Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
Why are dancers outside Argentina so interested in learning these moves that are not recognized as acceptable social dancing in Buenos Aires?" If more people went to Buenos Aires, observed how porten~os dance at the milongas, perhaps all the workshops outside Argentina teaching ganchos, boleos, volcadas, colgadas and the like would be empty. I am extremely confused by your post. Are you suggesting that the only dance "real tango" dancers would/should want to learn is "Tango Clasico"? Do you think that my knowledge that portenos do not do ganchos, boleos, volcadas, colgadas etc. lessens their interest to me and others of the Nuevo persuasion? Should we eject Fabian and his ilk from the world of "real tango" dancers? I honestly don't get what you are trying to say. As to why dancers are interested in these moves, I can only speak for myself and my partner. We very much enjoy the athleticism and intellectual aspects of these moves. Our connection is, although certainly different from that in Milonguero style, at least as strong and enjoyable. What don't you get about this? And contrary to what some on this list appear to believe, these moves are not necessarily for show. In public, my partner & I dance whatever appears appropriate, including strict close embrace as taught to us by a dedicated student and former partner of one of the better known portenos (since passed) from whom we take private lessons two to four hours every month. In private, because it is athletic, very closely connected and hugely fun, we dance more of a Nuevo style. We do NOT do this as a show dance. Many people who never perform and never intend to still learn and practice ballet, Tai Chi and other forms of movement. What ARE you saying? D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
On 12/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Why are dancers outside Argentina so interested in learning these > moves > > that are not recognized as acceptable social dancing in Buenos Aires?" If > > more people went to Buenos Aires, observed how porten~os dance at the > > milongas, perhaps all the workshops outside Argentina teaching ganchos, > > boleos, volcadas, colgadas and the like would be empty. > > > > > > I am extremely confused by your post. Are you suggesting that the only > dance "real tango" dancers would/should want to learn is "Tango Clasico"? > Do you think that my knowledge that portenos do not do ganchos, boleos, > volcadas, colgadas etc. lessens their interest to me and others of the Nuevo > persuasion? Should we eject Fabian and his ilk from the world of "real > tango" dancers? I honestly don't get what you are trying to say. > There should be no confusion. Tango Nuevo is not danced at milongas in Buenos Aires. Thus, it is not social Argentine tango. Outside Argentina, Tango Nuevo is commonly danced socially at milongas. There is a misrepresentation of tango culture here. if you want to create a new social tango dance form, at least label it differently (i.e., Tango Nuevo) so that people know what to expect. This is not the first time in history tango has been misrepresented in its migration to another cultural background. This happened about 100 years again with the creation of ballroom tango. Here we go again. As to why dancers are interested in these moves, I can only speak for > myself and my partner. We very much enjoy the athleticism and intellectual > aspects of these moves. Our connection is, although certainly different > from that in Milonguero style, at least as strong and enjoyable. What don't > you get about this? > What don't you get about representating tango culture accurately in milongas outside Argentina? Social Argentine Tango is not about athleticism or even intellectualism. Even improvisation is not something that is planned intellectually; it comes out of you at the moment, without forethought. The music and the floor space determine the possibilities. Social Argentine Tango is about connection with partner and music and the emotion that is aroused in that connection. That is its unique beauty. However, outside Argentina dancers see tango as steps. Somebody missed the train. And contrary to what some on this list appear to believe, these moves are > not necessarily for show. > And they are not suitable for milongas in Buenos Aires. If you change that, you are redefining the customs of social tango, and it is no longer genuinely Argentine. Ron > > D. > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
To difuse this a bit ... How do you make money in tango? Give what people want! The trick to filling your classroom AND keep them coming is to keep the attention of the intermediate and advanced leaders. Any teacher knows that! Intermediate dancers want to learn tricks and patterns. (This is only my observation. This is a genaralization. This is not meant to offend anyone!) So, if you are a visiting teacher, you had better be known for teaching "cool moves"! America is a capitalist society. People show up with their money and those with the most interesting *stuff* reap the benefits. Have you noticed that the largest, most successful classes have the attention of the intemediate leaders? Look, if you have a beginner class under your belt, where do you go from there? Do you go to the class of the teacher who is teaching [ technique, patterns, etc ]? No. It doesn't matter, as much, what the teacher is teaching. It matters where you can dance with non-beginners. I mean to say that it matters less whether the teacher is the better teacher. It matters more whether you can dance with people who are better than you. You want to get better at basketball? Play with people who are better than you. Etc. Ummm, and, of course, get a good teacher. So, again, how do you have success as a teacher of tango classes? Fill your room! How do you do that? Create a society! People come to classes, repeatedly because they feel comfortable. It's a society. So, if you are smart, you are going to provide whatever it is that will pay for that room and give you a little extra. Keep the interest of those intermediate, and advanced-intermediate, leaders! It is my honest opinion that you keep their attention by giving them something to show off. Patterns! (Trust me. I get bored teaching patterns. I like to see technique advancement. Give them darn leaders followers' technique classes! but, that's beside the point!) Another point ... Even the women who KNOW that they don't lead ganchos in BsAs still ask me to lead ganchos. So, that is my take on what happens in America. Anyone care to elaborate on the BsAs milongas where the younger Argentines go? Tango Society of Central Illinois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 12/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Why are dancers outside Argentina so interested in learning these moves > > that are not recognized as acceptable social dancing in Buenos Aires?" If > > more people went to Buenos Aires, observed how porten~os dance at the > > milongas, perhaps all the workshops outside Argentina teaching ganchos, > > boleos, volcadas, colgadas and the like would be empty. > > > > > > I am extremely confused by your post. Are you suggesting that the only > dance "real tango" dancers would/should want to learn is "Tango Clasico"? > Do you think that my knowledge that portenos do not do ganchos, boleos, > volcadas, colgadas etc. lessens their interest to me and others of the Nuevo > persuasion? Should we eject Fabian and his ilk from the world of "real > tango" dancers? I honestly don't get what you are trying to say. > There should be no confusion. Tango Nuevo is not danced at milongas in Buenos Aires. Thus, it is not social Argentine tango. Outside Argentina, Tango Nuevo is commonly danced socially at milongas. There is a misrepresentation of tango culture here. if you want to create a new social tango dance form, at least label it differently (i.e., Tango Nuevo) so that people know what to expect. This is not the first time in history tango has been misrepresented in its migration to another cultural background. This happened about 100 years again with the creation of ballroom tango. Here we go again. As to why dancers are interested in these moves, I can only speak for > myself and my partner. We very much enjoy the athleticism and intellectual > aspects of these moves. Our connection is, although certainly different > from that in Milonguero style, at least as strong and enjoyable. What don't > you get about this? > What don't you get about representating tango culture accurately in milongas outside Argentina? Social Argentine Tango is not about athleticism or even intellectualism. Even improvisation is not something that is planned intellectually; it comes out of you at the moment, without forethought. The music and the floor space determine the possibilities. Social Argentine Tango is about connection with partner and music and the emotion that is aroused in that connection. That is its unique beauty. However, outside Argentina dancers see tango as steps. Somebody missed the train. And contrary to what some on this list appear to believe, these moves are > not necessarily for show. > And they are not suitable for milongas in Buenos Aires. If you change that, you are redefining the customs of social tango, and it is no longer genuinely Argentine. Ron > > D. > >
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:51 PM, "Tango For Her" wrote: > To difuse this a bit ... > > How do you make money in tango? Give what people want! The trick > to filling your classroom AND keep them coming is to keep the > attention of the intermediate and advanced leaders. Any teacher > knows that! > > Intermediate dancers want to learn tricks and patterns. (This is > only my observation. This is a genaralization. This is not meant > to offend anyone!) So, if you are a visiting teacher, you had > better be known for teaching "cool moves"! How do you make money in tango? Get students to take lot of privates. How do you get them to take privates? Teach really complicated figures that they can't learn in class. How do you get lots of privates? Focus on the women, as they are more willing to take privates. How do you get big classes? Follow the ballroom studio strategy, and create a vertical community: Classes, privates, dances under one roof. How do you keep them from going elsewhere? Teach them things that only work within your own circe. I prefer a different value: How do you build community? (1) Teach material that is accessible to a wide audience, not just the young or athletic. (2) Make sure the guys leave successful from each group class. (3) Work to build the wider community, not just your own milonga. (4) Do field trips with your students to the community milongas. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
Bored now call your events whatever you like, but please don't generalize about the "milongas in buenos aires." What you find hear depends entirely on where you look, and there are so many places to look. The scene here seems to become increasingly varied (well thats my perspective, based on where I'm looking) > > > Social Argentine Tango is about connection with partner and music > and the > emotion that is aroused in that connection. That is its unique beauty. > However, outside Argentina dancers see tango as steps. Somebody > missed the > train. > Now here's something exciting. I'm noticing a number of really young dancers in Buenos Aires dancing in a very energetic close embrace, beautifully musical, extended vocabulary that includes many of the elements on the "forbidden" list, and immensely popular at milongas like el beso (which I presume is on the "approved list" - of course it would depend on which night.) You've said it yourself: "its not about the steps," and some dancers are able to find and express the beautiful aspects of the social dance material with movements that are not on your list. Do you exclude these dancers from the true tango? Does it matter that they are living, dancing, learning in Buenos Aires, should it matter? > > And they are not suitable for milongas in Buenos Aires. If you > change that, > you are redefining the customs of social tango, and it is no longer > genuinely Argentine. > ?Which Milongas in Buenos Aires? ?trying to (re)define the customs of social tango is that exactly what you are doing? ?Genuinely Argetine? is tango as it exists now genuinely argentine? would it better or worse if it was? does it matter? I believe as a group we tangueros can get a bit stuck on what happens in Buenos Aires (I'm no exception). Perhaps its more important what happens in our home towns and how our efforts support, or detract from the enjoyment of our shared experience of tango. I just don't see the advantage of this "truth-in-advertising" angle on segregation. First because the "truth" in this case is contentious, and second because I'm not convinced the division is helpful for anyone. just another perspective respectfully, Korey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
Intermediate dancers want to learn tricks and patterns. (This is only my observation. This is a genaralization. This is not meant to offend anyone!) Social Argentine Tango is about connection with partner and music and the emotion that is aroused in that connection. That is its unique beauty. However, outside Argentina dancers see tango as steps. Somebody missed the train. I am not offended :-). But I did interpret these, and other comments occasionally seen on the list, as implying that a fair portion of what happens in the Nuevo dance is a trick or pattern. I don't see a Volcada, for example as being any more of a step or trick or pattern than, say, an ocho cortada. Both are led, you can stop either one at any point and unwind the move, modify what happens next etc. Some leads and some follows may interpret either as a step or pattern, but that is just because they are not leading or following. I, and most that I know who dance Nuevo moves, try to use the "forbidden list" musically, in concert with partner and music and emotions. I think that you do us a disservice by claiming that just because the steps are not danced by the portenos, they are not musical, etc. I also believe that, for many although perhaps not you, an intellectual connection to your partner and the music can have all the emotional depth, or more, of a non-intellectual connection. D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Don't blame your follower ...keys & Clasico vs. Nuevo
Nuevo tango is cool. I, myself, found incredible success in soft tango. So, I try to pass along as much as I can. I observed that teachers that go out and find complicated patterns have that added component that I believe it takes to keep the longterm attention of leaders. I didn't say it was bad. I was just commenting on what I see as the trend in the United States. Nuevo tango is one hell of alot of fun!!! And, by the way, when you include the exchange of lead and follow in Nuevo tango, then, you fall much more into the realm of mastering followers' technique than mastering patterns! And, THAT, in my book, is something that really benefits a leader! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Intermediate dancers want to learn tricks and patterns. (This is only my observation. This is a genaralization. This is not meant to offend anyone!) Social Argentine Tango is about connection with partner and music and the emotion that is aroused in that connection. That is its unique beauty. However, outside Argentina dancers see tango as steps. Somebody missed the train. I am not offended :-). But I did interpret these, and other comments occasionally seen on the list, as implying that a fair portion of what happens in the Nuevo dance is a trick or pattern. I don't see a Volcada, for example as being any more of a step or trick or pattern than, say, an ocho cortada. Both are led, you can stop either one at any point and unwind the move, modify what happens next etc. Some leads and some follows may interpret either as a step or pattern, but that is just because they are not leading or following. I, and most that I know who dance Nuevo moves, try to use the "forbidden list" musically, in concert with partner and music and emotions. I think that you do us a disservice by claiming that just because the steps are not danced by the portenos, they are not musical, etc. I also believe that, for many although perhaps not you, an intellectual connection to your partner and the music can have all the emotional depth, or more, of a non-intellectual connection. D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
