Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Most none Argies are attracted to tango because of the theatrical steps and performances they have seen in a show or movie. So that is the excitement which brings them into to studios to learn tango, not always but that's the way I have seen it over the last ten years. After I had been learning tango for about 6 months from a general ballroom dance studio which was responding to demand created by the movie "The Tango lesson". What was being taught, well met the needs of the students, but as I went on to find, it was one hell of a long way from the tango as danced in the milongas in BsAs. About six months into my tango journey, a visiting tutor from AR was teaching a huge class of students, dancing as far apart as they could get without losing a grip on their partners, the guys holding onto their iron frames which they had been taught to build to be able to lead their partners. I can remember the AR tutor getting pretty frustrated about what he was seeing and there were heated discussions with the studio owners. Julio stopped the class from its dance activity and directed the class couples to face each other, lower their arms to waist height and hold each others elbows and to start walking in line of dance, no dance just walk. After three tango tracks he stopped the class and instructed all couples to put their hands behind their backs and connect with their partners with just chest contact. This was met with shock horror, but we had all paid lots of money for these classes and with great reluctance complied with the instruction. Most of us were with people we knew, so the social impact was not yet at its peak. After three more tracks of just walking, we were instructed to change partners. I now had a woman who I had never met, didn't know her name or where she was from leaning on my chest. It was overwhelming!! Nothing to do with sex, it was so foreign to all local social contact and custom. One hour later it was behind us and we started to learn tango. Ten years later I dance simple close embrace in what's generally called milonguero style. When I dance, I dance for myself and my partner, I am not dancing for attention or approval from anyone else. Though it's real nice to get a little hand squeeze from a milonguera in BsAs and a bien, bien at the end of a tanda. If you are enjoying however you dance, go for it. However, if you want bagels, go to NYC, if you want tulips and windmills go to Holland, if you want tango, go to BsAs. Robert Robert Ramsey-Turner Crown Associates Limited Environmental Consultants 4/55B Rautawhiri Road Helensville 0800 Auckland New Zealand (Office)+64 9 420 7888 (or cell) +64 27 284 6620 rober...@woosh.co.nz -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Shahrukh Merchant Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 11:19 p.m. To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace meaning of life asks: > have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing a more open embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they dance? enjoy sliding their bodies past each other? enjoy the larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic dance permited by a more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more open embrace permits, even encourages? I'm not sure what the point is. I've considered that people enjoy ski jumping, demolition derby, flying trapeze, and other visually dramatic activities. But they don't call it Tango and they certainly don't do it at milongas. > have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing a more open embrace, larger figures and a more dramatic dance might improve your recruitment and retention? especially among younger dancers? Unfortunately, way too many "Tango" teachers seem to have indeed considered this and found it lucrative, with the result that in some communities that is the only thing that people are being exposed to as "tango." However, it's capitalism and free markets at its finest, and I would support it at that level. Unfortunately, preservation of culture and art forms is not the forte of the free market system, where "New and Improved [sic]!" continues to be the marketing methodology of choice. But if higher recruitment is all that one is after, Salsa may be a better option. Most places in the world (excluding Buenos Aires and possibly a few others) that have a thriving Tango community have an even larger Salsa community. > have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened (especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on them Well, not being either a good looking female nor a pack of wolves (perhaps a tiny fraction of one rather socialized wolf :-)), I would have to say that no, I have never considered this. > and this destroys your retention, especially among younger females? ... > hesitation to have t
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
I agree with Jeff. It seems that there is a lot of projection going on in this thread, some of which may be accurate. A sense of "judgement" seems to underlie this discussion, as if one is better than the other. That doesn't help anything. It is what it is. There are some people who only dance well in open-embrace. It doesn't mean that there's a fear of close embrace. Even if it does, so what? Let them dance open. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Tue, 9/21/10, Jeff wrote: > From: Jeff > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace > To: tango-l@mit.edu > Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 6:22 PM > On 09/17/2010 08:38 AM, macfro...@aol.com > wrote: > > > Ok, I'll play Devil's Advocate. In many cultures -- > including > Anglo-Saxon ones -- respecting personal space is the most > basic way to > show you acknowledge that the other person is indeed a > person. Crossing > into somebody's personal space without their permission is > one of the > easiest ways to register contempt for them. In many > cultures (including > the US) invading someone's personal space is exactly how to > pick a > fight. So yes, in other countries it might not been seen in > the same > way, but the fact of the matter is that this is strongly > ingrained for a > good reason and if the dancers are having a hard time > overcoming it, it > is most likely due to the fact they are showing very polite > and > respectful treatment of their partner, which is a good > thing. Your > assessment that they are "afraid of the embrace" > strikes me as fatuous > and culturally grievously insensitive. I'm all for > understanding and > embracing other cultures, but it should work both ways, > shouldn't it? > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
I would agree this is very correct. I would also add that in addition to the possibility of emotional fear that beginners may have, there is also the fear of getting stepped on by the man or stepping on the man by the beginner who is untrained in Close Embrace. Trained leaders who respect the dance and respect women will recognize that fact nearly immediately and not just grab a lady tight to him. In beginner group classes or practicas, if I go to dance with a lady who is new, I respect that and don't just grab her close to me. Close embrace must be taught and learned and if she hasn't had training in that and become comfortable in it yet, I respect that and just dance open and give her a clear lead so she can have success learning her role in the dance for that lesson. At a milonga, I usually wouldn't dance with a lady until she is advanced enough to dance well in close embrace and has a nice walk. (Exception would be if the milonga is VERY lightly attended and she is getting few or no dances but seems eager to try. And then I still wouldn't be just grabbing her close against her will.) El Stevito de Gainesville On 9/17/2010 9:38 AM, macfro...@aol.com wrote: > The tango embrace is the same as the embrace of someone you love, even though > you may not know or care about the person. It is the dance position. In my > experience as a tango dancer and teacher, many "foreign" dancers, especially > those from Anglo-Saxon traditions, are indeed afraid of the embrace. They are > not used to being that close to someone who is not their sweetheart or close > relative, and sometimes their emotions get all confused after a tanda of > moving together as one hugged so close by a stranger. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
On 09/17/2010 08:38 AM, macfro...@aol.com wrote: > > The tango embrace is the same as the embrace of someone you love, even > though you may not know or care about the person. It is the dance > position. In my experience as a tango dancer and teacher, many > "foreign" dancers, especially those from Anglo-Saxon traditions, are > indeed afraid of the embrace. They are not used to being that close to > someone who is not their sweetheart or close relative, and sometimes > their emotions get all confused after a tanda of moving together as > one hugged so close by a stranger. Ok, I'll play Devil's Advocate. In many cultures -- including Anglo-Saxon ones -- respecting personal space is the most basic way to show you acknowledge that the other person is indeed a person. Crossing into somebody's personal space without their permission is one of the easiest ways to register contempt for them. In many cultures (including the US) invading someone's personal space is exactly how to pick a fight. So yes, in other countries it might not been seen in the same way, but the fact of the matter is that this is strongly ingrained for a good reason and if the dancers are having a hard time overcoming it, it is most likely due to the fact they are showing very polite and respectful treatment of their partner, which is a good thing. Your assessment that they are "afraid of the embrace" strikes me as fatuous and culturally grievously insensitive. I'm all for understanding and embracing other cultures, but it should work both ways, shouldn't it? What's more, women should be allowed to set the distance for the dance so they are in their own comfort zone. If I am dancing with a woman for the first time and she starts in open embrace, the last thing I will ever do is force the issue, even though I really have no idea how to do open embrace. Women should never feel compelled to have any male at close quarters if they don't want to. What would you do? Later, when she feels more comfortable (which might be all of 1 minute) the embrace can be adjusted to where it needs to be. I do not disagree that close embrace makes for a better dance, easier body mechanics, etc, but I do dispute strongly that it's all due to people being uptight or weird. Several of my favorite partners are much more relaxed around me than other dancers since, I think, they realized that I was not trying to force the issue. So to get them to do the embrace close means finding partners who are comfortable with each other at that distance. If they are able to do it in that context but not in others there is probably a lot more going on than just the embrace and telling them to dance closer will probably never really work. Jeff ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The fear of close embrace
Here in Mexico, a second grade school teacher was telling me about her day in class, today. One of her observations of her new class is that she cannot hug the six children from the USA goodbye because they act like she is infecting them and they even run away, whereas the Mexican children love it and want it. I think this is somehow relevant to our discussion on the fear of the close embrace in adults. ... www.theopendoorway.org/audiovisual.html www.mario7.deviantart.com/ www.youtube.com/user/nacotete www.tangoandchaos.org THE WAR IS MAKING YOU POOR! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
I don't know where you guys live that you see only performance teachers.
Basics are plentiful here in NYC. Just this month we have Maria
Olivera & Gustavo Saba, Maxi Gluzman. Melina and Detlef pass through
now and then, how basic can you get hehe. We have Robin Thomas who
travels, and many others who make the basics fun for students.
Teachers of all stripes will be happy to teach fundamentals IF THE
ORGANIZER ASKS THEM TO. Heck, at the Baltimore Tango Element of all
places, I took basics from Sebastian & Mariana (musicality and timing
in a fwd ocho with a corte), Silvina and Oliver (milonga basics), and
Pablo & Noelia (embellishments and an easy cool 2 fwd and 1sidestep
pattern). Chicho, eeh not so basic :).
I am an organizer of a festival. I have over the years seen 2500
participants choose an average of 4 classes each. What goes fastest is
whizzbang moves for intermediate to interm-adv. The basics classes
fill up only when the whizzbang ones are sold out. What to do? The
whole idea is to have fun, not to legislate how other people dance.
Many of you took classes from the sequins types, and with the years
and the miles came the wisdom that less is more. Without the more, you
might not have arrived at less at all. You would have been bored out
of your minds as beginners doing nothing but shuffling along in a
practice embrace to scratchy music with a doubtful beat, lesson after
lesson, wondering whatever on earth you thought was so exciting about
the Argentine Tango. The sandwich-stepover-static gancho combo looked
like a real thrill then!! Now on the other side of same, you sniff and
roll your eyes, and walk to the music, and it's good.
So anyway, my request to the teachers I book for festivals is to sneak
in solid basics, proper turns and musicality, and top it off with the
promised whizzbang move (done better thanks to those basics). So far,
not a single complaint.
T
On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Jack Dylan wrote:
>
> In my experience, it's very difficult to find ... "traveling teachers who
> insistently teach solid, clean basics". That's because most {all?]
> traveling teachers are also performers and they don't dance social
> tango.
>
> And what's more basic than the embrace? I've been to Buenos Aires
> where pretty much all the ladies in the milongas drape their left arm
> around the man's shoulders. But In my community there's now an
> epidemic amongst the ladies to adopt an embrace where her left
> hand is in the middle of the man's back or even lower. They copy
> this from the traveling teachers.
>
> But, surely, it needs 2 to make an embrace and now it feels like
> I'm embracing the lady but she's not embracing me. All the 'feeling'
> is gone.
>
> Jack
>
>
___
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Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
In response to my statement: > You should come to Buenos Aires and watch the glow on the faces of the > "younger females" who just got invited to dance by one of the "old men" > milongueros ... Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > Yes but would they rather be dancing with their own age group or not? Who? The "younger females" or the "old men milongueros"? My observation is that the OMMs dance with their favourite local milongueras (of all ages, but very good dancers) and "pretty young foreign girls" (who are at least good enough to keep them from looking bad). As for the YFs, you'd have to ask them. I've been in Argentina long enough to have lost (or perhaps given up on) the ability to interpret what a woman really wants (while continuing the endless pursuit of trying). :-) > My experience is that the men have more of an issue with this than the > women: they prefer to dance and socialize with their own age group. Not sure that I know what you mean. That the men only want to dance with women of similar age, neither much younger nor much older, but that women are more age-neutral? I guess one sees all combinations, but I haven't noticed a pattern like the one you suggest. Groups of friends who come together *tend* to be of similar ages in Buenos Aires (and no doubt elsewhere), but this is hardly so rigid. At the last milonga I went to, at El Beso, the women in our group ranged from age 26 to 80, and I danced with all except the 26-year-old (who had taken her first class that day and was "just watching"). But admittedly that's not a typical group and was somewhat of an impromptu amalgamation. Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Yes but would they rather be dancing with their own age group or not? My experience is that the men have more of an issue with this than the women: they prefer to dance and socialize with their own age group. Vince In Melbourne -Original Message- You should come to Buenos Aires and watch the glow on the faces of the "younger females" who just got invited to dance by one of the "old men" milongueros--if their personal boundaries were being invaded, they certainly weren't showing it. Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
meaning of life asks: > have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing a more open > embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they dance? enjoy sliding their > bodies past each other? enjoy the larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic > dance permited by a more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more open > embrace permits, even encourages? I'm not sure what the point is. I've considered that people enjoy ski jumping, demolition derby, flying trapeze, and other visually dramatic activities. But they don't call it Tango and they certainly don't do it at milongas. > have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing a more open > embrace, larger figures and a more dramatic dance might improve your > recruitment and retention? especially among younger dancers? Unfortunately, way too many "Tango" teachers seem to have indeed considered this and found it lucrative, with the result that in some communities that is the only thing that people are being exposed to as "tango." However, it's capitalism and free markets at its finest, and I would support it at that level. Unfortunately, preservation of culture and art forms is not the forte of the free market system, where "New and Improved [sic]!" continues to be the marketing methodology of choice. But if higher recruitment is all that one is after, Salsa may be a better option. Most places in the world (excluding Buenos Aires and possibly a few others) that have a thriving Tango community have an even larger Salsa community. > have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened > (especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on them Well, not being either a good looking female nor a pack of wolves (perhaps a tiny fraction of one rather socialized wolf :-)), I would have to say that no, I have never considered this. > and this destroys your retention, especially among younger females? ... > hesitation to have their "personal boundries" invaided by "stinky old men"? This I have not seen either. They generally learn rather quickly to avoid the predators and unless they have led highly sheltered lives, Tango is hardly likely to be the first place they encounter them. And if your hypothesis were correct, communities with a strong tradition of close-embrace dancing would have a dearth of your aforementioned "younger females," which phenomenon I have seen no evidence of (nor heard of anecdotally). "Stinky" men and women tend to be avoided by all, with the possibly exception of those who are recovering from bad colds. As far as "old," while there is natural tendency for people to mix with others in their own age group, it is actually a nice thing about Tango that there is actually more mixing of age groups. You should come to Buenos Aires and watch the glow on the faces of the "younger females" who just got invited to dance by one of the "old men" milongueros--if their personal boundaries were being invaded, they certainly weren't showing it. Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
On 9/20/2010 1:53 AM, Jack Dylan wrote: > I've been to Buenos Aires > where pretty much all the ladies in the milongas drape their left arm > around the man's shoulders. Same for me. For social dancing, this where I prefer the ladies left arm: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4740969&l=ed5869a729&id=783634030 Last January we had several local ladies come back from the Atlanta festival with left hand in the kidney embrace, but the local teachers "corrected" that in a few months. El Stevito de Gainesville ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
In my experience, it's very difficult to find ... "traveling teachers who
insistently teach solid, clean basics". That's because most {all?]
traveling teachers are also performers and they don't dance social
tango.
And what's more basic than the embrace? I've been to Buenos Aires
where pretty much all the ladies in the milongas drape their left arm
around the man's shoulders. But In my community there's now an
epidemic amongst the ladies to adopt an embrace where her left
hand is in the middle of the man's back or even lower. They copy
this from the traveling teachers.
But, surely, it needs 2 to make an embrace and now it feels like
I'm embracing the lady but she's not embracing me. All the 'feeling'
is gone.
Jack
- Original Message
> From: Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net
> Bring in
> traveling teachers who insistently teach solid, clean basics!
>
___
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Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
This reminds me of the time I (as the milonga organizer) had to tell a man to stop teaching on the floor. He was respectful to me and said "No problem - it stops right now" That was nice. (Other times men have blamed me and never returned to the milonga.) Then he went right over to my boyfriend and said "Who was that b who complained about me giving her some tips? Because I'm never going to dance with that b___ again!" The point is - women would love to stand up for themselves and tell men to stop acting like such cads. How should they do that without having bad manners themselves?? Loisa Donnay Sergey wrote: > And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at > all with my hat. > Alexis wrote: Pet peeve: "teaching/lecturing" at a milonga, in the middle of the ronda. I sometimes really can't understand why the unfortunate (usually female) victim doesn't kick the offender where it hurts. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
It has been proven in recent scientific studies that the sweat on the hat causes it to shrink around the mans head cutting off necessary blood flow to the brain sending him into uncontrollable gyrations often associated with nuevo tango. In a message dated 9/17/2010 9:46:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, tangoman...@cavtel.net writes: Trini: Show some sensitivity. You don't know what's going on under the hat. The Rogaine might not have kicked in yet!! It only works on 85% of the men. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" To: "tango-l" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace Your shampoo not working for you? Try Pantene. :o I would think wearing a hat would cause one to unconsciously tighten the muscles in the neck, which would inhibit the spiraling of the spine. It's a subtle but important thing. Trini --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Sergey Kazachenko wrote: And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Trini: Show some sensitivity. You don't know what's going on under the hat. The Rogaine might not have kicked in yet!! It only works on 85% of the men. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" To: "tango-l" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace Your shampoo not working for you? Try Pantene. :o I would think wearing a hat would cause one to unconsciously tighten the muscles in the neck, which would inhibit the spiraling of the spine. It's a subtle but important thing. Trini --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Sergey Kazachenko wrote: And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
I believe the term "close embrace" as it relates to tango was coined by a native English speaker to distinguish it from the "hold" of ballroom. An embrace is an embrace. Do you "embrace" someone at arm's length in normal life? The tango embrace is the same as the embrace of someone you love, even though you may not know or care about the person. It is the dance position. In my experience as a tango dancer and teacher, many "foreign" dancers, especially those from Anglo-Saxon traditions, are indeed afraid of the embrace. They are not used to being that close to someone who is not their sweetheart or close relative, and sometimes their emotions get all confused after a tanda of moving together as one hugged so close by a stranger. The embrace is the position for dancing tango--it's the base for all of the emotions and feelings that arise from the music and feeling connected, not only to your partner, but to the universe. There is no such thing as an "open embrace." If you can stampede a herd of elephants between the couple, there is no embrace. Tango is danced heart to heart. The beating of two hearts united together is the rhythm of tango. And men wearing hats when they dance? Well that's fine on stage during the historical bits, especially in the comedy milonga that is always part of the show. Wearing a costume in a milonga while dancing socially? Ridiculously affected. And one other thing, if that hat is worn a lot for dancing, it usually smells really bad. cherie http://tangocherir.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
What's going on here? I don't understand. Why are people with "boundary issues", or those who want to perform or compete, dancing Argentine tango anyway? Aren't there other dances they would prefer? Didn't they find out that tango was not for them at the first lesson? I think much of the blame here lies with the teachers. Teachers need to teach close embrace from the beginning. Not only does it turn out better dancers more quickly, it lets people know what tango is about in the beginning, not 6 months in when they have more of an incentive to force their idea of tango on the community, rather than adopting tango as it is. Tango classes should weed out people who are really not interested in tango, don't you think? Oh, yes - in my very biased opinion, it would help if all teachers knew what they were doing before they started to teach. I hear too many stories of teachers who only know fancy figures, and can't comfortably dance close, and don't visit Buenos Aires. Those that don't even play tango music in class. Of course that's how they are going to teach. Of course they, and their students, could potentially change a community adversely. Prominent members of the community can help, though. As a teacher who has been teaching for over 10 years, I get frustrated when I see students going to teachers who have 2 or 3 years of experience, because they are "new", or dance fancy figures. It's human nature to run to the latest or fanciest thing, but learning to teach tango takes some time. Understanding the music takes time. So I selfishly ask - support those teachers who turn out good dancers! Go to their classes, and recommend them to others! Bring in traveling teachers who insistently teach solid, clean basics! And who teach tango. Loisa Donnay Minneapolis, MN - Original Message - From: "Sandhill Crane" I agree that boundaries, wherever you set them, are a serious issue, and it's true that close embrace is just too close for some people. I don't have any problem with dancing in an open embrace. Maybe I usually prefer a close embrace but I don't have anything to gain by imposing on my partner. As long as we have good communication in the embrace, which is possible with open or close embrace, we have a good dance, from my point of view. I have to take issue with your suggestions about bigger figures, though. One can approach the essence of tango through figures, but that's definitely the slow way to do it. If you start out doing figures, you might never get beyond that, and I do believe there is much more to tango than just the steps. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Your shampoo not working for you? Try Pantene. :o I would think wearing a hat would cause one to unconsciously tighten the muscles in the neck, which would inhibit the spiraling of the spine. It's a subtle but important thing. Trini --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Sergey Kazachenko wrote: And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Well, if I don't remove my glasses I'll be crashing with everybody, my sight is that bad. And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
--- On Thu, 9/16/10, Sergey Kazachenko wrote: Nancy, While I agree with most of your points, I have to ask - what is wrong with HATS? Of course, I mean, when the height difference is large enough so that the hat does not violate the closeness of the abrazo. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) I was taught that a gentleman removes his hat in the presence of a lady unless his topper is of religious significance. But maybe the sun is very strong where you dance tango? ;-) Most gentlemen in BsAs also remove their glasses so they do not poke our eyes or cheeks. N ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Nancy, While I agree with most of your points, I have to ask - what is wrong with HATS? Of course, I mean, when the height difference is large enough so that the hat does not violate the closeness of the abrazo. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) >please observe the codes of our milongas or I might have to teach you a little >R-E-S-P-E-C-T. The "stinky old men" know how to treat ladies and they always >are fresh and have on clean, pressed clothes, with fresh haircuts and freshly >shaved faces. They are never sweaty or dirty or wearing outlandish costumes >or HATS for cripe's sake! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Dear Tangonista: To answer your question below, I think YOU have issues. My message was directed to dancers who want to advance to close embrace but feel something is holding them back. Nothing was directed to those who only want to dance open. Have you ever considered that those who dance open take up more space than those who dance close? Have you ever considered that larger figures lead to collisions because leaders don't pay attention to navigation? Close embrace isn't for everybody and I wouldn't maul nor threaten a woman into dancing close embrace. Some women look for a warm invitation and respond by dancing close embrace. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: "meaning of life" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 3:52 PM > have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing a more open > embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they dance? enjoy sliding their > bodies past each other? enjoy the larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic > dance permited by a more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more > open embrace permits, even encourages? > > have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing a more open > embrace, larger figures and a more dramatic dance might improve your > recruitment and retention? especially among younger dancers? > > have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened > (especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on > them DEMANDING close embrace dances and belittling their hesitation to > have their "personal boundries" invaided by "stinky old men"? and this > destroys your retention, especially among younger females? > > i'm just asking. who is it that has the issues? > > The Tangonista ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
--- On Thu, 9/16/10, meaning of life wrote: > have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing > a more open embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they > dance? enjoy sliding their bodies past each other? enjoy the > larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic dance permited by a > more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more open > embrace permits, even encourages? > > have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing > a more open embrace, larger figures and a more > dramatic dance might improve your recruitment and retention? > especially among younger dancers? I agree that boundaries, wherever you set them, are a serious issue, and it's true that close embrace is just too close for some people. I don't have any problem with dancing in an open embrace. Maybe I usually prefer a close embrace but I don't have anything to gain by imposing on my partner. As long as we have good communication in the embrace, which is possible with open or close embrace, we have a good dance, from my point of view. I have to take issue with your suggestions about bigger figures, though. One can approach the essence of tango through figures, but that's definitely the slow way to do it. If you start out doing figures, you might never get beyond that, and I do believe there is much more to tango than just the steps. Perhaps open versus close embrace is a misleading way to characterize the situation. The things that seem important are the music, your partner, the pista, and the social experience of the milonga. Showing off at a milonga isn't really consistent with that. I can't really think of a catch-phrase to sum it up. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
On 16/09/2010 22:46, RonTango wrote:
[I can understand why you wanted to comment on the other
poster, who could be read to imply that *all* the qualities
he ascribed to "open embrace" somehow were inaccessible
to people with different styles, but I can't let the pendulum
swing entirely back to the other side either.]
> whereas in the milongas of Buenos Aires the
> rare person dancing in an 'open embrace' is a misguided tourist.
Some practicas have porteños dancing in embraces that are decidedly
open. Somehow, I think they wouldn't agree being labeled
"misguided tourists".
A misguided tourist doesn't know what embrace to use when. But
many (in my opinion not so misguided) porteños know darn well
how to dance where, and even how to dance to what music (even
within the space of "classical tango", lest you accuse me
of speaking about electropunknewbeathouseraggamuffingangstatango.)
> Without the close embrace it is not Argentine Tango,
I know at least three or four embraces (depending on the different
angles between the bodies, the amount of leaning, how much it all
is allowed to vary,...) that I'd personally still call close. Since
at least one of them is with the two embracers close but with each
of them on his and her axis, how much space exactly makes it "no
longer close embrace"? Should the tango police bring vernier
calipers?
> it is 'Tango for Export',
It is true that "Tango for Export" exists (and is
even danced by porteños who have to feed their kids),
and it is also an overgeneralisation to say that "it" - whatever
differs from one particular narrowly defined embrace - is merely
tango for export.
There have always been many styles of tango. Of course,
each porteño can entertain you for hours on why his style is the
Only True One, but somehow these people mix and rub shoulders,
and are fairly tolerant (up to a point) of the "others", if not
in words, certainly in deeds (a bit like soccer fans of a club
have to put up with there being other soccer teams, or there'd
be no games). And none, in his heart, would dream of
ostracising the other-styled porteños or shipping them
all to Europe.
Will you have "tourists" pick up something and run with it,
gutting whatever they run with from the very soul of it?
Of course.
That doesn't mean there's One True Style or that *any* minute
deviation from any perceived orthodoxy is suddenly automatically
"not tango". Tango's a social dance, with all that implies
(and thank God for that!), including the fact that there is
no authority to define an orthodoxy very rigidly.
> The tango of the milongas of Buenos Aires
I still tend to think of this ("THE tango of the milongas of
Buenos Aires") as a mythical beast, housed in the Platonic
world of ideas, not in Buenos Aires.
There are many milongas and up to a point each one has its own tango,
and if there are N good pair of dancers on the dance floor, each
milonga really has N tangos. It's a dialect continuum, and one
without a written form cast in stone. And the dialect continuum
has also evolved over time; people don't dance "like it was 1899".
You can fill pages of debate (and get many papers and citations)
discussing whether "hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase
hic enda thu" is Old Dutch or Old Kentish, and to a certain
point everyone arguing for seemingly irreconcilable viewpoints
will be "right" because that's the way dialect continua function.
> is a man embracing a woman and walking
> to classic tango music,
Well, *an* embrace is certainly necessary (as one of the central
tenets is that it is a pure improvisational dance, you need an
embrace or you can't lead and follow). But even you don't define
"embrace" here as "close embrace" (whatever that is, see above).
> respecting the space of others on the floor.
That's certainly part of tango (or more general, civil behaviour in
*any* form of social dance; I dont think people who dance "Valse
Musette" enjoy being knocked off the dance floor more than tango
dancers.)
> The person who has issues is the person who comes to the dance with prior
> issues. Tango in close embrace does not corrupt a decent person.
Neither does tango (within the parameters you did set above) in open
embrace, if there really *is* an embrace (it *is* indeed inexcusable
to use the fact the "embrace" is open just to utterly
ignore it and throw the follower around like a bag of potatoes
while you walk whatever way you want without leading anything
properly).
If some people are corrupted, I think it's the attitude, or even
the mere lack of experience, not the particular embrace, and you can't
just amalgamate everything or say the embrace caused it all.
Open embracers are often more vulnerable to a particular danger
(that of thinking that "freedom" is the same as "anything
goes", and that someone who tells them that something in
their dance is jarring makes him a "tango nazi") - but that
is an overgeneralisation and the danger is not the embrace.
I see a lot of "corrupted" p
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
- Original Message > From: meaning of life > have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened >(especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on them >DEMANDING close embrace dances and belittling their hesitation to have their >"personal boundries" invaided by "stinky old men"? and this destroys your >retention, especially among younger females? I guess this means I am not young enough or good-looking enough because what I get from those younger nuevo females is a kick, an interception of cabeceos meant for me or way-laying of my partner even as we are walking onto the floor for a tanda. On more than one occasion, they even said "What? You would rather dance with her than with me?" Nice. And I don't care if that is the way you do it in NYC or Portland or LA. When you are in my tango homes, you will please observe the codes of our milongas or I might have to teach you a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T. The "stinky old men" know how to treat ladies and they always are fresh and have on clean, pressed clothes, with fresh haircuts and freshly shaved faces. They are never sweaty or dirty or wearing outlandish costumes or HATS for cripe's sake! And they don't have to watch their feet to dance - they know where my feet and their feet are so they watch the other dancers around them instead of the floor. That's how they avoid crashing into other dancers. Please, keep your good-looking young women away from my old menif you are man enough and a good enough dancer. Nancy ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
- Original Message > From: meaning of life > > have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing a more open >embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they dance? enjoy sliding their >bodies past each other? enjoy the larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic >dance >permited by a more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more open embrace > >permits, even encourages? Yes, I've considered that many people prefer dancing stage tango rather than social tango on the milonga dance floor. I have considered that outside of Argentina many people prefer to avoid the embrace, dance with space between them, and call it 'Argentine Tango' whereas in the milongas of Buenos Aires the rare person dancing in an 'open embrace' is a misguided tourist. Without the close embrace it is not Argentine Tango, it is 'Tango for Export', a version of tango that is adapted to the culture of the nation to which tango is exported. By breaking open the embrace, Argentine Tango becomes just another ballroom dance. > have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing a more open >embrace, larger figures and a more dramatic dance might improve your >recruitment and retention? especially among younger dancers? Yes, it will. So will playing electrotango or gypsy music or Sting in a milonga so people can mimic stage tango steps. Adapt tango to foreign tastes and it will be easy to attract people, but they won't understand tango. The tango of the milongas of Buenos Aires is a man embracing a woman and walking to classic tango music, respecting the space of others on the floor. Getting outside of one's ethnocentric worldview and understanding what the tango culture of Buenos Aires offers provides a new and rewarding experience. If we have to destroy just to attract people who can't make the transition, then we are sacrificing the potential benefits of embracing tango argentino. > have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened >(especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on them >DEMANDING close embrace dances and belittling their hesitation to have their >"personal boundries" invaided by "stinky old men"? and this destroys your >retention, especially among younger females? Actually, I've seen more slimy varmint sexual predators dancing nuevo and stage tango than dancing tango de salon. What a generalization!! I suppose we need to stop hugging each other for fear of introducing lewd thoughts. > > i'm just asking. who is it that has the issues? The person who has issues is the person who comes to the dance with prior issues. Tango in close embrace does not corrupt a decent person.. Ron ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
have you all ever considered that some people enjoy dancing a more open embrace? enjoy seeing each others faces as they dance? enjoy sliding their bodies past each other? enjoy the larger figures? enjoy the more dramatic dance permited by a more open embrace? enjoy the athletiscm that a more open embrace permits, even encourages? have you ever considered that starting slowly and allowing a more open embrace, larger figures and a more dramatic dance might improve your recruitment and retention? especially among younger dancers? have you ever considered that some people feel mauled and threatened (especially good looking females) by the pack of wolves that descend on them DEMANDING close embrace dances and belittling their hesitation to have their "personal boundries" invaided by "stinky old men"? and this destroys your retention, especially among younger females? i'm just asking. who is it that has the issues? The Tangonista Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude) NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Coincedently, this morning I came to the conclusion that it was the fear of the close embrace that was keeping the women in my town gaah gaah over fancy stage steps and avoiding the close embrace dancethis is after some months of observing classes and social dances...at first, I couldnt understand the almost universal preference for dancing apart with wide, ostentaciously swinging movements and the absence of the subtle and close dancingafter listening to their reactions to certain dancing and their absence of same for the close embrace dance, seeing that they comprised young and not so young women and from different cultures some of them.is it just a matter of taste and my own lack of it? I have considered that and I give the edge to this strange reticence and fear of the close embrace...I remember one woman expressing the idea that she didnt want to be 'glued to someone'...this was some time ago but it expresses the same distaste for the intimate embrace. ... www.theopendoorway.org/audiovisual.html www.mario7.deviantart.com/ www.youtube.com/user/nacotete www.tangoandchaos.org THE WAR IS MAKING YOU POOR! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The fear of close embrace
Two years ago, I met a woman at a ballroom and Latin dance weekend. She danced very well but not Argentine Tango. We fell out of contact but recently reunited by a mutual friend. She started tango lessons and had reservations about dancing close embrace. That's when it dawned on me that there aren't classes nor workshops on what it means to dance close embrace. This is a class about feelings, not technique. For example, I've heard women say "I'm not going to dance close embrace until I know the man better." (Is she expecting to date him first or send his fingerprints to the FBI for a background check?) Tango is a flirtatious dance. Some women think they send a sexual message, almost inviting a man to an encounter after the milonga if they dance close embrace. Men have their own reasons for not dancing close embrace. When I went to BA in April 2009, everybody danced close embrace at the milongas I attended. (Of course, I couldn't attend all 1600 milongas in two weeks.) Argentine women didn't have any problem dancing close embrace with me, sometimes feeling like I was in a straightjacket. Clearly, the Argentines aren't protective of their "personal space" whereas North Americans are very possessive of their "space." My teacher said "Before we can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves." It took a while to understand and feel the importance of the statement before I became comfortable dancing close embrace. I feel a lot of people have fears about dancing close embrace. Unless they have a great teacher or tango support group to discuss these feelings, dancers carry these fears to the milongas. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Washington, DC ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
