[Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does > not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for > dancing. I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect. Especially in cases like this. All we need is one person to report a Piazzolla track played for social dancing in Buenos Aires just the once, and the statement is made absurd. Given the number of Piazzolla pieces being re-used by other tango bands, it seems rather unlikely to me that Piazzolla is "never danced to socially in Buenos Aires". Unless perhaps, Mel thinks that Nuevo Tango (You know, that type of music that Piazzolla created) isn't "social dancing", which would be taking the common dismissive attitude to Nuevo shown around here to extremes. When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context. -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Carol Sheperd wrote: > As to whether or not Piazzolla wanted Piazzolla's music to be danced > to: it's common now for composers and musicians to avoid making > danceable music. The development of jazz made the individual > performers' improvisational explorations the raison d'etre of > contemporary music. A lot of musicians feel that accommodating > dancers constrains their creativity and limits their own > intellectual enjoyment of the live music experience. It also takes > the spotlight off them, the rest of the crowd always watches the > dancers rather than the stage. There is a lot of truth in Carol Shepherd's post about musicans and dancers, and basically agree with everything she said. I just want to add that I know a lot of jazz musicians who manage to survive by playing for weddings and dances. (I know plenty of "legit" players who do the same.) These gigs aren't blowing sessions. They might play some cocktail music, but there is also a demand for pop tunes and songs where people can dance waltz, fox trot, swing, etc. It depends on what the person who hired the bandleader asked for, and what the bandleader comes up with to make the attendees enjoy themselves. And musicians do love to see people dancing in these situations. It means they're doing their job. That's better than playing just background music. In other words, many jazz and classical musicians may have musical ambitions unrelated to dance music, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to play dance music. But I think that a problem with a lot of today's tango groups is that they don't have any idea what it means to play for dancing. (No offense. I respect the fact that they are playing live music. I just usually would rather that it not be at a milonga.) If a music ensemble plays Piazzolla at a milonga - for people to dance to and not as a concert break, I think it means that they just don't get it. It would be like playing, I don't know, Giant Steps, at a swing dance. Yeah, it's technically still swing music, but who can dance swing to it, really? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
David Thorn wrote: > It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I > can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard Piazzolla > played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but why > in the world would I ever want to?". It is an entirely different > thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially > danceable. Fair enough. Maybe you would agree, David, that Piazzolla's music is not well suited to the dance abilities and preferences of a very high majority of tango dancers? So, to play Piazzolla's music (whether as a DJ or as a perorming musician) for such dancers is to show that you are ignorant of dancer's abilities and preferences, or you want to challenge them. If I were hired to play for a milonga and if much more than one or two pieces were by Piazzolla, I would consider that I'd be making it just damned difficult for most of the dancers present to dance well and enjoy themselves. Except for the few theatrical/experimental/athletic types in attendance. I guess you could have a milonga where everyone is expecting to dance to Piazzolla. But even alternative milongas normally do not feature Piazzolla, he is that difficult. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
> You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as > "Piazolla's music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9; > it's a collection that encompasses many different styles of music. Yes, yes. Of course you are right, Alexei. My earlier statement was a huge generalization. I'm not sure I can make a generalization, but let me try again. The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance settings. Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think that it is bad judgment. Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that doesn't have a metronomic beat. A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance forms. These are worthwile points to consider. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Actually, Al and I heard Piazzolla make this statement at a lecture he gave in San Francisco on his second and last visit to this city. As I recall his exact words were "My music is not for dancing". I can't give the precise date (or year) without research but another friend, John Rolleri, was also in the audience. At that time many dancers were already using his music (played by other orchestras) for dancing in performance. However I still haven't heard Piazzolla played at traditional milongas. This is fact, not necessarily my opinion :-) Barbara, in SF temporarily > >When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for >dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context. > > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Piazzolla was, in fact, hostile to the idea of his music being used for dancing. (We are referring to the more contemporary side of Piazzolla, not the early arrangements he did for Troilo). I have never heard his music played by a DJ in a Bs As milonga. Sometimes smaller orchestras play his music and it is more often than not a disappointing experience for all. Neil ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Myk Dowling wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does
>> not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for
>> dancing.
>
> I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing
> lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect.
Especially when generalised to the absurd. There is quite some variability
in the music of Piazolla - 1955 "Bando" and "Preparense" are nothing like
the jazzy or classical music structure pieces that he later composed,
some of which are undeniably undanceable; others are obviously *written*
to be listened to although some people do seem to like to dance
to them ("Oblivion" is an obvious example that seems to be firmly
entrenched in the slow and more daring sets of the wee hours here).
And let's not forget that Piazzolla also composed some pieces when
he was working for Anibal Troilo -- should these also be deemed
"not tango" by contamination?
At what exact date did the tango Gods themselves cast a curse upon
the fruits of Piazolla's imagination? Is the soundtrack of
"Bólidos de acero" still tango?
Should Troilo also be damned by association?
It's obvious that Piazzolla himself did not see himself as *merely*
a composer of music for dancing, and it would be patently absurd to
claim he did.
But if you want to draw "conclusions" from this, you must clearly
learn how to form the negative of some boolean operators correctly
to avoid logical fallacies (in this case, illicit conversion, i.e.
the invalid inversion of a A- or O-type proposition.)
--
Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
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Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Alexis Cousein wrote: > But if you want to draw "conclusions" from this, you must clearly > learn how to form the negative of some boolean operators correctly > to avoid logical fallacies > "Dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter", also known in some variants as "proof by example" (just in case someone is still in doubt, that's not a valid form of proof). "Some swans I've seen are white, so all swans are white". "Some Piazzolla numbers I've heard are undanceable, so..." (left as an exercise to the reader). -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Piazzolla is never played at the traditional milongas. But... the traditional milongas are dying, along with the people to whom they meant something. Authentic Argentine tango is either dead, or will be soon We can't go home. Why try to build a shelter from a nuclear attack? Why would you want to survive?! To dance authentic Argentine tango, of course. Alone. What difference does it make what music is played at the milongas these days, since most people can't really dance to any of it? Piazzolla, D'Agostino - different temperamentally and equally complicated. So who cares what is being played?! And many are just projecting their own fantasy of the past, having heard all about it. One can waste a lifetime sitting there in the milongas in BsAs or any place else in anticipation of a glorious tanda, which never arrives, or if arrives, in anticipation of a glorious partner for the next tanda, or, if that does not happen, in anticipation of another milonga the next day. Piazzolla is bad if one can't dance to it. So is D'Arienzo and all the rest, so it might as well be Piazzolla. I say, to hell with the rules if they have no meaning. When men and women have stopped being men and women and became amoebas ready to dance to anything in any role, why try to save anything? You can't play a game where the players don't agree on the rules. And now I will go and swallow some anti-sarcasm drugs. Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Piazzolla is socially danceable, but only by dancers with a deep knowledge of music and very high skill levels. I've seen a couple of couples do it well. You both have to have very high level lead and follow skills. You have to be very familiar with the particular piece of music from listening to it a lot. You have to have a lot of experience dancing with that partner. And you have music experience at the level of someone who is a musician, and you need to be very improvisational. I personally have met around a dozen dancers who have this. As to whether or not Piazzolla wanted Piazzolla's music to be danced to: it's common now for composers and musicians to avoid making danceable music. The development of jazz made the individual performers' improvisational explorations the raison d'etre of contemporary music. A lot of musicians feel that accommodating dancers constrains their creativity and limits their own intellectual enjoyment of the live music experience. It also takes the spotlight off them, the rest of the crowd always watches the dancers rather than the stage. Not all musicians feel this way. In 2003 the Roger Humphries Big Band stood up after their first set and put down their horns and gave a ballroom full of dancers a standing ovation. The speaker for the band had been a young musician in the 40's in New York when the music was originally composed. He said that he was overcome with nostalgia -- they had all forgotten what it was like to see the music of Ellington and Count Basie alive rather than dead. His approximate words were "we want to thank you because without a roomful of dancers we forget how alive this music is. You are listening to us and anticipating how we are going to play, and we are listening to you by watching you. It's as if we are watching ourselves. You are changing how we play and how we want to play in the next minute. We are not playing to you, we are playing with you, and you are playing with us. It's as if the music came out of our horns and got feet and a mind of its own and is moving around the dance floor teasing us to run after it." Myk Dowling wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Dancing to Piazzolla (never danced to socially in Buenos Aires) does >> not make it tango. Piazzolla himself said he did not compose music for >> dancing. > > I'm always amused when people make definitive statements on mailing > lists. They are nearly invariably incorrect. Especially in cases like > this. All we need is one person to report a Piazzolla track played for > social dancing in Buenos Aires just the once, and the statement is made > absurd. > > Given the number of Piazzolla pieces being re-used by other tango bands, > it seems rather unlikely to me that Piazzolla is "never danced to > socially in Buenos Aires". > > Unless perhaps, Mel thinks that Nuevo Tango (You know, that type of > music that Piazzolla created) isn't "social dancing", which would be > taking the common dismissive attitude to Nuevo shown around here to > extremes. > > When exactly did Piazzolla say that he "did not compose music for > dancing"? I'd love to see the actual quote, particularly in context. > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.biz/blog ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
> But I think that a problem with a lot of today's tango > groups is that they don't have any idea what it means to play for > dancing. I think the problem of musicians not having an idea of what it is like to play for dancers is less and less of an issue every year. I have not really encountered that problem, though that doesn't mean I like everything every live band plays. Heck, I don't like all of the Golden Age stuff, either. If a community wants to develop their live music scene, then a great way to go, I think, is through the music departments of the local universities. Actually, three of the four local groups here started pretty independently with graduate students at one university who were introduced to tango by one means or another. Most of the musicians had jazz and classical backgrounds. All have been very receptive to feedback as to how danceable their music is. They are always excited to see how dancers react to their music. When they do play something that is undanceable, they are always aware of it and will introduce the piece differently. Personally, I'm excited by the changes I've seen in the live tango scene over the past few years. It's something to celebrate. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
When men and women have stopped being men and women and became amoebas ready to dance to anything in any role, why try to save anything? You can't play a game where the players don't agree on the rules. And now I will go and swallow some anti-sarcasm drugs. Nina While I appreciate Nina's sarcasm, I'll bite, since this is a bit in line with the lead or follow? of another thread. "It is now true that traditional diifferentiation between male nd female roles in society are changing. Dance as a reflection of society, incorporates those changes...But the average anatomical differences between men and women remainthe man uses his strength to provide support and the woman uses her shape and flexibilty to show a graceful line. When partnered dance removes the constraints of that traditional style, the movements are likely to be quite different..." Kenneth Laws in "Physics and the Art of Dance" Also note that country western dance has been much more resistant to gender role swapping. In fact it is practically non existant. Yee Haw, conservatives! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: > It would be like playing, I don't know, Giant Steps, at a swing dance. Indeed. Giant Steps is 290BPM and not difficult for a decent Balboa dancer (but nearly impossible for any but the most spectacular Lindy Hopper). However, even most Balboa dancers would turn up their noses at Giant Steps for reasons similar to those that cause many Tango dancers to call Piazzolla "undanceable". I.e. - Many dancers do not have the skill to dance to Piazzolla (or Coltrane) because they don't listen to or dance to them. If your tango dance life revolves around the Golden Age, you might never acquire either the requisite listening or dance skills to dance to Piazzolla. Many swing dancers don't like the relative complexity of Coltrane or any of the other bop or post bop jazz musicians (they need that "4-on the floor" beat of the swing era), just as many Tango dancers don't like the relative complexity of Piazzolla (they need the strong 1 and 3 walking beat). As Mr. Fox said regarding Oblivion - Where's the Beat? On the other hand, if you were to spend a few months dancing exclusively to Piazzolla (Coltrane), you might acquire those skills. It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but why in the world would I ever want to?". It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that Piazzolla is not socially danceable. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
David Thorn wrote: > It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't > dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard > Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but > why in the world would I ever want to?". > > It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that > Piazzolla is not socially danceable. I've certainly often heard Piazzolla played at Milongas in Australia, and I've danced to it myself. It's not the easiest music to dance to, but when you get accustomed to it, it can make for a beautiful dance experience. I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder? -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: > Maybe you would agree, David, that Piazzolla's music is not well > suited to the dance abilities and preferences of a very high majority > of tango dancers? > You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as "Piazolla's music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9; it's a collection that encompasses many different styles of music. Do I agree that "Adios Noniño" played by a symphony orchestra isn't really dance music? Yes. Some other pieces of music are danceable, period, and it doesn't take rocket science to dance them. For some others, it all depends on context, and it takes a good DJ to appreciate context. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place. Maybe Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no place else.:) So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc. Instead of other fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango Australian style", etc. :) Nina At 04:40 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: >I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my >partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into >anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder? > >-- >Myk Dowling >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: > The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- > garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which > was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be > difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance > settings. No argument from me. But is something like "Bando" or "Preparense" (1955) "nuevo" in this context? Is something like Milonga del Angel "nuevo" in this context? Is "Oblivion" (if you'll excuse the very British expression, the closest tango thing there is to the proverbial smooch dance music at parties)? You'll probably find as many opinions as people expressing them (except from the bulk of staunch guardians of orthodoxy espousing simple views like Piazzolla != danceable). > Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically > very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is > published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often > hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think > that it is bad judgment. No argument from me. Besides, I know many tango ensembles who make arrangements of non-Piazzolla numbers so obviously tuned to a listening audience that they also become undanceable. There are many ensembles (outside of Argentina) without a *really* good feel for playing for a dance audience, not only because it requires quite a bit of unusual humility. > > Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that > most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that > doesn't have a metronomic beat. > That, too. People who dance to beautiful tango as if there were a fat Nubian slave beating the drum on a Roman galley instead of tango music (without ever dancing on the fast beat) make me sad almost as much as people really misinterpreting Piazzolla. I just saw some couples on US TV yesterday with absolutely *no* musicality in their movements, and while they were extremely elegant in their movement, it was obvious they didn't have a clue about what tango is all about -- none of that jazz, if you'll forgive the pun. There is tons of music that has a "metronomic beat" that doesn't require you to dance *only* to the basic 2/4 beat. Picking the instrument you're tracking while you're dancing, and jumping between the jungle of melodic lines, is one of the real pleasures of tango (as is watching other people doing it). > A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think > that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to > newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance > forms. > Good tango dancers have been capable of showing extraordinary abilities to adapt, even within traditional tango. I don't think the good dancers to traditional music are the ones who can't dance to something a bit more adventurous (though some don't see the point, and that's their god-given right). It's just that the somewhat less good tango dancers only able to dance to *just* the simple beat or really uncreative at interpretation are made more aware of their limitations when they can't fall back on the metronome. And some resent that with a vengeance. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
