Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Chris, UK wrote: > I'm surprised that knowing the name of the orchestra is either necessary > or sufficient to decide whether you'll enjoy the music. And I can pride myself into making even the most staunch of traditionalist dance to *more than one* orchestra in a tanda (even though most would heap abuse on my heresy -- and some have -- on a list like this). Conventions are OK. To cast them in concrete and make absolute dogmas out of them is dangerous - next you'll be turning Argentine tango into a stuffed animal rather than a living and breathing organism. Respect for tradition is something different from slavish following of it. It's also possible to respect the spirit of a tradition without respecting all of its forms, certainly if the social environment around the tradition has mutated. '40s tango is a very different animal from '20s tango. I have no doubt that at the time there were heated debates about whether it was still "true" tango, but I'd hate to miss those '40s tango in a milonga. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
i am slow. are you agreeing that since "something" (a dance) contains the moves, customs, and behaviors of tango, that it is tango? or disagreeing, asserting that since "something" (a dance) does not contain "tango music" that it can not be tango? i see both answers in the proximate causation definition The Tangonista Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 23:47:00 + > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: Tango-L@mit.edu > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it? > >> there are identifiable moves, customs and behaviors. it is these things >> that make it tango, not necessarily the music. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_causation > > -- > Chris > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Oops. I meant it was a Pugliese (not Piazzola) class. - t --- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- meaning of life <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > i think that tango is about spirit and intent, there > are > > identifiable moves, customs and behaviors. it is these > > things that make it tango, not necessarily the music. > > Suppose there is no music at all? Just you and your > partner, the lights dimmed, in an embrace flowing from > one > movement to the next, forming your own musicality through > your tango conversation? Your focus completely on the > other person. The beats might be silent, but they are > still there, perhaps as part of your muscle memory but > still present. Isn't that the essence of tango? > > At the heart of musicality, I think, is the expression of > emotion. And people can respond to music differently. > In > a musicality class on Piazzolla that we had recently with > Andres & Meredith Amarilla, Andres used an interesting > phrase in evaluating each couple's interpretation of part > of a song. He would say "You haven't convinced me" or > "I'm > convinced". He never said that this was good/bad or > unmusical/musical. I liked that phrase because it > acknowledged that both the dancers and the audience have > their own musical interpretation. This phrasing could > also > be used within the couple, as well. > > As for those who say that musicality classes are > useless... > well... I'm not convinced. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most > popular social dance! > http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
> there are identifiable moves, customs and behaviors. it is these things > that make it tango, not necessarily the music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_causation -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
--- meaning of life <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i think that tango is about spirit and intent, there are > identifiable moves, customs and behaviors. it is these > things that make it tango, not necessarily the music. Suppose there is no music at all? Just you and your partner, the lights dimmed, in an embrace flowing from one movement to the next, forming your own musicality through your tango conversation? Your focus completely on the other person. The beats might be silent, but they are still there, perhaps as part of your muscle memory but still present. Isn't that the essence of tango? At the heart of musicality, I think, is the expression of emotion. And people can respond to music differently. In a musicality class on Piazzolla that we had recently with Andres & Meredith Amarilla, Andres used an interesting phrase in evaluating each couple's interpretation of part of a song. He would say "You haven't convinced me" or "I'm convinced". He never said that this was good/bad or unmusical/musical. I liked that phrase because it acknowledged that both the dancers and the audience have their own musical interpretation. This phrasing could also be used within the couple, as well. As for those who say that musicality classes are useless... well... I'm not convinced. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
please, no flame war! why do some believe that you are only "doing tango" if it is done to "tango music"? first, what is "tango music"? does it have to be pre 50's music from argentina that includes a bandeon? what if the music comes from another country? what if it is "post 50's"? what if it has electronics or drums, does that invalidate it being tango music? isn't tango the dance of the "people"? weren't many of the dances played by local "pickup bands" just like the folk dance music of the u.s.? don't you think the bands played "fun stuff" and the dancers danced to it and everyone laughed and danced if it was danceable and booed and threw vegetables if it sucked and was undanceable? if a ballerina dances to something that does not have "sugar plum fairies" is she not doing ballet? in my occasionally less than humble opinion, it is her heart, body and feet that make it ballet, not the sugar plum fairies; i think she is doing ballet. when my ballerina dances ballet to tango music, is she doing ballet because that is what her heart and body are doing, or is it tango because of the music? again it looks and feels like ballet to me. when pablo veron coreographs carmen on broadway in an musical that combines opera, ballet and tango, is the dance that looks like tango, not tango? i think that tango is about spirit and intent, there are identifiable moves, customs and behaviors. it is these things that make it tango, not necessarily the music. i think that tango is so personal and hard to define "specifically" that if the spirit and intent are there and it has the moves, etc. no matter what the music; it can be tango. The Tangonista Sponsored by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music _ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate. Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
On 12/7/07, Tom English <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Some people have the aptitude to be able to memorize things. Myself, I > don't have that ability to a great extent. However, I do feel the emotion > between each beat and THAT is worth much more than memorizing a song! A > leader definitely does not have to memorize a song, or know the orchestra, > to provide his follower with the sweet essence of the song! > > I don't think there is any recommendation to memorize a tango here. It's just that after listening to a song repeatedly you know what is coming next and you can create your dance around the anticipated music, differently each time, of course. I sometimes don't dance if I don't know the music. Since I DJ, if another DJ stays close to classic tangos, I will have plenty to choose from. However, some DJs play a lot of unknown tangos, or non-tango music, which leaves fewer options for good dancing. If you go to milongas in Buenos Aires, you will hear the same classic tango music played across all the milongas. Some tango music is just better to dance to. I'm sure the dancers at Buenos Aires milongas provide feedback to the DJs as to which music is best for dancers. Ron ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Some people have the aptitude to be able to memorize things. Myself, I don't have that ability to a great extent. However, I do feel the emotion between each beat and THAT is worth much more than memorizing a song! A leader definitely does not have to memorize a song, or know the orchestra, to provide his follower with the sweet essence of the song! "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I won't dance a tanda until I identify the orchestra and decide if it > is one to which I enjoy dancing. > I decided to test myself at a milonga yesterday. I sat at the table > with pen and paper, making a note of the orchestra for each tanda. Pen and paper, Janis??? I'm surprised that knowing the name of the orchestra is either necessary or sufficient to decide whether you'll enjoy the music. I think you'll find most dancers get the answer true and direct from the feel of the music itself. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
> when the Michigan Tango Club plays a tanda of popular music with a > rhythm conducive to tango steps, the beginner leaders all of a sudden > get major amounts of musicality. > So, it's a great exercise in learning tango. No. It is a great exercise in learning non-tango. And a deception to any student who's told otherwise. > I enthusiastically support the tangoing-to-non-tango The fallacy that there is such a thing as "tangoing-to-non-tango" lies at the heart of much misunderstanding of this issue of musicality. In places where people can really dance, the word "tango" means the music. The dancing they do to it is not "tangoing" it is just "dancing". Why? Because the foundation of the dance is the music. The dance is nothing more (or less) that what comes from the right mixture of guy, girl and music. This is key to the dancer's expression of their own musicality. At the opposite end of the tango earth you find people to whom "tango" is a dance and the music they (sometimes) do this to they call "tango music". Why? Because their dance has no foundation other than a paltry vocabulary of prescribed moves rote-learned from instructors. As Huck said, as soon as there's no instructor to ape, it falls apart. A million musicality workshops cannot turn this perversion into the real thing - even when danced to "tango music" - because it does not come FROM tango music. Beginners, your journey /begins/ with the music. Only from that starting point will any steps take you nearer to being a dancer. -- Chris PS Anna wrote: > Knowing the music by heart does not mean you repeat patterns or do a > choreography. It liberates you, it inspires you, the heart does not > follow patterns. The heart is intuitive, surprising, unpredictable. The > music is never the same when you know it by heart... I have never seen this better put into words. Thank you, Anna. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
> I won't dance a tanda until I identify the orchestra and decide if it > is one to which I enjoy dancing. > I decided to test myself at a milonga yesterday. I sat at the table > with pen and paper, making a note of the orchestra for each tanda. Pen and paper, Janis??? I'm surprised that knowing the name of the orchestra is either necessary or sufficient to decide whether you'll enjoy the music. I think you'll find most dancers get the answer true and direct from the feel of the music itself. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality - what is it?
> Perhaps rhetorical questions. > What is average number of years you critics of musicality classes have been > dancing tango? Number of hours you have spent listening to tango? I doubt that numbers matter. Not the numbers of years and not the number of classes. I guess it is all individual. Some need more time, some are more open or apt to feel the music, or to surrender to the music or to rely on intuition rather than on analytical approach? Honestly, to me a clapping lecture does not sound very seductive, rather the opposite. I think it is about feeling the music and feeling at home in the music. And I think I will need many more years to really know the music well. But I enjoy being slow and I don't feel the need to speed up or to pass a test of musicality or to clap hands in classes. I fell in love with tango about 15 years ago. With my friends we humbly decided we wanted to... stage a tango opera, because we felt inspired ;) So we would meet to dance, to sing the songs, play the music (we just played guitar;) Of course we never made it to some stage performance, but we had a great time. All these years I kept listening to the tango music and I think it can never get boring to hear the well known songs. I enjoy knowing the lyrics and I discover all sorts of feelings in the music and I enjoy all these feelings when listening to it and dancing to it. Being familiar with the music makes it easier for me to find this dream-like floating stage of abandonment if I can trust the partner I dance with. And even if my dancing partner does not seem to feel the music or he does not connect to me, the music will be my refuge, which is great :) Anna _ Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! http://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc=100071&distributionid=0066 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
I agree, I would much rather dance with a man who knows a song by heart! Because he has internalized the music, not only is he freer to actually dance and spontaneously express himself with more variety, depth of feeling and sensuality, but he is also freer and better prepared to pay some quality attention to his partner! For me, there is no question that getting to know a piece of music really, really well, for dancing, listening, or playing, tango or any other style, is far more interesting and pleasurable and not at all limiting musically. On the contrary, it seems like it provides a solid foundation from which to soar. Terri --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > unconscious, straight from the > > heart without thinking musicality you can dance with if > > you know the song intimately. > > musicality, straight from the heart, thank you, Huck. As a follower it is > wonderful to feel the intimacy with the music AND the embrace AND to feel the > intimacy of the leader with the music. > > Andrew wrote: > > There is no fun in > > dancing day in day out to the same music: this > > eventually leads to choreography, the opposite of > > tango, which is based on improvisation. Anybody who > > insists that the dancers dance better if they know the > > piece of music by heart is talking about ballet, not > > tango. > > Knowing the music by heart does not mean you repeat patterns or do a > choreography. > It liberates you, it inspires you, the heart does not follow patterns. The > heart > is intuitive, surprising, unpredictable. The music is never the same when you > know > it by heart. Perception changes with the environment, the flow of the > dancing, > the lighting and atmosphere of the milonga, with your mood, the way you feel > the > embrace, the way you feel your partner and the way that he feels you and the > music. And even with the same partner it will always be different because as > the > saying goes: you never jump in the same river, it's all subject to change and > free > floating. > > warm greeting to all of you and thank you for being so passionate about > discussing > musicality ;) > > Anna > > __ > XXL-Speicher, PC-Virenschutz, Spartarife & mehr: Nur im WEB.DE Club! > Jetzt testen! http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021130 > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Hi Huck, I have taken only one tango "musicality" class. It went over different composers/eras, as well how they differently convey different feelings and emotions, even using the same song. Then we explored a bit how different dance approaches will produce different emotions, such as creating tension, etc. I enjoyed the class, it was bidirectional and basically the teacher was telling what cool things one can look for and explore. I'm sure given enough time you will find a lot of this, but not all. That's the nice thing about taking classes vs never taking or only reading books. We may have had very different experiences as far as classes go. I don't have them with teachers I don't dig or I don't enjoy their (lack of) sensitivity. That's why it's a good idea to check out the first one to see if you like it. Maybe I was very lucky with it and this is why you strongly disagree ? It looks like you took classes that were aimed at people at a level much lower level than yours. There are very bad music teachers around and that doesn't make music classes worthless in general. :-) stay cool b On 12/6/07, Huck Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bruno Afonso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I find interesting people here saying that classes on musicality are > > worthless when even top musicians in schools like berklee school of > > music have them from others. And those are soon to be professional > > musicians. But hey, I'm sure a tango aficionado knows more about music > > than some of the best musicians in the world... people here tend to > > know more about everything than anyone else, so that wouldn't surprise > > me :) > > Congratulations on building and then successfully slaying > a strawman with penache, Bruno! Some of us saying that most > musicality classes taught to tango students are of little use > in no way logically implies the ridiculous sweeping > generalization that music colleges are worthless as you claim > it does above. > > Music is indeed a very technical subject. When Berklee > School of Music starts teaching musicality classes at a tango > festival, let me know, and I'll gladly sign up. Meanwhile, > I'll pass on the usual Hand Clapping 101 Class and Phrases Are > Eight Measures And Oh By The Way Two Plus Two Equals Four Class > next time I go to a tango festival, if you don't mind. :-) -- Bruno Afonso http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Hello Tango Aficionados, There seems to be a consensus that musicality is matching movement to music much as scatting is matching vocal sound to music.? Indeed, I believe that dancing in general is much like scatting. Does one need to be familiar with the music to scat?? Not really, since music, at least good music, is fairly predictable.? For example, almost all traditional tangos have 3 sections: moderate, slow, and fast.? Even modern tangos are predictable if not redundant.? So, I submit that after hearing only 5 seconds of a tango dancers with only a rudimentary sense of musicality should be able to effectively match movement to the music, at least to some extent. Does familiarity with the music help?? Of course!? I'm sure that Ella Fitzgerald practiced her scatting in order to get a perfect blend with the music.? Part of her genius was that she made it sound besides, perfectly blended, perfectly natural and spontaneous.? For me, that is the true measure and meaning of musicality. Bob More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aimcmp000501 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
OK, I wasn't gonna but I'm gonna jump in. 1. There is a WORLD of difference between XYZ "musicality" class and ABC "musicality" class. Some people need 2 + 2 = 4 because they do not understand basic rhythm and phrases in music. Don't mock that That's just mean, people. They probably have never been exposed to basic structural concepts of music, such as AABA (motif-motif-new motif-motif)...(which is not typical for tango but it is for the pervasive pop music and that is where most people connect with the idea of musical structure). Others dance at a level where they only need a class of 'shines' to use to punctuate the 'hooks' and/or 'breaks' (ie, good things to do at various points where the music is recognizably cadencing, or a phrase is terminating, or the style changes from rough to smooth or vice versa - maybe a musician on the list can find a better set of lay terms to replace that jargon). I think the reason this discussion has gone on so long is that you walk into a quote-unquote musicality class, ANYTHING could be on the menu. There's no consistency in the level or the approach, or even the objective. And the levels of ability in any such class will range from no-comprendo to extremely gifted. It would be ideal to select for different levels/styles of musicality classes by prerequisite -- ie, observation of the student by the teacher and placement in the right type of musicality class. IMO. 2. OK, certain people are gonna hate this but. I have observed that when the Michigan Tango Club plays a tanda of popular music with a rhythm conducive to tango steps, the beginner leaders all of a sudden get major amounts of musicality. Meaning, they can all of a sudden dance to the phrase and they start using all of the vocabulary they have been learning, rather than having their brain burned out by parsing unfamiliar music while leading while navigating the line of dance while not toppling or overleading the follow. So, it's a great exercise in learning tango. So yes, my point supports all those listmembers saying that knowing a song cold makes you a better dancer (to that song, and to other songs, because you start to recognize the building blocks of the music genre). But beginners don't know tango music cold and are not likely to make that investment except in the couple of songs they get in class. I don't even listen to tango casually around the house and I love it. It makes me listen too much and I can't do anything else but listen. This knowledge of all the stuff regularly being DJed in your community comes eventually with many hours of dance experience, but frankly a lot of those beginner leaders will quit if they never experience that high level of comfort. So I enthusiastically support the tangoing-to-non-tango tanda at the practica and yes, even at the milonga (if purists are offended they can just leave for a smoke or an interesting conversation in the hall, or sit down for a few minutes). Huck Kennedy wrote: > Bruno Afonso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I find interesting people here saying that classes on musicality are >> worthless when even top musicians in schools like berklee school of >> music have them from others. And those are soon to be professional >> musicians. But hey, I'm sure a tango aficionado knows more about music >> than some of the best musicians in the world... people here tend to >> know more about everything than anyone else, so that wouldn't surprise >> me :) > > Congratulations on building and then successfully slaying > a strawman with penache, Bruno! Some of us saying that most > musicality classes taught to tango students are of little use > in no way logically implies the ridiculous sweeping > generalization that music colleges are worthless as you claim > it does above. > > Music is indeed a very technical subject. When Berklee > School of Music starts teaching musicality classes at a tango > festival, let me know, and I'll gladly sign up. Meanwhile, > I'll pass on the usual Hand Clapping 101 Class and Phrases Are > Eight Measures And Oh By The Way Two Plus Two Equals Four Class > next time I go to a tango festival, if you don't mind. :-) > > Huck > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Bruno Afonso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I find interesting people here saying that classes on musicality are > worthless when even top musicians in schools like berklee school of > music have them from others. And those are soon to be professional > musicians. But hey, I'm sure a tango aficionado knows more about music > than some of the best musicians in the world... people here tend to > know more about everything than anyone else, so that wouldn't surprise > me :) Congratulations on building and then successfully slaying a strawman with penache, Bruno! Some of us saying that most musicality classes taught to tango students are of little use in no way logically implies the ridiculous sweeping generalization that music colleges are worthless as you claim it does above. Music is indeed a very technical subject. When Berklee School of Music starts teaching musicality classes at a tango festival, let me know, and I'll gladly sign up. Meanwhile, I'll pass on the usual Hand Clapping 101 Class and Phrases Are Eight Measures And Oh By The Way Two Plus Two Equals Four Class next time I go to a tango festival, if you don't mind. :-) Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
> unconscious, straight from the > heart without thinking musicality you can dance with if > you know the song intimately. musicality, straight from the heart, thank you, Huck. As a follower it is wonderful to feel the intimacy with the music AND the embrace AND to feel the intimacy of the leader with the music. Andrew wrote: > There is no fun in > dancing day in day out to the same music: this > eventually leads to choreography, the opposite of > tango, which is based on improvisation. Anybody who > insists that the dancers dance better if they know the > piece of music by heart is talking about ballet, not > tango. Knowing the music by heart does not mean you repeat patterns or do a choreography. It liberates you, it inspires you, the heart does not follow patterns. The heart is intuitive, surprising, unpredictable. The music is never the same when you know it by heart. Perception changes with the environment, the flow of the dancing, the lighting and atmosphere of the milonga, with your mood, the way you feel the embrace, the way you feel your partner and the way that he feels you and the music. And even with the same partner it will always be different because as the saying goes: you never jump in the same river, it's all subject to change and free floating. warm greeting to all of you and thank you for being so passionate about discussing musicality ;) Anna __ XXL-Speicher, PC-Virenschutz, Spartarife & mehr: Nur im WEB.DE Club! Jetzt testen! http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021130 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
hi Koos, For the sake of mis-using my words (not your fault, I was ambiguous by choice) I actually have to say don't agree that much with Igor's post and I found offensive the way he replied. I honestly believe we must have very different notions of what musicality and fully immersing oneself into a music means. I don't appreciate splitting tango into a common set of known structures and missing all the nice nuances. But I'll respect it. I also feel that this kind of things are not very profitable to discuss over email, so I haven't bothered to reply anymore. There's also too much conceptual talk about elusive concepts and that bothers me a bit. I find interesting people here saying that classes on musicality are worthless when even top musicians in schools like berklee school of music have them from others. And those are soon to be professional musicians. But hey, I'm sure a tango aficionado knows more about music than some of the best musicians in the world... people here tend to know more about everything than anyone else, so that wouldn't surprise me :) There's a widespread misconception among class-haters that classes are uni-directional. I'd say a good musicality class is bidirectional. A good teacher will ease your way to reach enlightenment ;-) enjoy yourselves on the dance floor ! I sure haven't been there for a while and I miss it now. Koos, I think I'd rather build my interpretation of a music every time I dance it. That is what I like the most in tango, the lack of set rules (which, btw, some followers will hate and never want to dance with you again). That said, even the best jazz musicians use pre-studied sets of phrases in their "chops"... so take that with a grain of salt. oh well, I've written too much and not necessarily gained any knowledge by it. Now if I was dancing... b On 12/5/07, Koos de Wit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To Huck, Igor, Chris, Bruno, Andy and others, > > I strongly underline Igor's "A musical piece has enough hints what is > going on" and I love Andy's ideal milonga with only unknown music. I > disagree completely with Huck's "We want to know precisely everything > that is coming, so we can dance with as much musicality as possible". > > I agree with Chris that musicality can not be taught in a class. > However, teaching is feasible to improve the ability of dancing with > musicality. I differentiate between musicality itself and dancing with > musicality. I explicitly don't mean the money consuming group-clapping > musicality classes or listening to some teacher droning on and on > abstractly about various qualities of orchestras as already rejected by > Huck. > > For learning to dance with musicality one should be taught how to > translate particular structures in the music into corresponding > structures in our tango dancing movements. It is a technical thing, a > toolkit. The more conspicuous the musical structure of the songs used > is, the better this translation from music to movement can be displayed > and taught. The final result on the dance floor depends on the not > teachable musicality skill of the dancer. As Bruno stated, some take 5 > seconds, others take 10 years. > > This knowledge about translating music to movements will not change a > poor dancer into a rich dancer overnight, but it will be helpfull and > inspiring. > > Koos de Wit > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Bruno Afonso http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Huck Kennedy wrote in part: For those of you of a certain age in countries where the Beatles were hugely popular, do you remember how so many people growing up at the time knew every single one of their songs intimately, so much so that the music was practically running through our veins? ... Well that's how well you need to know the various tangos in order to dance them with musicality. >> Thank you, Huck. That was an excellent example. I listened to the Beatles' music so much in my teenage years that I haven't forgotten the lyrics. The music I enjoyed and studied as a musician is part of me. If people don't understand what it means to KNOW the music after your clear explanation, they'll never get it. I take it for granted since I'm a trained musician. I can dance to music I don't know, but I'd rather dance to music I know well. It makes all the difference in how you feel dancing. You connect. I've been listening to tango in the milongas and on the radio for the past ten years. I'm finally getting to the point where I can identify the orchestras within a few bars before accepting an invitation to dance. I won't dance a tanda until I identify the orchestra and decide if it is one to which I enjoy dancing. I decided to test myself at a milonga yesterday. I sat at the table with pen and paper, making a note of the orchestra for each tanda. I was within a few feet of the deejay, so I could ask him for help. I have to thank the milongueros for identifying the orchestras for me during tandas over the years. After La Cumparsita, I ran my list by the deejay who filled in a blank for me on one tanda. The format is usually tango-tango-milonga-tango-tango-vals-tango-tango-milonga-tango-tango-vals until the last half hour when it was four consecutive tandas of tango. There are more tango recordings than milonga and vals combined, so it is logical there are more tango tandas in milongas. I danced only three tandas in 3-1/2 hours because I was enjoying the music so much. I would enjoy it even more if there wasn't so much conversation. People who aren't dancing are talking so loud that their conversations are public rather than private. It's worse to hear those dancing engaged in conversations. What is so important to talk about while you are dancing? No one can dance well while having conversation, so that this is a good indication of dancers to avoid. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
To Huck, Igor, Chris, Bruno, Andy and others, I strongly underline Igor's "A musical piece has enough hints what is going on" and I love Andy's ideal milonga with only unknown music. I disagree completely with Huck's "We want to know precisely everything that is coming, so we can dance with as much musicality as possible". I agree with Chris that musicality can not be taught in a class. However, teaching is feasible to improve the ability of dancing with musicality. I differentiate between musicality itself and dancing with musicality. I explicitly don't mean the money consuming group-clapping musicality classes or listening to some teacher droning on and on abstractly about various qualities of orchestras as already rejected by Huck. For learning to dance with musicality one should be taught how to translate particular structures in the music into corresponding structures in our tango dancing movements. It is a technical thing, a toolkit. The more conspicuous the musical structure of the songs used is, the better this translation from music to movement can be displayed and taught. The final result on the dance floor depends on the not teachable musicality skill of the dancer. As Bruno stated, some take 5 seconds, others take 10 years. This knowledge about translating music to movements will not change a poor dancer into a rich dancer overnight, but it will be helpfull and inspiring. Koos de Wit ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
1)In the tango, the man keeps the woman guessing, but the music keeps the man guessing. There is no fun in dancing day in day out to the same music: this eventually leads to choreography, the opposite of tango, which is based on improvisation. Anybody who insists that the dancers dance better if they know the piece of music by heart is talking about ballet, not tango. There are many tangos I know so well that I cannot move to them any more, they don't creat any TENSION and bore the pants off me. My ideal milonga would play exclusively music I didn't know - I haven't come across it yet unfortunately! 2) We follow unfamiliar tango music by following basic Western harmony [ie "harmonic rhythm": the chord progressions] that we are all familiar with because we have been hearing it even in our mother's womb [yes, we hear 3 months after conception]; you only need musical training if you want to name those chords. Unfortunately, our innate musicality gets severely castrated once we are made to count beats. And memorise steps. All people then end up in perceiving is a boring pulse that they are made to believe is what dancing is all about. Some might be alert enough to realise eventually that what they are doing has little to do with the music - but this awareness can take 10 years to manifest itself - and then have to shell out more money on usually pedantic "musicality" classes to get back to where they started in the first place. Great! more money for the "teacher" Cheers, Andy. --- Huck Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Igor Polk writes: > > Because they are slow: you have plenty of time to > > react and to interpret. IF YOU KNOW HOW ! > > "If you know how." Cute. :-) This totally > misses the point I was making, that no matter how > well one can process and react to unfamiliar music > (which means yes, you do know how, thank you very > much), it is still inferior to the musicality that > comes from intimate almost-like-breathing > familiarity > of the music being played. How could it not be? > > > Ok, Ok, I am going to restrain myself pointing who > "plods > > around clumsily like Frankenstein's monster." > > Which effectively means that by posting this > oblique sideswipe, you did NOT restrain yourself in > any way other than a hypocritically technical one. > > I'm sorry that you disagree with my opinion on > musicality, Igor, and I'm also sorry that you can't > express your disagreement without insulting me, and > in a cowardly denying-you're-doing it manner to > boot. > > Huck > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > Andrew W. RYSER SZYMAÑSKI, 23b All Saints Road, London, W11 1HE, 07944 128 739. __ Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Some people can stare at a painting for 10 years and not get it. Others only need 5 seconds. I hope you get this. BA On 12/5/07, Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To Huck, who wrote: > "..you can't dance the song nearly as musically as you could if you did > know the music intimately." > > No. I belive a musical piece has enough hints what is going on. Which are > obvious for the trained ear. > - First of all the next bar is similar to the previous. You will get the > feeling and the rhythical pattern. > - The second, part of the music later in the piece repeats itself more or > less. With some variation, but that is what you expect, don't you? > - the third - dancing to the melody, one can easy follow longer notes, > sentences, and phrases. Because they are slow: you have plenty of time to > react and to interpret. IF YOU KNOW HOW ! > - Part of it is that the music is WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY FOR DANCERS ! It > follows the patterns of Traditional Tango dance. So if you know the dance, > TRADITIONAL DANCE (!), it MAGICALLY FITS INTO MISIC ! > - And the last, when one has fast reaction, one can immediatelly fit the > dancing action into the most fastest twist in the rhythmical pattern or > melody. One is not listening to music there. Instead, a couple completely > intervines themselves with the music: body is listening. Music moves ! Even > in Milonga! I can tell you. > > > Ok, Ok, I am going to restrain myself pointing who "plods around clumsily > like > Frankenstein's monster." > > Igor Polk. > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Bruno Afonso http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Huck, "If you know how" is not "cute". It is serious! To know dozens of ways to interpret unfamiliar melody and rhythm pattern in your body and infuse it in your partner so that it feels totally in unison with unfamiliar music is a very serious skill. Art, I would say. Fortunately, none of these ways require you to know "exactly which note, phrase, etc. is coming next in the song." So you just know these dozens of ways ( say, 3-4 of the most simple ones ) and do not have to memorize all 1 pieces of classical tangos (not to speak about nuevo) in order to dance musically. Just listening to music made noone a good dancer. Moving, dancing with music, and discovering ways to dance musically, may be with a help of an advanced friend or a good teacher helps. I do not miss your point. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Huck wrote: > don't waste your money on so-called "musicality classes." Indeed. Musicality classes are about as much use as gorgeousicality classes or tallicality classes ;) If you have even a modicum of feeling for the music, you're disqualified as a musicality class student. And as a musicality class teacher. No-one having a good relationship with the music could truly believe such can be taught in a class. Hence the field left clear for the armies of show-and-tell teachers whose instruction usurps the music as the foundation of the dance and instils that "aimless, boring noodling" pseudo-dancing even in learners that did start out from the music. Students, just say No. > mindlessly aping the people who can is not going to help you > much 10 minutes after the class is over and there is nobody > who knows what they're doing to ape anymore And careful with that axe, Huck - one swing could fell an entire army... -- Chris PS A video of Osvaldo Pugliese playing "Chique" at the Teatro Colón: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ti-IC38M7x8 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Igor Polk writes: > Because they are slow: you have plenty of time to > react and to interpret. IF YOU KNOW HOW ! "If you know how." Cute. :-) This totally misses the point I was making, that no matter how well one can process and react to unfamiliar music (which means yes, you do know how, thank you very much), it is still inferior to the musicality that comes from intimate almost-like-breathing familiarity of the music being played. How could it not be? > Ok, Ok, I am going to restrain myself pointing who "plods > around clumsily like Frankenstein's monster." Which effectively means that by posting this oblique sideswipe, you did NOT restrain yourself in any way other than a hypocritically technical one. I'm sorry that you disagree with my opinion on musicality, Igor, and I'm also sorry that you can't express your disagreement without insulting me, and in a cowardly denying-you're-doing it manner to boot. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
To Huck, who wrote: "..you can't dance the song nearly as musically as you could if you did know the music intimately." No. I belive a musical piece has enough hints what is going on. Which are obvious for the trained ear. - First of all the next bar is similar to the previous. You will get the feeling and the rhythical pattern. - The second, part of the music later in the piece repeats itself more or less. With some variation, but that is what you expect, don't you? - the third - dancing to the melody, one can easy follow longer notes, sentences, and phrases. Because they are slow: you have plenty of time to react and to interpret. IF YOU KNOW HOW ! - Part of it is that the music is WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY FOR DANCERS ! It follows the patterns of Traditional Tango dance. So if you know the dance, TRADITIONAL DANCE (!), it MAGICALLY FITS INTO MISIC ! - And the last, when one has fast reaction, one can immediatelly fit the dancing action into the most fastest twist in the rhythmical pattern or melody. One is not listening to music there. Instead, a couple completely intervines themselves with the music: body is listening. Music moves ! Even in Milonga! I can tell you. Ok, Ok, I am going to restrain myself pointing who "plods around clumsily like Frankenstein's monster." Igor Polk. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
mu·si·cal·i·ty 1. The quality or condition of being musical. 2. Musical sensitivity or talent. I suppose through listening to a lot of Tango one would pick up on the predictably of it and apply that to new Tangos. I agree that one would dance better if you knew the song or have the aptitude to learn very quickly and identify the general repetition, melody of the song. (I am sure there is better jargon.) I think that is why suddenly being faced with say a new Tango, especially Neuvo, is daunting as it is not easily understood the first time round. Unless you are very confident in your creativity you would "simplify" your dance while you pay attention to the music. Musicality for me would then be how sensitive you are to the music and the confidence you have in being able to change your movements to suit the music. 'Mash London,UK On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 10:51:04AM -0700, Huck Kennedy wrote: > Igor Polk writes: > > Huck Kennedy: "You will be seriously handicapped unless > > you always know exactly which note, phrase, etc. is coming > > next in the song." > > > > You are "seriously handicapped", if you can not dance > > tango ( musically ! ) to an unfamiliar song ! > > Reading is fundamental. I did not say one cannot > dance musically *at all* to an unfamiliar tune, but rather > that one is seriously handicapped. That means you can't > dance the song nearly as musically as you could if you did > know the music intimately. > > The reason for this is that you have to listen to > the unfamiliar song analytically while you are dancing, > and consciously figure out what the music is doing and > where you guess it might go next. Contrast this conscious > analyzing process with the unconscious, straight from the > heart without thinking musicality you can dance with if > you know the song intimately. > > Add onto that the lack of an emotional investment > in an unfamiliar song (which is the other half of the > musicality equation and just as important, if not more > so), and you are just as I said, seriously handicapped. > That doesn't mean, however, that you can't dance with any > musicality at all, and will just plod around clumsily like > Frankenstein's monster. > > Huck > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Igor Polk writes: > Huck Kennedy: "You will be seriously handicapped unless > you always know exactly which note, phrase, etc. is coming > next in the song." > > You are "seriously handicapped", if you can not dance > tango ( musically ! ) to an unfamiliar song ! Reading is fundamental. I did not say one cannot dance musically *at all* to an unfamiliar tune, but rather that one is seriously handicapped. That means you can't dance the song nearly as musically as you could if you did know the music intimately. The reason for this is that you have to listen to the unfamiliar song analytically while you are dancing, and consciously figure out what the music is doing and where you guess it might go next. Contrast this conscious analyzing process with the unconscious, straight from the heart without thinking musicality you can dance with if you know the song intimately. Add onto that the lack of an emotional investment in an unfamiliar song (which is the other half of the musicality equation and just as important, if not more so), and you are just as I said, seriously handicapped. That doesn't mean, however, that you can't dance with any musicality at all, and will just plod around clumsily like Frankenstein's monster. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Huck Kennedy: "You will be seriously handicapped unless you always know exactly which note, phrase, etc. is coming next in the song." You are "seriously handicapped", if you can not dance tango ( musically ! ) to an unfamiliar song ! However, your advice about the CDs is excellent. Frankly, I do not belive it will help you in any way if you do not KNOW HOW TO DANCE musically, but listening will bring a new listener to a pretty unfamiliar world of Tango. Real Tango. I know some people who did not like tango and especially traditional tango. But after starting listening more and more, they learned how to find quality in the music. Especially, if they had successful dances to that music. As for me - it is my music. I did not need to listen to it to become familiar with it. I fell in love with it as soon as I have heard first several beats. Tango is in my heart ! Igor Polk. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Victor Bennetts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > The tango embrace is intimate so a follower can tell a lot > about a leader, [...] > One of the things they can tell is if the leader is actually > listening to and enjoying the music. To me that is musicality. > I don't think lessons help all that much on this particular > point. You have to first and foremost like the music and then > secondly listen to it a lot so that you know it by heart and > can anticipate what sort of steps are going to fit a particular > passage. Bingo. Thanks, Victor, for posting that. For those of you of a certain age in countries where the Beatles were hugely popular, do you remember how so many people growing up at the time knew every single one of their songs intimately, so much so that the music was practically running through our veins? Similarly, that's how well many of the WWII-ear guys and gals knew the Big Band swing music. Well that's how well you need to know the various tangos in order to dance them with musicality. You will be seriously handicapped unless you always know exactly which note, phrase, etc. is coming next in the song. Which is another reason many of us prefer to dance to the tried and true old recordings than to some of the newer stuff, or to obscure (at least to us) live orchestras' unpredictable interpretations of the old stuff. We want to know precisely everything that is coming, so we can dance with as much musicality as possible, in a natural, almost subconscious way (since the music is so heavily burnt into our brains), without having to actually think about musicality analytically, which takes all the fun out of it. We want it to be just like breathing. If you can only hazard a guess as to where the music is going next, your musicality is going to suffer. If you know the music so well that it's almost a part of you, and you love it, dancing with musicality becomes as easy as singing. And note the "love" part (which Victor also mentions)--that's why many people sit out tandas of music they don't particularly care for. If the music doesn't move you, you're not going to be able to dance with as much musicality, because good musicality requires being emotionally involved with the music. So my advice to anyone starting out is, don't waste your money on so-called "musicality classes." You'll either just wind up standing around group-clapping like some kind of trained seal--if you can't feel the rhythm yourself, clapping along with and thus mindlessly aping the people who can is not going to help you much 10 minutes after the class is over and there is nobody who knows what they're doing to ape anymore--or else you'll wind up listening to some teacher drone on and on abstractly about various qualities of orchestras, which will be little more than blather to you if you haven't first spent a gazillion hours listening to the music so you can even begin to understand on a gut level what the instructor is going on about. So I say spend your money on tango CDs instead, and then listen to them until your ears fall off! Actually, I have a lot more advice than that, but until you know the music of as many tangos as possible very intimately, you'll just be spinning your wheels in any attempts to be musical. It's kind of like trying to have a nice tight musical jam when one or more of the musicians doesn't know the underlying song--other than in jazz, it usually just winds up being aimless, boring noodling. Which is precisely (and unfortunately) what a lot of tango dancing looks like, especially when it is compounded with trying to do too many complicated and technically difficult steps. I also agree with what Victor seems to be implying (if I'm reading him right), to wit, that musicality just comes naturally to some people more than others, just as moving elegantly (without any regard to music, just judging the pure movement in and of itself) comes easier to some people than others. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
To me, musicality is like punctuation in a sentence. I feel commas, semicolons, and sometimes excalmation points. There are some figures are good for commas, others for semicolons, and some for excalmation points. A nice sexy pose, such as a leg wraparound is wonderful for an excalmation point. An ocho cortado works perfectly with a period. You have to listen to a lot of music to feel the punctuation. Once you feel it, you'll understand that some figures just don't work in waltz because the music is gone and you're not finished with the figure. I suggest you put on music and just walk alone to it and experiment, concentrating only on your movements. Michael Usually from Washington, DC but now on a cruise ship as a dance host WITHOUT AT and it's killing me. A musical group played Por una cabeza during afternoon tea. I almost jumped over board I was in pain because there was nobody to dance with. I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
You can really learn what musicality isn't when you listen to the types of songs DJ's outside of Argentina juxtapose during a tanda. Part of musicality is the finely tuned blending of one song practically melting seamlessly into the next so that the leads can move with the same rhythm and maintain a certain flow of dancing that is characterized by all the songs in the tanda. The horror of going from a nuevo tune to a show tango song to a song from the 40's is jarring and impedes and defies the concept of musicality. If as a dancer you find that you can easily shift gears to adopt to these poorly arranged tandas, you probably are not experiencing musicality and are just dancing over the music, oblivious to beats, rhythms, counter rhythms and melodies. Oouch. Sherrie Pallotta Shaker Heights **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
The tango embrace is intimate so a follower can tell a lot about a leader, are they nervous, are they angry, tired, have bad indigestion, etc. One of the things they can tell is if the leader is actually listening to and enjoying the music. To me that is musicality. I don't think lessons help all that much on this particular point. You have to first and foremost like the music and then secondly listen to it a lot so that you know it by heart and can anticipate what sort of steps are going to fit a particular passage. Where I found lessons personally helpful however is I think as an inexperience leader you are tempted to fill up the entire dance with a lot of complicated steps. Whereas what followers actually want is that you give them plenty of space to feel and express the music as well. Victor Bennetts >I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I can not really define what people understand under the term "Musicality". Another question is how to develop it. >Igor Polk CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Hey, On 11/30/07, Floyd Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm not a musician as such, you're right. Do I need to be? Freud did Here's Mark Sabatella's intro on his jazz primer: "For the purposes of this primer, we are all musicians. Some of us may be performing musicians, while most of us are listening musicians. Most of the former are also the latter. I will try to use the term performer and listener respectively, rather than the terms musician or non-musician, when addressing my audience. This primer is intended primarily for performers who wish to learn jazz improvisation. It is also intended for listeners who wish to increase their understanding of the music. I believe that all musicians can benefit from a fuller understanding of jazz, as this can lead to an enhanced enjoyment of the music." There are great musicians that don't play an instrument, that is, they don't perform. Most musicians do perform and that had them develop musicality. That is why most persons with a well developed musicality are indeed performing musicians. It doesn't mean that you need to be a performer to have good musicality. Everyone can, they just need to put (a lot of) time into it, which is less common if you're not a performer. Don't forget that sometimes one's musicality is other's lack of. Welcome to music and art. b -- Bruno Afonso http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Just for the record.., here's my response to a private email. Excluding the sender. Good morning... I understand there's a whole lot more than the one point I wanted to make. That of silent counts being most important.. I'm not a musician as such, you're right. Do I need to be? Freud did not go to college to become a talk therapist, but he was one was he not? Do my fingers need to be trained to play notes? Can I not understand in my mind what musician strive for without reaching that goal myself? Perhaps 'flawlessly is a must for any music'. I'm sure it's a goal that many strive for at least. But does it always happen. Nahh...So you need to have a name for that quality of flawlessness. Something so highly complex that overall there cannot be a single 'number or name' rating system... It's a balance of a hundred (to pick a number out of the air) aspects of playing music... As I said, silent counts being one of them. The musicality class that I referred to did not have anything to do with Tango music btw... But they still called it musicality... It was in fact for drums... 16 and 32 count beats. So obviously the term does not need to include dancing... But if you must connect it to dancing (Tango) then consider that the leader needs to trust the musicians to always be exactly behind his lead, where they need to be. The musicians must play well enough to allow him to trust their playing..., in order to dance as he should. As the follower must trust the leader to lead as well as the 'musicality' allows, in order to dance as well as she should.., right _on_ the beat. Btw, I prefer to talk exclusively on the L if that's where I originally post to a message. As with Usenet.., private email around a thread does nothing for the others who are also interested. Not that I claim to 'know' anything, but what I say may spark another's thoughts. Cheers... Floyd Sun Tango - Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango * * * www.olm1.com/~wny/tango * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Hi Igor, For me musicality as it applies to dancing requires the synchronicity of the movements of the dancers to the accents or to the tempo of the music. There are of course, many different ways to do this so in my opinion, musicality cannot be too narrowly defined. Moving in concert with the music is the quality of musicality in dancing. I've been to several musicality workshops and interestingly enough, I never found them very useful or applicable to my concept of musicality in dance. Personally, I believe that the dance itself is "musicality" in movement. So in a nutshell, musicality can be taught and learned simply by mastering rhythmic movements and doing them "in synch" with the music. Watching some performances by various professional dancers can be a good way to show or to see examples of musicality. I have some film of Chicho dancing with Cecilia in Atlanta when he first came to the US (we were lucky enough to be his first hosts in this country). Anyway, Chicho is a total master in musicality. I also have some film of Xavier & Geraldine dancing a demo of adornments to Darienzo after a class in at the Tangocamp Sweden. It's also a wonderful example of dancing very well with the music and to the rhythm. I wish I could show them to you. I should probably show them in my class whenever I teach a class in musicality Cheers, Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Following Steve's thoughts, > I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I can not > really define what people understand under the term "Musicality". > I can not say what it is. I know that dancing supposed to be with music. ( > And I believe I myself dance musically too ) But on a logical side, or > rather sociological side I am confused. > > If it is so common, can one define what "musicality" is? > What most people understand under "musicality"? > So if one say: "This is a musicality lesson" what people expect? Those who > come and those who do not? > > Another question is how to develop it. > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
I have a simple description. Admittedly, you can find more complicated explanations: Musicality is when Movement Energy Corresponds to Musical Energy. Energy is still a fuzzy, undefined concept, but it includes various aspects of movement such as speed, force, size, suspension, acceleration, lift, grounded-ness. So musicality is about adjusting your physical movements to go with the music in a pleasing (again undefined) manner. To teach it, you have to provide examples of musicality in the exercises. The goal is to offer enough varied examples, that people can ultimately learn it how it feels in the kinesthetic sense. So, for example, I teach brand new beginners to walk with musicality by matching their short elements to the musical phrase. Tango is built on four plus four equals eight walking beats. Initiate movement (compression and accelerate or surge) on the one or five, and come together stationary on the four or eight (suspend, momentum = zero). I'm very deterministic, and really insist on beginning at one and ending at four. Wooden? Yes at first, but at least they are wooden WITH the music instead of walking woodenly and aimlessly around the room. The value here is that when movement energy corresponds to musical energy for these 4+4=8 steps, then they "FEEL" right, the leaders are more confident, the followers learn about their musicality (i.e. how they respond through the connection), and that all adds up to bringing people closer to kinesthetic awareness (i.e. achieving musicality through intuitive learning). On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Igor Polk wrote: > Following Steve's thoughts, > I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I > can not > really define what people understand under the term "Musicality". > I can not say what it is. I know that dancing supposed to be with > music. ( > And I believe I myself dance musically too ) But on a logical side, or > rather sociological side I am confused. > > If it is so common, can one define what "musicality" is? > What most people understand under "musicality"? > So if one say: "This is a musicality lesson" what people expect? > Those who > come and those who do not? > > Another question is how to develop it. > > Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Musicality. What is it?
Following Steve's thoughts, I have deepen more into that, and to my surprise have found that I can not really define what people understand under the term "Musicality". I can not say what it is. I know that dancing supposed to be with music. ( And I believe I myself dance musically too ) But on a logical side, or rather sociological side I am confused. If it is so common, can one define what "musicality" is? What most people understand under "musicality"? So if one say: "This is a musicality lesson" what people expect? Those who come and those who do not? Another question is how to develop it. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
