Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 11:43:19 PM, Oleg wrote: It doesn't remain in memory -- it is dumped to swapfile and next time I will need it it will be ready a bit faster than if started again. It will be an economy of my time if I use it frequently. On the time scale you're talking about, if you /really/ need the few ns that it /might/ save, you need to look at cutting down on other business in your life and not worry about placing programs into the swap file. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZOmT3pf7K2LbpnFEQLToACfR7g6UZ0iMfrfv91H8ea7Lhkvm+MAoNXr +tIKdj0MEfv3L+WsNC0+i2Ck =GEi3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 11:43:19 PM, Oleg wrote: It doesn't remain in memory -- it is dumped to swapfile and next time I will need it it will be ready a bit faster than if started again. It will be an economy of my time if I use it frequently. You know, I replied too soon. Ok, your contention is that it doesn't remain in memory, that it dumps into the swap file and is loaded from that. Fine, it is still all disk access so I don't believe the speed gain is all that much, a few ns at best as I indicated in my previous message. However, the argument is that if you're using the editor often enough it is faster to leave it in memory than to load it up each time, right? Well, I believe that if you're using it often enough to want to leave it in memory (aside from the HUGE editors, which we're not talking about) that it is most likely already /IN/ memory. That silly thing called the disk cache that most modern OSs implement automatically, including Windows. Yesterday I finally mucked around with vim/gvim and got vgim into some of the windows menus and made a shortcut for it on my launcher. I loaded it a good 20 times yesterday from the start bar and exited it 20 times, also. At no time did I ever have to wait for it to start up. From nothing to loaded, even without the disk cache, was less than a blink of an eye, literally. That includes any syntax highlighting scripts that it loaded for the code I was working on at the moment. Since I loaded it so often I am willing to bet that after the first one it was in the cache. I didn't notice a difference on startup. In fact, sitting here double clicking the icon for gvim as fast as I can it comes up as fast as I do it, 20-30 windows straight. Therefore I feel the whole argument of "Well, it saves me time on loadup" is most likely dogma from the authors of the program and unless you're on a machine where TB! itself would be dog slow to load up any decent editor that would be used for composing email does not need to be kept in memory or swap or whatever they want to claim this time for any speed considerations at all. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZOonHpf7K2LbpnFEQJSEwCgsgi5SR+7IIWXc98C3vYYSU8JYLMAnRwr JYsS0s8f9vFDGR9zTGSj0b1T =MSVV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Friday, August 11, 2000, 3:40:39 AM, Soth wrote: Then why were you so eager to term it "another notepad wannabe"? Because most, if not all, ASCII editors on Windows aren't much above that level. I've taken a look at UltraEdit and wasn't impressed by it in the least. Same stuff, different programmer The last time that I tried gvim for Windows, 2 months or so ago, I was left very disappointed. Why? It is vim. I find it rather pleasing to have the same editor on my Windows box as I do my Linux box and my Solaris box and most of the Solaris boxen I work on at work. It hasn't failed me yet. What were you expecting from gvim that vim doesn't do? - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZPbTXpf7K2LbpnFEQKPxACfXIs7gfj4FHoG9xEDOcksz2iqAksAn1N8 A6hh5sh2P13Gdzmq/tK80aeO =IQpK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Friday, August 11, 2000, 5:03:19 AM, Soth wrote: I don't believe that's a justifiable claim. Oh, it is more than justifiable. I downloaded it and boy did the problems come flooding in. First off, default colors were completely unacceptable. When I changed them none of the context highlighting matched their basic lines to the defaults. BAD. Not to mention the default context highlighting colors were horrid in the first place. Half the things were unreadable. Dare I even mention that it had all of, what, 5 highlight types? Failed to reflow a quoted paragraph. MDI application. That is about 82 strikes against it right there. Very few, if any, of the commands were accessible from the keyboard. When coding, typing a letter to mom or composing an email guess where my hands are? If you guessed the mouse, you're wrong. That is a HUGE strike against it right there. I didn't learn the single most important lesson about basic text editing. The primary input is the /keyboard/ so /all/ important commands should be accessible from the keyboard. That alone barely puts it above Notepad. Complete lack of Regex. Text editing without regex is unacceptable, completely. UltraEdit, is basically Notepad with the lousy MDI interface and /some/ cutesy tricks bolted on in a haphazard fashion. It is completely unsuited for any heavy duty editing of any sort. $30 for it is too kind. The last editor I paid for, Mr. Ed on OS/2, at least had most commands on the keyboard. I don't recall what else it did or did not do since that was a good 5 years ago? - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZQv3npf7K2LbpnFEQJrRACcDSeci//hprk9Bn93+vf/KTvLK5cAoK72 Xa0rnyTNZytwgNM7vf9MZdc/ =Qg9u -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 21:00:50 -0700, Kenneth Porter wrote: snip KP Another approach is to use a DDE-aware editor. (Epsilon is also one KP of these.) The client program (eg. TB or PMMail) can send a DDE KP message to an existing instance of such a program to open a file, KP and register some kind of callback or reply address (I don't know KP the details) to register when the file is saved and it's time to KP send. One could then configure a hot-key in the editor to send a KP "send this message" command back to the mail client. PMMail does NOT KP implement this kind of capability, though. Epsilon could in KP principle be configured to work with this interface. It can also KP invoke entry points in user-supplied DLL's to provide an arbitrary KP interface. This is the sort of thing I'm referring to Kenneth. Having to close the editor every time in PMMail is plain awkward. It may be natural to Steve but it's bad. I'd only put up with it if I really much preferred the external editor over the internal one. -- -=A.C. Martin=-[TB! v1.46 Beta/3 «» Win2k Pro SP1] PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey "Apathy Error: Don't bother striking any key. " -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 2:43:00 AM, Oleg wrote: SL use are a little more advaced than the garden variety notepad programmed by a SL shareware wannabe visual basic programmer? Because I don't exit my UltraEdit. I just close project with all files and UE got minimized to tray when last window closed. And If I will Like I said, a cheap, garden variety notepad wannabe. Get a real editor. Unless you've got Word or Emacs there is /NO/ need for the editor to remain in memory except to slow your machine down. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZKuOXpf7K2LbpnFEQK+PQCZARkchobWuXV4I5QVUJnkjTnifSgAoImm EsgZlcpBvArKpvVzRP+SUyGM =RLjX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 7:20:46 AM, Jamie wrote: So what exactly is better than UltraEdit? In my opinion and it blows Word and Emacs out of the water. I've never used it. Why should I when I've had joe and vim? - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZLE+Hpf7K2LbpnFEQLkQQCeM74ewQofm3jCkF7OR3w6xBMJqa8AoP3U MQqK+UlWAULC2ud5NJhPpvYr =UHLW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 10:51:18 AM, Kenneth wrote: Ideally there should be a standard editor "server protocol" that all editors should support so that editor-using clients (like mail composition programs) need not include an editor but can tie to the user's personal favorite. Currently the only such protocol is to invoke a new instance of the editor with a filename as a parameter. What other protocol is there that will work across all platforms? Every other form of direct process control is platform specific. The only things you can count on are the basics on the OS level. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZLvwHpf7K2LbpnFEQKaMACfeeLkbDuFtc81oaiLYYroVdd+GScAn0vp ZGYOqyVB+ErKUr6YEy7VSLAh =HEs7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:09:01 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: What other protocol is there that will work across all platforms? Every other form of direct process control is platform specific. The only things you can count on are the basics on the OS level. First, does it need to be cross-platform? Would one run an email client and editor on different machines? Second, if you've got an email client, you've got TCP/IP, so you could use sockets for carrying the messages. Additionally, at least Windows and *nix have some kind of named pipe (AKA FIFO) and I expect most other OS's have something comparable, so a small wrapper to hide the OS API details would be all that's needed to create a suitable cross-platform IPC mechanism. The real question is the scope of the communication between a persistent editor server and a suite of editor clients. I think one just needs new, open, and close signals to the edit server and a save signal to the client. Ken mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/ http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/ Kill the Carnivore! http://www.lp.org/action/carnivore/ -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 12:32:09 PM, Kenneth wrote: First, does it need to be cross-platform? Would one run an email client and editor on different machines? TB! will soon be on Linux. The issue isn't what the user will do, but what the programmers will do. The real question is the scope of the communication between a persistent editor server and a suite of editor clients. I think one just needs new, open, and close signals to the edit server and a save signal to the client. Which needs to be defined for each editor. Most editors can't even implement anything more complex than a simple search and replace correctly. I doubt they would even begin to consider this. No, the file open/close method is the best because it works with everything regardless of the competency of the programmers. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZMURHpf7K2LbpnFEQKavACg1/Z0cHIRlDAhaCuBqQB3A5g3F6IAoM0a bylmYrhCnyij2m+WyQ06fgao =/Mv/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:44:52 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: TB! will soon be on Linux. Cool! Which needs to be defined for each editor. Most editors can't even implement anything more complex than a simple search and replace correctly. I doubt they would even begin to consider this. No, the file open/close method is the best because it works with everything regardless of the competency of the programmers. I was thinking that more powerful editors like those you and I use could implement this as either a core function or in an add-on DLL (.so for Linux). Stupider editors could rely on a small wrapper app that does the current job of launch and wait for exit. Ken mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/ http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/ Kill the Carnivore! http://www.lp.org/action/carnivore/ -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday, August 10, 2000, 2:22:25 PM, Kenneth wrote: I was thinking that more powerful editors like those you and I use could implement this as either a core function or in an add-on DLL (.so for Linux). Stupider editors could rely on a small wrapper app that does the current job of launch and wait for exit. Its not something that I would count on without a seriously formalized standard of some sort. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZMhY3pf7K2LbpnFEQKtxgCeOXUqfqI4+xn1jH4T5qDlmovRf4gAn3c/ MVGsKGKn+PF839n91cJ+COAz =LDvY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors
Greetings Kenneth! On Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:00:50 GMT -0700 (which was 9:00 PM where you think I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed: KP On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:37:54 -0500, Curtis wrote: I have a problem with it personally. Why can't the send action be made to close the editor? SL How is it supposed to? If I knew I wouldn't be asking. I asked why can't it be done. I'm actually giving PMMail the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the reason why it doesn't work like that is because it can't be done. Anyway, if a 'hook' can be used to open the editor, I don't see why one can't be used to close it. I'm not a programmer as you know so please clarify for me. KP One can invoke a child process (ie. an editor) with specified arguments KP (ie. name of the message file) and then wait for it to exit. In PMMail KP I click on the "external editor" button and the current message window KP disappears and Epsilon (a commercial Emacs clone) opens with the KP message (no header, though). When I'm done editing, I save the file KP (typically a temp file) and exit Epsilon, and the message window KP reopens with the modified text. KP When configuring the editor, one can specify the command line to use to KP launch it, including where in the command line to put the message file KP name. KP Another approach is to use a DDE-aware editor. (Epsilon is also one of KP these.) The client program (eg. TB or PMMail) can send a DDE message to KP an existing instance of such a program to open a file, and register KP some kind of callback or reply address (I don't know the details) to KP register when the file is saved and it's time to send. One could then KP configure a hot-key in the editor to send a "send this message" command KP back to the mail client. PMMail does NOT implement this kind of KP capability, though. Epsilon could in principle be configured to work KP with this interface. It can also invoke entry points in user-supplied KP DLL's to provide an arbitrary interface. I wonder if TB_addon.dll is something we need to make this work? caould we figure out a way to replace batpgpxx.dll with another onoe and select it from the menu -- ... Intermittent monitor problems can always be cured with The Bat! --- The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 + 98Lite + Revenge of Mozilla II -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
