Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Jack Dylan wrote: David, Nice find! Thank goodness we now have a voice that people might listen to :-) Or maybe not. Who wants to be the first to tell us that Gavito got it wrong? As a serial contrarian, I might want to point out that interpreting gospels in the correct context is fraught with danger, that literal interpretations are not always the most correct, and that taking statements out of the context in which they're uttered can be extremely misleading. If someone asks me if you have to lead the cross, I've been known to utter very similar things. Of course you lead everything. I'm a bit tired of people insinuating that if you actually listen to responses by the follower, you're not leading. That's a straw man's argument - you do lead everything that *you* plan to happen in a dance - including, indeed, if you want to make the lady blink (or collect slowly, or make an adorno, or pause oh-so slightly and restart *just* behind the beat,...). The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, what does he *then* do? Run away screaming? And is she ever wrong if she decides not to blink, even if she's *not* dancing with Gavito? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
David, Nice find! Thank goodness we now have a voice that people might listen to :-) Or maybe not. Who wants to be the first to tell us that Gavito got it wrong? Jack - Original Message From: David [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: Who made this quote? I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she blinks, I lead that, too! For the answer, see here: http://www.tangopulse.net/tango_pulse_sound_bites.htm ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of
movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated?
Learning for others' experience? Perhaps trying to understand how others
dance, feel, behave, so that I can try to better understand it as
well (or even -- sacrilege! -- try something else /begin{sarcasm}
than the Perfect and Obviously Only Correct Way to Dance Tango,
which is naturally the way I'm dancing it right now /end{sarcasm})?
What am I missing here? Why on earth are you on a mailing list
for tango discussions whinging about why it's ohso futile to discuss
tango? Why can't you just hit the delete button? Why do *you* consider
it on-topic and valuable to others to whinge about whether the posts
on this list are the exact type of posts you'd like the list to have?
--
Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals
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[Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
what the heck are we debating here?? I'm not sure what we are debating about at any moment in time, but I think what started it off was this statement, made a while back: Like every other lead in Tango, it is an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even fight it. Now I'm really hoping that the person didn't mean exactly what these words are actually saying, but if they do, then it would seem that if the leader (for example) invites the follower to step back, it would be perfectly appropriate for the follower to fight it, and I guess, do something else. For some of us, this seems to be quite different from the traditional concept of leader and follower. I also don't think the OP was taking about unclear leads, collision avoidance, or any other special circumstances. From there, we had some discussion on what an invitation is. At one point I was thinking that some might be happier if the terms Leader and Follower were changed to Inviter and Decider (as some appear to have strong opposition to the idea of the man leading and the woman following). I'll also admit that I'm still confused by someone who said they will sometimes invite a step where she has no choice but to follow. I didn't know that it was possible to give an invitation if there was no choice in the response. That sounds more like a directive than an invitation (or maybe even leading). Of course, we also heard from the can dish it out but can't take it crowd, with someone saying that people who disagreed with him could dance with broomsticks, and then later whining when a reply back to him wasn't up to his level of politeness. Maybe what we are really debating is how much can Argentine Tango change, before it is no longer Argentine Tango. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that question. Regards, David PS: Who made this quote? I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she blinks, I lead that, too! For the answer, see here: http://www.tangopulse.net/tango_pulse_sound_bites.htm ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
--- On Fri, 9/26/08, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From there, we had some discussion on what an invitation is. At one point I was thinking that some might be happier if the terms Leader and Follower were changed to Inviter and Decider (as some appear to have strong opposition to the idea of the man leading and the woman following). I'll also admit that I'm still confused by someone who said they will sometimes invite a step where she has no choice but to follow. But, why would you invite her to do something she wouldn't want to do? With people you dance with regularly, you know what steps or styles they, so you lead/invite accordingly, right? I interpret invite as suggesting something so wonderful that, of course, she'd say yes. Alternatives to lead/follow? Mark/Answer? Call/Response? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
But, why would you invite her to do something she wouldn't want to do? Possible reasons why: 1) I don't always know what she wants to do. 2) My interpretation of the music may be different from her interpretation. 3) I had to respond/react to something happening on the dance floor. 4) A mistake (ie. my skills need to improve). With people you dance with regularly, you know what steps or styles they, so you lead/invite accordingly, right? Yes, although I probably think more about styles in deciding who to ask to dance at the beginning of the tanda, as the song will definitely have an influence on what/how I lead (my style). During the dance I try to make some determination about what steps seems to go as expected, and which do not, so I know what to do (and stay away from) for the rest of the tanda. I interpret invite as suggesting something so wonderful that, of course, she'd say yes. That's a very nice way of interpreting it. Maybe some day I'll get to that level, where people think what I'm leading is wonderful. I've sometimes said that I try to lead as if it were an invitation, even if it really isn't. In any case, I agree with the sentiment of your post, in that I want my follower to enjoy the dance. Of course, I want to enjoy it too. In my eyes, for the dance to be a success, we both have to had enjoyed it. A lot of this stuff is self correcting, as if my lead is bad, people won't continue to dance with me, and if the follower can't follow (in the leader's eyes), she won't get asked to dance much. Hopefully, I'll keep learning and improving. Take care, David ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
It's really frustrating to be continuously reading the debating that goes on in Tango-L and suspect that it is apples vs oranges that are being described. Here again, I suspect, that one person is talking about close embrace social dancing and the other about Nuevo that is danced with distance between the partners and often to hardly recognisable Tango musictwo very different animals if we are splitting hairs about communication between partners. It was Jean-Pierre who told how he often just 'shook his head' after finally seeing how a Tango-L poster danced in person. I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows..but if there is something that I'm missing please post a video of it. Can you find a couple, on YouTube even, doing what you are suggesting? I can find dozens doing the lead/follow roles where not much choice is given the woman's role..except perhaps for a tap of the toe or a moment to embellish freely in place. Are we discussing apples and oranges? Is there a real debate going on or just another Red Herring that we are discussing? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Mario wrote: I would love to see a video of this give and take between partners... You can't see it (at least not directly). You can only feel it. If you haven't, well,... Can you see the complex feedback mechanisms that people use for bipedal motion (walking) without falling flat on their faces, or the ballistic reflex that lets someone turn his head and continue to look the same way? Yet I can assure you they are there, and there are thousands of pages of peer-reviewed literature describing the mechanisms. *In*directly, it's very easy to see (to take one extreme -- as I said, there are all shades of greys, including leaders who will listen to the follower to see her response but insist on his interpretation of almost everything, and this does not apply to them) a leader who just leads without *any* regard for whether the follower is tracking (so the couple moves in compliant motion). It looks more like bungee-jumping than tango, and the follower looks more like she's handled like a sack of potatoes than someone to care for. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
I would Mario wrote: love to see a video of this give and take between partners...even Chichi Fromboli doesn't do this..he leads and she follows.. In full knowledge that the flame throwers are in alignment, here goes: Mario - Yes, compelling me to slow down, speed up, etc as contributions to musicality are certainly part of this. But it can reach much deeper if one chooses to allow it to. Although I give this example in open embrace, we (my regular partner I) dance similarly, but with much more subtlety, in close embrace. And yes, probably 60% of the time we are apilado/close and 40% of the time open - or something like that. Spose I lead a back ocho to my right (follow's standing leg is her left). My lead indicates the degree to which rotates. I.e. - do we keep moving LOD? does she go side to side and we make no progress LOD? etc. As she rotates I step to my right to receive the ocho, but I give the lead indication for her to step prior to my stepping (I generally try to lead so that her foot moves prior to mine.) Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Yes, that TOTALLY breaks frame, but so what? I am however compelled to deal with it, for example by leading her to subsequently pivot 180 deg CCW while I step right outside with my left foot. Now we are back in the embrace, but facing counter LOD. I now deal with it and get back to moving LOD. etc. Possibly not AT, but a hellovalota fun to dance like this: I lead, she follows in her own manner, I deal with it and then lead the next step, and she does something, and I deal with it... etc. Cheers, David _ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
--- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spose that she sees that the floor behind me is clear (we DO NOT run into people or even threaten to!!!) and wants to play a little. She might over-rotate, stepping into me, and compelling my receiving step to actually be counter LOD. She has even been known to WAY over rotate and back secada my left (leaving) foot as I step to receive her ocho. Here, we can see the difference in this discussion. A more skilled follower would suggest an over-rotation and allow you to lead her against the LOD or to a back sacada or something completely different. If she's really good, she might even make you think that it was your idea in the first place. But at any point, she should be able to stop and allow you to do something else or continue with your original plan. Otherwise, she's backleading. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
My question was not a rhetorical one. What is the value? David's tango is what it is no matter what anyone thinks about it. He feels compelled to explain it over and over again. At the end, his tango is what it is and everyone else's as well. So what is the value of extensive explanations! Tango is a dance, and ,as such, is a transitory experience. So whatever ochos or movements that are being discussed, they no longer exist and probably cannot be repeated. So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? If it is a technical issue, then it could be just worked out in class. But what is the value of the verbal explanation? Please let me know because I am not getting it. Nina Quoting Huck Kennedy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the I talk and you listen one that is often presented. Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the I talk and you listen variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Thank you so much for your encouragement about the delete key. It is a lovely feature and I have practiced using it over the years with such enthusiasm that I dislocated a finger. However, I was not complaining about the useless posts. Instead, I asked a question about something that people seem to value. I would like to know what is valuable in extreme analysis of transitory experiences. Quoting Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the I talk and you listen one that is often presented. Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the I talk and you listen variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
