[Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #6: Social customs
Several years ago, somebody wrote on the list that you shouldn´t take photos or videos at milongas because some people don´t want to be seen with partners they aren´t married to. I thought this was strange but then the Argentine culture is different from the American culture. An Argentine man, who was in the States for three years and spoke good English (better than my Spanish) told me: I have a wife. I have a lover. I can´t take on any more women. I don´t remember how it came up in conversation because I wouldn´t think of asking. But based on his comment, the previous listing now makes sense. I just wonder where the man´s wife and lover are while he is dancing. Couples who have a private relationship and want to keep it private, enter the milonga separately and sit separately. They will not dance two consecutive tandas, which is common in the States. They will dance with other dancers before they return to each other. Why? The Argentines have behavior codes. One of them is not to dance with somebody else´s life partner. Men don´t use cabeceo with a woman sitting at a table with another man. If the Argentines think that two people are a couple, men won´t ask and women won´t accept an invitation. Cabeceo problem: Two men and a woman It´s not first come, first served. If the woman isn´t standing when you are in her proximity, start wondering if she accepted your invitation. If you see another man closing in, start wondering if you came in second place. I´ve been told that men will go to the men´s room if they came in second. But sometimes, the men´s room is in the opposite direction. Cabeceo problem: Two women and a man I´ve seen both women run back to their tables in embarrassment, sometimes letting out a shriek which only calls attention to the miscommunication. The man has to be quick to go after the woman he wanted to dance because it will look terrible for him. To ask one woman to dance, get two, and dance with NONE, that´s embarrassing, though regardless of size of ego, nobody seems to die from it. I´ll be posting a review of the milongas Í´ve attended and I hope others do the same. Dropping names of milongas, e.g. Canning, Sunderland, Almagro really doesn´t help. Back to line of dance If I was the only foreigner who was involved in collisions, I wouldn´t post to the list because it would advertise my poor dancing skills. When I see Argentines have collisions, well, that´s a different story. To clarify about my Gricel listing. I commented only on the difficulty of getting out from my table and meeting the woman on the floor. The host Thursday night was very pleasant and spoke English when I said ¨Soy Norteamericano. Espanol no esta prima idioma. (I´m a north American. Spanish isn´t my primary language.) I´ve gotten some private nasty messages, which I´ve decided to ignore. (One message came from an American who lives in BA. She used to live in the Bay Area in California, and has been banned from Tango L.). If you want to say I´m wrong, then you should publicly post and offer your personal experience instead of complaining about my dance skills. I took weekly, private lessons for 8 years and have been dancing for AT for about 11 years. I wouldn´t think of coming here unless I was confident of my skills. Dancing at Denver and Atlanta Tango Festivals was a test. Dancing at small dance floors in New York was a test. I´m not somebody who has 2 years of experience before coming to BA. But if you don´t believe me, COME HERE FOR YOURSELF! Reporting from Buenos Aires Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC -- I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Given that quite a few people on this list have also acknowledge the recent problems in BsAs, I think attacking Michael for his dance skills was unnecessary. That might well be true but I'm fairly confident in saying that Michael is the first, first-time visitor to BsAs to blame the Argentines for his problems in the milongas. I was recently there for 6 weeks and am full of admiration for the way the Argentines are able to dance comfortably in crowded conditions. It's what I'm seeking to emulate and I'm certainly not going to blame anyone else for the problems I encountered. Instead I took a lot of private lessons with Ana Maria Schapira. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Reports from Buenos Aires: Navigation et al.
Club Gricel has a long and narrow dance floor, the smallest width to length ratio of any milonga dance floor in Buenos Aires that I know of. The length of the floor can accommodate a lot of dancers in a moving line of dance; however there is less mobility in the narrow middle, so it is more likely that center-of-floor dancers will drift into the perimeter. As far as I've seen, Michael is correct in saying that, strictly speaking, there is only one line-of-dance in Bs As milongas that moves counter-clockwise along the perimeter of the floor. However, in contrast to what Michael has reported, I have never seen a clockwise moving center area. In my experience the center also generally moves more or less counter-clockwise, but with varying degrees of mobility, including couples who are stationary for the most part, and counter-clockwise progression may be less linear with passing of other couples possible if necessary. One will occasionally see some dancers moving clockwise or even in no particular direction. Michael commented that there is a line on the floor at Lo de Celia near the perimeter of the floor and, as I understood it, he suggested this demarcated the line of dance. I have never thought this was a traffic lane maker, nor that the porten~os needed it, especially in Lo de Celia, where the line of dance is pretty well respected. As I remember it, this line is not painted on the tile, but actually part of the tile pattern. In any case, from my recollection, this line is about 0.5 meters from the tables. The line demarcation is too narrow for a line-of-dance progression, because in actually the progression is not linear, but a progressive spiral. On a crowded floor it is necessary to turn most of the time; the skill is to orient these turns so that there is progression in a forward direction to keep up with the slowly but surely moving forward progression of the line of dance. Actually, in Bs As milongas, the line of dance generally progresses more rapidly and smoothly under the same floor density as would a typical progression at a US tango festival. With respect to porten~os having poor navigation skills, it is true that there are some who navigate poorly. In my experience milongas are more crowded on weekends (Fri-Sat-Sun), in part because some porten~os dance only or mostly on weekends, and collisions are more likely with more inexperienced dancers on more crowded floors. However, a general characteristic of porten~os who attend milongas regularly is that they learn to navigate. Foreigners who go to Buenos Aires often encounter a high floor density they have never experienced before. However, with generally better navigational skills and a truly progressing line of dance, navigation in Bs As milongas is typically easier than in US tango festivals with the same floor density. With respect to the decline in the quality of dancing in Buenos Aires milongas, I believe that is true. There are several contributing factors: - Older dancers with a lot of experience are no longer dancing - There are many porten~os leanring tango for the first time who are now attending milongas - More foreigners who have not learned the skills and codes of navigation are attending milongas Despite all of this, there is no better place to dance tango than in the milongas of Buenos Aires. I believe it is also correct to say that the quality of tango dancing in the US has deteriorated over the last several years. Ron ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Reports from Buenos Aires: Navigation et al.
Ron, enjoyed your perspective. Please expand on last comment: I believe it is also correct to say that the quality of tango dancing in the US has deteriorated over the last several years. From my limited experience here in Portland and a couple of other West Coast areas, I think dance skill is continuing to improve. At the same time there is currently a high influx of new dancers, which unavoidably bring down the community average skill level until they get more experience. But I'm interested in hearing why you think US tango quality has deteriorated. J _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates2_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com wrote: I was recently there for 6 weeks and am full of admiration for the way the Argentines are able to dance comfortably in crowded conditions. It's what I'm seeking to emulate and I'm certainly not going to blame anyone else for the problems I encountered. Your good experience doesn't preclude others from having different experiences, including Argentines. As Michael pointed out, there were Argentines arguing with each other. As I said before, MANY OTHERS have commented upon the worsening state of affairs, including Tom Stermitz, or perhaps none of them can navigate either. The Argentines are not saints, not even in tango. I'm looking forward to hearing more of Michael's experiences, even if it flies in the face of my own expectations. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
My vacation is coming to an end. Instead of just dropping names of milongas, I´m posting my review. Hopefully others will do the same. I. Lo de Celia The floor is square with a line that goes around the perimeter. The table set up is Men Women Women Men Couples are usually put in the back row. Florescent lights are over the dance floor. Colored lights are over the tables which causes dark spots and can make cabeceo difficult. Floor gets crowded quickly so standing in one place is not advised. One night, an Argentine pushed another Argentine to shut up and start dancing. 2. El Arranque I haven´t figured out the seating arrangement. Women are on the sides but then there are other women in the same column as men. You have to look around. To paraphrase the safety exercise on airlines Your closest partner may be behind you. Excellent lighting for cabeceo. Floor is sloped so ochos can be a problem going downhill because the woman will pick up speed with each pivot. Floor is rectangular but almost passes for being a square. There are raffle drawings for champagne and CDs. 3. Milonga de los Consagrados @ central region leonesa (This is the same location for Mi Refugio and Nino Bien The floor is rectangular and the lighting is good. Tables are perpendicular to the floor. I was there one night. It looks like the tables alternate between men and women. The vortex is a struggle because the floor gets jammed at the ends. 4. Gricel I´ve already written about. 5. Miscellaneous DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1 tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the pattern seems to be 4-1-4-1. 6.Milonga hopping I don´t see any value to going to different milongas during a short stay. When you keep returning to the same milongas, people will recognize you after a while. If you keep going to a new milonga every night, you´ll be a stranger every night. It´s completely different when you go with a partner versus going alone. 7: Identity Not a single Argentine woman I danced with thought I was an Argentine until they said something in Spanish and I said I´m not Argentine. Not related to tango Bring a camera and walk throughout the city. There are free walking tours (www.bafreetour.com) My friend, Gail from Florida, suggested I buy a digital camera. I´m glad I finished. Tomorrow is my last full day in the city. I fly home Wednesday, leaving the house @4:30 PM for my 8:25 pm flight to Miami arriving 4:30 AM. After going through customs and immigration, my connecting flight leaves at 8:40 for Washington, DC National Airport, arriving 11:05 AM. I should be home by 12:30 with my luggage and fond memories. I didn´t come to BA to eat, but to dance. I´ll post my summary tomorrow. I appreciate the public confirmation of what I´m writing. I´m not making this stuff up. And now a word about dancing. Two highly skilled dancers may not like dancing with each other. While skill is a big part, so is passion and musicality. Everybody has their own style. If somebody doesn´t like dancing with me, it can be because of my skill level or they don´t like my style. It´s the same about women. I melt with some women and for others it´s a cold experience. Some women can dance milonga and others have problems. I don´t what good it does to complain about somebody´s dancing on the list. There will NEVER be universal agreement on who is a good dancer. I don´t remember writing anything negative about the dancing skill of the women. My only complaint has been navigation. Reporting from Buenos Aires Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #4: Before you dance?
Sergio Vandekier wrote: To exchange money you may use banks, Casas de cambio (Cambio, or ATM machines. The ATM machine may charge a fee if you use cards from a different banck, it will not charge a fee if you use a branch of the bank that isued the card. (This is the same as at home). The fee charged sometimes is for each transaction even when you ask for your balance. I heard (I am not sure) the fee is anywhere from 2 to 8 dollars). I've never been charged a fee--in BsAs, Europe, Taiwan. In my limited experience the US is the only place where banks charges fees if you withdraw from another bank's ATM (which also charges a fee). If your bank charges Foreign Currency Transaction fees/Currency Exchange fees, find a different bank, at least for overseas travel. For transportation from the airport at Ezeiza you may go to the Ezeiza TAxi stand in the hall after you leave coustoms. It is a Blue and white stand and it has a board listing the fare to different areas of the city. If you use a porter for your luggage do not allow him to select the remis company as he most certainly will have a comission that will be charged to you. The usual transportation fee from Ezeiza to most places in town is 80 to 100 pesos (28 dollars). This includes the toll (less than 10 pesos). Although slightly more expensive, I'd like to put in a pitch for Dante Proaño http://www.dantesairporttransfers.hazedaze.com/. We've used him every trip, to from, makes arriving/departing more painless. Don ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
-- From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:41 AM To: Tango-L List Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review 3. Milonga de los Consagrados @ central region leonesa (This is the same location for Mi Refugio and Nino Bien And supposedly the place where the best-of-the-best porteneos are supposed to attend from the information a teacher told me. One lady of my group having a bit of stage fright due to the intimidation of the place and thus not dancing very well, was told to sit down less than 1 minute into the 1st dance. Tough crowd. They did play salsa; jive as a break from tango too. 5. Miscellaneous DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1 tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the pattern seems to be 4-1-4-1. Interesting that you say that as I recall it being around 3-1-3-1 . It is around 6-1-6-1 in some places in Australia. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
5. Miscellaneous DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1 tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the pattern seems to be 4-1-4-1. Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard either 2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended. Sorin my photography site: http://www.bostonphotographs.com my milonga review site: http://www.milongareview.com blog: http://sorinsblog.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5
Maybe, just maybe, like everywhere and everyone, there is a bell curve here... Are Argentines exempt because they are Argentine? No, I really don't think so... So, 10% are useless no hopers that even with lessons can't dance... Then 15% are beginners etc to 10% that are professional level and above. Is this possible? Why bother with all the rest? Really, they dance there more unless like teachers around the world, dance daily So, on average, they will be better but it's still a bell curve effect ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5#8207;
ARGENTINE DANCERS HAVING NAVIGATION PROBLEMS Of course they have them. Argentines are people too. They make mistakes, come in all levels of skill, and so on. It's idiotic to go to BsAs and expect perfection. LEVELS OF SKILL IN ARGENTINA The average level of skill in Argentina is lower than in the rest of the world. Tango is a truly popular dance there once more. Consider that there are 116 milongas per week within the 10-mile diameter of BsAs the city (as opposed to the much larger Gran Buenos Aires). That means perhaps 10,000 dancers in that small area, and the number might be several times that. This means lots of beginners or casual dancers who go to their local milonga just to be with friends and have fun, maybe meet somebody, not to have some grandly profound religious experience. It also includes many long-time dancers, milongueros and milongueras, who've been going to milongas for decades who are more interested in the music or social get-togethers than in becoming very proficient. Experience does not equal skill. DECREASING LEVEL OF SKILL That might be true. It goes along with increasing levels of popularity, in BsAs or in the rest of the world. Which means that it's all the more important for teachers and friends to let newbies know how important are the basics of dancing: line of dance, compact figures, simple figures, feeling the music, appreciating the embrace. Larry de Los Angeles http://ShapechangerTales.com Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsNDOdEiI6v6I7YhIaTvlATR3NPafVSTfdMciczteJcxZqOlK9pLBO/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
Fairly consistently in BA is the 2-1-2-1 approach. Even at a 'nuevo' milonga. However, at the nuevo milongas, they add in a single tanda of 'nuevo' music for 1 of the tango tandas every 2nd cycle if that is 1 cycle described... La Viruta, same cylcle, but they will play cylces of 6 songs in each tanda of music, best to know who you are dancing with then ;-) Not uncommon to not do the whole tanda there with one person, but still considered a bit rude to leave early. 5. Miscellaneous DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1 tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the pattern seems to be 4-1-4-1. Interesting that you say that as I recall it being around 3-1-3-1 . It is around 6-1-6-1 in some places in Australia. Well, I have never seen 6-1-6-1 in Australia, ever... The worst I have seen in Australia is an Italian 'Gent' that does not play consistent size tanda's and there could be up to 7 in a single tanda My worst experience was at this location.. 7 Vals 1 Milonga 6 Vals 2 Tango 7 Vals and so on This made it very difficult to ask ladies to dance and not appear to be a bastard when you get them up for Vals, then new lady for the Milonga then etc ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: So you basically made her self-conscious about her walk for the rest of the night. Not to mention that if she didn't cross, it may well be because the cross wasn't lead properly (or depending on your point of view, not-a-cross was lead but not on purpose)... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #6: Social customs
Several years ago, somebody wrote on the list that you shouldn?t take photos or videos at milongas because some people don?t want to be seen with partners they aren?t married to. I thought this was strange but then the Argentine culture is different from the American culture. Yes, I've seen this claim as well, and it's really quite ridiculous. The chances that a cheating couple are more likely to be found out by virtue of a photo taken by someone who lives in another country (this claim was made pre-Facebook and photo-sharing sites ...) than by the gossip mill of the milongas in Buenos Aires is rather far-fetched. But it is unquestionably annoying to go to a Milonga to dance and have flashes going off every few seconds. For a milonga with a lot of tourists, it is unavoidable since by definition it's a photo-op for the tourists. Why? The Argentines have behavior codes. One of them is not to dance with somebody else?s life partner. Men don?t use cabeceo with a woman sitting at a table with another man. If the Argentines think that two people are a couple, men won?t ask and women won?t accept an invitation. Yes and no. What you are referring to is the traditional rule that is not as rigidly followed. A more contemporary version would go something like this: - If it is a traditional Milonga (e.g., Lo de Celia), a couple coming in together and requesting a table together will usually be seated at the back along the wall and be out of cabeceo range anyway. A couple who want to dance with others will need to request some other seating arrangement that leaves them more accessible to cabeceo; - If a man and a woman are sitting together and gazing into each others eyes, or holding hands, or are obviously very much into each other, then regardless of how traditional the Milonga is, it would be inappropriate to ask the woman to dance, or try to, and you should certainly except a refusal (accompanied by an are you clueless or what? look) if you try. I would never ask a woman in this situation (in any country)--even if they were having an animated conversation, there is an implicit intimacy that would be rude to break. - If a man and a woman are seated together (regardless of whether they are a couple), and WISH to dance with others, they really need to signal with their body language that they are available (especially the woman). This means perhaps seating with the chairs angled slightly away from each other, chatting briefly while still looking outwards, etc. The man needs to help the woman appear available in this case as well by disconnecting from her somewhat so others know it is OK to invite her. This won't happen as much in traditional milongas like Lo de Celia (other than with non-Argentine couples, where the Argentine men will be only too happy to break their own rules to dance with her once they figure out that she's available while hypocritically commenting on how ungallant the man is by dancing with other women and letting his woman dance with other men). There are innumerable variations and ultimately it comes down to awareness and common sense. The jealousy factor is high in Argentina and neither one of a couple on a Milonga date will dance with others (close mutual friends excepted) EVEN IF THEY WANT TO, since they know there will be hell to pay later!! Expect these rules to continue to loosen and become more ambiguous with each passing year ... Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
