Re: DomainKeys

[Dave Crocker]

Rich,

rg> I wonder how Yahoo!'s new policy (is it even in place or just an
rg> idea?) will affect me.

DomainKeys is a proposed Internet standard, rather than a Yahoo
"policy". They have been working with others in industry to develop the
specification and will be pursuing it in the IETF to make it a
standardize it.  (If this paragraph sounds like marketing, it's because
I've been one of the ones participating in their effort, but I have no
business relationship with them.)


rg> Part of what this says is that there will be header checking that will
rg> refuse emails with headers the system doesn't like.

rg> I send with a "From" line that may be any one of a number of domains
rg> BUT in reality all my mail is SMTP served by earthlink.

The SPF and Sender-ID mechanisms are likely to cause you far more
problems than DomainKeys will.  The first two require registering your
transit MTAs with your domain.

DomainKeys is in the spirit of PGP and S/Mime, but tuned for the problem
of transit authentication, rather than long-term storage and privacy.
All of them have ways to digitally sign the message.

Given that nothing has yet reduced the amount of global spam, and given
that so much spam is spoofed and/or comes through compromised systems,
it's good that there are multiple efforts.

One of them might work.

d/

ps.  Full Disclosure:

 I have a proposal, too.  See <http://brandenburg.com/CSV>
--
 Dave Crocker <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com>
 Sunnyvale, CA  USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>, <fax:+1.866.358.5301>



Current version is 2.12.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re[7]: Setting Global Account Settings & sharing filters acrosscomputers

[Dave Crocker]

Scott,

Sunday, October 13, 2002, 12:27:40 PM, you wrote:
SM> You  should  have a $KNOWN$ filter in your list of filters; it catches
SM> emails  that  are  from email addresses that are in your address book.
SM> That's  an example of a whitelist; it identifies emails that you want,
SM> not emails that you don't want.


You can use the same idea for creating a blacklist.

I created a separate address book, called killfile, and discard all mail
from anyone that is KNOWN in that address book.

d/

-
Dave Crocker <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Current version is 1.61 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re[9]: Setting Global Account Settings & sharing filters acrosscomputers

[Dave Crocker]

Sunday, October 13, 2002, 1:09:28 PM, you wrote:

DC>> I created a separate address book, called killfile, and discard all
DC>> mail from anyone that is KNOWN in that address book.

awc> what i've found is that the messages are from tons of different
awc> sources.. often the same message.. so for people i dont want to
awc> hear from it's easy to do this. but..for the spam, it's really

right.  the killsfile filter is not for spam.  however some of the mailing
lists I track have "contributors" who add noise, rather than useful content.
It is better not to see their notes, so I am not tempted to respond.  It
also makes it easier to find and read through constructive threads.

d/

-- 
Best regards,
 Davemailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: (no subject)

[Dave Crocker]

Gary,

Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 10:55:48 PM, you wrote:
Gary> which implies that the new mail is scattered throughout the message
Gary> folder, perhaps to a point where one cannot even see the new mail that has
Gary> arrived.  This feature would be a key that takes you automatically to the
Gary> next unread message.

 control right-arrow.
 
d/
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 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: New Messages (was: no subject)

[Dave Crocker]

Thomas,

Wednesday, October 23, 2002, 2:34:23 AM, you wrote:
Thomas> You apparently send the incoming messages to the folder with a filter.
Thomas> In that filter, set "Ply Sound" under the Action tab.

Thanks to the folks who suggested this approach.  Unfortunately it has some
difficulties, for the situation I am describing.

One is that I receive many messages at once. If I have not picked up mail
for awhile -- part of a day -- it could be several hundred messages. Imagine
having lots of different sounds going off and then trying to figure out
which folder to go to.

The second is that the use I described is that I have, perhaps, 100-200
folders.  Imagine trying to distinguish all those sounds.  Although some
folders are always important, others vary.  They are important one day and
not important the next.  Hence I cannot simply have sounds for the
'important' folders, but no sounds for the rest.

The third is that the style of use I described has me bouncing from one
folder to another, with no consistent pattern. Hence, I need to be able to
sit back and look at the full range of folders (in the Accounts Pane) and
see which ones have New messages. Playing sounds does not permit this kind
of repeated review.

d/
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 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: New Messages (was: no subject)

[Dave Crocker]

Barry,


Wednesday, October 23, 2002, 1:38:25 PM, you wrote:
Barry2> I too have a number of folders ( though not as many as you have ) and
Barry2> the Blue Folder icon for un-read messages is about as clear as you can
Barry2> make it in the accounts pane !

If you have an online session that is essentially all day, then you cannot
tell what email is new, for each pickup that TB performs.

Frequently it is worth glancing at a folder, to see what messages remain
unread, but then you decide not to read them now.  Later, you cannot tell
which messages have just arrived.


Barry2> If you go to [ View / Split Mode ] and select [ Full height account

indeed, the full-length accounts pane format is quite nice. i switched to it
the second day of converting to TB.

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



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Re[2]: Difference between 'common folders' and normal ones

[Dave Crocker]

Friday, October 18, 2002, 1:54:06 AM, you wrote:
>> what is the difference between 'common folders' and normal folders?

DH> Common Folders reside outside of accounts.

In many places, the documentation says that a function takes its
defaults from "the account".  An example is the set of templates used
for Reply and Forward.

Common folders do, in fact, take their default templates from
somewhere.  They do not require that each common folder specify the
details of their templates.

So, the question is where these come from?  What does serve the role
of the account, for common folders, for such things as template
defaults?

d/




d/
- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: Relaying denied?

[Dave Crocker]

Howdy.

VN> When I try to send emails, I sometimes get an error message saying -
VN> Server reply: relaying denied? This seems to be happening only
VN> recently since I got my broadband connection (Ethernet connection via
VN> T1/ATM to campus network).

This is the result of an anti-spam mechanism, to stop what is called "open
relaying".  Open relaying is when anyone can post email through the server,
to any other destination.  Spammers use this to get a multipying effect, so
they can send to more people, quicker.  They also use it to try to hide
their original location.

The solution is to limit email posting to a server for only those who are
"authorized".  Authorization can come from different mechanisms.  Three
mechanisms are quite common:

   One is the"pop before smtp" hack.

   Another is SMTP Auth.

   Another is coming in over an authenticated SSL connection.

TB! appears to support all of these, so the question is what your server
wants.

The "From" and "Sender" fields are not important.  Servers do not use them
for authentication.  They are too easy to forge.

In some systems, only users who are "local" to the server may post.  This
requires that their IP address be on the same network as the server.  Such
servers will not permit posting by anyone who is traveling or is otherwise
outside the home network.  Any server run in this sort of simplistic way is
utterly useless for anyone who works in multiple locations and/or who
travels.

The problem with running an SMTP server on your own machine is that you have
then made yourself into an ISP.  That is, you must have very good, full-time
access.  SMTP is a utility service and needs to be run accordingly.  It is
not reasonable to expect individual users to have the connectivity or the
operational environment that keeps email transport reliable and efficient.

/d
-
  Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com>



Current version is 1.61 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re[2]: Relaying denied?

[Dave Crocker]

Thomas,

Saturday, October 19, 2002, 10:29:36 AM, you wrote:

DC>>> Sometimes the destination is not available.
>> This not as common as one would think.
TF> This was a problem when I tried my own SMTP server a couple of years
TF> ago. "The 'net" might have improved in the meantime, tough.

The net's performance has varied quite a bit over the years.  Of
course, it also depends on your own connectivity and the connectivity
of your recipients.

DC>>> Hence, an SMTP sending engine needs persistence full-time access
DC>>> to all of the rest of the net.
TF> I agree with Dave here. Well, OK, you do not need to be online
TF> full-time, but a lot more than you would want if you have a
TF> pay-per-minute dial-up connection.

It all depends on net performance, availability of the different
destination SMTP servers, and the number/range of places you send to.

Oh.  And it depends on how much you demand fast, reliable service all
time.


>> For many it may not be like this so the comment that you'd be making
>> yourself into an ISP is not a reasonable one.

TF> I was wondering about the terminology. Are you an ISP just because you
TF> run an SMTP-server for your own use,

Sorry for creating confusion.  I merely meant the term to describe a
class of service, namely professional-level reliability and
performance.

d/
- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



Current version is 1.61 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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(no subject)

[Dave Crocker]

Folks,

TB currently does some distinctive things, to note "unread" messages in a
folder and to note "new" messages.

A folder with unread messages is highlighted in the "account tree" pane, in
bold, and the folder icon is blue, rather than gold.  In the pane that lists
messages in a folder, unread messages are highlighted in bold, with a gold
icon, rather than the open-envelope icon.

New messages are announced in the innovative message banner.

The banner is great if you do not get much mail.  As a slow, serial display
mechanism, it does not work well if it needs to show very much or show it
quickly.  When there are lots of new messages, the banner mechanism bogs
down.

I wonder whether anyone besides me would find it useful to have new messages
indicated in more than the banner.  For example, what if there were a third
choice for the icons in the account tree pane and in the folder summary
pane?  So, the icon would show basic, unread, or new.  (new implies unread,
of course.)

This would allow a user to very quickly scan and see where new messages have
just come in.  (And, yes, this becomes a real issue if you have lots of
folders, as well as lots of message activity.)

Thoughts?

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: Proposal: The Bat! Message Board

[Dave Crocker]

Folks,

Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 8:08:37 AM, you wrote:
j>> I'd much rather use a message board than a mailing list. Lots of my
Barry2> The important thing is for there actually to *be* a choice ??

Often, a discussion forum is sent as both a mailing list and a newsgroup,
with a gateway doing the cross-posting.  This lets people access the
discussions in whatever manner they prefer.

A question that might be worth focusing on is what discussion groups are
needed.  tbudl is a very general discussion.  As has been raised elsewhere,
perhaps there should be a distinction between new-users and advanced-users?
Perhaps there should be a separate list for people who offer TB support?
 
d/
- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Displaying "new" status in account tree pane and folder summary pane

[Dave Crocker]

Allie,

Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 6:07:46 PM, you wrote:
Allie> Firstly, you can configure which folders new messages are displayed
Allie> by the ticker,

Yes. I think the ticker is quite a clever idea and very useful in some
situations. Like any tool, it is good for some things and not so good for
others. My note was not at all a complaint about the tool. However it is the
only place that 'new' messages are noted and there is a very different way
of showing that information which suits other usage scenarios.

In particular, I've noted that some users (like me) have:

- lots of folders that new messages are put into,

- lots of message traffic for many of the folders, and

- a need to move around those folders in an almost-random pattern

That is, a user wanting to scan and re-scan the set of active folders and
dive into one or another according to whims of the moment. And then jump
back out and look for the next one to dive into. It would be enormously
helpful to know which folders have "new" messages and which do not.


d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: (no subject)

[Dave Crocker]

Thomas,

Tuesday, October 22, 2002, 8:08:32 PM, you wrote:
Thomas> This is a long-standing wish. It resulted in Ritlabs giving us the the
Thomas> possibility of "flagging" messages (ctrl-G).

Flagging solves a problem with other systems, where I've wanted to mark a
message for further attention.  The only way to do this on other systems has
been to leave its status as "unread" but this has never been satisfactory.

So, Flagging is for a different purpose from indicating newness. The Ticker
already implements the construct of New. I am merely suggesting some
additional ways to display it.


Thomas> With the basic/unread/new philosophy, we have not arrived at a
Thomas> definition of "unread" versus "new".

Read/Unread is already well-defined in TB. The open/closed envelope
indicates the difference. I'm not suggesting any change.

H... On the other hand, maybe I AM suggesting a change: Once a message
has been Read, it is no longer New, even if the Age Limits algorithm says
otherwise.)

The Ticker already implements the New construct, with controls over how long
the condition exists.  Again, I'm not suggesting any change to this.  The
only change would be adding display of this status in other places.

(If I understand the TB algorithm, a message is a candidate for being New
when it first arrives into TB.  The "Age Limits" options then apply to
determine how old it has to be before it is shown and how much older it has
to be before it is not longer shown.)

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>



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Re: Displaying "new" status in account tree pane and folder summarypane

[Dave Crocker]

Miguel,

Thursday, October 24, 2002, 4:17:41 PM, you wrote:
Miguel> I think I understand what you mean and, as I had a similar feeling
Miguel> months ago, I will tell you what I have done just in case it is of any
Miguel> help.

Many, many thanks for the extensive description if your creative use
of filters.

Your scheme is extremely clever and sounds extremely useful.

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
 TribalWise <http://www.tribalwise.com>
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



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Re: Displaying "new" status in account tree pane and folder summarypane

[Dave Crocker]

Miguel,

Friday, October 25, 2002, 4:38:32 AM, you wrote:
>> Many, many thanks for the extensive description if your creative use
>> of filters.

Miguel> What do you mean many thanks! You owe me a beer! ;-)

glad to.  now all we need to do if find a venue in common.

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
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"Park" a folder

[Dave Crocker]

Howdy.

I am curious about folks' reaction to the idea of making it more difficult
to delete a folder.

I've accidentally deleted important folders a couple of times.  You might
think that the confirmation that TB requires, before deleting a folder,
would be enough.  It isn't.  In using a computer, we get so many
confirmation requests, that it we often do not read them carefully.  If we
think we already know what the query is asking, we just confirm
automatically.

For very important actions, it is often worth making an extra effort to
confirm that the action really is one that the user wants.

The TB mechanism of "parking" a message is really good for this extra
protection, for an individual message. (And, yes, a folder with a parked
message is more difficult to delete.)

So I think it would be good to be able to declare an entire folder as
parked. Then it would require extra effort to delete it, even if the folder
had no parked messages.

What do people think of this idea?

d/
-- 
 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
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common folder -- associate with an account

[Dave Crocker]

Hello again,

It is excellent to have Common Folders.  They can be arranged however the
user wants.

The problem is that a common folder usually needs to have an Account (or as
Eudora calls them, "persona") associated with it.

When replying to mail listed in the folder, or sending mail to people who
have mail in that folder, it is important to have the correct account (From
field) and message template used.

It is possible to achieve this effect by specifying the new/reply/forward
templates individually, for each common folder.  However it would be vastly
easier to be able to set a common folder to work as if it were under an
Account.  Then the common folder would inherit all of the necessary
parameters, templates, etc.

(The reason that is is not as good to have the folder physically under the
account is that the users then loses the ability to arrange folders
according to their needs.)

How do folks feel about this suggestion?

d/
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 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
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Re: common folder -- associate with an account

[Dave Crocker]

Thomas,

Thursday, October 31, 2002, 8:23:15 AM, you wrote:
Thomas> The idea of common folders in TB is they they do not have an account
Thomas> associated with it.

however it is a problem to have the account hierarchy dictate where a
folder can be placed.  The nice thing about common folders is that you
can create whatever folder hierarchy is useful.

However sender mail (new, reply, forward) needs to know what account
to work under.  FOr a common folder, it cannot know.

d/
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Re: common folder -- associate with an account

[Dave Crocker]

Thomas,

Thursday, October 31, 2002, 5:30:57 PM, you wrote:
>> However sender mail (new, reply, forward) needs to know what account
>> to work under. FOr a common folder, it cannot know.

Thomas> Of course not. Hence the name "common" folder. But maybe it would make
Thomas> sense for you to add the %Account macro to your templates - maybe on
Thomas> AB level, if you communicate with any given addressee only from one
Thomas> account.

As I said in my original posting, the idea was to avoid having to make
a special template (or, rather, several new templates) for each common
folder.

d/
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Re: Focus change from mail box to mail folder

[Dave Crocker]

Richard,


Wednesday, November 6, 2002, 1:15:54 PM, you wrote:
Richard>  and I sometimes select
Richard> "delete" to get rid of the unwanted mail and I, of course, get the
Richard> dialogue box asking if I want to delete the entire folder. One of
Richard> these days I'm going to do it without thinking!

I already have.  Twice.

My own suggestion is that deleting a folder always be treated as if there is
a parked message in the folder. That is, deleting a folder should requires a
double confirmation.



d/
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Effect of changing Options>ActiveAccount

[Dave Crocker]

If you have a draft message and do an Options>ActiveAccount, changing to a
different active account, 3 things appear to happen:

1. The Outbox of the new account will be used for the sending

2. The From field is changed to the text associated with the new account

3. The Properties>Templates>NewMessage of the new account is used.

The problem that I have run into is that #3 is only performed when the new
message has not yet modified.  This is understandable, because a template
can do many complicated things.  So, what should the effect of #3 be when
the new message already has had the user type text in?  It is essentially
impossible to do a "transform" between two templates.

Still, I frequently find that I am composing a new message and then discover
it is affiliated with the wrong account.  This is important.  At the least,
I need the Signature text to be changed.  (Some accounts are associated with
different roles and jobs.)

Does anyone have any suggestions, either with the current TB or perhaps a
feature upgrade?

d/
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 Dave Crocker  <mailto:dhc2@;dcrocker.net>
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Re: Effect of changing Options>ActiveAccount

[Dave Crocker]

Allie,


Allie,

Many thanks for the quick and thorough followup.

I have one question:

It appears to me that TB will not apply a new template to a draft, if the
draft has already been modified by the user. That is, if I have already
started typing, then I believe that TB will perform any of the template
changes you suggest?

Is this correct?

d/
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Email market research

[Dave Crocker]

Folks,

This article, from the U.S. Washington Post, discusses missing email
capabilities:




d/
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NOD32 plugin usage (was: Re: OT but NOD32 2.0 Beta released)

[Dave Crocker]

So, here is something I think it ON topic:

Monday, December 23, 2002, 5:00:44 PM, you wrote:
Tom> Eset has released NOD32 2.0 Beta version. The links are here:

I tried using NOD32 plugin with TB but found that it added too much delay.
The delay seemed to be from having NOD32 constantly being started, for each
new message, rather than for the time NOD32 needed to do the evaluation of a
message.

Is this typical for TB anti-virus plugins?

And while I'm asking questions:  how does using a plug in improve security,
rather than simply relying on the same anti-virus software to protect the
file system directly?


d/
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Re: Email market research

[Dave Crocker]

Victor,

Monday, December 23, 2002, 7:45:06 PM, you wrote:
Victor> Overall it wasn't an article about how clients lack
Victor> progress but about how the author chose three products to
Victor> speak badly about. If he knew about The Bat! would he have
Victor> still spoken negatively in that article or could he have in
Victor> it's place put something positive about The Bat!?

My experience is that even careful reporters have a very, very difficult
time when reporting technical issues.  In this case, what I thought was
significant about the article was not that it was right or wrong, or even
that it listed so few clients.  Rather, my reason for forwarding it is that
I think it does correctly reflect the public perceptions about email
clients.  It lists the more popular clients and it lists some very
significant requirements that are not being met for the general public.

In effect, it suggests things that TB (and other, modern clients) can focus
on in their marketing literature, to provide clear differentiation from the
market leaders.

It also suggests what they should also focus on in their product development
(to ensure that the relevant capabilities are easy to use, powerful, etc.)

d/
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 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
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Re: NOD32 plugin usage

[Dave Crocker]

> Sorry for the bum steer.


This prompts me to ask why it is we never hear about steers that have a job?


(and a happy holidays to one and all.)

d/
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Model/view design for text editor

[Dave Crocker]

Folks,

Thursday, December 26, 2002, 11:07:29 AM, you wrote:
ME>> Many text editors have a clean "model/view" design, instead of
ME>> Bat's confused "view is the model" design.

Marck> I disagree. That's not the case. It's about the final destiny of the
Marck> output. In TB's editor's case, the intent is to send an email. Email
Marck> doesn't employ any soft wrapping format as a standard.

The model/view distinction is compatible with having WYSIWYG. Having one
does NOT mean that you must have the other and it does NOT mean that you
cannot have the other. It also is compatible with having the "put your
cursor anywhere" model used by TB.

Mark highlighted the importance of having the model/view distinction:

 It makes some kinds of editing changes vastly easier.

d/
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 Dave 
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Bug, or just odd RFC behaviour?

[Dave Crocker]

Jonathan,

Wednesday, January 1, 2003, 2:16:35 PM, you wrote:
Jonathan> Hi All,

Jonathan>   I've noticed this a lot recently, but having worked with the SMTP
Jonathan>   RFC a bit, I don't remember if it is part of required behaviour, or
Jonathan>   if it is just something that TB is doing.  If you start a new line
Jonathan>   with the word From, it'll make it appear as a reply,

The right angle-bracket is inserted at the beginning of a line that starts
with From by Sendmail.  It does this in order to ensure that email with line
starting with From are not confused with the start-of-message line that
Sendmail uses for internal storage.

The fact that this behavior is visible in mail being relayed through SMTP is
a bug in Sendmail.

d/
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 Dave 
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: XML Address Book Format

[Dave Crocker]

M.,

Xml encodings of vcard have been specified separately by the W3C and the
jabber instant messaging community:

  

and

  



  
Tuesday, December 31, 2002, 7:15:20 AM, you wrote:
M.> Neither Bat nor PhoneDeck support what I really want, which is an XML
M.> address book. I am sure such formats have already been defined.  What

d/
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: ALT-L strips spaces?

[Dave Crocker]

Markus,

Tuesday, January 7, 2003, 1:57:36 AM, you wrote:
Markus>  it is just harder
Markus> (impossible?) to come up with an algorithm that takes two spaces at
Markus> the end of sentences into account. How should this algorithm
Markus> distinguish between abbreviations and sentence ending periods (full
Markus> stops)?

The question of preserving vs. compressing spaces is a common point of
distinction between auto-formatting algorithms.  Given that the software is,
by definition, making the text look better, the real question is how much it
should try to do on behalf of the user.

My own preference is NOT to compress space.  People vary in how they do
spacing -- espcially end-of-sentence spacing.  Users do, sometimes,
accidentally add spaces they do not want, but it is a rather uncommon error.

So, the change to the algorithm would simply be to preserve all spacing.

d/
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 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: ALT-L strips spaces?

[Dave Crocker]

Lars,

Tuesday, January 7, 2003, 11:28:50 AM, you wrote:
DC>> So, the change to the algorithm would simply be to preserve all
DC>> spacing.
...
Lars> The problem is that a programme can't distinguish between the different
Lars> kinds of periods used in texts. That is why any algorithm can only
Lars> insert *one* word seperator after every period it encounters, because it
Lars> doesn't know anything about how the period is used there.

Please note that I said *preserve*.  That is quite different from *add*.
When the user typed the text in, in its original form, they added spacing,
including one or two spaces after a period, as they saw fit.  Hence the
formatting software merely needs to retain the existing spaces, whatever
they are.

Yes, there are times that the software might need to add spaces, such a when
there is no space after the last word on an original line, and that word
needs to be moved into another line.

For situations in which a space must be added, the algorithm could be simple
-- just add one space -- or it could apply a heuristic and sometimes add
two. My own experience with such heuristics is that they usually do not work
very well.  There is a huge amount of case analysis that is needed to make
the heuristic work even moderately well.

The suggestion that it is "merely" a matter of having a collection of
abbreviations is natural but misleading. First, getting a really thorough
list is difficult in just one language. What about several? Second, the list
can give the wrong answer. How do you do spacing after the period in the
following text:

An excellent performer would be Yo Yo Ma.

Note that MA. is an abbreviation for Master of Arts. And lest you note the
case difference on the A, what if there were a spelling error? Making
semantic choices based on capitalization choices is yet-another dangerous
path to travel.

Personally the simplistic algorithm I am suggesting will work just fine.

d/
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 Dave 
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Bat Running Slow

[Dave Crocker]

Daniel,

Also try de-fragmenting the disk.  TB seems to produce significantly fragmented file.

d/

Friday, January 17, 2003, 4:58:00 AM, you wrote:
>> And it's the entire program running slow as well. It took several
>> minutes to open this reply.

DR> Have you tried restarting your system?  Also, look in the WINNT\TEMP
DR> directory to make sure it doesn't have too many files.  Also, look in
DR> user's temp directory to make sure you don't have too many files as
DR> well, which would be "c:\Documents and Settings\YOUR USERNAME\Local
DR> Settings\TEMP".  "Local Settings" is a hidden directory.

DR> Hope this helps.




d/
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: FTP

[Dave Crocker]

Daniel,

Friday, January 17, 2003, 5:44:54 PM, you wrote:
DR> TCP(Transport Connection Protocol).  The initial specs of FTP dates

Just to correct an extremely minor, OT error in the OT thread:

TCP = Transmission Control Protocol

d/
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 Dave 
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: MIME Question

[Dave Crocker]

Folks,

TB handles MIME quite well.  It is compatible and compliant.

MIME is a standard for labeling aggregating data objects to email.

Does MIME recognize and process the labels?  "Process" means that it
matches the labels to local system mechanisms.  MIME does that just
fine.

Does MIME recognize and process the aggregations and separations?  Yes.

So the concerns folks are raising are not with TB's handling of MIME,
but rather with some of its user interface choices in presenting MIME
"body-parts".  As folks on this list might have noticed, user interface
choices are often subject to widely different opinions.

How should MIME body-parts be presented? The typical choice is at
attachments, because that is the construct most familiar to users.
Whether one must click on an icon, to invoke an external program to see
the attachment, or whether

My own opinion about TB's handling of the body-parts is that it does
quite well. a) I have to click on the attachment icon -- that is, invoke
an external program -- less often than with other mail user agents. b)
placing different body-parts in tabbed windows within TB, for "native"
access is quite nice. c) TB handles attachments of email far better than
other mail user agents, in my limited experience.

d/


Sunday, February 2, 2003, 4:38:05 AM, you wrote:
MD> Greetings, Batties! :)

MD> The Bat! does not seem to handle MIME messages well. Everything comes
MD> through as an attachment. Based on this, my conclusion is that The
MD> Bat! is not a MIME reader.

MD> If that is correct, does anyone know if there are plans afoot to make
MD> The Bat! MIME compatible?

-- 
 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: MIME Question

[Dave Crocker]

Michael,

Monday, February 3, 2003, 3:13:39 PM, you wrote:
MD> I'll agree with this. My problem then, isn't with The Bat!'s ability
MD> to handle MIME, but how it presents the "body parts."

DC>> How should MIME body-parts be presented? The typical choice is at

MD> Aye, that's the question. :)

Well, I would claim that TB does at least as good a job as other mail
user agents.  It does far better than Eudora.  I've only played with
Outlook and my sense is that TB is far better than it, too.

So the only way to move to significantly better handling is likely to require that
someone offer a detailed design alternative to the current system.

Producing a superior design will probably not be easy. (User interface
paradigm changes, for improved cognitive processing rarely are...)


d/
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 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: MIME Question

[Dave Crocker]

Bruno,

Tuesday, February 4, 2003, 6:06:53 AM, you wrote:
>> ... and TB handles MIME digests very well indeed. Open any one of
>> the attached messages and TB opens a virtual folder containing *all*
>> of them.

BF> How is that handling "very well?" Maybe for you.

and me. i find TB's virtual folder construct excellent and particularly
like the fact that it is used for more than one purpose in the product.

(It probably helps that a group of us came up with a similar construct
for a startup company six years ago. It probably also helps that I very
much like designs that re-use familiar user constructs.)


BF> I believe one of the
BF> points made in the beginning was that TB treated all MIME parts as
BF> attachments, even when they were not.

What are the other bits of MIME body-parts, if they are not
"attachments"?  I do not understand how some are attachments and some
are not.  What does this mean?


BF> The messages in a MIME digest aren't attachments.

the digest, itself, is.

or, at least, it is on an equal logical level as other bits of mime
body-parts.

MIME does not do a good job of distinguishing body-parts that are an
inline part of the main message, versus body-parts that are external
(and should be handled separately.) It is designed as a uniform
hierarchy. This makes it difficult to know where logical boundaries are.


BF> Again, the above is surely all a matter of opinion.

Not just opinion.  User interface design "usability" has an empirical
component.  Better vs. worse designs affect usability in measurable
ways.  So this sort of discussion should include some attempts to
describe how one approach is more "usable" for more users.


BF>   So I say that TB
BF> accepts MIME messages, however its treatment of such messages does not
BF> conform to the wishes of all its users

Unfortunately UI design benefits are, at best, statistical.  There is
not such thing as a user interface that conforms to the wishes of all
users.


BF> In the preview pane I'd like to see the whole digest for instance, with
BF> each message separated by a visual marker of some sort.

For long messages, that means you would have a viewer pane that scrolls
forever.  How is this a good thing?


BF>   Look at Agent
BF> to see how this is handled very cleanly

if you mean , then the screen shot they
offer looks pretty similar to TB.  How does it differ?


BF>  - it also does the bursting.

By "bursting", do you mean opening subordinate sets of messages within
the main viewer pane, rather than opening a new window with a virtual
folder pane and separate pane for viewing individual message contents
in?


BF> TB could just as easily show all the messages within the preview
BF> pane one after the other

Having separate MIME body-parts available through separate tabs, at the
bottom of the contents viewer pane, works pretty well for me.


d/
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 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Best Alternative E-Mail Programs

[Dave Crocker]

Tuesday, February 4, 2003, 6:33:53 PM, you wrote:
TF> Good one. But then, somebody else posted how great IncrediMail is...

Based on the demo IncrediMail offers, it seems pretty clear that their
product is for people who want to be entertained, rather than people who
want to get work done.  Different market from TB.


d/
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 Dave 
 Brandenburg InternetWorking 
 t +1.408.246.8253; f +1.408.850.1850



Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Viewing long addressee lists

[Dave Crocker]

Miguel,

Your suggestion is useful, but of course it is very inconvenient.

I would greatly like to see TB display the full content of a header --
including address header -- directly.

d/

Tuesday, February 25, 2003, 1:46:45 AM, you wrote:
>> At the moment I have to reply-to-all, then click the "Address Book" button
>> to show the full list in a readable form.
>> 
>> Is there an easier way to do this?

MAU> With the cursor on the message window (pane), right click and select
MAU> "RFC-822 headers" and scroll to the To: field.

d/
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Current version is 1.62 | "Using TBUDL" information:
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Re: Where do I find the NOD32 plugin?

[Dave Crocker]

Allie,

thanks for the followup.

AM> It'll be more a Winsock scanner than a POP3 scanner.

cool.

DC>> on the other hand, i noticed that using nod32 without an explicit scan
DC>> at the time of retrieving email meant that virus made it into my file
DC>> system.  (I had set nod32 to scan all files when they were created, but
DC>> it apparently does not always work.)

AM> I don't know if you have it setup to scan all file types.

oops.  thought I had set that correctly, but hadn't.


This is probably an example of a user interface design issue that I've
come to appreciate.  Namely, there needs to be a collection of
"primitive" capabilities, with a layer on top for simplified use.  In
this case, fast/normal/paranoid would be 3 settings for the simplified
user interface, where paranoid would scan all files.

(This is not a criticism of nod32, per se, but a bit of generic lobbying
for a particular approach to UI design.)

d/
--
 Dave Crocker <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com>
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