[Tango-L] Gricel
I was in Gricel the night Michael was there. It was crowded. This is a milonga well attended by locals and by regulars. It is rare to see people who normally do not come to this milonga. While some of us may not come every week, we know each other. There is navigation on this floor. Perhaps at times it may not be the best but it is there. This is Buenos Aires at its best. A tightly packed floor of dancers with hardly any room to move. There are several lines of dance and if you dance here regularly you know where to find them. If you are new to Buenos Aires and our milongas, I am sure it would seem like chaos. The center of the floor is for newbies. The outside is for more experienced dancers, the rest dance in the middle. When the floor is very crowded it sometimes seems impossible, but somehow the dancers always seem to find their way. The best dancers wait until the floor clears. They rarely dance before this. Only if a favorite dancer is going to leave or a favorite tanda is played. There were no fights at Gricel. I have no idea what he was talking about. In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual fight and that was in Niño Bien when a tourist got really drunk and started throwing chairs. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake a disgruntled attitude, They always smile and hug afterwards. Even when they do bump into each other and there are some faces and maybe an exchange of words there is never a fight. Perhaps Michael's lack of the language is the reason he thought the men were fighting. I have no idea how he could come to this conclusion. Fight in my opinion would mean loud yelling and fists and there was nothing like this at all. Nothing. For the record, Michael actually came to my table and asked me to dance. So much for his recognizing me and doing the cabaceo. He was shocked when I turned him down. He was actually dazed when I had to say no twice to him. He would not give up. I don't accept dances at the table from strangers. From my friends who know I want to dance with them yes. Of course Argentine women danced with him, where is he? It does not mean he is a good dancer, it only means he danced with Argentine women. We have lots of new people in our milongas and they will dance with foreigners. It is not like the old days or even when I first came here. People are interested in dancing with new people. Not all of us, but some of us. It depends on the milonga. It does not matter how many years one has danced. There are plenty of people here who have danced for 40 years that do not dance well. There are others who have danced for less than 5 who dance very nicely. I do think though it is very arrogant for someone to come here and judge the milongas based on North American criteria. I think it is also sad that he only went to a few milongas rather than to go others outside his barrio. I don't know what he was so afraid of. He was more at risk walking in his barrio late at night than taking a taxi. The worst thing that could have happened is that he would have been overcharged by 5 pesos - a whole whopping $1.35 USD. To come here and not experience the culture - the food - pizza, empanadas, parilla, and the many other things that Buenos Aires has to offer is sort of sad. This is a city that has so much. Buenos Aires is tango. When people say they think that North Americans dance better than Argentines? What your little feet are pointing better? You have more figures? The one thing you do not have is that you do not understand the music, the soul of tango. North Americans, generally speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically they dance without soul. Perhaps if Michael had come to Gricel and tried to enjoy himself instead of judging us on his North American values, he would have had a better time. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
Deby says : There were no fights at Gricel. I have no idea what he was talking about. In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual fight and that was in Niño Bien when a tourist got really drunk and started throwing chairs. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake a disgruntled attitude, They always smile and hug afterwards. It never ceases to amaze me how people not familiar with our culture can make all sort of misjudgments when visiting Argentina. My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life. There are perfect lines of flow in every milonga, you have to recognize them. It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. If you are unable to remain in the peripheral line, this is a sign that you are not used to dancing in very crowded floors. YOu try to start dancing in the periphery but soon you find yourself dancing-straggling in the center again and again. When we interact with each other we do it with much more physically expressive force than in other latitudes of the world, some visitors may think that we are arguing when in actuality we are just having an interesting, vivacious conversation. To joke is one of our national pastimes. We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :)) As to what Trini says, the standards of dancing have decreased in Buenos Aires, I think that this is a change in perception caused by the foreign dancer being more mature (dancing wise) now than a few years back. The quality of dancing has always been the same. Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas. Best regards, Sergio _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Para Los Ninos Tango Charity
John and Cheryl Lowry and friends in Brisbane, Australia began this charity work 9 years ago. They raise money in the tango world to make life better for homeless children in Buenos Aires. To me, it's such a great idea: have a milonga once a year in your city donating the proceeds to this cause and give something back and for Argentina's future. And then go visit the kids they support on your next trip to Argentina and share what you know with them as well in person. Really, I'd like you to hear John and Cheryl speak about it in their own voices; so I've made a 12 minute podcast in which they tell the story and give the picture. http://ToTANGO.net ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Fw: Gricel
I was at Gricel Thursday April 16. I'm surprised it took Deby one week to respond if she was actually there April 16. I danced at Lo de Celia which is also very crowded with navigation problems. At Gricel, I stayed on the outside. Just about everytime I did a molinete, there was somebody different behind me, which means that men were jumping in and out of the line of dance. I never wrote there was a fight at Gricel. I said two Argentines ARGUED. It didn't look good natured from the look of the partner of one of the men. She look absolutely embarrassed. Wrong, Deby. I didn't come to your table and ask you to dance. I don't know who went to your table, but it certainly wasn't me! I don't go to any woman's table and ask her to dance. I exclusively used cabeceo my entire stay. My ONLY comment about the Argentines was on their navigation skills and nothing else. The Argentines thought I was Argentine until I told them I wasn't. They spoke to me in Spanish and I told them in Spanish I was a NorthAmerican and that Spanish isn't my primary language. I wasn't afraid to go out of my barrio. I didn't want to go outside. Experience has proven that when the women see me at milongas in the barrio, they are more likely to accept my invitation. I don't see any reason to go to a lot of milongas and be a stranger at each one. At my last milonga, El Arranque, I danced eight tandas, which is a lot. I danced two REPEAT tandas with two women. One of them waved to me when I walked in to let me know she was there. Deby's attitude is similar to other people who didn't like my postings. Instead of offering corrections, like Shakruh on a woman declining an invitation, they just launch into ad hominen attacks in public and private emails. And Deby, I didn't have any trouble connecting with the women who wanted to connect with me. I've lost count because it doesn't matter. It's not a competition. Michael I danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Deby Novitz dnov...@lavidacondeby.com Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:19 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Gricel I was in Gricel the night Michael was there. It was crowded. This is a milonga well attended by locals and by regulars. It is rare to see people who normally do not come to this milonga. While some of us may not come every week, we know each other. There is navigation on this floor. Perhaps at times it may not be the best but it is there. This is Buenos Aires at its best. A tightly packed floor of dancers with hardly any room to move. There are several lines of dance and if you dance here regularly you know where to find them. If you are new to Buenos Aires and our milongas, I am sure it would seem like chaos. The center of the floor is for newbies. The outside is for more experienced dancers, the rest dance in the middle. When the floor is very crowded it sometimes seems impossible, but somehow the dancers always seem to find their way. There were no fights at Gricel. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake a disgruntled attitude, They always smile and hug afterwards. Even when they do bump into each other and there are some faces and maybe an exchange of words there is never a fight. For the record, Michael actually came to my table and asked me to dance. So much for his recognizing me and doing the cabaceo. He was shocked when I turned him down. I don't accept dances at the table from strangers. From my friends who know I want to dance with them yes. The one thing you do not have is that you do not understand the music, the soul of tango. North Americans, generally speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically they dance without soul. Perhaps if Michael had come to Gricel and tried to enjoy himself instead of judging us on his North American values, he would have had a better time. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gricel - Fights at the milongas
Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com wrote: My own experience is the same as Debby's, I do not remember ever seeing a fight at a milonga in my entire life. I've actually seen one (but only one). It was between a regular well-known dancer and teacher (whose name will be familiar to many, but which I shall not mention), and a younger man (also Argentine) who was attending milongas frequently at that time--a folkloric and tango dancer (and apparently a teacher)--and it was at Niño Bien. Those who were there will remember it well from this description, since it is not something one easily forgets precisely because it happens so infrequently (it was perhaps a couple of years ago). A flurry of punches were thrown and one of the parties was briefly on the floor (slipped, I think, rather than being knocked down). No serious physical damage was done (it was over in seconds as they were quickly separated), but it created quite a stir and certainly spoiled the mood of the milonga for the rest of the evening. I wasn't close enough to see what happened and no one else seemed to have either, but I don't doubt that it got started by one or the other inadvertently (or intentionally?) creating a navigation problem (real or imagined) for the other. We frequently simulate bumping into each other, we do it on purpose, and then give each other dirty looks, all part of a comedy. :)) Yes, but as often as not, it's a real dirty look. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's not (heck, they are usually BOTH giving each other dirty looks, and they can't both be right as to whose fault it was). I've been at the receiving and giving end of these (usually at the same time)--it's just a little harmless muscle/testosterone flexing and it's forgotten seconds later. But I cannot agree entirely with the following of Sergio's statements (and usually I find myself agreeing with almost *everything* that Sergio says!), unless they are very much narrowed in their context: It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. The quality of dancing has always been the same. Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas. Taking them one at a time: It is extremely unusual for a couple to disturb another while dancing, unless a lot of tourists are around. Taken literally, I agree. But it implies that it's ONLY the tourists causing this. You just have to go to La Viruta to realize that it is not. There are a lot of young beginning Argentine dancers there, and many of them seem to be oblivious to the presence of anyone else on the dance floor. But this is more related to the second point below (and there are a lot of tourists around at La Viruta, so technically it's still a true statement, but it's not just the tourists causing it). The quality of dancing has always been the same. Now the same as before, people understand that the milonga is not a place for beginners. Beginners belong in tango lessons and practicas but not in the milongas. Unfortunately, this is no longer true, unless you are restricting your observation to some traditional milongas. There are two reasons that this has eroded: 1. Yes, the presence of tourists. First of all, there may be people who are intermediate or even advanced in their home community but are beginners in Buenos Aires milongas though they haven't realized it (at least as far as navigation skills are concerned). Secondly, it is an unreasonable expectation that a tango enthusiast who has saved his vacation time and money to make a for-him special trip to Buenos Aires is going to accept the proposition that he should stay away from the mythical milongas of Shangri-la a.k.a. Buenos Aires that he has specially come for because he has only reached práctica eligibility in his skills. Maybe it should be that way, but it's not going to happen even if the person in question accepts the proposition (that milongas are just for those who already know how to dance well at milongas). The best one can hope for is increased sensitivity to the importance of floorcraft and the more crowded conditions. 2. The reduced importance amongst younger Argentines of the Milonga traditions, especially those that to them seem arbitrary and/or restrictive. One young Argentine woman I met at TangoCool práctica a couple of years ago (a regular and pretty good dancer) said that she hates all that nonsense of cabeceo and stuff ... it's so much better just to be direct and ask someone to dance! (loose translation). (I disagree with her, but that's not the point.) Another example: All my non-Tango dancing Argentine friends have heard about La Viruta (and it seems about no other milonga, except possibly Confiteria Ideal). It seems to be well known in Buenos Aires in non-Tango
Re: [Tango-L] La Viruta
Shahrukh, Just a little correction. When you pick up at La Viruta their weekly schedule ( a little handbill ) you would see that there are no milongas at La Viruta. I noticed that first in 2006. Specifically, Friday (Sat in fact) midnight till 5AM is a PRACTICA, The same for the next night. Midnight till 5AM is a practica. Could be that some other external publications list those nights as milongas but I consider the Viruta's own schedule as binding. Obviously, the management decided to accomodate the young generation that feels restricted by codigos. Ja ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review
-- From: Burnett, David david.burn...@cba.com.au Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:05 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review As I remember, when I was in BsAs 2 years ago the city council had just declared that the 2-1-2-1 pattern was part of what defined a Milonga. Tried Googling that law and could not find it. It would be good to see it in total as it may also then end arguments on what is or is not Argentine tango as defined by the home of tango. Anyone have an idea? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Paying my dues
I too considered myself an experienced AT dancer. But perhaps it was only my perception. Only a sojourn to the mecca of milongas would offer insight. Fortunately, I was briefed on what to expect, especially in regards to the neighborhood milongas. The elbows, the blocking and boxing-in (of the space, especially in the corners) only to be topped by a rather large alpha milonguero, timing his entry into my LOD, protruding his buttocks first to define his space, and then stopping to ease into the embrace in the middle of the song. After all, it was his neighborhood and his club, I was a visitor. It was an honourable challenge to how I would react. A challenge to any newcomer, gringo or one from another barrio. Handling these situations with humor and dignity without losing the feeling or rhythm of the song is what is expected, sort of like the fraternity hazing one would expect in college, but more importantly because you owe this grace to your Argentine partner. She knows what the guys are doing and she knows why, she accepted your cabeceo and you must not let her down. Although this is going on all around you, she must not feel your discomfort. Lose your cool and the whole world becomes chaotic. This to me is life - “Tango is life”, I believe Maria Nieves said. Pass the tests and you're welcomed warmly, it’s a wonderful real culture. Abrazos, Richard ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Before you travel to Argentina you could benefit by spending some time with Deby Novitz's often funny, often insightful online diary of her years there since 2004. And if you want an apartment for that time she has one in Palermo. http://tangospam.typepad.com/ http://www.lavidacondeby.com/Home/welcome.htm Deby writes --- To come here and not experience the culture - the food - pizza, empanadas, parilla, and the many other things that Buenos Aires has to offer is sort of sad. I have to agree (though understand that I'm not claiming that Michael did not). BsAs - indeed, Argentina - is a beautiful, fascinating place. It deserves for everyone to play tourist there, in a way that respects those around you. It would also be a good idea to learn enough Spanish before you go so that you can get acquainted with some of the people. Tango dancing there is wonderful, but the tango people there are wonderfuller. Well, many of them anyway! She also writes --- When people say they think that North Americans dance better than Argentines? What your little feet are pointing better? You have more figures? It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE. Perhaps this is comparing apples with oranges. I think it's more like comparing a huge barrel of apples someone randomly picked with a tiny basket of more carefully selected ones. Or maybe it IS apples vs. oranges. I broached this subject to an Argentine at Lo De Celia who had lived in Boston for many years. He was amused and said something like, You Americans! You take tango too serious. Loosen up! Tango is for fun. Deby also writes --- The one thing you do not have is that you do not understand the music, the soul of tango. North Americans, generally speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically they dance without soul. I agree with this, especially since Deby qualifies her statement as North Americans, GENERALLY SPEAKING... For I believe that there are plenty of exceptions to this description of non-Argentine tango dancers. That there are many, all over the world, who hear tango music and feel a deep intuitive connection to it and to what some pieces of it tries wordless to say, and to the dance which (when we are at our best) expresses those pieces of music. Surely others than Argentines can feel a deep sense of loss for a time or place or person forever lost? The joy of moving with the music and your partner and (if we are lucky) the others in the flow of dancers around the floor? The warmth of being with someone you like? The world- brightening breathless excitement of embracing someone you find attractive? I'm sure it works the other way. That there are many Argentines who hear the music and see the dance and are totally baffled and bored with what they see and hear. Just as there are many Americans who hear swing music and dancing, invented by (originally black) Americans, and are totally baffled and bored by it. Larry de Los Angeles - novelette Lady Death added to http://ShapechangerTales.com Click here for free information on how to reduce your debt by filing for bankruptcy. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/BLSrjnsKB0GAeRry9ssI0n9iiMSYSwB9bfvYO8HyljEI0KLzn2naqoVPFfS/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Gricel
Certainly I must agree with Debbie's and Sergio's descriptions of behaviour on the dancefloor, at least in the traditional milongas of Buenos Aires. In the 10 years I have been visiting Buenos Aires and dancing in those wonderful venues, adherence to the codes of the milonga have been fundamental in ensuring that everyone can have a good time, without interfering with others. However, I feel I should say that the one and only fight I ever witnessed at a milonga (last year) took place coincidentally at Gricel. And yes, loud yelling and fists were involved. Definitely not a lively and vivacious conversation, in fact it was rather ugly. The men had to be physically restrained, thus disrupting all the dancers for a while. And of course, the incident had a noticeable dampening effect on the mood of the milonga that night. The gentlemen in question were locals, one with a regular table in a prime position next to the pista. I feel this unusual incident didn't reflect so much on Gricel, because it was such an exception to the rule, but simply illustrated the fact that porteños are fallible human beings, too. Warm regards, Patricia Petronio Tango Salón Adelaide www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
