone they want to ask them with eye contact, and in the meantime they don't have to accept any dances at any time that they don't want to, for whatever reason. Terri --- Konstantin Zahariev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/15/07, Carol Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Seems to me that it's the > > women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them > > to ask anybody. > > Is this really true? It seems to me the cabeceo is more or less an > equal opportunity custom since both women and men can initiate an > 'invite' by staring at somebody. I realize the usual line is that only > men can invite but with cabeceo, this requires a fairly narrow > definition of 'invite'. Realistically, both women and men invite with > their eyes, though on the dance floor, after that negotiation, it may > appear as if the woman only accepts. > > Since in BA the cabeceo is used extensively, if not exclusively, I am > not yet convinced that women are more stuck than the men in getting > dances. > > With best regards, > > Konstantin > Victoria, Canada > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ocho queens-bad leads-good leads
You, meaning anyone concerned with this issue, may wish to review the text at this url - http://www.sculpture.net/community/showthread.php?t=3976 I particularly like the comments taken from Contentious.com. Felix Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:19:19 > -0400> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Ocho queens-bad leads-good leads> > Hey Steve,> > > If you can't answer the question, just say so. You sound like yet another > guy> who likes to talk-the-talk but can't walk-the-walk. Tango is full of > them' > > And thanks for reminding me what I wrote to Jeff - same thing hold > for you Steve.> > A Tango Man's motto should be - NEVER BLAME THE WOMAN. > > > Keith, HK Can the List owner step in and enforce the Tango-L guidelines with respect to this person: List Rules, Policies and Guidelines Personal attacks of individuals (also called ad hominem attacks) have proven to be the most disruptive, with many subscribers leaving the list as a result. Hence, violators of this rule are subject to removal without notice. > On Sun Oct 14 7:33 , steve pastor sent:> > >Keith: > > If you seriously wish > to engage in discussions with people in this> > forum, you might want to > avoid replies such as this one, which you > > posted recently.> > > > "Of > course, Jeff, I'm sure the reason couldn't possibly be your poor leading.> > >Personally, I've never had a woman ... "automatically resolve into an > ocho".> >If you want something different, Jeff, lead something different. And > if you> >can't - don't blame the woman. > >> >Keith, HK"> >> > > >> >> >Keith > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > Can we be a little bit more specific here. > Steve, if the girl can walk and> >do Ochos and Giros, just what are you > leading that they don't know what to > >do? Especially after a couple of > attempts. > >> >Keith, HK> >> >On Sat Oct 13 5:28 , steve pastor sent:> >> >> > > >> "Why aren't they becoming more skilled?" Another answer to this is that> > >> many women become visibly upset if you lead something and they don't> >> > know what t! o do. After a try or two, it's best to leave it alone.> >> And, you know, mostly, the women don't ask for input, or even want to > >> discuss things after they've had lessons or found an adequate number> >> of partners they feel comfortable with. If something doesn't work, it is> >> surely the fact that the man didn't lead it well. Right?> >> But then, maybe that is because we don't have men who have been doing> >> this for decades. > >> If you want to learn, you take lessons from a "teacher". Right?> >> > >> >> >___> >Tango-L mailing list> >Tango-L@mit.edu> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l> >> >> > > >-> >Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!> >___> >Tango-L mailing list> >Tango-L@mit.edu> >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l> > > > ___! > Tango-L mailing list> Tango-L@mit.edu> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailma n/listinfo/tango-l _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
Traditional Tango is both in open and close embrace,(V-shaped) constantly
switching between the two. The only "style" danced permanently in close
embrace(squarre) is the so called "milonguero style" , which is not
"milonguero" or "traditional" at all. It was created in the sixties and
golden age milongueros never danced it.Quite the contrary,they despise it
and called it "Caquero" or "Petitero".
Buenos Aires is a very large and diverse city. Open embrace, Salon and Nuevo
are indeed danced in many places and there is nothing foreign about them..
It all depends who you ask, where you go, when you go, with whom, the music
, floor conditions and your partner.
Back sacadas are beautifull and perfectly social if you know how to do them
and moment is right.
To argue against them only shows your own limitations and your zeal to pass
them on to your students.
In the U.S, in Buenos Aires and in Jupiter
Gabriel
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 6:21 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
> Just another perspective on this:
>
> Victor wrote: to
> get dances initially in BsAs (and sometimes in other places too!)
> typically
> if you are not well known by the local dancers.>
>
> Yes, and there have been horror stories of spending two weeks in BA
> without
> dancing at all by some people. It isn't just that they don't dance with
> tourists or people they don't know; it's more a question of waiting to see
> if you
> really know how to dance tango, meaning traditional, social tango and not
> performance and open embrace stuff, which is basically just showing off to
> them. If
> that's all you do, don't expect your glances to be returned, because it
> will
> be obvious you are a tourist. I dance and teach traditional tango ("close
> embrace" for the historically challenged) and I have never had a problem
> getting a
> partner there, although I did have to get on the floor and convince the
> women
> that I did know how to dance. I just grabbed the nearest woman (who was a
> beginner) and managed to struggle through, but at least I was able
> demonstrate to
> those watching that I knew. Please heed what iis often repeated on this
> list.
> Open embrace tango is not danced in the milongas there (with rare
> exceptions). Don't expect to impress anyone with ganchos or back sacadas
> or whatever is
> the step of the month. You will just look foolish and obviously be a
> tourist.
>
> re taxi dancing; it is hardly a new phenomenon. There were taxi dancers
> here
> during the big band days and is not a bad idea if you can afford it. I
> have
> been approached about being a taxi dancer for someone who lives in Buenos
> Aires
> and comes to New York to visit and doesn't want to sit around at the
> milongas
> waiting to be asked. However, if you hire one, you should still know how
> to
> dance traditional tango. The real problem is that people, in the U.S. at
> least,
> can't even agree on all the different names for the various styles of
> showing
> off that is passed off as tango. "Salon" and "tango liso" (which evolved
> during the time of Di Sarli's orchestra and is called that because of it's
> elegant
> smooth style - "liso" means smooth or polished) are often confused with
> performance, while "close embrace" which is basically traditional tango
> (as is
> "milonguero" with a little variation) is just considered by people here as
> another
> style among many. Go figure!
> Ironic isn't it, that all these tango stars make all this money by
> teaching
> steps that you can't use down there. Caveat emptor.
> Okay, so dance whatever you want, to whatever music you like, but don't be
> surprised when you sit around at the BA milongas.
> Cheers,
> Charles
>
>
> **
> See what's new at
> http://www.aol.com
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> Tango-L mailing list
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[Tango-L] Milongueros for Hire
Victor Bennetts wrote: ...it also makes me think that tango then becomes a bit like a fast food where you just order up your dance partner.> A trip to Buenos Aires is an investment of time and money. Few foreigners have the luxury of living six months in Buenos Aires--the time it takes to become known in the milongas. In the near future, there won't be any more milongueros. I can name a dozen who are in poor health and who no longer dance. Women who hire one of the many taxi dancers available have one partner for the afternoon or evening. The group of European women I mentioned had six different milongueros during four hours. They were all tall, slim women over 50 dancing with men 65-83. I saw smiles on all of their faces. I didn't have to ask if it was worth the money. They hired the same men for six nights. Their dancing probably improved as a result. They didn't have to deal with the cabeceo since the men were ready for every tanda. This week they will be going to the milongas alone and without arranged partners. I had to make five trips over three years before I danced with a milonguero. First-time visitors can hire a milonguero. Call it fast food or whatever you want. I call it the only way to dance with the best while they are still around. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
