Re[9]: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread TNT

ST You should reset mask - there is such a command in the menu when you
ST click the Action button. By default, only the folders you are
ST subscribed to are shown.

I've  done  that and the only thing that happened was that the 'Total'
changed from 10 to 0. Refreshing changes that back to 10.

ST What do you mean by all OK?  This part has not been changed for years,
ST so I do not understand how it comes that the previous release shows
ST something different. All in all, everything works as expected here and
ST I see no difference from the 1.53 version.

When I say 'ok' I mean that my folders show up when I run 1.53d. Maybe
I should re-install?


-- 
TNT


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Re: Unfixed major bug with slow loading folders via network

2002-03-22 Thread Marek Mikus

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Alexis Haeringer wrote:

 MM  This is very bad for some companies and schools, which use TB and
 MM  Novell :-(

 It's seems confiemed :
 https://bt.ritlabs.com/view_bug_advanced_page.php?f_id=310
 Test with new beta, perhaps it's good
 ,-= [  ] =-
 |
 | stef
 | 01 Feb 09:57
 |  It seems network drives have very weak caching... Fixed
 |
 '-=

he tested with 1.54 RC/1, same problems :-(

-- 

Marek Mikus
Czech Support of The Bat!
http://www.thebat.ipex.cz


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Re[10]: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Stefan Tanurkov

Hi TNT,

T I've  done  that and the only thing that happened was that the 'Total'
T changed from 10 to 0. Refreshing changes that back to 10.

Did you cleared out the Mailbox field when you reset the mask?

Here everything shows up fine...


-- 
Best regards,
 Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

...The attention span of a computer is as long as its electrical cord. 



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Re: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Graham Foster

Hello Stefan

 You should reset mask - there is such a command in the menu when you
 click the Action button. By default, only the folders you are
 subscribed to are shown.
Nice try Stefan.. I ventured into the IMAP folders again yesterday
after prompting on this thread. Something is broken. I tried reset
mask on multiple occasions, followed by refresh.. and I only got a
full folder listing *once*. When I tried to reproduce it again.. I
even lost the inbox. When I closed the form however TB! quietly forgot
all my changes are restored the 2 IMAP folders I've had in place since
1.54 (early beta).. Inbox  Sent Folders. It completely forgot my
changes.

 What do you mean by all OK?  This part has not been changed for years,
 so I do not understand how it comes that the previous release shows
 something different. All in all, everything works as expected here and
 I see no difference from the 1.53 version.
Perhaps this is true. However something isn't right. I'll sent you a
load of image offline to show the point.
To fix the problem, you have to reset the mask, close the entire
view messages on server interaction, go BACK into this interaction,
toggle subscribed only - THEN the other folders re-appeared.

However if you close the interaction and go back in again - they have
gone ;-)

Basically - there is a problem. The GUI never was that intuitive.. it
plain doesn't work now.

  
regards,
 Graham  
Using The Bat! 1.60 RC/2
under Windows NT 4.0 
(Build 1381, Service Pack 6)



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Re: Version 2 (was: Roadmap (was: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?))

2002-03-22 Thread Ottar Grimstad

Hello Graham,

Thursday, March 21, 2002, 1:26:16 PM, you wrote to TBBETA:

GF Lets release this and move on.

Agreed. Let the ordinary users get the benefits of the
enhancements now ASAP

-- 
Best regards,
  Ottar Grimstad, Norway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
Using The Bat! 1.60 RC/2 on Windows 98 version 4,10


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Re: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Markus Gloede

Hi,

Stefan Tanurkov wrote in msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :

 Did you cleared out the Mailbox field when you reset the mask?

 Here everything shows up fine...

I know this might be heresy, but did you try it with a freshly installed
beta or RC? OTOH could it be that somewhere during the beta cycle some
settings were messed up and now they won't work even if the 'engine' would
allow it?

Create an account on fastmail.fm and see if you get to see any other
folder than INBOX.

I really tried everything I could think of mask-wise. I was even able to
create new folders through the dispatcher, still the Bat won't see them.

Regards,

Markus
-- 
Don't anthropomorphize computers.  They hate that.
Using The Bat! 1.54 RC/1 under Windows NT 4.0
Build 1381 Service Pack 6 


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Re: Unfixed major bug with slow loading folders via network

2002-03-22 Thread Marek Mikus

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Stefan Tanurkov wrote:

 MM  This problem was introduced with 1.53 version, when was new
 MM  improved Networking Engine and it is related to it, I think.

 The problem is that we do not have access to any Novell-based network
 where we can see what is happening. Novell has been a source of
 problems since I knew it exists because its file system behaves too
 differently to the FS we get used to in the standard DOS and Windows.
 So, I do not know what to say here :-((

can I somehow help You? I have many schools and hospitals, which use
Pegasus actually and they want to use TB. Is not possible to create debug
version for these users to test it and send to You their results? maybe I
am wrong, but this is big problem.

-- 

Marek Mikus
Czech Support of The Bat!
http://www.thebat.ipex.cz


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Re[2]: Unfixed major bug with slow loading folders via network

2002-03-22 Thread Stefan Tanurkov

Hello Marek,


MM can I somehow help You? I have many schools and hospitals, which use
MM Pegasus actually and they want to use TB. Is not possible to create debug
MM version for these users to test it and send to You their results? maybe I
MM am wrong, but this is big problem.

No. My experience with Novell shows that a developer must be there
because the system is too quirky to debug anything remotely. Do you
offer teleportation services? ;-)  Seriously, I would like to visit
Czech Republic to drink a lot of Czech beer and to rest a bit, but it
is almost impossible now :-(

Anyway, I wish to make the release now and then try to fix the problem
in a bis version because it should not be rush when solving it. This
problem really needs to be fixed - this part is going to migrate into
v2 almost unchanged.


-- 
Sincerely,
 Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

...GIVE: Support the helpless victims of computer error.


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BUG: Still problems with shutdown

2002-03-22 Thread Patrick Cornelißen

Hello TBBETA,

  TB! 1.54RC1 has still problems with W2k. When I try to shutdown
  Windows and TB is started, TB disappears in the traybar but is not
  closed. W2k stopps the Shutdown process and I can work as usual. To
  shutdown I've to kill TB with the Taskmanager.

  Maybe this should be fixed before the final release ;-)

-- 
Bye,
 Patrick Cornelissen
 http://www.P-C-Software.de 
 ICQ:15885533



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature


Re[2]: Unfixed major bug with slow loading folders via network

2002-03-22 Thread Marek Mikus

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Stefan Tanurkov wrote:

 MM can I somehow help You? I have many schools and hospitals, which use
 MM Pegasus actually and they want to use TB. Is not possible to create debug
 MM version for these users to test it and send to You their results? maybe I
 MM am wrong, but this is big problem.

 No. My experience with Novell shows that a developer must be there
 because the system is too quirky to debug anything remotely. Do you
 offer teleportation services? ;-)  Seriously, I would like to visit
 Czech Republic to drink a lot of Czech beer and to rest a bit, but it
 is almost impossible now :-(

 Anyway, I wish to make the release now and then try to fix the problem
 in a bis version because it should not be rush when solving it. This
 problem really needs to be fixed - this part is going to migrate into
 v2 almost unchanged.

OK, thanks. One other question. Will You fix any bugs from BT until final
version 1.60 be relased or not? There are some cosmetic bugs and some
problems with Virus protection, like bad strings and problem in
cooperation with Kaspersky Antivirus - as I know, You are alone, who has
working The Bat! and Kaspersky plugin :-(

-- 

Marek Mikus
Czech Support of The Bat!
http://www.thebat.ipex.cz


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Re: BUG: Still problems with shutdown

2002-03-22 Thread Martin Schoch


Hi Patrick

On Friday, March 22, 2002 11:47:43 AM you wrote:

PC   Maybe this should be fixed before the final release ;-)

Can't confirm this problem.

-- 
Best regards,
  Martin
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ICQ: 143073855

TheBat! 1.60 RC/2 on Windows 2000 5 2195 Service Pack 2


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Re: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Graham Foster

Hello Markus / Stefan


 Here everything shows up fine...

 I know this might be heresy, but did you try it with a freshly installed
 beta or RC?
OK - I've just installed everything from scratch on a new PC, starting
at 1.53d release version, and adding every RAR over the top.. and
testing. Here are my comments

a) The GUI is confusing in that Subscribed only checkbox defaults to
OFF, when it should default to ON - as that is what is displayed then
going into the folder view initially

b) When pressing Reset Mask (Cntrl M), it **takes some time** to
actually do a retrieve the folder list. (We have a couple of thousand
IMAP folders on Exchange, and even on a 100Mb LAN it takes a few
seconds to refresh). During this time, the GUI is live - but there is
no BUSY indicator, therefore buttons (like Subscribed only) continue
to work and appear to give odd results. If you wait.. (without
clicking madly) the folder list will be retrieved. It would be good if
the GUI set the busy status whilst doing this folder query.

c) When selecting Reset Mask, you get a Mailbox dropdown which
   1) Doesn't reflect the currently highlighted mailbox, and is
   therefore counter intuitive (it is a list of all folders)
   2) Although you CAN clear the mailbox mask by over-typing, there is
   no indication that you need to. Better would be to add a button to
   clear this field, and convert the dropdown into an uneditable
   picklist. It would make more sense this way.
   3) Re-naming the mask to be Subfolder mask would be clearer too.
   

In conclusion.. Stefan is right. Functionally there is no difference
between ANY of the versions, although I was confused by the problems
with the slow rate of screen refresh on the IMAP folder view. If you
give the UI time, it does work correctly, and the currently release
candidate does behave identically to 1.53d


regards,
 Graham  
Using The Bat! 1.60 RC/2
under Windows NT 4.0 
(Build 1381, Service Pack 6)



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Re: BUG: Still problems with shutdown

2002-03-22 Thread Patrick Cornelißen

Hello Martin Schoch,

On Freitag, 22. März 2002 at 11:56, you wrote:

PC   Maybe this should be fixed before the final release ;-)
 Can't confirm this problem.
This happens not every time.

Is nobody here, who can confirm this? I can't imagine that I'm the
only one with this problem.

-- 
Bye,
 Patrick Cornelissen
 http://www.P-C-Software.de 
 ICQ:15885533



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature


Re[2]: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Stefan Tanurkov

Dear Markus,


MG Create an account on fastmail.fm and see if you get to see any other
MG folder than INBOX.

Thank you for pointing to there. It helped me to figure out what is
wrong sub-folders of the INBOX folder were not listed at all. It was a
very old bug in the IMAP engine and it has been fixed now.

-- 
Best regards,
 Stefanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

...Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life.
   - Joseph Conrad, Polish-born author (1857-1924) 


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Re: RC with degraded IMAP capabilities?

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Palmreuther

Hello Stefan,

On Friday, March 22, 2002 at 12:16:14 PM you wrote in
msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (at least in part):

MG Create an account on fastmail.fm and see if you get to see any other
MG folder than INBOX.

ST Thank you for pointing to there. It helped me to figure out what is
ST wrong sub-folders of the INBOX folder were not listed at all. It was a
ST very old bug in the IMAP engine and it has been fixed now.

Good to read :-)
So I don't need to set up an IMAPD at home and send you network captures to
prove the 'INBOX\Trash' folder was sent by IMAPD but wasn't recognized by
The Bat! :-)
-- 
Regards
Peter Palmreuthermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(The Bat! v1.60 RC/2 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2)

He who lives without folly is less wise than he believes.


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New (or old?) bug (was: Unfixed major bug with slow loading folders via network)

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Gannushkin

Hello Stefan,

Friday, March 22, 2002, you wrote to me:

MM can I somehow help You? I have many schools and hospitals, which use
MM Pegasus actually and they want to use TB. Is not possible to create debug
MM version for these users to test it and send to You their results? maybe I
MM am wrong, but this is big problem.

ST No. My experience with Novell shows that a developer must be there
ST because the system is too quirky to debug anything remotely. Do you
ST offer teleportation services? ;-)  Seriously, I would like to visit
ST Czech Republic to drink a lot of Czech beer and to rest a bit, but it
ST is almost impossible now :-(

You'll be very welcomed here in Prague if you'll finally make it.

BTW, I just reported new (or maybe not so new) bug to bt. It seems
that TB! doesn't restore the current message position if it was
restarted by Windows itself. Please, look at it:
https://bt.ritlabs.com/view_bug_advanced_page.php?f_id=717.

-- 
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/


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Re: Slow loading of mailto:

2002-03-22 Thread Martin Schoch

Hi Dave

On Friday, March 22, 2002 12:17:20 PM you wrote:

DC Doesn't happen with other e-mail programs I have
DC tried this with.
 
The long delay I can't confirm - but an other...

I have no account set as the default mailto: account. With other betas
I got a window where I could choose the account on which this mail
should be sent. But with 1.60 this window is gone...

And the new edit mail windows is not in focus - it's stays behind... I
have to click on the icon in the status bar.

-- 
Best regards,
  Martin
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ICQ: 143073855

TheBat! 1.60 RC/2 on Windows 2000 5 2195 Service Pack 2


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Re: Any news about 1.60 RC/2

2002-03-22 Thread Gareth Campling

Hi Martin,

Well its on the ritlabs ftp download page, so i'd presume yeah

-- 
Best regards,
 Gareth, MCP   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[ All Outgoing Email Verified Virus Free by Norton AntiVirus 2002 ]

Friday, March 22, 2002, 4:48:04 PM, you wrote:

MS Hello

MS  My simple question: Any news about the version 1.60 RC/2...? Is it
MS  official or not?



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Re: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Alexis Haeringer

Bonjour Carsten,

Vendredi, le 22 mars 2002 à 12h31 [GMT -0500] (ce qui correspond à
18h31 ici où j'habite), Carsten Guthardt-Schulz =[CGS] a écrit à 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] :

CGS double-click very hard on this ticker to open the message. hard means I
CGS have to doubleclick several times and it takes long until the message

Confirmed but it's a fickle/rare bug. But when it arrive it's very
annoying

-- 
Bien à vous,
 Alexis Haeringer  mailto:ginkyo[arobase]gmx.fr
 (alias ginkyo)

Ma clef PGP : mailto:pgp1[arobase]ginkyo.org

Using The Bat! v1.54 RC/1 (S/N EEB8DE89) on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2


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Re[4]: [Windows-key]-m doesn't minimize

2002-03-22 Thread Alexis Haeringer

Bonjour Carsten,

Vendredi, le 22 mars 2002 à 12h22 [GMT -0500] (ce qui correspond à
18h22 ici où j'habite), Carsten Guthardt-Schulz =[CGS] a écrit à Alexis Haeringer :

CGS Comment est-ce que tu as optenu une adresse gmx.fr? Je ne peux pas choisir
CGS le .fr pour mon adresse et le service n'est plus disponible on français

reply in private

-- 
Bien à vous,
 Alexis Haeringer  mailto:ginkyo[arobase]gmx.fr
 (alias ginkyo)

Ma clef PGP : mailto:pgp1[arobase]ginkyo.org

Using The Bat! v1.54 RC/1 (S/N EEB8DE89) on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2


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1.60 has been silently released

2002-03-22 Thread Stefan Tanurkov

Dear All,

  Just wanted to say that the release installation is now available at
  the official place and the executable is available at
  http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/beta.html

  It includes some cosmetic changes :-) and the IMAP fix made today.

  The official announce will be out in a few days - we should be sure
  that everything is OK with the current installation to minimise the
  bis versions production.

  Thank you all for testing and support! More words will follow soon -
  we must relax now, it's been a long hard day today :-)

-- 
Best regards,
 Stefan  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

... If poetry comes not as naturally as the leaves to a tree,
   it better not come at all. - John Keats 


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Re: Right time for a statement?

2002-03-22 Thread Carsten Guthardt-Schulz

DD Maybe this is the right time for Ritlabs (or to
DD name it: Maxim and Stefan) do make clear statements about their plans
DD for the future.

I absolutely agree. What is the sense of all this mystery stuff? Time for
another interview, or just answer the same questions again ;-)

Guti


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Re: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Dwight A Corrin

On Friday, March 22, 2002, 11:31:43 AM, Carsten Guthardt-Schulz wrote:

 Whenever a new message arrives and the mailticker is displayed, I
 have to double-click very hard on this ticker to open the message.
 hard means I have to doubleclick several times and it takes long
 until the message opens.

confirmed

-- 
Dwight A. Corrin
P O Box 47828
Wichita KS 67201-7828
316.263.9706  fax 316.263.6385
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Using The Bat! 1.60 RC/2 on Windows XP version 5,1



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Re: 1.60 has been silently released

2002-03-22 Thread Martin Schoch


Hi Stefan

On Friday, March 22, 2002 6:38:44 PM you wrote:

ST It includes some cosmetic changes :-) and the IMAP fix made today.

But the mailto: bug is not fixed - that's really a pity...

-- 
Best regards,
  Martin
   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   ICQ: 143073855

TheBat! 1.60 on Windows 2000 5 2195 Service Pack 2


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Re: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Meyns


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:31:43 -0500GMT (which was 22.03.02, 18:31 +0100GMT
where I live), Carsten Guthardt-Schulz wrote this about Bug with Mailticker?:

CGS Does anyone else have this:

CGS Whenever a new message arrives and the mailticker is displayed, I have to
CGS double-click very hard on this ticker to open the message. hard means I
CGS have to doubleclick several times and it takes long until the message
CGS opens.

Hi Carsten,

not confirmed here. Mailticker opens on double-click.
-- 
Cheers
Peter

*
This message was created using The Bat!, version 1.54 RC/1,
under Windows 98, 4, 10, build ,
on a Pentium II machine at 200MHz, 64 MB RAM :-)

Winamp currently playing: Pretty Things - S.F. Sorrow Is Born


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Re: Start up and periodic checking bug?

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Meyns


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:36:52 +0900GMT (which was 22.03.02, 13:36 +0100GMT
where I live), Yuki Taga wrote this about Start up and periodic checking bug?:

YT Seems if I have check on startup selected, and a periodic setting,
YT there is no check on startup.  Instead checking begins 1 period after
YT startup.

Hi Yuki,

my settings are the same as yours.

If my online connection already exists when I start TB!, it checks on
startup. If there is no connection, it doesn't even try. When I connect
later, TB! doesn't start checking mail immediately, but eventually will
start its periodical checking. Of course, alt+F2 will always make TB!
connect and check. I don't see a bug here.
-- 
Cheers
Peter

Winamp currently playing: Randy Newman and Lyle Lovett - You've Got a Friend in Me


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Re: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Gene Gough



NOT confirmed.  I have no problems with this at all.




Friday, March 22, 2002, 12:31:43 PM, you wrote:

CGS Whenever a new message arrives and the mailticker is displayed, I have to
CGS double-click very hard on this ticker to open the message. hard means I  
CGS have to doubleclick several times and it takes long until the message
CGS opens.   



-- 


Genemailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Windows 2000 [version 5.0.2195]
Mail Client: THE BAT 1.60 RC/2


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Re: 1.60 has been silently released

2002-03-22 Thread L Carlson

Hello Stefan,

den 22 mars 2002, 18:38, you wrote:

ST Dear All,

ST   Just wanted to say that the release installation is now available at
ST   the official place and the executable is available at
ST   http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/beta.html

ST   It includes some cosmetic changes :-) and the IMAP fix made today.

ST   The official announce will be out in a few days - we should be sure
ST   that everything is OK with the current installation to minimise the
ST   bis versions production.

What is the the difference between the executable at the beta page and
the executable in the install package? They are different in size...

-- 
Lennart


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Re: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Allie C Martin

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

@ 12:31:43 -0500 [ Fri, 22 Mar 2002], Carsten Guthardt-Schulz [CGS]
thoughtfully wrote the following:
...
CGS Whenever a new message arrives and the mailticker is displayed, I
CGS have to double-click very hard on this ticker to open the
CGS message. hard means I have to doubleclick several times and it
CGS takes long until the message opens.

When the ticker appears, it will first scroll through the part that
tells you how many new messages there are. When this is being shown, the
ticker will not open and I guess this is when you're clicking away and
wondering what is happening.

As the ticker scrolls to the left, the left boundary for the first
message header summary will go off the screen. It's from then that the
ticker messages can be opened from the ticker. The ticker again becomes
unresponsive when the left boundary of the message tally reaches the
left edge of the ticker and it remains unresponsive until the right
boundary of the message tally reaches the left boundary of the ticker.

- --
 
 Allie C Martin (_ List Moderator and fellow end user
__) PGPKey - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
TB! v1.60 RC/2  Windows XP 5.1.2600
¯¯
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Re[2]: Bug with Mailticker?

2002-03-22 Thread Carsten Guthardt-Schulz

AH Confirmed but it's a fickle/rare bug.

It's really weird, it doesn't happen all the time, but very often recently.
Unfortunately I can't compare it to older versions, because I haven't used
the mailticker before Beta46.

Guti


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Re: AV error after Ctrl+Backspace with 1.60 RC/2

2002-03-22 Thread Jernej Simoni

Hello Jernej,

22. marec 2002, 15:05:37, you wrote:

JS Confirmed. First I get asked Do you believe that the reply wass
JS written?, and after clicking Yes, I get AV. Doesn't happen with
JS messages I really replied.

Confirmed even more - if I press Ctrl+Backspace on Marek's message
(which I replied), I get the AV immediately...

-- 
Jernej Simoncic, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/
ICQ: 26266467

[The Bat! v1.60 RC/2 on Windows 98 4.10.. A ]

The integral of the gravitational potential taken around any loop
trail you choose to hike always comes out positive.
   -- Barber's First Law of Backpacking


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Re: 1.60 has been silently released

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Meyns

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:38:44 +0200GMT (which was 22.03.02, 18:38 +0100GMT
where I live), Stefan Tanurkov wrote this about 1.60 has been silently released:

ST   Just wanted to say that the release installation is now available at
ST   the official place and the executable is available at
ST   http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/beta.html

Hi Stefan,

you should update your What's new link on your downloadpage. *s* It
still gives What's new in 1.53d...
-- 
Cheers
Peter

Winamp currently playing: Miles Davis - Time After Time
   
  


tbwhatsnew.PNG
Description: PNG image


Re: [Windows-key]-m doesn't minimize

2002-03-22 Thread Jernej Simoni

Hello Dwight,

22. marec 2002, 17:00:39, you wrote:

DAC here it minimizes, but only to the tool bar, not to the system tray

Same here.

-- 
Jernej Simoncic, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/
ICQ: 26266467

[The Bat! v1.60 RC/2 on Windows 98 4.10.. A ]

Whenever a system becomes completely defined, some damn fool
discovers something which either abolishes the system or expands it
beyond recognition.
   -- Fourth Rule on Fools


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