Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 17:23 +0100, Karel Volný wrote:
> Dne Ne 2. prosince 2012 20:15:18, Adam Williamson napsal(a):
> > On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 18:54 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> > > On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:46 PM, drago01  wrote:
> > > Pretty good summary why I think this screen is just a mess
> > > from an UI pov.
> > > 
> > > Agree it´s a disaster. And if you´re a coder and you can´t take
> > > negative feedback from users, "please, go do something else". *to
> > > paraphrase a poster higher in this thread* ;-)
> > 
> > There is a large difference between negative (constructive) feedback and
> > a flamethrower.
> 
> well, while there really exists such a difference, I do not think it 
> justifies 
> sending people away from Fedora ... since when we have so many users that we 
> have to repulse them?
> 
> isn't there a connection between number of users and number of developers? - 
> how much people we can lose before the distro dies?
> 
> and even a "flamethrower" is a valid feedback - the developers can see that 
> they did something really wrong so that someone (who isn't on drugs, I 
> suppose) had the urge to write such a reaction ... but that would really need 
> to do something about the ivory towers ...

This gets into a very general discussion, but there is a fairly solid
case to be made that excessively aggressive behaviour on mailing lists
doesn't just discourage those it's aimed at, but a substantial number of
potential contributors who do not feel comfortable jumping into such an
environment.

To put it simply: if you see a pit full of toothy monsters firing
flamethrowers at each other, and someone says 'to contribute, just jump
in there, bare your teeth, grab a flamethrower, and join in!', it takes
a certain type of person with a certain mentality to jump in. It is
noticeable that certain Fedora mailing lists seem to be populated by
rather a lot of tooth-baring, flamethrower-totin' types, and few others.
-- 
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Re: Anaconda Accolades

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 17:42 -0700, Peter Gueckel wrote:
> No need to comment. Just want to pass on experience to those up the 
> ladder.
> 
> 1. Stupid 20-minute pause (waiting for a timeout?) before the 
> installation got underway.
> 
> 2. My Intel ipw2200 wireless simply works! One configuration at 
> install time and it works for every boot. Wow!
> 
> 3. I wasn't sure about the NTP exclamation mark, so I left it and 
> ran 'timedatectl set-ntp 1' after installation completed. 
> Hopefully, everything is correct.
> 
> 4. The dumb "reclaim space" button threw me after I selected 'ext4' 
> and "let me customize disk partitioning", but it seemed the only 
> choice, so I clicked it.
> 
> 5. I really liked how all of my OSes were detected: Fedora 15, 
> Fedora 16 and Fedora 17. I wanted to reformat the Fedora 15 
> partition, so I clicked it and it opened up to display a root and 
> swap. I entered / and reformat for root and left swap untouched (I 
> want F16 and F17 fallback systems to still be able to use it, so it 
> wouldn't be good to risk it getting a new label).
> 
> Conclusion: Despite the initial delay, all went swiftly and 
> smoothly, without a hitch.
> 
> Grade: somewhere in the B+ to A- range. Great job!

Thanks for the praise, but the 20 minute pause is somewhat worrying. Did
you watch the console (probably too much to ask, but hey :>) and see any
messages that might relate to a timeout? Did you pick the media
verification option or not? If you did, can you boot without it and see
if it 'fixes' the delay? Thanks.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
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Re: FedUp just reboots

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 21:10 +0200, Ville-Pekka Vainio wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T430 with EFI enabled and Fedora 17 installed. 
> I tried to use FedUp to upgrade it to Fedora 18. The first problem was 
> that the system for some reason had both grub-efi and grub2 installed, 
> so FedUp's grubby call failed. I fixed that by removing the grub2 packages.
> 
> The second problem was more difficult. When I chose System Upgrade from 
> Grub, the system seemed to boot but then immediately rebooted as well. 
> Maybe something in the upgrade scripts failed and caused the reboot?
> 
> I managed to start the upgrade by changing the systemd target to 
> systemd.unit=rescue.target on the Grub command line and then when the 
> system booted to the rescue mode, I ran systemctl isolate 
> system-upgrade.target . Now the upgrade is running but I've seen a 
> couple of SELinux messages, I guess I'll find out soon if the system is 
> completely hosed ;)

I think you're either the first or second to try fedup with UEFI,
so...this may be just what happens :)

Tim, did you try UEFI fedup or not? I forget. If so, what was your
bootloader experience?
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Re: community etiquette (Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?)

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2012-12-04 at 02:05 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

> In the case of Anaconda's current partitioning stage, I can't see job #1 
> success providing enough help for a successful rescue. It's so unintuitive it 
> seems to me that instead of trying to improve it it would make more sense to 
> cobble together a new foundation system for the F17 UI, along with making 
> whatever changes to it are necessary on account of F17 feature shortcomings. 
> If that turns out to be good enough, fine, but if a whole new Anaconda is to 
> be that can make fewer people unhappy, it needs to be built on a parallel 
> path so that whatever time is required to get the job done right can be given 
> it instead of being shoehorned into so short a release cycle as Fedora's.

It was. If you read the timestamps on the blog posts and design stuff we
keep trying to persuade you to read, you will note that newUI has been
under development for at least two years. I'm really getting tired of
people trying to debate this based on complete misunderstanding of what
are very simple facts.

As several people have pointed out, your actions in this thread seem
completely at odds with the proverb you quote in your sig. You do not
appear to be making any effort at all to understand newUI or the design
process it involved, nor are you making much of an effort to deploy
pleasant words in an attempt to persuade. Several anaconda developers
have told me that posts like yours are the reason they don't read this
list themselves, and I and others have to act as messengers to try and
filter out the unnecessary negativity and try to convey any nugget of
practical data these kinds of messages contain. It's not something we
have a lot of _fun_ doing. Throwing out ridiculous suggestions like
'cobble together a new foundation system for the F17 UI' really isn't
doing much to help anyone achieve anything.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
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Re: bugzilla question

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 13:51 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 11:14:30AM -0700, Peter Gueckel wrote:
> > There are cases where you are the reporter, but do not wish to be 
> > an active participant, follow all of the discussion, etc.
> > There appears to be no way to opt out. Or is there?
> 
> Generally it's assumed that the reporter will be interested in what's going
> on with their report, and may have further contributions to make, so I think
> no one has implemented the feature you're looking for.

I don't think anyone would *want* to, either, because Bugzilla is
ultimately a tool for developers, and developers don't want bug reports
where they can't contact the reporter, usually.
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Re: community etiquette (Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?)

[Felix Miata]

On 2012-12-03 22:43 (GMT-0500) Matthew Miller composed:


Okay, here's the thing: you *can't* be rude here. Not just you, but anyone.
It's against the rules of the mailing list in specific and our community in
general. You've been around for a long time so you know this.


I also know there's not a clear demarcation between rude and not rude, but a 
big gray blurry meandering river, particularly when the subject matter is a 
tangled mix of objective and subjective. When to take a break has a similar 
problem.



I hear that you're frustrated, but underneath that you must know that the
people working on the Anaconda development have no goal but to make the UI
better. We all know it's still kind of rough (beta, of a first revision!),
but it's one thing to have a civil discourse about specific issues and
possible improvements�and another to resort to personal attacks on the
competence of the people putting all of their effort into this.


Less gray. I wasn't aware of making any _personal_ attacks. Maybe I did a 
poor job of it, but my aim was demonstrating through contextual imagery how a 
process failed, and continues to fail, through lack of awareness of the #1 
fundament of good usability. If you can't read it, and its words matter, it's 
stillborn, complete failure.


In the case of Anaconda's current partitioning stage, I can't see job #1 
success providing enough help for a successful rescue. It's so unintuitive it 
seems to me that instead of trying to improve it it would make more sense to 
cobble together a new foundation system for the F17 UI, along with making 
whatever changes to it are necessary on account of F17 feature shortcomings. 
If that turns out to be good enough, fine, but if a whole new Anaconda is to 
be that can make fewer people unhappy, it needs to be built on a parallel 
path so that whatever time is required to get the job done right can be given 
it instead of being shoehorned into so short a release cycle as Fedora's.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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f18: Quick switching between gnome-shell desktop and some tty1 lets my box freeze

[Joachim Backes]

Hi all,

I'm using kernel-3.6.9-1.fc18.x86_64 and a fully updated f18.

Problem: If I switch bewteen the gnome-shell desktop and some tty
(ctrl+alt+Fn) rather quickly, then it happens very often that after some
time my box freezes if switching back from that tty to the gnome-shell
desktop.

Anybody has seen this too?

Kind regards


Joachim Backes 

https://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~backes

PGP key ID: 0x1BB12F9E
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WLAN hidden name

[Joerg Lechner]

At the beginning of Fedora 18 Beta installation the WLAN installation screen 
shows all existing named WLAN networks, but not mine hidden network, i.e. noted 
as "hidden network". To join my hidden network I have to choose a named network 
and overwrite the network data with the data of the hidden network. In my 
opinion there should be an entry for a hidden network.
Warm regards
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Fedora 16 updates-testing report

[updates]

The following Fedora 16 Security updates need testing:
 Age  URL
  73  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-14452/bacula-5.0.3-33.fc16
   1  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19538/weechat-0.3.9.2-2.fc16
  46  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-16415/389-ds-base-1.2.10.16-1.fc16
  30  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-17553/libproxy-0.4.10-1.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19267/plexus-cipher-1.5-11.fc16
   0  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19347/cups-1.5.4-9.fc16
 151  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-10314/revelation-0.4.14-1.fc16
  71  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-14654/tor-0.2.2.39-1600.fc16
  10  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18927/cups-pk-helper-0.1.3-4.fc16
   4  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19357/kernel-3.6.8-2.fc16
  52  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-16032/cobbler-2.4.0-beta2.fc16
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18687/libssh-0.5.3-1.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19227/squashfs-tools-4.2-5.fc16
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19449/drupal6-ctools-1.10-1.fc16
  34  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-17291/thunderbird-16.0.2-1.fc16
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19455/php-symfony2-HttpFoundation-2.0.19-1.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18330/perl-CGI-3.52-203.fc16,perl-5.14.3-203.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19195/php-symfony-symfony-1.4.20-2.fc16
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18661/firefox-17.0-1.fc16,xulrunner-17.0-3.fc16,thunderbird-enigmail-1.4.6-2.fc16,thunderbird-lightning-1.9-1.fc16,thunderbird-17.0-1.fc16


The following Fedora 16 Critical Path updates have yet to be approved:
 Age URL
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19471/xulrunner-17.0.1-1.fc16,firefox-17.0.1-1.fc16
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19486/phonon-backend-gstreamer-4.6.2-2.fc16
   4  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19357/kernel-3.6.8-2.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19265/lxpanel-0.5.10-3.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19227/squashfs-tools-4.2-5.fc16
  10  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18927/cups-pk-helper-0.1.3-4.fc16
  11  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18857/koji-1.7.1-1.fc16
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18687/libssh-0.5.3-1.fc16
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18692/NetworkManager-0.9.6.4-2.fc16
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18330/perl-CGI-3.52-203.fc16,perl-5.14.3-203.fc16
The following builds have been pushed to Fedora 16 updates-testing

cups-1.5.4-9.fc16
pdfresurrect-0.12-1.fc16
pencil-2.0.3-1.fc16
python-beautifulsoup4-4.1.3-1.fc16
python-exif-1.1.0-1.fc16
tcpflow-1.3.0-1.fc16
uperf-1.0.4-1.fc16
xosview-1.11-1.fc16

Details about builds:



 cups-1.5.4-9.fc16 (FEDORA-2012-19347)
 Common Unix Printing System

Update Information:

This update addresses CVE-2012-5519 by moving certain configuration keywords 
into a separate file, cups-files.conf, which cannot be modified by cupsd.

ChangeLog:

* Mon Dec  3 2012 Tim Waugh  1:1.5.4-9
- Applied additional upstream patch for CVE-2012-5519 so that the
  RemoteRoot keyword is recognised in the correct configuration file.
* Mon Dec  3 2012 Tim Waugh  1:1.5.4-8
- Fixed patch for CVE-2012-5519 so that LogFilePerm and LPDConfigFile
  are recognised keywords for cups-files.conf (bug #882379).
* Wed Nov 28 2012 Tim Waugh  1:1.5.4-7
- Fixed paths in config migration %post script.
- Set default cups-files.conf filename.
* Mon Nov 26 2012 Tim Waugh  1:1.5.4-6
- Apply upstream fix for CVE-2012-5519 (STR #4223, bug #875898).
  Migrate configuration keywords as needed.
* Mon Oct 22 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.4-5
- Add quirk rule for Xerox Phaser 3124 (#867392)
* Mon Oct  1 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.4-4
- improved usblp-quirks.patch (bug #847923, STR #4191)
* Thu Sep 20 2012 Tim Waugh  1:1.5.4-3
- The cups-libs subpackage contains code distributed under the zlib
  license (md5.c).
* Thu Aug 23 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.4-2
- quirk handler for port reset done by new USB backend (bug #847923, STR #4155)
* Thu Jul 26 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.4-1
- 1.5.4
* Mon May 28 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.3-2
- Buildrequire libusb1 (STR #3477)
* Tue May 15 2012 Jiri Popelka  1:1.5.3-1
- 1.5.3
-

Fedora 17 updates-testing report

[updates]

The following Fedora 17 Security updates need testing:
 Age  URL
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19442/php-symfony2-HttpFoundation-2.1.4-1.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19233/plexus-cipher-1.5-11.fc17
   1  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19533/weechat-0.3.9.2-2.fc17
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19341/openstack-keystone-2012.1.3-3.fc17
  71  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-14650/tor-0.2.2.39-1700.fc17
  10  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18950/cups-pk-helper-0.2.2-2.fc17
  52  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-16048/cobbler-2.4.0-beta2.fc17
   4  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19349/mc-4.8.6-2.fc17
   8  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19042/mate-settings-daemon-1.5.3-5.fc17
   0  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19606/cups-1.5.4-15.fc17
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18659/gnome-system-log-3.4.1-3.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19203/squashfs-tools-4.2-5.fc17
 151  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-10269/revelation-0.4.14-1.fc17
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19464/drupal6-ctools-1.10-1.fc17
   0  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19605/totpcgi-0.5.4-1.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19282/perl-CGI-3.52-218.fc17,perl-5.14.3-218.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19235/php-symfony-symfony-1.4.20-2.fc17


The following Fedora 17 Critical Path updates have yet to be approved:
 Age URL
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19451/xulrunner-17.0.1-1.fc17,firefox-17.0.1-1.fc17
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19496/control-center-3.4.3-1.fc17,libwacom-0.6.1-1.fc17,gnome-settings-daemon-3.4.2-4.fc17
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19478/mutter-3.4.1-4.fc17
   2  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19446/phonon-backend-gstreamer-4.6.2-2.fc17
   4  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19344/xorg-x11-drv-intel-2.20.14-1.fc17
   4  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19350/ModemManager-0.6.0.0-2.fc17
   4  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19354/xfwm4-4.8.3-3.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19262/bash-4.2.39-2.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19252/openssh-5.9p1-28.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19282/perl-CGI-3.52-218.fc17,perl-5.14.3-218.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19208/lxpanel-0.5.10-3.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19203/squashfs-tools-4.2-5.fc17
   8  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19048/json-c-0.10-2.fc17
   8  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19014/json-c-0.10-1.fc17
   8  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-19006/nss-util-3.14-1.fc17,nss-softokn-3.14-5.fc17,nss-3.14-7.fc17
  10  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18950/cups-pk-helper-0.2.2-2.fc17
  10  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18937/kdelibs-4.9.3-4.fc17
   5  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18850/cronie-1.4.10-1.fc17
  12  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18759/python-urlgrabber-3.9.1-17.fc17
  13  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18651/jack-audio-connection-kit-1.9.8-11.fc17
   0  
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2012-18329/abrt-2.0.19-2.fc17,libreport-2.0.19-3.fc17,btparser-0.23-1.fc17
The following builds have been pushed to Fedora 17 updates-testing

abrt-2.0.19-2.fc17
armadillo-3.4.4-1.fc17
autofs-5.0.6-23.fc17
btparser-0.23-1.fc17
cups-1.5.4-15.fc17
gcompris-12.11-1.fc17
gdigi-0.3.0-20121203git.2.fc17
gnome-chemistry-utils-0.13.99-1.fc17
libnetfilter_conntrack-1.0.2-1.fc17
libnetfilter_queue-1.0.2-1.fc17
libnfnetlink-1.0.1-1.fc17
libreport-2.0.19-3.fc17
libvisio-0.0.23-1.fc17
mediatomb-0.12.1-21.fc17
octave-odepkg-0.8.2-2.fc17
openslide-3.3.2-1.fc17
pam_url-0.3.1-1.fc17
pdfresurrect-0.12-1.fc17
pencil-2.0.3-1.fc17
python-beautifulsoup4-4.1.3-1.fc17
python-exif-1.1.0-1.fc17
rubygem-simplecov-0.7.1-5.fc17
slowhttptest-1.5-1.fc17
synapse-0.2.10-4.fc17
tcpflow-1.3.0-1.fc17
totpcgi-0.5.4-1.fc17
unetbootin-0-11.581bzr.fc17
uperf-1.0.4-1.fc17
vino-3.4.2-2.fc17
wireshark-1.6.12-1.fc17
xosview-1.11-1.fc17

Details about builds:



 abrt-2.0.19-2.fc17 (FEDORA-2012-18329)
 Automatic bug detection and reporting tool
-

community etiquette (Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?)

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 02:35:15PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> I admit, I do have problem dealing with rudeness without being rude
> in the process. As someone using the web constantly, I'm constantly
> overwhelmed by pervasive web styling rudeness, in a virtually
> constant state of frustration.

Okay, here's the thing: you *can't* be rude here. Not just you, but anyone.
It's against the rules of the mailing list in specific and our community in
general. You've been around for a long time so you know this.

I hear that you're frustrated, but underneath that you must know that the
people working on the Anaconda development have no goal but to make the UI
better. We all know it's still kind of rough (beta, of a first revision!),
but it's one thing to have a civil discourse about specific issues and
possible improvementsand another to resort to personal attacks on the
competence of the people putting all of their effort into this.

Not coincidentally, the path which will actually make Fedora (and Anaconda)
better *and* the path of acceptable behavior in the community are exactly
the same.

I found this quote in your signature, and it's clearly wisdom:

> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

I encourage you to think on that, take some cooling off time if necessary,
and come back with an apology -- and hopefully, some constructive and
positive suggestions.

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Re: Blocker Bug Voting and Conversation

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:19 -0700, Tim Flink wrote:
> I don't think that anyone is a huge fan of the current blocker bug
> process. I realize that the people most affected by the process are
> really busy right now but I also think that it wouldn't be a bad thing
> to start a conversation while the process is active and at its most
> painful. I don't really want this to devolve into a long flamewar about
> how bad the process is (I probably spend more time with the process
> than most people, I know it has issues) but I would like to start a
> conversation about some of it.
> 
> This conversation affects both test@ and devel@, so please try to send
> replies to both lists.
> 
> I'm trying to think through methods to improve the process but I
> ended up with some questions that need more than just my input:
> How useful is it to have the blocker votes and conversation in the bug?
> I think that it needs to be public, archived and easily accessible from
> affected bugs but I'm questioning the value of having conversations
> about blocker status within bugzilla comments.

My take on this is that 'public, archived and easily accessible' are
precisely the important criteria. The existing process was thrown
together on the back of a napkin, more or less, and tracking it in the
report itself was the obvious, easy way to do it in such a way that we
wouldn't lose the data later. I don't see any problem with doing it
somewhere else, so long as that 'somewhere else' meets the criteria.

> Affected Devs:
>  - Do you find the blocker related conversations in bugzilla comments
>helpful? Annoying? Don't really care?
> 
>  - Do you want to be more involved in the blocker process? Less
>involved and just notified about status changes?
> 
> Affected Voters:
>  - Do you vote on blocker status in bug comments?

Yes.

>  - Would you vote on blocker status more often if you could easily vote
>outside of meetings?

I do my best, but probably.

>  - Do you want to receive status updates on the bugs you vote on, even
>if those status updates don't deal directly with blocker status?

Not terribly applicable to me, as I want to know everything about just
about every bug =)

> Anyhow, helpful thoughts would be appreciated. Hopefully we can improve
> the process so that it's less painful for everyone and maybe even more
> useful (at the very least, less difficult to understand).

I don't want to overplay how bad the current system is, to be honest.
It's a duct tape job, sure, but it's survived as long as it has because
it actually achieves its goals fairly efficiently. I think we can
definitely build something more solid, but let's not throw out any
babies...
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Re: The heroes of Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 07:32 -0500, Kamil Paral wrote:

> > And what's this refering to " adamwill/viking-ice "
> 
> I could have manually adjusted some quirks, I did not. This one comes
> from
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_18_Beta_RC1_Desktop

That's the one where we determined during the go/no-go meeting that each
of us had done a half of the test, so we could mark it as a 'pass' with
our combined experience. So I attributed it that way.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 18:13 -0500, Eric Blake wrote:

>  But after that install, when I switched over to the F18 Beta
> installer, I could not get things to work - anaconda just crashed on me.
> I finally resorted to installing another copy of F17 and using fedup to
> convert it to F18.

Well, the crash is clearly simply a bug, not a design flaw.

> It took me at least 15 minutes to understand enough of the F18 custom
> partitioning screen to even figure out what I was doing to request mount
> points for my new install; among other things, I didn't realize that
> there were no other OS's shown until I decrypted the LUKS container (as
> the probing of /etc/fstab couldn't proceed until it could read the lvm
> partitions).  

This is a design issue, though it might need to be more specifically
stated to start to figure out what to do about it. I haven't looked at
exactly how this case looks in a while...

> This is the bug
> report that ABRT created for me:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882722

Thanks, I'm sure the devs will look at it.

> Another usability bug I did not see mentioned here - in the custom screen,
> there is no way to have multiple OSs expanded at once.  Every time I clicked
> the small '+' button next to one OS to see what partitions were still
> assigned there, any other open OS was collapsed.  I wish there were a
> top-level expand-all button, or at least the abilty to leave more than
> one OS expanded at a time, rather than being forced to collapse one OS
> when switching to view another; I have not yet filed a usability bug
> for this UI aspect.

I think this is by-design rather than being a bug, but I don't know what
the rationale is. My proposed three-pane design, at least as I drew it,
has the 'new install' group expanded permanently, which may help.

> I will say that the anaconda in updates-testing was marginally better than
> the one that shipped with the beta image; among other things, instead of
> just showing two pieces of information per mount point (mount directory and
> generic description such as 'root'), it showed three (mount directory,
> generic description, and hardware name such as '/dev/sda5' or
> 'lv_root_fedora18' that I had already named when pre-creating the volume
> group), and that made a world of difference in understanding what I was
> doing, providing the confirmation I needed that I was designating the
> correct portion of the disk for the proposed mount point.

Yeah, that was planned for a while but missed the Beta freeze.
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 05:50 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

That's a good idea. Have you filed an RFE in bugzilla?


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883182

I wasn't sure on the component. Feel free to correct. Thanks!
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 08:47:42AM -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> There's a solution to this. Hard code the date in the installer when
> the ISO is created. We know today's date and it could be set in the
> installer before the UI starts. Then it doesn't matter what the
> person's system is set to. It doesn't need to be accurate to the
> exact second, but the year would be accurate and that should be more
> than enough to pass package script checks.

That's a good idea. Have you filed an RFE in bugzilla?

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Eric Blake]

> Based on this thread and feedback from others and the forums, I've
> created a series of bugs on *specifically identified* usability
> issues,
> all with the 'tag' [custom part usability]:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883134
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883138
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883141
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883148
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883150

Wow.  I also ran into usability problems over the weekend; my particular
use case was pre-partioning my disk into a single LVM volume group with
LUKS encryption in order to set up a multiboot environment with a shared
/home but separate / between the OSs.  I had no problems getting the F17
installer to reuse an existing lvm partition within the LUKS volume group
for '/'.  But after that install, when I switched over to the F18 Beta
installer, I could not get things to work - anaconda just crashed on me.
I finally resorted to installing another copy of F17 and using fedup to
convert it to F18.

It took me at least 15 minutes to understand enough of the F18 custom
partitioning screen to even figure out what I was doing to request mount
points for my new install; among other things, I didn't realize that
there were no other OS's shown until I decrypted the LUKS container (as
the probing of /etc/fstab couldn't proceed until it could read the lvm
partitions).  Finally, no matter what I did, even after upgrading to
the anaconda in updates-testing (18.34) rather than what shipped with
the beta (I think 18.29.2?), I still ended with anaconda crashing the
moment I tried to click the 'expand' button next to the new F18 OS
after first hitting the 'apply' button to accept my request to mount
'/' into one of the pre-existing lvm partitions.  This is the bug
report that ABRT created for me:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882722

Another usability bug I did not see mentioned here - in the custom screen,
there is no way to have multiple OSs expanded at once.  Every time I clicked
the small '+' button next to one OS to see what partitions were still
assigned there, any other open OS was collapsed.  I wish there were a
top-level expand-all button, or at least the abilty to leave more than
one OS expanded at a time, rather than being forced to collapse one OS
when switching to view another; I have not yet filed a usability bug
for this UI aspect.

[I debated about starting a new thread, since no one else in this thread
seems to have mentioned installing into a pre-existing LUKS volume group,
but this bug summary proved too tempting to not add another bug to the
list, not to mention that the term 'cryptoconda' seems somewhat apropos
to my failed attempt to install to a pre-existing LUKS encrypted partition]

I will say that the anaconda in updates-testing was marginally better than
the one that shipped with the beta image; among other things, instead of
just showing two pieces of information per mount point (mount directory and
generic description such as 'root'), it showed three (mount directory,
generic description, and hardware name such as '/dev/sda5' or
'lv_root_fedora18' that I had already named when pre-creating the volume
group), and that made a world of difference in understanding what I was
doing, providing the confirmation I needed that I was designating the
correct portion of the disk for the proposed mount point.

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 23:07 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:51:02 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > > The '+' button you mean is for creating mount-points. Yes, mount-points,
> > > too. The button opens a small dialog where to enter the mount-point and 
> > > the
> > > desired "capacity". Mount-points not partitions. It even says so 
> > > everywhere
> > > related to that dialog. ;)
> > 
> > Yes, it's a bit messy, isn't it: the text is talking about the big +,
> > but the big + is for creating *partitions*, not mount points. It's
> > certainly a bit confusing to have text that talks about 'creating mount
> > points', but the two actual viable operations are to 'set a mount point'
> > or to 'create a partition and give it a mount point'.
> 
> That may be true, but I cannot tell. What I see is:
> 
>   ADD A NEW MOUNT POINT
> 
>   More customization options are available
>   after creating the mount point below.
> 
>   Mount point: __
>   Desired capacity: __
> 
> [Cancel] [Add mount point]
> 
> There's pop-up help that gives examples for mount points (paths).
> Nowhere does it tell what it means to "create a mount point".
> A mount point is just a destination directory, a path. What does it
> create? A new partition (or logical volume) to mount at the mount point?

Basically it's creating a partition-type-thing. Call it a volume. One of
the bugs I filed is for this. It is not 'creating a mount point' in any
useful sense - the design isn't that you create mount points and then
back them with partitions, exactly.
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Blocker Bug Voting and Conversation

[Tim Flink]

I don't think that anyone is a huge fan of the current blocker bug
process. I realize that the people most affected by the process are
really busy right now but I also think that it wouldn't be a bad thing
to start a conversation while the process is active and at its most
painful. I don't really want this to devolve into a long flamewar about
how bad the process is (I probably spend more time with the process
than most people, I know it has issues) but I would like to start a
conversation about some of it.

This conversation affects both test@ and devel@, so please try to send
replies to both lists.

I'm trying to think through methods to improve the process but I
ended up with some questions that need more than just my input:
How useful is it to have the blocker votes and conversation in the bug?
I think that it needs to be public, archived and easily accessible from
affected bugs but I'm questioning the value of having conversations
about blocker status within bugzilla comments.

Affected Devs:
 - Do you find the blocker related conversations in bugzilla comments
   helpful? Annoying? Don't really care?

 - Do you want to be more involved in the blocker process? Less
   involved and just notified about status changes?

Affected Voters:
 - Do you vote on blocker status in bug comments?

 - Would you vote on blocker status more often if you could easily vote
   outside of meetings?

 - Do you want to receive status updates on the bugs you vote on, even
   if those status updates don't deal directly with blocker status?

Anyhow, helpful thoughts would be appreciated. Hopefully we can improve
the process so that it's less painful for everyone and maybe even more
useful (at the very least, less difficult to understand).

Tim


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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Michael Schwendt]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:51:02 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

> > The '+' button you mean is for creating mount-points. Yes, mount-points,
> > too. The button opens a small dialog where to enter the mount-point and the
> > desired "capacity". Mount-points not partitions. It even says so everywhere
> > related to that dialog. ;)
> 
> Yes, it's a bit messy, isn't it: the text is talking about the big +,
> but the big + is for creating *partitions*, not mount points. It's
> certainly a bit confusing to have text that talks about 'creating mount
> points', but the two actual viable operations are to 'set a mount point'
> or to 'create a partition and give it a mount point'.

That may be true, but I cannot tell. What I see is:

  ADD A NEW MOUNT POINT

  More customization options are available
  after creating the mount point below.

  Mount point: __
  Desired capacity: __

[Cancel] [Add mount point]

There's pop-up help that gives examples for mount points (paths).
Nowhere does it tell what it means to "create a mount point".
A mount point is just a destination directory, a path. What does it
create? A new partition (or logical volume) to mount at the mount point?

To see the extra options, I would have to enter a capacity that would
work. Possibly there's pop-up help also for the capacity field to tell
what units are accepted.

The one time I tried clicking the "Add mount point" button (in LVM mode
because a VG here contains some free space), I got an error message, which
suddenly referred to a more low-level term, a "device":

  Failed to add new device

And the details for this red error message at the bottom used even another
term:

  not enough free space on disks

Which sounds as if it didn't refer to a "volume group".
Plural even inspite of the single storage device I had selected early.
Another inconsistency. I don't want to keep bashing the installer, only
explain why I called it a "maze" in a different thread.

> Yes, and this is another confusing bit: the left hand pane shows you the
> mount point *within the old OS install*, while the 'Mount Point' text
> box in the _right_ hand pane lets you assign the partition a Mount Point
> *for the new OS install*.

True. The large '>' sign from the left section to the right makes it
even more confusing, since one wonders what the "Apply changes" button
refers to. It only refers to the *new* installation.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:18 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2012-12-03 12:56 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed:
> 
> > This stuff is hard, let's go shopping.
> 
> Maybe time for a fresh thread on a more appropriate list. Isn't this one for 
> feedback on what is?

Based on this thread and feedback from others and the forums, I've
created a series of bugs on *specifically identified* usability issues,
all with the 'tag' [custom part usability]:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883134
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883138
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883141
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883148
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883150

I've discussed most of these issues with the anaconda devs and with Mo
already, we've come up with some thoughts for several of them. Some of
these may be F19 stuff, depending on how big the fixes turn out to be.

If you have something to add to one of these *specific issues*, please
do so! But please don't broaden out each report by referring to other
usability issues, I'm trying to keep focused on one problem at a time
here. If you have a different specific usability problem, please file a
new bug on it - feel free to add the [custom part usability] 'tag' for
ease of searching.

Thanks!
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:15 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2012-12-03 11:48 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed:
> 
> > "A virtually constant state of frustation" is not a good basis for
> > interaction. There's lots of things that are prevalent in the world
> > which I don't like either, but if you spend all your time being
> > frustrated at them, it is going to negatively affect your wellbeing and
> > your interaction with others.
> 
> Exactly. So, let's make Anaconda one less source of frustration caused by 
> most of computing. Why does Anaconda's text sizing need to be smaller than 
> the text sizing in the software it ships with? There's plenty space. Why not 
> use it for something besides white?
> 
> Like on that web site, apparently Anaconda text sizing is done absolutely in 
> pixels instead of sized taking display density into account. That needs to be 
> changed. That way, most could get a similar yet usable view regardless of 
> local environment different from apparently youthful but naive software 
> designers.

anaconda is just using the advised GTK+ chain for text rendering, so far
as I know. pango, basically. And please stop with the unwarranted
extrapolations about the personal character of designers or developers.

> > Mo is using a stock wordpress theme.
> 
> The casual usability expert shopper knows this how?

It's in the URL? I don't know. If you're really concerned about her
website layout the appropriate thing to do would be to contact her
directly and express your concern. *Politely*. It's still completely
irrelevant to this discussion: using it as some kind of evidence against
her abilities as a UI designer was a needless stretch. If you want to
question the anaconda UI design, _question the design_. This will work
out a lot better from all perspectives than dragging in an entirely
unrelated issue.

I don't think we need to discuss this any further on test@. It has
nothing to do with testing Fedora. If you want to complain about a given
website's text rendering, contact that website through the appropriate
channels.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012-12-03 12:56 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed:


This stuff is hard, let's go shopping.


Maybe time for a fresh thread on a more appropriate list. Isn't this one for 
feedback on what is?

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012-12-03 11:48 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed:


"A virtually constant state of frustation" is not a good basis for
interaction. There's lots of things that are prevalent in the world
which I don't like either, but if you spend all your time being
frustrated at them, it is going to negatively affect your wellbeing and
your interaction with others.


Exactly. So, let's make Anaconda one less source of frustration caused by 
most of computing. Why does Anaconda's text sizing need to be smaller than 
the text sizing in the software it ships with? There's plenty space. Why not 
use it for something besides white?


Like on that web site, apparently Anaconda text sizing is done absolutely in 
pixels instead of sized taking display density into account. That needs to be 
changed. That way, most could get a similar yet usable view regardless of 
local environment different from apparently youthful but naive software 
designers.



Mo is using a stock wordpress theme.


The casual usability expert shopper knows this how?


It's a blog. She doesn't want to fiddle around with the CSS,


What she doesn't want is to impress upon her blog readers she can practice 
what she preaches.

--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:51 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 21:40 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:47 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > 
> > > Er, I think we have some "+" confusion going on here. The + being
> > > referred to is the big + button at the bottom of the pane. The small +es
> > > next to 'Fedora 17 x86-64', 'Ubuntu 12.04' or whatever are just
> > > expanders: they open up each group. The big + button at the bottom of
> > > the pane creates a partition.
> > 
> > The '+' button you mean is for creating mount-points. Yes, mount-points,
> > too. The button opens a small dialog where to enter the mount-point and the
> > desired "capacity". Mount-points not partitions. It even says so everywhere
> > related to that dialog. ;)
> 
> Yes, it's a bit messy, isn't it: the text is talking about the big +,
> but the big + is for creating *partitions*, not mount points. It's

clumens points out that it doesn't always create a partition: if you're
in LVM mode, it creates an LV. Still, 'partition' may be less wrong than
'mount point'. This stuff is hard, let's go shopping.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 21:40 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:47 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > Er, I think we have some "+" confusion going on here. The + being
> > referred to is the big + button at the bottom of the pane. The small +es
> > next to 'Fedora 17 x86-64', 'Ubuntu 12.04' or whatever are just
> > expanders: they open up each group. The big + button at the bottom of
> > the pane creates a partition.
> 
> The '+' button you mean is for creating mount-points. Yes, mount-points,
> too. The button opens a small dialog where to enter the mount-point and the
> desired "capacity". Mount-points not partitions. It even says so everywhere
> related to that dialog. ;)

Yes, it's a bit messy, isn't it: the text is talking about the big +,
but the big + is for creating *partitions*, not mount points. It's
certainly a bit confusing to have text that talks about 'creating mount
points', but the two actual viable operations are to 'set a mount point'
or to 'create a partition and give it a mount point'.

We could probably clean up the terminology there somehow.

> > The mount points displayed within each existing OS group are the mount
> > points *within that OS*. Each of those groups is basically representing
> > that OS to you.
> 
> Okay. That's the place where I transferred old mount-points from the
> older Fedora 18 (Alpha or Rawhide) installation to the New Fedora 18-Beta
> target. I'm not aware of any other place where to do that, nor any more
> convenient way how to reuse existing partitions/volumes/whatever or
> mount-points.

Yes, and this is another confusing bit: the left hand pane shows you the
mount point *within the old OS install*, while the 'Mount Point' text
box in the _right_ hand pane lets you assign the partition a Mount Point
*for the new OS install*.

I can see how this is confusing if you don't know what's going on. If
you know that the left hand pane is trying to tell you your current
layout, while the right hand pane gives you options for the new layout,
it kind of makes sense, but if you don't know that, it's rather fuzzy.

> > We're currently discussing ways of clarifying the whole layout and
> > intent of the left-hand pane.
> 
> Good idea!

Still working...I have a hilariously amateur gimp mockup I'm going to
post a bug for in a minute.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Michael Schwendt]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:47 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Er, I think we have some "+" confusion going on here. The + being
> referred to is the big + button at the bottom of the pane. The small +es
> next to 'Fedora 17 x86-64', 'Ubuntu 12.04' or whatever are just
> expanders: they open up each group. The big + button at the bottom of
> the pane creates a partition.

The '+' button you mean is for creating mount-points. Yes, mount-points,
too. The button opens a small dialog where to enter the mount-point and the
desired "capacity". Mount-points not partitions. It even says so everywhere
related to that dialog. ;)

> The mount points displayed within each existing OS group are the mount
> points *within that OS*. Each of those groups is basically representing
> that OS to you.

Okay. That's the place where I transferred old mount-points from the
older Fedora 18 (Alpha or Rawhide) installation to the New Fedora 18-Beta
target. I'm not aware of any other place where to do that, nor any more
convenient way how to reuse existing partitions/volumes/whatever or
mount-points.

> We're currently discussing ways of clarifying the whole layout and
> intent of the left-hand pane.

Good idea!

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Karel Volný]

Dne Ne 2. prosince 2012 20:15:18, Adam Williamson napsal(a):
> On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 18:54 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:46 PM, drago01  wrote:
> > Pretty good summary why I think this screen is just a mess
> > from an UI pov.
> > 
> > Agree it´s a disaster. And if you´re a coder and you can´t take
> > negative feedback from users, "please, go do something else". *to
> > paraphrase a poster higher in this thread* ;-)
> 
> There is a large difference between negative (constructive) feedback and
> a flamethrower.

well, while there really exists such a difference, I do not think it justifies 
sending people away from Fedora ... since when we have so many users that we 
have to repulse them?

isn't there a connection between number of users and number of developers? - 
how much people we can lose before the distro dies?

and even a "flamethrower" is a valid feedback - the developers can see that 
they did something really wrong so that someone (who isn't on drugs, I 
suppose) had the urge to write such a reaction ... but that would really need 
to do something about the ivory towers ...

K.

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no trash folder in kmail (was: Re: Now that Fedora 18ß is out, questions still here? It's a Kmail one...)

[Karel Volný]

hi,

...
> > anyways, still it'd be worth reporting (if not done already?)
> 
> I guess I should. I wasn't sure if it was now
> supposed to be like that.

heh, even if it was supposed to be that way, it would be a bad decision from 
the user POV, and so a bug should be filed to revert the change (or make it 
optional)

> > btw, if you don't see the folder in kmail,
> > can you see it in akonadiconsole? does it exist on disk?
> 
> This I do not know. I haven't used akonadiconsole.

/me just wonders how someone can be so lucky not to meet akonadiconsole until 
now :-)

> What I just did, however, was to manually create a trash folder, just to see
> if my deleted emails would be in it, but it was empty. The trash folder I
> created did not get the special trash-folder icon, so I suppose the system
> doesn't consider it to be the real trash.

yes, exactly

and in addition, the special properties are scanned only on startup ...

> I will delete that one again before I go into akonadiconsole.

no need to do so

after starting akonadiconsole, go to the browser tab

rightclick the folder you want to use as trash, choose Folder Properties

go to Attributes tab, there you should have two lines (you can safely remove 
any superfluous ones)

SpecialCollectionAttribute=trash
ENTITYDISPLAY=("Trash" "user-trash" "" ())

(note that I use "=" as a separator within email, but in reality these are two 
columns in a table)

the first line specifies that this folder will work as the trash folder

the second one sets display name (i.e. not the on-disk name), the icon, and 
... I don't remember what is the third string and it is not important :-)
the second line also corresponds to the settings on the General tab of that 
dialogue, but these are not synchronised well, so I recommend to play just 
with the Attributes tab

after making the changes, stop kmail then stop akonadiserver

on a next kmail start, the trash folder should work
- note that the actual bug may render the trash folder unusable anyways, the 
steps above have worked for me for messing with system folder when correcting 
localisation issues etc.

K.


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F18 Final Blocker Bug Review #1.2 Minutes

[Tim Flink]

===
#fedora-qa: f18final-blocker-review-1.2
===

Minutes: 
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-qa/2012-12-03/f18final-blocker-review-1.2.2012-12-03-17.25.html
Minutes (text):  
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-qa/2012-12-03/f18final-blocker-review-1.2.2012-12-03-17.25.txt
Log:  
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-qa/2012-12-03/f18final-blocker-review-1.2.2012-12-03-17.25.log.html


Meeting summary
---
* Roll Call  (tflink, 17:25:12)

* Introduction  (tflink, 17:33:07)
  * Our purpose in this meeting is to review proposed blocker and
nice-to-have bugs and decide whether to accept them, and to monitor
the progress of fixing existing accepted blocker and nice-to-have
bugs.  (tflink, 17:33:17)
  * We'll be following the process outlined at:  (tflink, 17:33:23)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Blocker_Bug_Meeting
(tflink, 17:33:23)
  * The bugs up for review today are available at:  (tflink, 17:33:28)
  * LINK: http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/current   (tflink,
17:33:28)
  * The criteria for release blocking bugs can be found at:  (tflink,
17:33:34)
  * LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Alpha_Release_Criteria
(tflink, 17:33:34)
  * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Beta_Release_Criteria
(tflink, 17:33:35)
  * LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Final_Release_Criteria
(tflink, 17:33:35)
  * The current blocker/nth list consists of:  (tflink, 17:33:54)
  * 44 Proposed Blockers  (tflink, 17:33:57)
  * 10 Accepted Blockers  (tflink, 17:33:57)
  * 21 Proposed NTH  (tflink, 17:33:58)
  * 3 Accepted NTH  (tflink, 17:33:58)

* (882147) SystemError: (32, 'umount: /run/install/isodir: target is
  busy. (In some cases useful info about processes that use the device
  is found by lsof(8) or fuser(1))')  (tflink, 17:36:10)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882147   (tflink,
17:36:13)
  * Proposed Blocker, anaconda, NEW  (tflink, 17:36:15)
  * AGREED: 882147 - RejectedBlocker, AcceptedNTH - While this is an
obviously invalid operation that probably should be rejected, it
isn't catastropic and is a bit too much of a corner case to block
release over  (tflink, 17:42:18)

* (545148) livecd boot from iscsi storage  (tflink, 17:42:27)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=545148   (tflink,
17:42:27)
  * Proposed Blocker, dracut, NEW  (tflink, 17:42:27)
  * AGREED: 545148 - RejectedBlocker - This doesn't hit any of the F18
release criteria and thus is rejected as a blocker for F18 final.
(tflink, 17:51:37)

* (874553) rd.debug boot option doesn't log to /run/initramfs/init.log
  (tflink, 17:51:46)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=874553   (tflink,
17:51:46)
  * Proposed Blocker, dracut, ASSIGNED  (tflink, 17:51:46)
  * AGREED: 874553 - RejectedBlocker - While this is a hinderance to
debugging installed systems and images, it doesn't clearly hit any
of the F18 release criteria and is thus rejected as a blocker for
F18 final.  (tflink, 17:56:58)

* (873817) inkscape packaging bugs prevent install  (tflink, 17:57:08)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873817   (tflink,
17:57:08)
  * Proposed Blocker, inkscape, ASSIGNED  (tflink, 17:57:08)
  * AGREED: - In spirit, we are OK with modifying the alpha release
criterion "There must be no file conflicts or unresolved package
dependencies during a media-based (DVD) install" to include more
generic packaging errors. The details and final voting will happen
on test@  (tflink, 18:04:08)
  * AGREED: 873817 - AcceptedBlocker - This violates the modified
release criteria mentioned above and is thus accepted as a blocker
assuming that the proposed changes go through. Will be rejected if
the changed aren't accepted by test@  (tflink, 18:06:33)

* (873207) No entry in grub2 menu for windows8 in dual boot setup
  install TC7  (tflink, 18:06:46)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873207   (tflink,
18:06:48)
  * Proposed Blocker, os-prober, NEW  (tflink, 18:06:51)
  * AGREED: 873207 - RejectedBlocker - The dual-boot with windows
criterion was written for BIOS systems and the UEFI/win8 case is
different. If it turns out that the BIOS case is affected, please
file a new bug and propose it as a blocker  (tflink, 18:22:05)

* (867770) anaconda GUI becomes unresponsive  (tflink, 18:22:18)
  * LINK: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=867770   (tflink,
18:22:18)
  * Proposed Blocker, anaconda, MODIFIED  (tflink, 18:22:19)
  * AGREED: 867770 - AcceptedBlocker - Violates the following F18 final
release criteria (in spirit) if a user re-enters the storage spoke
after reclaiming space: "The installer must be able to create and
install to any workable partition layout using any file system
offered in a

Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 20:03 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 08:06:32 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:09 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > 
> > > The user interface for reusing mount-points from existing installations
> > > found on the storage device(s) isn't pretty. It's also not too obvious
> > > that reused mount-points move from an old installation to the new one only
> > > if they are to be reformatted. E.g. "Swap" and "Root", but other
> > > mount-points stick to the old installation, even if that one doesn't have
> > > a system Root anymore. And that with "Apply Changes" one touches the new
> > > installation not the old/unfolded one.
> > 
> > Those aren't mount points: they're labels. Mount points are shown on the
> > right. This is obviously confusing people, though.
> 
> I don't think so. The left half of the "Manual Partitioning" screen refers
> to mount-points in at least three places, explicitly referring to using
> the '+' below to create "mount-points". And what does it show there when
> unfolding a '+' entry? Correct, it displays mount-points. Paths such as
> "/mnt/storage". Yes, it also displays what might be the corresponding
> partition labels, although it writes the first character of such labels in
> upper-cases, e.g. "Storage" instead of "storage".

Er, I think we have some "+" confusion going on here. The + being
referred to is the big + button at the bottom of the pane. The small +es
next to 'Fedora 17 x86-64', 'Ubuntu 12.04' or whatever are just
expanders: they open up each group. The big + button at the bottom of
the pane creates a partition.

The mount points displayed within each existing OS group are the mount
points *within that OS*. Each of those groups is basically representing
that OS to you.

We're currently discussing ways of clarifying the whole layout and
intent of the left-hand pane.

> Btw, the mount-points it displays at the left side of the screen cannot be
> copied/dragged to the right side, although there is a large ">" arrow that
> apparently is there only to highlight that the left and right side belong
> together. ;) I've had to type in the same mount-points on the right side
> before clicking "Apply Changes".

Not sure about that.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 14:35 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

> I admit, I do have problem dealing with rudeness without being rude in the 
> process. As someone using the web constantly, I'm constantly overwhelmed by 
> pervasive web styling rudeness, in a virtually constant state of frustration.

"A virtually constant state of frustation" is not a good basis for
interaction. There's lots of things that are prevalent in the world
which I don't like either, but if you spend all your time being
frustrated at them, it is going to negatively affect your wellbeing and
your interaction with others.

Mo is using a stock wordpress theme. It's a blog. She doesn't want to
fiddle around with the CSS, especially since your view is clearly a
minority one, even if you're technically correct. I get bugged by tiny
fonts too, but it's kind of the way of the world. It is unreasonable to
draw the conclusion that Mo is incapable of UI design from the evidence
that she uses a stock wordpress theme on her blog. Again: please limit
this discussion to concrete criticism, suggestions and discussion of the
newUI design, if we're going to have it at all. Going off on your pet
topic of font sizes on web pages is not relevant.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012-12-03 11:07 (GMT-0500) Adam Williamson composed:


On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 10:54 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:


> Seriously? It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for that page has any
> idea how to make anything usable, much less possesses skill at it:
> http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-mairduff1200.png



You're being pretty rude here.  You're judging someone's competence
based on a screenshot from who knows when.  That seems uncalled for.


If it mattered to you to know how old it was, you could have found with curl 
or wget that it was 12 minutes older than my post that included its URL. The 
subject page of the putative usability expert demonstrates absence of 
knowledge of a fundamental element of usability - legibility.



What he's actually doing - it's pretty cryptic and requires historical
context - is riding his hobby horse, which is default font sizes on
websites.


"Default font sizes" are not of web sites. Default font sizes are of web 
browsers and site users, which are ignored (by setting a specific absolute 
size) or disrespected (by setting an initial and subsequent sizes at some 
fraction of the browser default) by web site styling.



That's not a screenshot of Mo's desktop or anything, it's Mo's
blog loaded in a view he uses to evaluate font sizes. What he's trying
to say, cryptically, is that he thinks Mo uses small fonts on her
website.


I don't think so, I know so. The image includes the URL of the subject page, 
and the URL of its contextual presentation page, so interested viewers can 
open them on their own to get a first hand view if they care to.


Under the covers of the subject page is the rudeness of the owners design, 
http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/wp-content/themes/journalist/style.css, where the 
viewer's browser's default size is _disregarded_, in effect overridden, via 
this rule:


body {...font-size: 13px...}

What that rule says is that regardless how the viewer's browser is 
configured, or the environment of the user, in particular the pixel density 
of his display, 13px shall be used as a base instead. This rudely thwarts the 
web's inherent adaptability.


The subject page shows its owner doesn't demonstrate knowledge that 
legibility is a fundament of usability. My exercise via that image echoes a 
real usability expert's description of the number one web user complaint: 
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html


I admit, I do have problem dealing with rudeness without being rude in the 
process. As someone using the web constantly, I'm constantly overwhelmed by 
pervasive web styling rudeness, in a virtually constant state of frustration.


At least web browsers provide defense mechanisms so that users can cope (e.g. 
zoom, minimum size, CSS disregard) with mousetype[1]. In Anaconda, Ctrl-+ 
doesn't zoom the text to a legible size, and no alternate means of 
configuring Anaconda text to be legible exists anyplace I've been able to locate.


[1] http://hermeticpress.blogspot.com/2009/04/mouse-type.html
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Fernando Cassia]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz <
mmarzantow...@osdf.com.pl> wrote:

>
> To be honest - it's very confusing. I've managed to install Fedora 18
> over my old Fedora 17 side by side with Windows 7 and I feel so geeky
> now. I spent about 15 minutes only partitioning (not changed anything,
> only reattached what was done in Fedora 17) in new installer. Now I'm
> very happy that I know all that things about different partition types,
> file systems, LVM's, raids, etc. but regular user is dead by now.


The way I see it... any partitioning screen must start with the "real
world" view (physical) disk drives detected, and the partitions detected on
each, so the user sees for instance:
-
Your PC currently has:

Samsung 750MB IDE HD (MODEL. HDD_yxz, IDE PORT 1, MASTER)
which contains
LVM
WINXP (NTFS) xx GB
EXT3 (Linux Fedora xyz)
SWAP

Seagate 1TB SATA HD (MODEL. HST_yxz, SATA PORT 1)
which contains:
EXT4 partition (999 MB)

-

This is useful since on modern systems with lots of SATA ports or mixed
IDE-SATA drives the users can´t always be 100% sure that the drive at the
HDD bay is actually the one which is mounted first by the BIOS... (manual
changing of boot order etc).

Then a series of "step by step" actions like:

-. Deciding if you want to ERASE (remove) any of the existing partitions to
make room
-. Decide if you want to RESIZE any of the current partitions (ie to make
room for install).
-. Deciding WHERE you want to install Linux

In the end, a screen should be presented telling the user to CONFIRM he
wants to install Linux on partition X on drive Y, and that this will result
in loss of data on partitions x,y,z. (if any), before any data has been
written to HD.

Something like the EaseUS Partition Manager, which I gave to my old man and
he was able to repartition his HDD without any previous experience with
such utils

http://download.cnet.com/EaseUS-Partition-Master-Home-Edition/3000-2248_4-10863346.html

Screenshot:
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/09/14/182965fd713d0a0e7914458106a437abbe56_1free-partition-manager_540x401.gif

just my $0.02
FC
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Michael Schwendt]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 08:06:32 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:09 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> 
> > The user interface for reusing mount-points from existing installations
> > found on the storage device(s) isn't pretty. It's also not too obvious
> > that reused mount-points move from an old installation to the new one only
> > if they are to be reformatted. E.g. "Swap" and "Root", but other
> > mount-points stick to the old installation, even if that one doesn't have
> > a system Root anymore. And that with "Apply Changes" one touches the new
> > installation not the old/unfolded one.
> 
> Those aren't mount points: they're labels. Mount points are shown on the
> right. This is obviously confusing people, though.

I don't think so. The left half of the "Manual Partitioning" screen refers
to mount-points in at least three places, explicitly referring to using
the '+' below to create "mount-points". And what does it show there when
unfolding a '+' entry? Correct, it displays mount-points. Paths such as
"/mnt/storage". Yes, it also displays what might be the corresponding
partition labels, although it writes the first character of such labels in
upper-cases, e.g. "Storage" instead of "storage".

Btw, the mount-points it displays at the left side of the screen cannot be
copied/dragged to the right side, although there is a large ">" arrow that
apparently is there only to highlight that the left and right side belong
together. ;) I've had to type in the same mount-points on the right side
before clicking "Apply Changes".

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Re: Release criterion proposal: modify conflicts/dependencies criterion to cover all critical packaging errors

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 10:14:15 -0800,
  Adam Williamson  wrote:


There must be no errors in any package on the DVD or release-blocking
live desktop media which cause the package to fail to install. Such
critical errors include, but are not limited to, undeclared conflicts
(explicit Conflicts: tags are acceptable) and unresolved dependencies

Comments, thoughts, rotten fruit? Thanks!


I like the suggestion being more general, rather than trying to add more 
special cases.

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Re: selinux-policy-3.11.1-57 and 3.11.1-58 breaking access to 'storage' drives

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 12:58:23 -0500,
  Daniel J Walsh  wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/01/2012 12:58 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

Just a heads-up - several reporters (including me) have noticed that they
can't access 'storage' drives in their systems (disks mounted at non-system
locations - mine's at /media/Sea500 - to contain miscellaneous data) after
updating to selinux-policy-3.11.1-57. -58 does not fix this problem. If you
find you suddenly can't access a drive on your system, this bug may be the
culprit:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882416

just setting SELinux to 'permissive' will work around the issue, or you can
downgrade to an earlier version (-50 was the last submitted as an update,
we don't know where between -50 and -57 it broke).


Adam have you tried -59?  Does this fix the problem?


In bohdi, people have reported that -59 fixed the problem going forward. But 
people already affected need to relabel.

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Andre Robatino]

Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:

> Or make mediacheck the default on lives :)

Even I'm not in favor of that. Although I wish there was some way you could be
offered a mediacheck after clicking on "Install to Hard Drive", rather than
having to choose it at the beginning.

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:14 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 12:08 PM, Andre Robatino wrote:
> > The current defaults are mediacheck for install images and no mediacheck for
> > lives, so to keep that, the choice is to either make the order of menu 
> > entries
> > different on installs vs. lives, or keep them the same, and have the 
> > default not
> > be the first entry on one of them.
> 
> Media checks have always been optional. Why are they the default now?

'default' and 'optional' are not opposed.

Media check was the 'default' before, if anything: in the past media
check was part of loader, so it wasn't on the boot menu. One of the
first screens was a prompt to check the media, and it encouraged you to
do so, and I believe the 'OK' button was the default: you had to tab
across to 'Skip' in order to skip the media check. So the current
behaviour is the closest thing to the old one.

> Bug filed: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883086


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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 18:08 +, Andre Robatino wrote:
> Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:
> 
> > > I didn't realize, and it isn't apparent to my old eyes, that the
> > > second line on the initial screen on booting the DVD is the default
> > > when you hit return.  I'm used to the "default" being first in the
> > > list.
> > 
> > Yeah, I seem to recall we've been round that merry-go-round before, and
> > somehow it's happening again. The first entry should indeed be the
> > default, so we should re-jig the order, I think.
> 
> The current defaults are mediacheck for install images and no mediacheck for
> lives, so to keep that, the choice is to either make the order of menu entries
> different on installs vs. lives, or keep them the same, and have the default 
> not
> be the first entry on one of them.

Or make mediacheck the default on lives :)
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Mateusz Marzantowicz]

On 03.12.2012 17:06, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:09 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
>
>> The user interface for reusing mount-points from existing installations
>> found on the storage device(s) isn't pretty. It's also not too obvious
>> that reused mount-points move from an old installation to the new one only
>> if they are to be reformatted. E.g. "Swap" and "Root", but other
>> mount-points stick to the old installation, even if that one doesn't have
>> a system Root anymore. And that with "Apply Changes" one touches the new
>> installation not the old/unfolded one.
> Those aren't mount points: they're labels. Mount points are shown on the
> right. This is obviously confusing people, though.
>

To be honest - it's very confusing. I've managed to install Fedora 18
over my old Fedora 17 side by side with Windows 7 and I feel so geeky
now. I spent about 15 minutes only partitioning (not changed anything,
only reattached what was done in Fedora 17) in new installer. Now I'm
very happy that I know all that things about different partition types,
file systems, LVM's, raids, etc. but regular user is dead by now.

Maybe it's possible to measure time spend by user in each spoke? This
kind of feedback might help to improve something in the next Fedora release.


Mateusz Marzantowicz
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Andre Robatino]

Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:
 
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 11:56 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> > On 12/03/2012 10:41 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > Probably file a new one.
> > 
> > What component should it be filed under?
> 
> christ, I always forget what builds the boot menu for the DVDs. I'm
> thinking probably lorax or pungi?
 lorax (for example, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=809663 ).



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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 12:08 PM, Andre Robatino wrote:

The current defaults are mediacheck for install images and no mediacheck for
lives, so to keep that, the choice is to either make the order of menu entries
different on installs vs. lives, or keep them the same, and have the default not
be the first entry on one of them.


Media checks have always been optional. Why are they the default now?

Bug filed: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883086
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Release criterion proposal: modify conflicts/dependencies criterion to cover all critical packaging errors

[Adam Williamson]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873817 came up for
discussion in the blocker meeting today, and highlighted an inadequacy
in the criteria. An Alpha criterion currently reads:

"There must be no file conflicts (cases where the files in some packages
conflict but the packages have explicit Conflicts: tags are acceptable)
or unresolved package dependencies during a media-based (DVD) install"

However, the intent here is that all packages on the media should be
installable, excepting combinations of packages with explicit Conflicts:
between them. This bug shows a case where the error isn't a non-explict
conflict or a bad dep, but a scriptlet error. Clearly, the criterion is
too narrow.

We agreed in principle at the meeting to amend the criterion to cover
any critical packaging error. So I propose this wording:

There must be no errors in any package on the DVD or release-blocking
live desktop media which cause the package to fail to install. Such
critical errors include, but are not limited to, undeclared conflicts
(explicit Conflicts: tags are acceptable) and unresolved dependencies

Comments, thoughts, rotten fruit? Thanks!
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Andre Robatino]

Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:

> > I didn't realize, and it isn't apparent to my old eyes, that the
> > second line on the initial screen on booting the DVD is the default
> > when you hit return.  I'm used to the "default" being first in the
> > list.
> 
> Yeah, I seem to recall we've been round that merry-go-round before, and
> somehow it's happening again. The first entry should indeed be the
> default, so we should re-jig the order, I think.

The current defaults are mediacheck for install images and no mediacheck for
lives, so to keep that, the choice is to either make the order of menu entries
different on installs vs. lives, or keep them the same, and have the default not
be the first entry on one of them.




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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 11:56 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 10:41 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Probably file a new one.
> 
> What component should it be filed under?

christ, I always forget what builds the boot menu for the DVDs. I'm
thinking probably lorax or pungi?
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 11:55 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 10:44 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > At no point in all that did you actually assign a mount point to it. I
> > think you may be hitting the label/mount point confusion here. 'Boot' is
> > not a mount point: it is the label of that partition. If I'm reading
> > this correctly, at this point in the process, you have nothing set to be
> > mounted at /boot. All you've done is say you'd like to format the
> > partition called Boot in your existing F18 install, but you haven't said
> > you'd actually like to use it in the new install in any way.
> 
> "Boot" is not a label on the file system, it is a label of the UI 
> widget. I do not use labels on my file systems and there is not one on 
> my existing F18 install.

Ah - I guess anaconda is extracting it from the fstab data, then. This
is clearly confusing people, though I don't off-hand see how to improve
it. This is anaconda identifying the existing partitions for you - it's
telling you 'this is the partition that is /boot on your existing
installation'.

> >> >At this point a "Boot 500MB" partition is added, but the old "ext4
> >> >500MB" partition line is still displayed.
> > Well yes, you didn't say that partition should be removed. Why would it
> > disappear?
> 
> Instead of adding an additional UI widget item for a partition, I expect 
> the existing partition UI widget to be updated. In fact, when you 
> navigate back to the old partition setup, and then back to the new 
> partition setup, the duplicate UI widget is gone.
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883076
> 
> >
> >> >1) The logic behind the steps required to entire custom partitioning is
> >> >wordy. It should be a simple step of asking the user "Do it for me!" or
> >> >"Let me do it!" and not a couple paragraphs of text no one will read.
> > So, wait, we have a couple of people in the thread suggesting that what
> > the installer needs is more explanatory text, and now you're suggesting
> > that explanatory text is wordy paragraphs no one will read?:)
> 
> I deal with end users of all backgrounds every day. People don't read 
> *anything* you give them. People that say otherwise have been 
> programming in basements for too long.
> 
> > I've actually suggested that to dlehman myself, but apparently Mo wasn't
> > keen on it, but I haven't discussed it directly with her. A compromise I
> > suggested was to name the expander more clearly. 'Customize' gives you
> > no idea what's behind it.
> 
> That is unfortunate. What's the purpose of having 50% of the screen be 
> blank?

I don't want to put words in other people's mouths - especially not at
third hand (Mo to David to me) - so I'm not going to answer that. I'll
let the devs speak directly for themselves if they want to.
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Re: selinux-policy-3.11.1-57 and 3.11.1-58 breaking access to 'storage' drives

[Daniel J Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/01/2012 12:58 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Just a heads-up - several reporters (including me) have noticed that they
> can't access 'storage' drives in their systems (disks mounted at non-system
> locations - mine's at /media/Sea500 - to contain miscellaneous data) after
> updating to selinux-policy-3.11.1-57. -58 does not fix this problem. If you
> find you suddenly can't access a drive on your system, this bug may be the
> culprit:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882416
> 
> just setting SELinux to 'permissive' will work around the issue, or you can
> downgrade to an earlier version (-50 was the last submitted as an update,
> we don't know where between -50 and -57 it broke).
> 
Adam have you tried -59?  Does this fix the problem?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 10:41 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

Probably file a new one.


What component should it be filed under?
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 10:35 AM, David Lehman wrote:

Apparently you are the first one to attempt this particular workflow.
Please open a bug report.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883076
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 10:44 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

At no point in all that did you actually assign a mount point to it. I
think you may be hitting the label/mount point confusion here. 'Boot' is
not a mount point: it is the label of that partition. If I'm reading
this correctly, at this point in the process, you have nothing set to be
mounted at /boot. All you've done is say you'd like to format the
partition called Boot in your existing F18 install, but you haven't said
you'd actually like to use it in the new install in any way.


"Boot" is not a label on the file system, it is a label of the UI 
widget. I do not use labels on my file systems and there is not one on 
my existing F18 install.



>At this point a "Boot 500MB" partition is added, but the old "ext4
>500MB" partition line is still displayed.

Well yes, you didn't say that partition should be removed. Why would it
disappear?


Instead of adding an additional UI widget item for a partition, I expect 
the existing partition UI widget to be updated. In fact, when you 
navigate back to the old partition setup, and then back to the new 
partition setup, the duplicate UI widget is gone.


https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=883076




>1) The logic behind the steps required to entire custom partitioning is
>wordy. It should be a simple step of asking the user "Do it for me!" or
>"Let me do it!" and not a couple paragraphs of text no one will read.

So, wait, we have a couple of people in the thread suggesting that what
the installer needs is more explanatory text, and now you're suggesting
that explanatory text is wordy paragraphs no one will read?:)


I deal with end users of all backgrounds every day. People don't read 
*anything* you give them. People that say otherwise have been 
programming in basements for too long.



I've actually suggested that to dlehman myself, but apparently Mo wasn't
keen on it, but I haven't discussed it directly with her. A compromise I
suggested was to name the expander more clearly. 'Customize' gives you
no idea what's behind it.


That is unfortunate. What's the purpose of having 50% of the screen be 
blank?

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Re: fedup FedoraN to Rawhide?

[David]

On 12/3/2012 11:59 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 10:49:35 -0600
> Dennis Gilmore  wrote:
> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:53:07 +
>> Frank Murphy  wrote:
>>
>>> Just for future plans.
>>>
>>> Will fedup be an avenue to go from latest Fedora to Rawhide?
>>
>> Considering we never make rawhide installable i doubt it. though
>> thats always open to change down the road
> 
> As fedup doesn't need an installer per-say, 
> it's yum-upgrade on steroids.
> 


What I have done in the past was to install the latest release, go
through a full update, and then replace fedora-release, from the rawhide
repo, and add fedora-release-rawhide. I then 'yum clean all' and run
'yum distribution-synchronization  --fastestmirror --skip-broken'. It
takes a while but has worked every time. So far.  :-)

First thing that would / could be a game stopper would be for those that
have third party packages installed. I would think that those cause many
of the 'my update failed' problems.

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Re: fedup FedoraN to Rawhide?

[Frank Murphy]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 10:49:35 -0600
Dennis Gilmore  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:53:07 +
> Frank Murphy  wrote:
> 
> > Just for future plans.
> > 
> > Will fedup be an avenue to go from latest Fedora to Rawhide?
> 
> Considering we never make rawhide installable i doubt it. though
> thats always open to change down the road

As fedup doesn't need an installer per-say, 
it's yum-upgrade on steroids.
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Re: Liberation 2.0 Vs Liberation 1.0 (Need comments)

[Kamil Paral]

> Hi All,

> As you know Liberation 2.0 is one of the feature of Fedora 18. Recent
> analysis and comparison with Liberation 1 it is more clear that
> final output of Liberation 2.0 is not as sharp as it was with
> Liberation 1.0. Though both are from same vendor (Ascender
> Corporation) hinting bytecodes are different.

> Liberation2 already available in Fedora18 Beta, if one wants to
> install both fonts simultaneously Download [1] has liberation ttf
> with different family name, so one can have both version same time
> on Fedora. (cp to /usr/share/fonts/liberation and then fc-cache)

> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=856239 , though bugzilla
> has more than 100 comments but if someone see to the attached
> screenshot will be sufficient for review.

I have replied in https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=856239#c125

I was very unpleasantly surprised by Fedora 18, because some sites are blurry 
as hell. I think people should not respond to this thread unless they see it on 
their own eyes first (and try to read some long article with that font). It 
makes my eyes bleed. Fedora 17 rendering was definitely better and crisper.

If you do keep the current blurry fonts as default (god forbid), please at 
least provide an easy way to switch to Fedora 17 rendering style. Thanks.
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Re: fedup FedoraN to Rawhide?

[Dennis Gilmore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:53:07 +
Frank Murphy  wrote:

> Just for future plans.
> 
> Will fedup be an avenue to go from latest Fedora to Rawhide?

Considering we never make rawhide installable i doubt it. though thats
always open to change down the road

Dennis
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 08:44 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 01:19 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > That's an equally confusing bug report.:)  Could you please state
> > precisely what steps you took and what results you saw? This is more
> > useful and reliable than just saying what you think happened, because
> > part of the agreed-upon problem here is that not everyone is clear on
> > exactly what is actually happening in custom part.
> 
> -I checked "I don't need help; let me customize disk partitioning."
> -Clicked on "Reclaim space" button.
> -Clicked on plus button on existing F18 installation.
> -Clicked on the "Boot" 500MB partition.
> -Clicked on "Customize..."
> -Clicked on "Reformat"
> -Clicked on "Apply Changes"
> 
> At this point my "Boot" partition disappears.

At no point in all that did you actually assign a mount point to it. I
think you may be hitting the label/mount point confusion here. 'Boot' is
not a mount point: it is the label of that partition. If I'm reading
this correctly, at this point in the process, you have nothing set to be
mounted at /boot. All you've done is say you'd like to format the
partition called Boot in your existing F18 install, but you haven't said
you'd actually like to use it in the new install in any way.

> -Click on plus button on new F18 installation.
> -Click on "ext4 500MB" partition.
> -Type in "/boot" into Mount Point.
> -Click "Apply Changes"
> 
> At this point a "Boot 500MB" partition is added, but the old "ext4 
> 500MB" partition line is still displayed.

Well yes, you didn't say that partition should be removed. Why would it
disappear?

> 1) The logic behind the steps required to entire custom partitioning is 
> wordy. It should be a simple step of asking the user "Do it for me!" or 
> "Let me do it!" and not a couple paragraphs of text no one will read.

So, wait, we have a couple of people in the thread suggesting that what
the installer needs is more explanatory text, and now you're suggesting
that explanatory text is wordy paragraphs no one will read? :)

> 2) The "Customize..." expander is frivolous. There is an extensive 
> amount of empty UI space. There is no need to have an expander for the 
> "Customize..." area. It should always be displayed as we are in Custom 
> Partitioning to begin with.

I've actually suggested that to dlehman myself, but apparently Mo wasn't
keen on it, but I haven't discussed it directly with her. A compromise I
suggested was to name the expander more clearly. 'Customize' gives you
no idea what's behind it.
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 08:50 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 02:40 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Yeah, I seem to recall we've been round that merry-go-round before, and
> > somehow it's happening again. The first entry should indeed be the
> > default, so we should re-jig the order, I think.
> 
> Should a new bug be created for this or does one already exist?

Probably file a new one.
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[David Lehman]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> expecting that) and I found them under the F18 beta partitioning without 
> a mount point. When I added a mount point the partition was duplicated 
> so for example I had a 500MB ext4 partition and gave it a /boot mount 
> point, which created a 500MB "Boot" ext4 partition leaving the original 
> partition still on my screen.

Apparently you are the first one to attempt this particular workflow.
Please open a bug report.

David

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 11:19 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Adam Williamson  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 10:54 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
> >
> >> > Seriously? It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for that page has 
> >> > any
> >> > idea how to make anything usable, much less possesses skill at it:
> >> > http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-mairduff1200.png
> >>
> >> Felix,
> >>
> >> You're being pretty rude here.  You're judging someone's competence
> >> based on a screenshot from who knows when.  That seems uncalled for.
> >
> > What he's actually doing - it's pretty cryptic and requires historical
> > context - is riding his hobby horse, which is default font sizes on
> > websites. That's not a screenshot of Mo's desktop or anything, it's Mo's
> > blog loaded in a view he uses to evaluate font sizes. What he's trying
> > to say, cryptically, is that he thinks Mo uses small fonts on her
> > website.
> 
> Oh, right.  OK, then it's totally cool to call someone incompetent and
> without skill on this list just because you do some kind of cryptic
> subject matter hobbiest thing on this list?  Sorry, I wasn't aware that
> was allowed.

I didn't say it was totally cool, I just explained it. I think it's a
crappy thing to do, in fact, but I was working through drafts of ways to
say that in order to find one that was fit for publication, and hadn't
quite worked my way down far enough yet. The first one set my monitor on
fire.

> You'll never hear from me on this list again.  I don't think I can live
> up to those kinds of awesome standards.

A little time, maybe?
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Josh Boyer]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Adam Williamson  wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 10:54 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
>
>> > Seriously? It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for that page has 
>> > any
>> > idea how to make anything usable, much less possesses skill at it:
>> > http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-mairduff1200.png
>>
>> Felix,
>>
>> You're being pretty rude here.  You're judging someone's competence
>> based on a screenshot from who knows when.  That seems uncalled for.
>
> What he's actually doing - it's pretty cryptic and requires historical
> context - is riding his hobby horse, which is default font sizes on
> websites. That's not a screenshot of Mo's desktop or anything, it's Mo's
> blog loaded in a view he uses to evaluate font sizes. What he's trying
> to say, cryptically, is that he thinks Mo uses small fonts on her
> website.

Oh, right.  OK, then it's totally cool to call someone incompetent and
without skill on this list just because you do some kind of cryptic
subject matter hobbiest thing on this list?  Sorry, I wasn't aware that
was allowed.

You'll never hear from me on this list again.  I don't think I can live
up to those kinds of awesome standards.

josh
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 10:54 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:

> > Seriously? It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for that page has any
> > idea how to make anything usable, much less possesses skill at it:
> > http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-mairduff1200.png
> 
> Felix,
> 
> You're being pretty rude here.  You're judging someone's competence
> based on a screenshot from who knows when.  That seems uncalled for.

What he's actually doing - it's pretty cryptic and requires historical
context - is riding his hobby horse, which is default font sizes on
websites. That's not a screenshot of Mo's desktop or anything, it's Mo's
blog loaded in a view he uses to evaluate font sizes. What he's trying
to say, cryptically, is that he thinks Mo uses small fonts on her
website.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:09 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:

> The user interface for reusing mount-points from existing installations
> found on the storage device(s) isn't pretty. It's also not too obvious
> that reused mount-points move from an old installation to the new one only
> if they are to be reformatted. E.g. "Swap" and "Root", but other
> mount-points stick to the old installation, even if that one doesn't have
> a system Root anymore. And that with "Apply Changes" one touches the new
> installation not the old/unfolded one.

Those aren't mount points: they're labels. Mount points are shown on the
right. This is obviously confusing people, though.

> At least the installer backend worked.
> 
> It could be interesting to read what documentation would say about these
> installer screens. Imagine, the Red Hat Enterprise Linux manual had to
> explain these screens.

Jack Reed's already working on updating the Fedora install guide for
newUI; you can read what he's written in git.

http://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/docs/install-guide.git/
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 07:28 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:14:00 -0800
> Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > Someone skilled with UI/UX did the design from the outset. The process
> > is documented in exhausting detail on her blog:
> > 
> > http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/
> 
> Some people (i.e. 99.999% of the population) have better things
> to do than desperately search through every random corner
> of the internet in case there happens to be someone planning
> something ill-advised so you can provide feedback (which will
> be ignored, because feedback like: "Don't change anything in
> the interface that tens of thousands of people can already
> understand and use" is always dismissed as reactionary
> obstructionism by the starry-eyed planners of the perfect
> future).

Seriously: quit it. Keep it up and I will start bringing up meeting
topics about whether we should be banning people from the list.

Mo's blog is syndicated on Planet Fedora and has been discussed here and
on the anaconda mailing list before. It is not a 'random corner of the
internet'.
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Josh Boyer]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:33 AM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> On 2012-12-02 20:14 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed:
>
>>> ...it also indicates an ad hoc approach to solving UI/UX
>>>
>>> problems, rather than having someone particularly skilled with UI/UX
>>> vetting the entire design from the outset.
>
>
>> Someone skilled with UI/UX did the design from the outset. The process
>> is documented in exhausting detail on her blog:
>
>
>> http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/
>
>
>> please *at least* read all the relevant posts there before you
>> speculate.
>
>
> Seriously? It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for that page has any
> idea how to make anything usable, much less possesses skill at it:
> http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-mairduff1200.png

Felix,

You're being pretty rude here.  You're judging someone's competence
based on a screenshot from who knows when.  That seems uncalled for.

I mean, for example, here's a picture of Einstein's desk on the day he
died:

http://life.time.com/history/the-day-einstein-died-a-life-photographers-story/#1

look at it.  What a mess.  What's that gobbly-gunk scribbled on his
blackboard?  That guy must be a moron, right?

Now, clearly that isn't the case and I'm not comparing anyone to
Eienstein but hopefully you see my point.  It would be like me reading
this single email and replying with:

"Seriously?  It's hard to imagine whoever is responsible for sending
that email has any idea how to be anything other than a jerkbag, much
less possess the skill to do anything productive for Fedora, ever."

That would be pretty judgemental of me and I guess you wouldn't
appreciate it much.  So maybe go back to critizing the code instead of
doing personal attacks.  While you're at it, maybe propose new design
ideas with screen mockups and stuff, and gather some data on usability
of your designs.  And then maybe send them to anaconda-devel list.

Thanks!

josh
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Re: Liberation 2.0 Vs Liberation 1.0 (Need comments)

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le Lun 3 décembre 2012 15:26, pravin@gmail.com a écrit :
> Hi All,
>
>   As you know Liberation 2.0 is one of the feature of Fedora 18. Recent
> analysis and comparison with Liberation 1 it is more clear that final
> output of Liberation 2.0 is not as sharp as it was with Liberation 1.0.
> Though both are from same vendor (Ascender Corporation) hinting bytecodes
> are different.

As you wrote results are subjective and I can't stand myself windows-like
font butchering (subpixel hinting, gross glyph distortion). IMHO some
people are fighting a losing battle in trying to perpetuate bitmap font
rendering.

Every new font is going the Liberation 2 way so I'm not sure at all
investing in old-style hinting is useful at all. I've seen the very same
horror cries when Luxy was dumped, and history showed they were a very
small minority.

It may be best to keep a Liberation1 package somewhere and have old-style
hinting fans maintain it. But I doubt they'll be able to keep up with
Unicode changes. And anyway with hi-dpi screens hitting Apple customers
nows, and Android tablet producers following suit, Liberation1-style
hinting is going to be irrelevant in a few years. Resources would be
better expanded in getting our GUI stack to work with hi-dpi before such
hardware becomes common IMHO.

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Rebase oVirt version for fedora 18 to 3.2 possible?

[Gianluca Cecchi]

Hello,
based on
http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/users/2012-November/004887.html
and relative schedules for oVirt and Fedora:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule?rd=Releases/18

http://www.ovirt.org/OVirt_3.2_release-management

will the feature page
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/oVirtEngine_3.1
rebased on 3.2?
I'm happy to eventaully test 3.2 for Fedora18, so let the list know
how and where to pick packages when available if not in standard
updates-testing for f18..

Thanks,
Gianluca
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 08:47 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:


There's a solution to this. Hard code the date in the installer when the
ISO is created. We know today's date and it could be set in the
installer before the UI starts. Then it doesn't matter what the person's
system is set to. It doesn't need to be accurate to the exact second,
but the year would be accurate and that should be more than enough to
pass package script checks.


... and for extra brownie points:

If we detect a network connection: Use chrony to update the date! (in 
the case of user's using "updates" repos during install)

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 02:40 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

Yeah, I seem to recall we've been round that merry-go-round before, and
somehow it's happening again. The first entry should indeed be the
default, so we should re-jig the order, I think.


Should a new bug be created for this or does one already exist?
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 08:44 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:

1) The logic behind the steps required to entire custom partitioning is
wordy. It should be a simple step of asking the user "Do it for me!" or
"Let me do it!" and not a couple paragraphs of text no one will read.


s/entire/enter
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 01:19 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

This kind of change is very disruptive and won't happen post-Beta. Also,
we can't do that anyway: the reason there's a date/time spoke during
anaconda at all is because on some systems the clock is completely wrong
- like 30 years wrong - and that can affect some package scripts. So the
spoke exists to make sure you have an opportunity to set the correct
date/time prior to package install beginning. Moving the spoke to during
package installation would defeat its purpose. If we didn't need to be
sure date/time could be set prior to package install on some systems,
there would be no such spoke in anaconda at all, and it'd be done at
firstboot instead.


There's a solution to this. Hard code the date in the installer when the 
ISO is created. We know today's date and it could be set in the 
installer before the UI starts. Then it doesn't matter what the person's 
system is set to. It doesn't need to be accurate to the exact second, 
but the year would be accurate and that should be more than enough to 
pass package script checks.

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Michael Cronenworth]

On 12/03/2012 01:19 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:

That's an equally confusing bug report.:)  Could you please state
precisely what steps you took and what results you saw? This is more
useful and reliable than just saying what you think happened, because
part of the agreed-upon problem here is that not everyone is clear on
exactly what is actually happening in custom part.


-I checked "I don't need help; let me customize disk partitioning."
-Clicked on "Reclaim space" button.
-Clicked on plus button on existing F18 installation.
-Clicked on the "Boot" 500MB partition.
-Clicked on "Customize..."
-Clicked on "Reformat"
-Clicked on "Apply Changes"

At this point my "Boot" partition disappears.

-Click on plus button on new F18 installation.
-Click on "ext4 500MB" partition.
-Type in "/boot" into Mount Point.
-Click "Apply Changes"

At this point a "Boot 500MB" partition is added, but the old "ext4 
500MB" partition line is still displayed.


1) The logic behind the steps required to entire custom partitioning is 
wordy. It should be a simple step of asking the user "Do it for me!" or 
"Let me do it!" and not a couple paragraphs of text no one will read.


2) The "Customize..." expander is frivolous. There is an extensive 
amount of empty UI space. There is no need to have an expander for the 
"Customize..." area. It should always be displayed as we are in Custom 
Partitioning to begin with.


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Liberation 2.0 Vs Liberation 1.0 (Need comments)

[pravin....@gmail.com]

Hi All,

  As you know Liberation 2.0 is one of the feature of Fedora 18. Recent
analysis and comparison with Liberation 1 it is more clear that final
output of Liberation 2.0 is not as sharp as it was with Liberation 1.0.
Though both are from same vendor (Ascender Corporation) hinting bytecodes
are different.

  Liberation2 already available in Fedora18 Beta, if one wants to install
both fonts simultaneously Download [1]  has liberation ttf with different
family name, so one can have both version same time on Fedora. (cp to
/usr/share/fonts/liberation and then fc-cache)

 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=856239 ,  though bugzilla has
more than 100 comments but if someone see to the attached screenshot will
be sufficient for review.

 I did comparison of Fedora output with Windows7 as well. But on Windows
results are totally different than Fedora.

 On Fedora 18 :
http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/arial-sans2-sans1-arimo-testing2-fedora18.png
(Here Sans2 = Liberation2 , San1 = Liberation1 and Arimo = Google Croscore)

 On Windows7 :
http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/arial-sans2-sans1-arimo-testing2-windows7.png

 On Fedora 18 :
http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/arial-sans2-sans1-arimo-testing2-fedora18-subpixel-rendering.png(with
freetype-freeworld Xft.antialias: 1 Xft.dpi: 96 Xft.hinting: 1
*Xft.hintstyle: hintslight* Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault *Xft.rgba: rgb*)

 In last 4 comments Mike Fabian has given even more better screenshot
showing hinting bytecode which actually affects final output.

http://pravin-s.blogspot.in/2012/12/liberation-20-and-liberatoin-10.htmlhas
some more images

 Problem is subjectivity of hinting output, each users has different
opinion. So just thinking whether we should defer this feature and once
Liberation2 output matches with Liberation1 then only we can go with this
feature.

Thanks & Regards,
Pravin Satpute

1. http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation-fonts-ttf-1-07-2.tar.gz

Note: Cross posting to fonts@ , i18n@ and tests@ list for more feedback
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Re: Canon printer/scanner driver installation problem Fedora 18 Beta

[Michael Schwendt]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:54:41 -0500 (EST), julech...@aol.com wrote:

> Hi,
> Fedora 18 Beta installation on a computer with limited resources (Tornado 
> Geforce2 MX/MX 400 grafics). Therefore installation with LXDE desktop, i386.
> I try now to install a Canon Pixma MP 540 printer-scanner:
> Software
> Dateiversion: 3.0
> Dateigröße: 12.1 MB
> Dateiname: MP540_RPM_drivers.tar
> 
> 
> Result:
> [root@localhost Downloads]# sudo rpm -U scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386.rpm
> Fehler: Fehlgeschlagende Abhängigkeiten:
> libpng12.so.0 wird benötigt von scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386
> [root@localhost Downloads]# sudo rpm -U cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386.rpm
> Fehler: Fehlgeschlagende Abhängigkeiten:
> libpng12.so.0 wird benötigt von cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386
> libtiff.so.3 wird benötigt von cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386
> [root@localhost Downloads]# 
> 
> 
> 
> These old libraries (libpng12.so.0 and  libtiff.so.3)  -as I can see- have 
> been in previous Fedora packages. I think the Canon driver doesn't want the 
> corresponding libraries of Fedora 18 Beta.
> Is there any idea for a work around? The commercial printer driver 
> "turboprint" works for this Canon printer in Fedora 18 Beta. But I would like 
> to install this Canon driver for printer and scanner.
>

# repoquery --whatprovides 'libpng12.so.0()(64bit)'
libpng12-0:1.2.50-2.fc18.x86_64
libpng12-0:1.2.50-2.fc18.x86_64

# repoquery --whatprovides 'libtiff.so.3()(64bit)'
#

For the old libtiff, it may be easy enough to fetch the src.rpm from an
older Fedora release, rebuild the source and install it either to /usr/local
(which will work due to the different library name) or create a compatibility
package that can be installed alongside "libtiff".

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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Michael Schwendt]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:31:51 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:

> In many many years of installing all kinds of linux distros,
> I have never encountered a more baffling and cryptic screen
> than the one I ran into when I made the attempt to install
> Fedora 18 Beta from the DVD image:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882542
> 
> This has got to be the result of a group of maniacs
> giving each other feedback about how great this design is
> when they all know what everything means because they
> were there when it grew.
> 
> Coming along after the fact and seeing it for the first
> time, I can't tell what on earth it is trying to convey,
> and I'm certainly not going to randomly try things when
> I'm potentially destroying the disks on my primary system
> if I interpret some part of this cryptic nonsense
> incorrectly.

Hmmm, you would have had to leave at the very first warning dialog where
you explicitly need to confirm that you're willing to be brave. ;-p

The user interface for reusing mount-points from existing installations
found on the storage device(s) isn't pretty. It's also not too obvious
that reused mount-points move from an old installation to the new one only
if they are to be reformatted. E.g. "Swap" and "Root", but other
mount-points stick to the old installation, even if that one doesn't have
a system Root anymore. And that with "Apply Changes" one touches the new
installation not the old/unfolded one.

At least the installer backend worked.

It could be interesting to read what documentation would say about these
installer screens. Imagine, the Red Hat Enterprise Linux manual had to
explain these screens.

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Re: How to set up layout switch shortcut

[Pasha R]

Thanks!


On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Nikos Roussos
wrote:

> It's listed as a bug [1]. There is a workaround using the tweak tool
> [2].
>
> [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873849
> [2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873849#c4
>
>
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:10 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> > Thanks, I tried that, but it does not recognize Alt+Shift or Ctrl
> > +Shift as a shortcut. Also, if I set up a shortcut like Alt+Shift+A,
> > it only works once - it switches me from english to russian, but not
> > back.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Petr Schindler 
> > wrote:
> > Hi,
> > There is a link to 'Shortcut Settings' in 'Regional &
> > Language'->'Input
> > Sources'. You can set up the shortcut for switching to next
> > source (and
> > previous).
> > On Po, 2012-12-03 at 13:46 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> > > I'm trying to set up keyboard layout switching in F18 beta.
> > I addeds
> > > needed layouts in "Regional & Language", but I can't see
> > where is the
> > > option for layout switching. Currently, the only way to
> > switch layout
> > > which works is clicking on layout indicator on panel, but it
> > is not an
> > > acceptable solution.
> > >
> > > Am I missing something trivial here?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> >
>
>
>
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F-18 Branched report: 20121203 changes

[Fedora Branched Report]

Compose started at Mon Dec  3 09:15:26 UTC 2012

Broken deps for x86_64
--
[ugene]
ugene-1.11.3-1.fc18.x86_64 requires qtwebkit >= 0:4.7.0



Broken deps for i386
--
[ugene]
ugene-1.11.3-1.fc18.i686 requires qtwebkit >= 0:4.7.0



New package: ghc-hs-bibutils-4.15-2.fc18
 Haskell bindings to bibutils

New package: maradns-2.0.06-3.fc18
 Authoritative and recursive DNS server made with security in mind

New package: maven-plugins-pom-23-2.fc18
 Maven Plugins POM

New package: php-pear-XML-SVG-1.1.0-2.fc18
 API for building SVG documents

New package: php-pecl-uuid-1.0.3-3.fc18
 Universally Unique Identifier extension for PHP

New package: php-xcache-3.0.0-1.fc18.1
 Fast, stable PHP opcode cacher

New package: sigil-0.6.0-3.fc18
 WYSIWYG ebook editor


Updated Packages:

dcap-2.47.7-1.fc18
--
* Tue Nov 27 2012 Mattias Ellert  - 2.47.7-1
- New upstream release


gcc-python-plugin-0.9-7.fc18

* Tue Nov 27 2012 Tom Callaway  - 0.9-7
- another round of rebuilds for broken deps


girara-0.1.4-2.fc18
---
* Tue Nov 27 2012 François Cami  - 0.1.4-2
- remove static library [863049]


google-guice-3.1.2-6.fc18
-
* Fri Nov 09 2012 Mikolaj Izdebski  - 3.1.2-6
- Don't try to build extension modules unless they are needed

* Fri Nov 09 2012 Mikolaj Izdebski  - 3.1.2-5
- Conditionalize %install section too

* Fri Nov 09 2012 Mikolaj Izdebski  - 3.1.2-4
- Conditionally disable extensions

* Thu Nov 01 2012 Mikolaj Izdebski  - 3.1.2-3
- Update to new add_maven_depmap macro

* Wed Oct 31 2012 Stanislav Ochotnicky  - 3.1.2-2
- Use new generated maven filelist feature from javapackages-tools

* Fri Oct 05 2012 Mikolaj Izdebski  - 3.1.2-1
- Complete rewrite of the spec file
- New upstream, to ease future maintenance
- Build with maven instead of ant
- Split into multiple subpackages


ibus-chewing-1.4.3-1.fc18
-
* Mon Nov 26 2012 Ding-Yi Chen  - 1.4.3-1
- Fixed GitHub issue #30: Rework decorate_preedit
  by merging pull request #30 from buganini
- Fixed GitHub issue #31: Properly refresh property
  by merging pull request #31 from buganini


ibus-libpinyin-1.4.93-4.fc18

* Tue Nov 27 2012 Peng Wu  - 1.4.93-4
- Fixes symbol icons

* Tue Nov 20 2012 Peng Wu  - 1.4.93-3
- Fixes spec file


koji-1.7.1-1.fc18
-
* Wed Nov 21 2012 Dennis Gilmore  - 1.7.1-1
- update to upstream 1.7.1 release

* Sat Sep 01 2012 Dennis Gilmore  - 1.7.0-7
- add patch to mount all of /dev on appliances and lives

* Fri Aug 31 2012 Dennis Gilmore  - 1.7.0-4
- add patch to only make /dev/urandom if it doesnt exist
- add upstream patch for taginfo fixes with older servers


libchewing-0.3.3-5.fc18
---
* Thu Nov 22 2012 Ding-Yi Chen  - 0.3.3-5
- RPM Macro: define is replaced by global.

* Tue Nov 20 2012 Ding-Yi Chen  - 0.3.3-4
- BuildRequires for libchewing-python changed
  from python-devel to python2-devel
- RPM_BUILD_ROOT changed to buildroot

* Thu Jul 19 2012 Ding-Yi Chen  - 0.3.3-3
- Fixed Bug 477690 - libchewing multilib conflict


php-5.4.9-1.fc18

* Thu Nov 22 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-1
- update to 5.4.9

* Thu Nov 15 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-0.5.RC1
- switch back to upstream generated scanner/parser

* Thu Nov 15 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-0.4.RC1
- use _httpd_contentdir macro and fix php.gif path

* Wed Nov 14 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-0.3.RC1
- improve system libzip patch to use pkg-config

* Wed Nov 14 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-0.2.RC1
- use _httpd_moddir macro

* Wed Nov 14 2012 Remi Collet  5.4.9-0.1.RC1
- update to 5.4.9RC1
- improves php.conf (use FilesMatch + SetHandler)
- improves filter (httpd module)
- apply ldap_r patch on fedora >= 18 only


php-pear-Date-Holidays-0.21.7-1.fc18

* Sun Nov 25 2012 Remi Collet  - 0.21.7-1
- Version 0.21.7 (alpha) - API 0.17.2 (alpha)
- add all phpci detected dependencies


powertop-2.2-2.fc18
---
* Wed Nov 28 2012 Jaroslav Škarvada  - 2.2-2
- Fixed crash when writing report on readonly filesystem
  (fix-crash-on-readonly-fs patch)


soundconverter-2.0.4-7.fc18
---
* Sat Dec 01 2012 Michael Schwendt  - 2.0.4-7
- Patch further to also fix the last used folder for the "Add Folder" button.
- Patch for gnome bz #683708 and lp #1063724 GtkFileChooser problem.

* Sat Dec 01 2012 Michael Schwendt  - 2.0.4-4
- Work around folder choose issue (lp #1063724) where the folder is reset
  to the last-used-folder because nothing is selected/highlighted.

* Mon Nov 12 2012 Michael Schwendt  - 2.0.4-2
- Catch IOError when logging to stderr, which prevents crash
  in "no space left on device" condition (#874466).

* Thu Oct 18 2012 Michael Schwendt  - 2.0.4-1
- Updat

Re: How to set up layout switch shortcut

[Nikos Roussos]

It's listed as a bug [1]. There is a workaround using the tweak tool
[2].

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873849
[2] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=873849#c4


On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 15:10 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> Thanks, I tried that, but it does not recognize Alt+Shift or Ctrl
> +Shift as a shortcut. Also, if I set up a shortcut like Alt+Shift+A,
> it only works once - it switches me from english to russian, but not
> back.
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Petr Schindler 
> wrote:
> Hi,
> There is a link to 'Shortcut Settings' in 'Regional &
> Language'->'Input
> Sources'. You can set up the shortcut for switching to next
> source (and
> previous).
> On Po, 2012-12-03 at 13:46 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> > I'm trying to set up keyboard layout switching in F18 beta.
> I addeds
> > needed layouts in "Regional & Language", but I can't see
> where is the
> > option for layout switching. Currently, the only way to
> switch layout
> > which works is clicking on layout indicator on panel, but it
> is not an
> > acceptable solution.
> >
> > Am I missing something trivial here?
> >
> > Thanks.
> 



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Re: How to set up layout switch shortcut

[Pasha R]

Thanks, I tried that, but it does not recognize Alt+Shift or Ctrl+Shift as
a shortcut. Also, if I set up a shortcut like Alt+Shift+A, it only works
once - it switches me from english to russian, but not back.


On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Petr Schindler  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There is a link to 'Shortcut Settings' in 'Regional & Language'->'Input
> Sources'. You can set up the shortcut for switching to next source (and
> previous).
>
> On Po, 2012-12-03 at 13:46 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> > I'm trying to set up keyboard layout switching in F18 beta. I addeds
> > needed layouts in "Regional & Language", but I can't see where is the
> > option for layout switching. Currently, the only way to switch layout
> > which works is clicking on layout indicator on panel, but it is not an
> > acceptable solution.
> >
> > Am I missing something trivial here?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
>
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> test@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Re: How to set up layout switch shortcut

[Petr Schindler]

Hi,

There is a link to 'Shortcut Settings' in 'Regional & Language'->'Input
Sources'. You can set up the shortcut for switching to next source (and
previous).

On Po, 2012-12-03 at 13:46 +0200, Pasha R wrote:
> I'm trying to set up keyboard layout switching in F18 beta. I addeds
> needed layouts in "Regional & Language", but I can't see where is the
> option for layout switching. Currently, the only way to switch layout
> which works is clicking on layout indicator on panel, but it is not an
> acceptable solution.
> 
> Am I missing something trivial here?
> 
> Thanks.


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rawhide report: 20121203 changes

[Fedora Rawhide Report]

Compose started at Mon Dec  3 08:15:06 UTC 2012

Broken deps for x86_64
--
[ansible]
ansible-fireball-0.9-1.fc19.noarch requires python-keyczar
ansible-node-fireball-0.9-1.fc19.noarch requires python-keyczar
[cp2k]
cp2k-mpich2-2.3-1.fc19.x86_64 requires libmpichf90.so.3()(64bit)
cp2k-mpich2-2.3-1.fc19.x86_64 requires libmpich.so.3()(64bit)
[dogtag-pki]
dogtag-pki-10.0.0-0.16.b3.fc19.noarch requires dogtag-pki-server-theme 
>= 0:10.0.0
[epiphany-extensions]
epiphany-extensions-3.6.0-1.fc19.x86_64 requires epiphany(abi) = 0:3.6
[ghc-wai-extra]
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSzlib-conduit-0.4.0.2-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSzlib-bindings-0.1.0.1-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSzlib-0.5.3.3-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSwai-1.2.0.3-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSvoid-0.5.6-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSvault-0.2.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSunordered-containers-0.2.1.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSunix-2.5.1.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHStransformers-base-0.4.1-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHStransformers-0.3.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHStime-1.4-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHStext-0.11.2.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSsemigroups-0.8.3.2-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSresourcet-0.3.2.2-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSparsec-3.1.2-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSold-time-1.1.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSold-locale-1.0.0.4-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSnetwork-2.3.0.13-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSmtl-2.1.1-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSmonad-control-0.3.1.3-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSlifted-base-0.1.1-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSinteger-gmp-0.4.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHShttp-types-0.6.11-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHShashable-1.1.2.3-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSghc-prim-0.2.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSdlist-0.5-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSdirectory-1.1.0.2-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSdeepseq-1.3.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
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ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSbase-4.5.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSarray-0.4.0.0-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
libHSansi-terminal-0.5.5-ghc7.4.1.so()(64bit)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
ghc(zlib-conduit-0.4.0.2-149e1851b93bbe144b083a1f99148d21)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
ghc(wai-1.2.0.3-4466c294feb7ca5c2dfc91b47a3dad71)
ghc-wai-extra-1.2.0.4-4.fc18.x86_64 requires 
ghc(transformers-0.3.0.0-b55e1ba0a2f0da13c35eec50d1253059)
  

Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[drago01]

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Tom Horsley  wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:14:00 -0800
> Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>> Someone skilled with UI/UX did the design from the outset. The process
>> is documented in exhausting detail on her blog:
>>
>> http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/
>
> Some people (i.e. 99.999% of the population) have better things
> to do than desperately search through every random corner
> of the internet in case there happens to be someone planning
> something ill-advised so you can provide feedback (which will
> be ignored, because feedback like: "Don't change anything in
> the interface that tens of thousands of people can already
> understand and use" is always dismissed as reactionary
> obstructionism by the starry-eyed planners of the perfect
> future).

If you think that change is inherently bad ... why on earth do you
even care? I mean you could just use Fedora Core 1 and stick to it.
(exaggerated a bit ... but the "don't change anything" attitude some
people have hinders progress).
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Re: The heroes of Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing

[Kamil Paral]

> > I'd like to thank all who participated in Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta
> > testing. I have published some details here:
> > https://kparal.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/the-heroes-of-fedora-18-alphabeta-testing/
> 
> It would be good if you provided exact details on how and where from
> you gather these statistics

See the footnote in the blogpost.

> Looking at the first bug in robatino's list ( 873387 ) it's actually
> you who filed this

Yes, those are _referenced_ bugs, not filed bugs. There is no mapping between 
FAS (wiki) and Bugzilla accounts, I can't say who filed what. The purpose is 
just to see how often people reference bugs in wiki results, nothing more.

> And what's this refering to " adamwill/viking-ice "

I could have manually adjusted some quirks, I did not. This one comes from 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_18_Beta_RC1_Desktop
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Re: Rename anaconda to cryptoconda?

[Tom Horsley]

On Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:14:00 -0800
Adam Williamson wrote:

> Someone skilled with UI/UX did the design from the outset. The process
> is documented in exhausting detail on her blog:
> 
> http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/

Some people (i.e. 99.999% of the population) have better things
to do than desperately search through every random corner
of the internet in case there happens to be someone planning
something ill-advised so you can provide feedback (which will
be ignored, because feedback like: "Don't change anything in
the interface that tens of thousands of people can already
understand and use" is always dismissed as reactionary
obstructionism by the starry-eyed planners of the perfect
future).
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Re: The heroes of Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

On 12/03/2012 11:22 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:

I'd like to thank all who participated in Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing. I have 
published some details here:

https://kparal.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/the-heroes-of-fedora-18-alphabeta-testing/


It would be good if you provided exact details on how and where from you 
gather these statistics


Looking at the first bug in robatino's list ( 873387 ) it's actually you 
who filed this


And what's this refering to "adamwill/viking-ice 
"


JBG
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How to set up layout switch shortcut

[Pasha R]

I'm trying to set up keyboard layout switching in F18 beta. I added needed
layouts in "Regional & Language", but I can't see where is the option for
layout switching. Currently, the only way to switch layout which works is
clicking on layout indicator on panel, but it is not an acceptable solution.

Am I missing something trivial here?

Thanks.
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The heroes of Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing

[Kamil Paral]

I'd like to thank all who participated in Fedora 18 Alpha/Beta testing. I have 
published some details here:

https://kparal.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/the-heroes-of-fedora-18-alphabeta-testing/

Thanks again.
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Re: Canon printer/scanner driver installation problem Fedora 18 Beta

[julechner]

Thank You for Your help. I found  libpng12.so.0in the Rawhide package 
(libpng12-1.2.50-2.fc19.i686.rpm). For libtiff.so.3 so far I found nothing, but 
there is a currently not solved Bug Report in F18 concerning "libtiff". I 
think I have to wait for the 32bit system untill this bug is solved. I will try 
now to install the Canon printer on 64bit Fedora 18 Beta.
Joerg

 

 

 

-Ursprüngliche Mitteilung- 
Von: Michal Jaegermann 
An: julechner 
Verschickt: So, 2 Dez 2012 6:19 pm
Betreff: Re: Canon printer/scanner driver installation problem Fedora 18 Beta


On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 08:54:41AM -0500, julech...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Result:
> [root@localhost Downloads]# sudo rpm -U scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386.rpm
> Fehler: Fehlgeschlagende Abhängigkeiten:
> libpng12.so.0 wird benötigt von scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386
> [root@localhost Downloads]# sudo rpm -U cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386.rpm
> Fehler: Fehlgeschlagende Abhängigkeiten:
> libpng12.so.0 wird benötigt von cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386
> libtiff.so.3 wird benötigt von cnijfilter-mp540series-3.00-1.i386
> [root@localhost Downloads]# 
> 
> 
> 
> These old libraries (libpng12.so.0 and  libtiff.so.3)  -as I can see-
> have been in previous Fedora packages. I think the Canon driver
> doesn't want the corresponding libraries of Fedora 18 Beta.

You can always put copies of old libraries somewhere out of a normal
path searched for libraries and start your scanner with a shell wrapper
which adds this new location to LD_LIBRARY_PATH before calling your
scanner binaries.  See, for example,
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
for explanations and examples.

It is hard to be sure in advance but if other applications check .so
properly you can just drop copies of old libraries somewhere in that
path (likely /usr/local/lib/ will do), rerun ldconfig and be done with
it.

You can install scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386.rpm by adding --nodeps
to rpm flags.  If you do that it is up to you to ensure that required
libraries will be indeed found and assorted checks will complain now
and in the future about broken dependencies.  To prevent the last one
instead of installing via rpm you do
mkdir /var/tmp/install && cd /var/tmp/install
rpm2cpio //scangearmp-common-1.20-1.i386.rpm | cpio -imd
and after that you copy results of such unpacking into proper places
"by hand".  In such case you are entirely on your own to make sure that
everything works properly and rpm and yum will know nothing about this.
That includes missed possible future updates.

   Michal

 
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:37 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 04:31 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >> On 12/03/2012 03:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> > Getting to the first anaconda UI screen took a good 1-2 minutes. I 
> > wasn't sure if the VM had locked up as I had no indication of work 
> > being 
> > done. I can see people being frustrated with the wait and rebooting a 
> > few times and then posting on @test or @users that F18 won't install.
> >>> That's not normal, it should only take a few seconds after dracut
> >>> concludes (during which you can see that Stuff is Happening). Did you
> >>> file a bug?
> >>>
> >> I just tried this with a Vbox VM.
> >>
> >> After hitting "return" on the initial page the screen when white for
> >> about 15 seconds.  Then some lines were printed to the screen.  The
> >> last one informing that /dev/sr0 had been mounted read-only.  It then
> >> sat there for another 5 minutes before the Welcome screen appeared
> >> with the language selection dialog displayed.  During the 5 minutes
> >> the activity indicator remained on for the DVD.
> >>
> >> I just filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882828 with
> >> the description above since I don't have a clue at the moment how to
> >> gather additional information.
> > Ah - I was forgetting about this: the default option is to check the
> > medium first, right? That accounts for the delay. I believe there's
> > already a bug for showing progress during media check.
> >
> > If you pick the option that skips the media check, does that resolve the
> > delay?
> 
> Yes, and I closed by BZ as a dup of
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=874486
> 
> I didn't realize, and it isn't apparent to my old eyes, that the
> second line on the initial screen on booting the DVD is the default
> when you hit return.  I'm used to the "default" being first in the
> list.

Yeah, I seem to recall we've been round that merry-go-round before, and
somehow it's happening again. The first entry should indeed be the
default, so we should re-jig the order, I think.
-- 
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: off to a nostart F18B start

[Felix Miata]

On 2012-11-30 23:21 (GMT-0500) Felix Miata composed:


Getting to the initial GUI seemed to take forever.


I timed it, from pressing ENTER for the appropriate Grub menu entry to start 
HTTP installation, it took 5 minutes 10 seconds to reach the GUI. Most of the 
time spent with dracut-initqueue times/amounts filling the bottom of the screen.


/proc/cmdline contained:
repo=http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/fedora/releases/test/18-Beta/Fedora/x86_64/os 
ip=192.168.1.20::192.168.1.1:255.255.255.0:myhost::none 
nameserver=192.168.1.1 rd.luks=0 rd.md=0 rd.dm=0 splash=verbose noipv6 
selinux=0 resolution='1024x768' video=1024x768 vga=791 nofirewire


Doing the same thing with F17 kernel/initrd took about 4m 10s.

http://testmy.net/results reports download speed 7.9mbps

Doing the same thing with Mageia 2 took about 2m 10s.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/03/2012 04:31 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 12/03/2012 03:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> Getting to the first anaconda UI screen took a good 1-2 minutes. I 
> wasn't sure if the VM had locked up as I had no indication of work being 
> done. I can see people being frustrated with the wait and rebooting a 
> few times and then posting on @test or @users that F18 won't install.
>>> That's not normal, it should only take a few seconds after dracut
>>> concludes (during which you can see that Stuff is Happening). Did you
>>> file a bug?
>>>
>> I just tried this with a Vbox VM.
>>
>> After hitting "return" on the initial page the screen when white for
>> about 15 seconds.  Then some lines were printed to the screen.  The
>> last one informing that /dev/sr0 had been mounted read-only.  It then
>> sat there for another 5 minutes before the Welcome screen appeared
>> with the language selection dialog displayed.  During the 5 minutes
>> the activity indicator remained on for the DVD.
>>
>> I just filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882828 with
>> the description above since I don't have a clue at the moment how to
>> gather additional information.
> Ah - I was forgetting about this: the default option is to check the
> medium first, right? That accounts for the delay. I believe there's
> already a bug for showing progress during media check.
>
> If you pick the option that skips the media check, does that resolve the
> delay?

Yes, and I closed by BZ as a dup of 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=874486

I didn't realize, and it isn't apparent to my old eyes, that the second line on 
the initial screen on booting the DVD is the default when you hit return.  I'm 
used to the "default" being first in the list.

-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 16:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 03:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> >> > Getting to the first anaconda UI screen took a good 1-2 minutes. I 
> >> > wasn't sure if the VM had locked up as I had no indication of work being 
> >> > done. I can see people being frustrated with the wait and rebooting a 
> >> > few times and then posting on @test or @users that F18 won't install.
> > That's not normal, it should only take a few seconds after dracut
> > concludes (during which you can see that Stuff is Happening). Did you
> > file a bug?
> >
> 
> I just tried this with a Vbox VM.
> 
> After hitting "return" on the initial page the screen when white for
> about 15 seconds.  Then some lines were printed to the screen.  The
> last one informing that /dev/sr0 had been mounted read-only.  It then
> sat there for another 5 minutes before the Welcome screen appeared
> with the language selection dialog displayed.  During the 5 minutes
> the activity indicator remained on for the DVD.
> 
> I just filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882828 with
> the description above since I don't have a clue at the moment how to
> gather additional information.

Ah - I was forgetting about this: the default option is to check the
medium first, right? That accounts for the delay. I believe there's
already a bug for showing progress during media check.

If you pick the option that skips the media check, does that resolve the
delay?
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/03/2012 04:02 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 03:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
 Getting to the first anaconda UI screen took a good 1-2 minutes. I 
 wasn't sure if the VM had locked up as I had no indication of work being 
 done. I can see people being frustrated with the wait and rebooting a 
 few times and then posting on @test or @users that F18 won't install.
>> That's not normal, it should only take a few seconds after dracut
>> concludes (during which you can see that Stuff is Happening). Did you
>> file a bug?
>>
> I just tried this with a Vbox VM.
>
> After hitting "return" on the initial page the screen when white for about 15 
> seconds.  Then some lines were printed to the screen.  The last one informing 
> that /dev/sr0 had been mounted read-only.  It then sat there for another 5 
> minutes before the Welcome screen appeared with the language selection dialog 
> displayed.  During the 5 minutes the activity indicator remained on for the 
> DVD.
>
> I just filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882828 with the 
> description above since I don't have a clue at the moment how to gather 
> additional information.
>

Never mind.

My BZ is a dup of

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=874486


-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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Re: F18 beta experience under VM

[Ed Greshko]

On 12/03/2012 03:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 01:10 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> > Getting to the first anaconda UI screen took a good 1-2 minutes. I 
>> > wasn't sure if the VM had locked up as I had no indication of work being 
>> > done. I can see people being frustrated with the wait and rebooting a 
>> > few times and then posting on @test or @users that F18 won't install.
> That's not normal, it should only take a few seconds after dracut
> concludes (during which you can see that Stuff is Happening). Did you
> file a bug?
>

I just tried this with a Vbox VM.

After hitting "return" on the initial page the screen when white for about 15 
seconds.  Then some lines were printed to the screen.  The last one informing 
that /dev/sr0 had been mounted read-only.  It then sat there for another 5 
minutes before the Welcome screen appeared with the language selection dialog 
displayed.  During the 5 minutes the activity indicator remained on for the DVD.

I just filed https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=882828 with the 
description above since I don't have a clue at the moment how to gather 
additional information.

-- 
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger 
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and 
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, The Wizardry 
Compiled
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