Re: [Tango-L] On similes and such like...
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:31:19 -0400, you wrote: Mash: allow us to lead: OK: responsibility for direction: OK; decisions; OK. All nice and humble. But then we have ...lift you up and free you so that you can With all due rspect Mash, that doesn't sound very humble. How do you think it sounds to the ladies on this list who may be far better dancers than you with many more years of experience. And you're going to lift them up and free them. What is is it about Tango that makes regular, normal guys suddenly feel like mini-gods? No one has inferred mini-gods.., or anything even close.. But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. Leaders 'invite' the followers, or 'allow' them if you will, to the extent of the leaders imagination and ability.., to move and dance to the limit of *their* imagination and ability. To be as free as they can and wish to be.., but limited and governed by the leader's ability to bring it on. A good leader will 'free' them more than a poor leader. But no matter... The concept in itself is *not* derogatory. IMHO there is only one way to think about Tango and that is as a 100% equal partnership. And there's nothing equal about a musician and his Strad. At the end of of the day, the musician gets the glory and adulation while the Strad goes back into its box until needed again. Is that how we think of our partners? Iow, the Strad goes back to its table until the very next dance? :-) The applause was certainly meant for both, and everyone there knew it. The Maestro was better because of the Strad.., and the Strad just happens to be deaf. Partnership is the key-word. Neither is anything without the other. One gives the leads, the other takes the leads. No matter how anyone wants to put it as an individual, it still takes two to Tango and that's the way it's done. Tango is what the couple is out there for. Not to compete. Neither going for Alpha. With the Tango couple or the Maestro/Strad pairing, neither 'half' is the product. They work together to produce it. In any case, Tango allows people to have the freedom to express themselves. Driving laws were created to protect the weakest, oldest and most incapable of drivers so they're able to get behind a wheel and manage the road... Are we to control and censor Tango's expression to the point where the most sensitve of people can bring themselves to be a part of it? We need to stop trying to put Tango itself in a box. But that's not all... To me I do understand that society keeps women more in a 'cage' than a box.., and for most of the time. So much so that most women don't even realize how much they are restricted. But Tango is one of the few ways they can come out of it.Freely, safely, and vicariously sexual as women.It seems that people should try to enjoy it for what it is. Else we may end up with plain vanilla Tango..., and be plain vanilla people... ;-/ IMHO... Tango on... Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies.
Keith... I said the (auto) cross was contrary to Tango. I've no problems with how to lead one if it is to be led. The problem is that the lady often does a cross on her own.Actually it's not *really* a problem cause I expect them to... I live with it.But I do slip in side steps or other measure when I want to insure the lady does not cross., and I don't want to tell her not to.Still, that's the need that shouldn't be.., Tango wise.., no matter how nicely it's done. When I do lead one, it's with a clockwise torso jog. I dont like turning to the left which causes the follower to have to catch her balance to cross. To me it seems unecessarily disruptive to an otherwise peaceful walk.Those who do it I'm sure will say it's not a problem. It's no doubt just a perception on my part.., but the followers all seem to know my way too.., so I'll keep it. Or maybe they'd all do it anyway.., without my lead... :-) To me there's still another factor that makes the cross a 'convention' contrary to Tango. And not just the 'auto' part... It's taught to be done only when partners are outside right. Never, as one would expect in a truly improve dance, to be ok on either side. And as you say..., there are times when the lady may think she should cross when she doesn't get the right lead 'not to'? That sure sounds 'auto' and contrary to Tango to me. Then there's the line from another post... Unless she is a very basic beginner in the first month or so - and has just learned the cross. This doesn't sit very well either... I know it's done of course.., but when you come right down to it.., *why* is it done? The lady does not need to 'learn the cross' if she is never to cross by herself.., automatically.Was it said in the same sense as her needing to be taught all the moves she needs to know? Of course I'm hoping you don't say yes.., cause imho the lady has no moves at all to learn.Just single steps... So why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being led? With the style that one moves in Tango, the cross will then be able to happen by itself.., and only when led. She doesn't have to 'learn' it as such. Same with barrida, displacements, and similar single step moves... The women doesn't need to *learn* them... They should have no effect on her normal 1 of 3 steps. It is the leader's job to have his own two feet in place and, with the right timing, work to pull off any of these moves by himself. The lady just keeps walking... Nothing really different happened to her, did it? A barrida is simply a leader's embellishment and done entirely by the leader alone. Even the volcada, a single exagerated step cross. If the lady is over being surprized by tilts and other pheripheral distractions.., it hardly seems necessary to ever 'teach' her that move either. Oh well. I'm sure the cross will keep being taught, and done.., one way or another. :-) Cheers... Floyd On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:04:25 -0400, you wrote: Floyd, I don't understand this. Just this weekend, I was teaching a group the right-side walk in crossed feet. 1. Man LF side, 2. RF close and 3. LF fwd outside partner. The lady does 1. RF side, 2. LF close without weight, and 3. LF back. If, on 4. I then walk straight forward my RF will be in line with the ladies RF and we can continue with 5. LF fwd and to walk for as long as we want. However, if on 4. or any other RF fwd step, I step forward with my RF in front of my LF, I will lead the lady to the cross and transfer weight on 5. There should be nothing automatic about the cross. The man leads the lady to cross when he wants her to cross. The problem arises when the man gives mixed signals such as leaving her space for the cross but then not giving a definite lead to the cross. She might then be unsure about whether to cross or not. Depending on her training and experience in that situation some ladies will cross while others won't. If she chooses the option the man didn't intend, it's the man's fault, as always :-). Keith, HK On Fri Mar 28 23:52 , Floyd Baker sent: The 'auto' cross therefore flys in the face of the most fundamental Tango rule.., that every step be led. Not only does the lady do the cross on her own.., under circumstances she has been taught to 'remember' as the time to do it.., which goes against another basic tango concept..., it is also an un-led weight change... ?? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The subject that never dies.
the cross ... 's taught to be done only when partners are outside right. Never, as one would expect in a truly improve dance, to be ok on either side. Actually Floyd the cross has been taught (and learnt, and danced) on her right, her left, her right back, her left back, his right front, his left front, his right back and his left back. imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. True in real dancing, but a class with guys that haven't learned the moves, she does have to 'learn' them, else in practice they won't get done. Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours instructors that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being led? No reason at all... except it requires a teacher who is able and willing to lead the student. Same with barrida, displacements, and similar single step moves... The women doesn't need to *learn* them... Indeed she doesn't - for dancing. The only reason she might need to learn such moves is for the benefit of a guy who hasn't learnt them and/or an instructor who hasn't taught them. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dance and the Brain
DANCE AND THE BRAIN http://www.dana.org/news/publications/detail.aspx?id=10744 A critical outcome of our research is that learning by observing leads to action resonance and prediction that is the same as occurs with physical learning. This strong link between learning by doing and learning by observing at the neural level might benefit from early exposure to dance, where the consistencies between training methods could be acquired. THE DANCING BRAIN http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=2930 How can watching one dance performance, whether classical ballet or the newest modern choreography, be so engaging—even thrilling— and watching another leave us indifferent? Dutch choreographer and researcher Ivar Hagendoorn argues that contemporary neuroscience points at the answer. The limbs move, but it is the brain that dances. -- 'Mash London,UK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Mario [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alberto Dassieu y Eva Garlez are becoming two of my very favorite dancers. They sometimes dance together as in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpljPVhW6Gs Alberto is master of the Vals (not this video) and Eva has something very earthy and female that is amazing to watch.. This slow tango has lots of pauses...where the next move slowly builds.. They're not with the music. They're too busy with adornments. Contrast that with the following, danced to the same tango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v246c8wP6_0 Excessive pausing is not for social dancing. It clogs the line of dance. A pause of one or two beats, e.g., when changing direction from a suspension is OK. Prolonged pauses with excessive embellishment loses connection with the music (even Pugliese). Even in exhibition, pauses should be timed with the music. Pausing when dancing to Pugliese matches the pauses in the music. Ron - Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Closure of Nino Bien -- hopefully temporary
Hola List! Last week there were problems of papeles regarding the upstairs salon of Region Leonesa, where the milogas of Nino Bien on Thursdays, as well as others on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday are held. For now the salon is closed without any idea of when there will be a reopening. This is just to advise visitors to check on the status before going. It's a terrible shame, not only because many people are out of work, but because it's the best salon in Buenos Aires. http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15amp;ncid=aolhom000301) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses
Mario, A private lesson can give you a lot of detail on feel in this dance. So, when it is available to you, my advise it to put your chest on the chest of a very good dancer. Here's an example that might help you to believe what I am saying. I had signed up for a week-long series of privates in close embrace. There was something that I wasn't getting. It was quite a while ago. I think it was that I wasn't moving far enough forward so that she could complete her cross correctly. Anyway, she finally led me. WOW! In all the words that she could say, I wasn't getting it. It was a much stronger lead than I imagined. I had the same experience in a workshop led by a milonguero from BsAs. (I don't remember who). But, my partner dragged me over to him and said, Show him to the instructor. Again, wow, what a strong lead! And, again, all the words in the world weren't showing me. So, my advice is, now and then, when there is something having to do with feel, and you CAN find a good teacher to dance in close embrace with, do it! It works!!! By the way, I'm surprised all of the Basic-8 teachers haven't spoken up. In the basic pattern, the 2 and 5 positions are natural places to pause ... well, natural places to teach the pause. Your partner will appreciate it. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses
--- Tango Society of Central Illinois [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They're not with the music. They're too busy with adornments. This is a PERFORMANCE! And there is often a problem of sychronization with videos on YouTube. Excessive pausing is not for social dancing. It clogs the line of dance. A pause of one or two beats, e.g., when changing direction from a suspension is OK. Prolonged pauses with excessive embellishment loses connection with the music (even Pugliese). THIS IS A PERFORMANCE Did you notice 150 other couples on the floor? No. And did you correct Gavito when he paused for whole measures on the social dance floor? You WISH you could dance like those folksor do you prefer dancing with violins, too? Nancy Rito es la danza en tu vida y el tango que tu amas te quema en su llama de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The subject that never dies.
Floyd (Buffalo) wrote: imho the lady has no moves at all to learn. Chris (UK) responded: True in real dancing, but a class with guys that haven't learned the moves, she does have to 'learn' them, else in practice they won't get done. Unfortunately the prevalent class model greatly favours instructors that tell the girls to copy a move rather than teach the guys to lead it. Taken to an extreme, this seems to suggest a model in which the instruction for the men and women is conducted in separate groups--with the women learning to follow and the men learning the moves and how to lead the moves. For mixed group classes, generalized leading and following skills might be taught. Anything else runs the risk of women learning the follower's part (which is not the same as learning to follow) men learning the leader's part (which is not the same as the men learning the moves and how to lead them). Group classes conducted this way often rely heavily on memorized patterns with followers and leaders being taught their respective moves. In my opinion, it would be better for the leaders to learn the follower's moves. Then at least they would know what they were expected to lead. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] I'm starting to see the pauses
So why not teach followers the leads to follow instead of the 'move' being led? - Floyd This makes S MUCH sense to me! ..and that is why I quit taking classes...open embrace classes to be specific...they were basic correography classes..how to collude with your partner as she anticipates and back leads everything...in an oh-so-subtle way, of course. As I remember, there were three codes.. 1. woman crosses when the man takes two steps to outside right...and outside left?? nothing. 2. Starting a sequence with a forward step, lead always goes with the left foot. 3. Starting with a back step, lead always goes with the right. Lead was taught as a firm open frame. ... ..I decided to go with close embrace instead. ...I'm still trying to find someone to teach me to lead. - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross
I would like to know what is the benefit of leading vs. not leading the cross. My impression is that most people (both in Argentina and abroad) do not lead the cross. The woman automatically locks her left leg in front of her right one, (and puts her weight on that left foot), two steps after the man steps to her right. Women are taught to do this very early in her learning process. This means that the woman does not cross if the man walks in front of her or to her left. She does when he steps to her right. Sometimes he force a cross on different circumstances by slightly touching her leg with his leg. If the man walks to her right and wishes to prevent her from crossing (this is not frequent) he does so by placing his foot close to her right one so that she is deprived of that option. Most of us know how to lead the cross of course, but we only do that if absolutely necessary for some particular reason, otherwise we allow and expect , the woman to cross by default. If she does not do it (rare except beginners), then we lead her to do it. Summary: There are many ways to dance tango, this makes it more interesting. So you have two choices: lead or not to lead the cross... that's is the question. So I wonder what is the big deal about all this? ... To be or not to be. Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _ Pack up or back up–use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross
Okay, now that this discussion is quite nice and respectful of different views, let me put in my two centavos... Here is how I see those and related things. In principle, we dance tango with our bodies/torsos -- not with our legs or other parts (I hope you do not understand this as me saying that we leave those other parts at the table :-). So a leg moves as a result of the torso moving (or sometimes in preparation for a torso movement, mostly true for men -- although, even then the beginning of the movement is done my torso). The foot is placed at the optimal place on the floor so that a dynamic balance is maintained. In chest-to-chest embrace sort of dancing, the two torsos move as one. The initiation of the move is usually done by the man. The consequence of this paradigm is that the woman will (or has a good opportunity to) cross (the kind where her left leg ends up in front of the right, her left foot to the right of her right foot--although, the same holds true for all other cross situations) because her torso is moving in such a direction that makes it, the cross, the most comfortable and natural step. In that context, ultimately the cross step happens as a result of the invitation to cross and is not made because it is some kind of a rule. Of course, there are many variations on this theme. There is also much to be said about the energy (not only the kinetic kind) that a movement projects and is felt that also hopefully affects where the leg/foot goes. ...dubravko === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] [Tango-A] SA: Tango Therapy Congress
This is really cute! Not that tango is not therapy... Watching people dance and learn over the last 13 years, I would propose with some certainly that everyone gets therapized, one way or another, whether they want to or not :). And things do get worse before they get better, just as they sometimes do with more traditional forms of therapy. Neuroticism must be a side effect of the treatment. I assume they do not follow the principles of evidence-based practice... I wonder how they measure the outcomes :) Best, Nina At 04:38 PM 4/1/2008, Janis Kenyon wrote: The first international congress of Tango Therapy will be held July 17-19, 2008, in Rosario, Santa Fe, Argentina. Those of you who are health professionals may want to attend (and combine it time in the milongas). One speaker is from Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri. http://www.congresotangoterapia.com/ ___ Tango-A mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-a ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross
Sergio said: If the man walks to her right and wishes to prevent her from crossing ... he does so by placing his foot close to her right one so that she is deprived of that option. This highlights what I contend is the crux of the situation. If one does NOT do as Sergio said, that is, if the leader places his foot some distance to her right of her right foot, thereby allowing the cross, then this foot placement and the accompanying misalignment of the torsos constitutes a defacto lead. That is, if the follower's objective is to maintain connection by staying in front of her leader, and if he steps slightly wide on count 4, then the cross is the only step that she can do that will bring her back into alignment with him. That is, if she steps L back, she clearly pulls away from him, a fact which is usually evident after the fact to beginning followers who will feel the disconnection and (in a practice situation) will often comment, I missed the cross, didn't I? So to summarize, you can lead the cross with the torso windup and unwind, turning CW on 4 and returning CCW on 5, or you can keep your torso facing front and effectively lead the cross by placing your foot wide to your left of her right foot with no torso movement at all. J TangoMoments.com _ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross
If the cross is done automatically, without input from the man, other than being on her left for two steps, the woman completes a series of movements which we refer to as crossing. This precludes the introduction of variations which can occur during this simple move that actually consists of several parts. It is one example of the fact that while we say that tango is an improvised dance, in fact there are many prescribed series of steps which, once learned, become patterns that can be difficult break. Steve Sergio Vandekier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to know what is the benefit of leading vs. not leading the cross. Sergio Mar del Plata, Argentina _ Pack up or back up?use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] one step at a time
In case you missed it, here is Maria following and using the 'one step at a time' technique. ..can it get more beautiful, subtle and powerful than this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErmwG5IIe6kfeature=related - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not leading vs.leading the cross
I remember in classes, the discussions of leading versus automatic movement relative to the cross. But, as you mature, from the leader's point of view, there is no automatic cross. If you want her to cross, then you lead such that the path of her upper body suggests that the left foot should pass in front of the right. If you do not want her to cross, you lead with a strong enough intention so as to communicate to your follower that her foot should not cross. There is a gray area in between. That gray area is the automatic area for followers. They have been taught that it is (can be) automatic, so they, typically, choose to cross. That's fine. I DO think that a lot of leaders are thinking in terms of automatic and, therefore, aren't thinking in terms of clarity for the woman. So, to come around full circle, there shouldn't be any automatic thinking for the leader. There should only be the awareness that there is automatic thinking by the follower. And, even at that, automatic is a bad word. Doing what someone (a lot of people) called the protocol is a better way to put it. With all that said, it is still an improvised dance, an improvised dance where accurateness sure makes it so that the follower doesn't have to help the leader do his part by operating in automatic mode to cover for the leader who is leading with ambiguity! You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] On similes and such like...
On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:13:01 +0900, you wrote: allow us to lead: OK: responsibility for direction: OK; decisions; OK. All nice and humble. But then we have ...lift you up and free you so that you can With all due rspect Mash, that doesn't sound very humble. How do you think it sounds to the ladies on this list who may be far better dancers than you with many more years of experience. And you're going to lift them up and free them. What is is it about Tango that makes regular, normal guys suddenly feel like mini-gods? No one has inferred mini-gods.., or anything even close.. But leaders are needed.., else the ladies would be out there dancing by themselves. To whatever degree one 'accepts' it.., the ladies can do nothing on the Tango floor without a leader. Leaders 'invite' the followers, or 'allow' them if you will, to the extent of the leaders imagination and ability.., to move and dance to the limit of *their* imagination and ability. To be as free as they can and wish to be.., but limited and governed by the leader's ability to bring it on. As a matter of fact, Floyd, Mash's posting sounded better to me than yours. I don't know how Mash dances but your choice of words (being governed by the leader) proves that you are exactly what you just accused Mash of, feeling like a mini god. And dancing with guys who feel like God's gift to tango, in their own opinion, not the women's, is not as great as you think.. Some words do *grate* on some people don't they... g *Governors* FYI are various devices placed on trucks, trains, and other moving things that limit their full potential. Speed, gear shitfing, breaking, and so on. I'm saying.., and I thought I made it perfectly clear.., that the ladies are 'governed' (please read LIMITED), by their own ability *after* being LIMITED by the leaders ability. What DO you people want, anyway...? :-/ I, for one, do realise that, and dancing at a milonga with guys who behave as though they are at high school party, does not improve things at all. Like Huck said, they think, they just have to roll up with their souped up car in front of the girl's house and she will come running downstairs, because she has been chosen over some other tramp... I suggest then that people work on straightening out particular people, in person, as needed. And not bring it here to the list to people who do not deserve it. Just a thought.., eh? Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
