Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I believe that was my wife's experience as well. That the cabeceo is actually a two way thing and really designed to ensure the woman is comfortable with their partner. The main difference I noticed is that women are expected to remain seated (hence their table position is critical) while we men are free to roam around like hungry wolves ;-). Actually that is for the benefit of the women as well, according to my wife, as it is murder standing in tango heels waiting for dances for any length of time apparently. Victor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of musette fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 5:31 AM To: Konstantin Zahariev; Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers I didn't feel at all stuck in BA by the cabaceo, on the contrary I felt free and much more in control of my own destiny. As you say, women can, um, encourage anyone they want to ask them with eye contact, and in the meantime they don't have to accept any dances at any time that they don't want to, for whatever reason. Terri --- Konstantin Zahariev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/15/07, Carol Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. Is this really true? It seems to me the cabeceo is more or less an equal opportunity custom since both women and men can initiate an 'invite' by staring at somebody. I realize the usual line is that only men can invite but with cabeceo, this requires a fairly narrow definition of 'invite'. Realistically, both women and men invite with their eyes, though on the dance floor, after that negotiation, it may appear as if the woman only accepts. Since in BA the cabeceo is used extensively, if not exclusively, I am not yet convinced that women are more stuck than the men in getting dances. With best regards, Konstantin Victoria, Canada ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l CAUTION - Disclaimer * This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be stored on the Infosys e-mail system. ***INFOSYS End of Disclaimer INFOSYS*** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
Just another perspective on this: Victor wrote: I know from personal experience that it is really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs (and sometimes in other places too!) typically if you are not well known by the local dancers. Yes, and there have been horror stories of spending two weeks in BA without dancing at all by some people. It isn't just that they don't dance with tourists or people they don't know; it's more a question of waiting to see if you really know how to dance tango, meaning traditional, social tango and not performance and open embrace stuff, which is basically just showing off to them. If that's all you do, don't expect your glances to be returned, because it will be obvious you are a tourist. I dance and teach traditional tango (close embrace for the historically challenged) and I have never had a problem getting a partner there, although I did have to get on the floor and convince the women that I did know how to dance. I just grabbed the nearest woman (who was a beginner) and managed to struggle through, but at least I was able demonstrate to those watching that I knew. Please heed what iis often repeated on this list. Open embrace tango is not danced in the milongas there (with rare exceptions). Don't expect to impress anyone with ganchos or back sacadas or whatever is the step of the month. You will just look foolish and obviously be a tourist. re taxi dancing; it is hardly a new phenomenon. There were taxi dancers here during the big band days and is not a bad idea if you can afford it. I have been approached about being a taxi dancer for someone who lives in Buenos Aires and comes to New York to visit and doesn't want to sit around at the milongas waiting to be asked. However, if you hire one, you should still know how to dance traditional tango. The real problem is that people, in the U.S. at least, can't even agree on all the different names for the various styles of showing off that is passed off as tango. Salon and tango liso (which evolved during the time of Di Sarli's orchestra and is called that because of it's elegant smooth style - liso means smooth or polished) are often confused with performance, while close embrace which is basically traditional tango (as is milonguero with a little variation) is just considered by people here as another style among many. Go figure! Ironic isn't it, that all these tango stars make all this money by teaching steps that you can't use down there. Caveat emptor. Okay, so dance whatever you want, to whatever music you like, but don't be surprised when you sit around at the BA milongas. Cheers, Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. pardon me, Carol, but this one who responded was very much a woman... I have heard it both ways- a young, pretty lady went from Tokyo to BsAs for a week's stay (36 hours by airplane, mind you!) only to sit around and be ignored for the first four days at the milonga. Anybody remember Larry Carroll's reports from Argentina years ago before he left this list? Something like I dressed young in a light grey silk shirt, went to a milonga full of young people and every time I thought I had caught somebody's attention enough to give her the cabeceo, I realised she was concentrating on looking at someone behind me. Finally I decided to prove to them that I could dance and went onto the dance floor during the break and performed a state-of-the-art giro con lapiz by myself with perfect balance and suave elegance. Still, nothing... I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about who they dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are really good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve to ask them directly. Then, there is the other side: the rich aging Japanese ballerina who spent her time in BA picking men's wandering hands off the side of her breast in the close embrace, the other lady who was offered private lessons by everyone who asked her to dance, the one who was told by an Argentine:If you want to get any dances here, you have to wear sexier clothes and show more skin..., and the man who had a great time dancing with all his fellow tourists... Argentine women have told me that BA milongas can be just as bad as Tokyo, as far as gender balance is concerned, and while a friend regularly dances with them at one milonga full of people from the same age group, he will ignore them completely the next day at another milonga where the women are younger... maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
My apologies, I just noticed that part of the quoted phrase was deleted from my posting. The phrase was ... it its really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs...typically if you are not well known by the local dancers. Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
My mistake, I wasn't reading all the emails carefully enough. Sorry-- Astrid wrote: I notice it's the men who are responding to this. Are we talking about female taxi dancers, or male taxi dancers? Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. pardon me, Carol, but this one who responded was very much a woman... I have heard it both ways- a young, pretty lady went from Tokyo to BsAs for a week's stay (36 hours by airplane, mind you!) only to sit around and be ignored for the first four days at the milonga. Anybody remember Larry Carroll's reports from Argentina years ago before he -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com commercialization • merchandising • distribution ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] taxi dancers
Hi everybody, What happens in Buenos Aires is that no good dancer (either man or woman) will dance with somebody that she/he haven't seen dancing before. That means that if you want to be invited to dance at a milonga without renting a Taxi dancer, you should go to a class first (many milongas have classes before the ball) so as to meet some people who is going to stay afterwards. This is a good way to be sure that somebody will ask you to dance/ accept your invitation. Best, María [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: My apologies, I just noticed that part of the quoted phrase was deleted from my posting. The phrase was ... it its really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs...typically if you are not well known by the local dancers. Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Los referentes más importantes en compra/venta de autos se juntaron: Demotores y Yahoo!.Ahora comprar o vender tu auto es más fácil. Visitá http://ar.autos.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
On Oct 15, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Astrid wrote: I have heard German men say that portenas are really strict about who they dance with and you hardly get a chance with them, unless you are really good, and they will brusquely turn you down if you have the nerve to ask them directly. ... maybe people could share more stories on this horror subject? ; ) It's quite simple, actually figure out how to dance, and you will get dances. The foreigner guys who can't get dances simply don't know how to dance the way the Argentine women want. If you show up to an afternoon milonga able to dance the way they do, then they accept you as a tango dancer. You get the first few dances, and the whispers go around the tables, Ooh, check out the new guy/girl, and they are looking right at you for a dance. You sometimes get the surprise: You don't dance like a foreigner, which maybe says something about all the bad foreigners out there. One correction. The issue isn't about being really good. Merely good is sufficient if you know how to dance appropriate to the particular Buenos Aires milonga. Overwhelmingly, this means milonguero or close salon, but some people claim there are a couple milongas or practicas where other styles are appropriate. Decent does NOT mean you have to know lots of giros and steps. Decent means: - Good embrace, confident movements, boldness (male and femaie) - Ability to navigate and deal with crowded conditions - Know the music, know the music, know the music Notice that steps, technique and posture aren't on the list. Frankly, a lot of Argentines are lacking in technique. But, they absolutely know the music and the embrace. Tango is about energy, presence, feel, musicality, not about style or steps. Steps are just the things you do while doing tango. I have made several trips in Buenos Aires over 12 years. I experienced a lot of failure the first time I went down. I returned determined to figure out how to do it right, and on subsequent trips I have had a lot of success. It does take a few days for people to start recognizing you. There are usually more women at a milonga in Buenos Aires, so the men can choose who they want, for good or shallow reasons. Some of the guys are really, really shallow. One reason they prey on the foreigners is the local women have stopped dancing with them. Another reason is that they are just hustling: lessons, dates, money. Almost all the Argentines who walk up to the table are in these categories, hustlers, creeps or can't dance. I think this is more of a problem in the milongas attended by lots of foreigners. Here's a true example of rude behavior. He gives her a really good first couple of dances. The next dance he causes her to stumble, and at the end of the set offers his business card for tango lessons to help her with her problems. Tom Stermitz Denver San Diego Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com http://Tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
Tom wrote: Here's a true example of rude behavior. He gives her a really good first couple of dances. The next dance he causes her to stumble, and at the end of the set offers his business card for tango lessons to help her with her problems. this one sounds eerily familiar... I believe, I remember it from the days when I took lots of workshops here with various visiting Argentine teachers, and some of them would use this trick to fish for private lessons (make me feel insecure and inadequate and then offer me a privada on better balance etc.) , and others, once I had received a firm base in training from other teachers, would attempt to thus put me in my place during a milonga to convince me that I still had a lot to learn (from them, of course...). Thanks, Tom, this is the first time I see my suspicions confirmed. It is so long ago, I had almost forgotten. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
I didn't feel at all stuck in BA by the cabaceo, on the contrary I felt free and much more in control of my own destiny. As you say, women can, um, encourage anyone they want to ask them with eye contact, and in the meantime they don't have to accept any dances at any time that they don't want to, for whatever reason. Terri --- Konstantin Zahariev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/15/07, Carol Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to me that it's the women who are really stuck in BsAs, because the codes do not allow them to ask anybody. Is this really true? It seems to me the cabeceo is more or less an equal opportunity custom since both women and men can initiate an 'invite' by staring at somebody. I realize the usual line is that only men can invite but with cabeceo, this requires a fairly narrow definition of 'invite'. Realistically, both women and men invite with their eyes, though on the dance floor, after that negotiation, it may appear as if the woman only accepts. Since in BA the cabeceo is used extensively, if not exclusively, I am not yet convinced that women are more stuck than the men in getting dances. With best regards, Konstantin Victoria, Canada ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] taxi dancers
Traditional Tango is both in open and close embrace,(V-shaped) constantly switching between the two. The only style danced permanently in close embrace(squarre) is the so called milonguero style , which is not milonguero or traditional at all. It was created in the sixties and golden age milongueros never danced it.Quite the contrary,they despise it and called it Caquero or Petitero. Buenos Aires is a very large and diverse city. Open embrace, Salon and Nuevo are indeed danced in many places and there is nothing foreign about them.. It all depends who you ask, where you go, when you go, with whom, the music , floor conditions and your partner. Back sacadas are beautifull and perfectly social if you know how to do them and moment is right. To argue against them only shows your own limitations and your zeal to pass them on to your students. In the U.S, in Buenos Aires and in Jupiter Gabriel - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 6:21 AM Subject: [Tango-L] taxi dancers Just another perspective on this: Victor wrote: I know from personal experience that it is really difficult to get dances initially in BsAs (and sometimes in other places too!) typically if you are not well known by the local dancers. Yes, and there have been horror stories of spending two weeks in BA without dancing at all by some people. It isn't just that they don't dance with tourists or people they don't know; it's more a question of waiting to see if you really know how to dance tango, meaning traditional, social tango and not performance and open embrace stuff, which is basically just showing off to them. If that's all you do, don't expect your glances to be returned, because it will be obvious you are a tourist. I dance and teach traditional tango (close embrace for the historically challenged) and I have never had a problem getting a partner there, although I did have to get on the floor and convince the women that I did know how to dance. I just grabbed the nearest woman (who was a beginner) and managed to struggle through, but at least I was able demonstrate to those watching that I knew. Please heed what iis often repeated on this list. Open embrace tango is not danced in the milongas there (with rare exceptions). Don't expect to impress anyone with ganchos or back sacadas or whatever is the step of the month. You will just look foolish and obviously be a tourist. re taxi dancing; it is hardly a new phenomenon. There were taxi dancers here during the big band days and is not a bad idea if you can afford it. I have been approached about being a taxi dancer for someone who lives in Buenos Aires and comes to New York to visit and doesn't want to sit around at the milongas waiting to be asked. However, if you hire one, you should still know how to dance traditional tango. The real problem is that people, in the U.S. at least, can't even agree on all the different names for the various styles of showing off that is passed off as tango. Salon and tango liso (which evolved during the time of Di Sarli's orchestra and is called that because of it's elegant smooth style - liso means smooth or polished) are often confused with performance, while close embrace which is basically traditional tango (as is milonguero with a little variation) is just considered by people here as another style among many. Go figure! Ironic isn't it, that all these tango stars make all this money by teaching steps that you can't use down there. Caveat emptor. Okay, so dance whatever you want, to whatever music you like, but don't be surprised when you sit around at the BA milongas. Cheers, Charles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
