Re: fedora in 2013
On 01/06/2014 10:09 PM, Tim Flink wrote: I don't have a specific percentage but from my POV, not as much as I was hoping but still within my expectations. We ended up being thrown a couple of unexpected curveballs which chewed up a decent amount of time but I don't think we're any more than a week or two behind where I was hoping we'd be at this point. And the remaining work is? JBG -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 21:47:33 + "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > On 01/06/2014 09:39 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > Of course, anything else we can do to free up not just Tim and > > Kamil, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge and skills, to > > contribute to tooling work is a good thing. > > Which brings up an interesting question how much did they manage to > cover % of the needed work during that time? I don't have a specific percentage but from my POV, not as much as I was hoping but still within my expectations. We ended up being thrown a couple of unexpected curveballs which chewed up a decent amount of time but I don't think we're any more than a week or two behind where I was hoping we'd be at this point. Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 13:39:35 -0800 Adam Williamson wrote: > On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 20:20 +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > On 01/06/2014 05:42 PM, Tim Flink wrote: > > > I want to focus on getting the base > > > automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's > > > our automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. > > > we'll help with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain > > > the ones specific to you and commit to keeping an eye on the > > > output". > > > > > > Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in > > > the road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a > > > start:) > > > > Yes but to be able to work on it requires man power and time and > > the man power is short and the time even shorter ;) > > > > If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release > > cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after > > beta. > > At the RH resource level, we've been trying to insulate Tim and Kamil > from the validation testing process as much as possible to free them > up to work on Taskotron (and other tooling projects). If you check > the F20 validation testing records, you'll see relatively little > input from Tim and Kamil, so this is at least one thing we did > _relatively_ well on with Fedora 20. > > Of course, anything else we can do to free up not just Tim and Kamil, > but anyone else with the necessary knowledge and skills, to contribute > to tooling work is a good thing. I believe you meant Josef, not Kamil but the idea is the same. Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On 01/06/2014 09:39 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Of course, anything else we can do to free up not just Tim and Kamil, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge and skills, to contribute to tooling work is a good thing. Which brings up an interesting question how much did they manage to cover % of the needed work during that time? JBG -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 21:27:44 + "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > >> If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release > >> cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after > >> beta. > > Sure, that could end up being useful but it's but one piece of the > > puzzle. It looks like 2014 is going to be an interesting year with > > all the potential changes coming up. Summing all that up as > > "everything would be OK if we could just change anaconda's > > dev/release cycle" is a bit simplistic and a touch naive. > > To you it might seem naive to be it's a key factor since once the > needed changes have been made to Anaconda's release cycle we will see > how much free resources we have and where we can allocate those > resources like to what extend we need push work into their relevant > sub-community and what's needed for the QA community members role > ( testing/triaging ) etc. I didn't say that the proposal itself was naive - just the idea that if we changed the anaconda dev/release cycle, everything would suddenly be better and all of our problems would be addressed. Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 20:20 +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 01/06/2014 05:42 PM, Tim Flink wrote: > > I want to focus on getting the base > > automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's our > > automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. we'll help > > with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain the ones specific > > to you and commit to keeping an eye on the output". > > > > Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in the > > road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a start:) > > Yes but to be able to work on it requires man power and time and the man > power is short and the time even shorter ;) > > If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release > cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after beta. At the RH resource level, we've been trying to insulate Tim and Kamil from the validation testing process as much as possible to free them up to work on Taskotron (and other tooling projects). If you check the F20 validation testing records, you'll see relatively little input from Tim and Kamil, so this is at least one thing we did _relatively_ well on with Fedora 20. Of course, anything else we can do to free up not just Tim and Kamil, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge and skills, to contribute to tooling work is a good thing. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On 01/06/2014 09:16 PM, Tim Flink wrote: On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 20:20:45 + "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: On 01/06/2014 05:42 PM, Tim Flink wrote: I want to focus on getting the base automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's our automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. we'll help with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain the ones specific to you and commit to keeping an eye on the output". Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in the road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a start:) Yes but to be able to work on it requires man power and time and the man power is short and the time even shorter ;) True, but I look at it as an investment - costly in the short term but will yield benefits in increased testing of Fedora and increased sanity for qa folks If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after beta. Sure, that could end up being useful but it's but one piece of the puzzle. It looks like 2014 is going to be an interesting year with all the potential changes coming up. Summing all that up as "everything would be OK if we could just change anaconda's dev/release cycle" is a bit simplistic and a touch naive. To you it might seem naive to be it's a key factor since once the needed changes have been made to Anaconda's release cycle we will see how much free resources we have and where we can allocate those resources like to what extend we need push work into their relevant sub-community and what's needed for the QA community members role ( testing/triaging ) etc. JBG -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 20:20:45 + "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > On 01/06/2014 05:42 PM, Tim Flink wrote: > > I want to focus on getting the base > > automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's > > our automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. we'll > > help with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain the ones > > specific to you and commit to keeping an eye on the output". > > > > Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in > > the road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a > > start:) > > Yes but to be able to work on it requires man power and time and the > man power is short and the time even shorter ;) True, but I look at it as an investment - costly in the short term but will yield benefits in increased testing of Fedora and increased sanity for qa folks > If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release > cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after > beta. Sure, that could end up being useful but it's but one piece of the puzzle. It looks like 2014 is going to be an interesting year with all the potential changes coming up. Summing all that up as "everything would be OK if we could just change anaconda's dev/release cycle" is a bit simplistic and a touch naive. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be benefits to such a change - it's just not that simple. There are other things that will need to change if we (qa) want to survive fedora.next and retain some semblance of quality for Fedora as a whole. Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On 01/06/2014 05:42 PM, Tim Flink wrote: I want to focus on getting the base automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's our automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. we'll help with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain the ones specific to you and commit to keeping an eye on the output". Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in the road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a start:) Yes but to be able to work on it requires man power and time and the man power is short and the time even shorter ;) If we want to free time to work on stuff like this Anaconda release cycle and testing must be finished before alpha or dealt with after beta. JBG -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:13:48 + "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > > On 01/06/2014 02:52 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Hi Fedora test and QA folks! I posted a (kind of long) message on > > Fedora devel with some thoughts about the direction of the project > > in the next year. A lot of it directly affects -- and is affected > > by, of course -- Fedora QA, and the whole third section about > > increased automation is basically all about QA/QE and release > > engineering. > > Beside hyperkitty and or just the entire "virtual flock" idea of > yours being far from product ready and not suitable as somekind of > community infrastructure as well as the entire concept of WG being > broken ( with the exception of the base WG which work will be > beneficial when that effort goes south ) > > We are 30 people tops ( 20 more likely ) contributing on even bases > with maybe what couple of hours to spare per week and of those 20 > there are what <10 RH employees so as you can see we dont have any > resources to do any ( wg or automation ) for that glorious future of > yours and any kind of output from the WG's but by all means continue > to dream. While I agree that the stuff in matt's email seems a little on the ambitious side, I don't really agree with your statements about not being able to do anything about it. One of the reasons that we're working on automation and tooling is to support the stuff that may be coming with fedora.next. Another reason is to decrease the insane amount of mind-numbing busywork that we do for _every_ release. If we can make the testing/validation process more efficient and more sane, I think that we can decrease the workload per person, attract more people to testing and scale all at the same time. It'll take some work to get to that point and there's no way it'll happen without support from the WGs, packagers and people not currently involved with qa. I want to focus on getting the base automation working well so that we can go to the WGs with "here's our automation system and this is how you write tasks for it. we'll help with getting tasks run but you all need to maintain the ones specific to you and commit to keeping an eye on the output". Anyhow, that's the plan in my head. I'm sure there'll be bumps in the road and changes before it's all said and done but it's a start :) Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On Mon, 2014-01-06 at 15:13 +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote: > On 01/06/2014 02:52 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Hi Fedora test and QA folks! I posted a (kind of long) message on Fedora > > devel > > with some thoughts about the direction of the project in the next year. A > > lot of it directly affects -- and is affected by, of course -- Fedora QA, > > and the whole third section about increased automation is basically all > > about QA/QE and release engineering. > > Beside hyperkitty and or just the entire "virtual flock" idea of yours > being far from product ready and not suitable as somekind of community > infrastructure as well as the entire concept of WG being broken ( with > the exception of the base WG which work will be beneficial when that > effort goes south ) > > We are 30 people tops ( 20 more likely ) contributing on even bases with > maybe what couple of hours to spare per week and of those 20 there are > what <10 RH employees so as you can see we dont have any resources to do > any ( wg or automation ) for that glorious future of yours and any kind > of output from the WG's but by all means continue to dream. I don't want to be quite as negative as Johann, but yeah, that third section of your email is...um...ambitious. I'm sure you know this, but to have it on the public record: we are a long, long, long, long, LONG way away from that vision. I'll be happy if we just have a properly working test harness in place this year. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
On 01/06/2014 02:52 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: Hi Fedora test and QA folks! I posted a (kind of long) message on Fedora devel with some thoughts about the direction of the project in the next year. A lot of it directly affects -- and is affected by, of course -- Fedora QA, and the whole third section about increased automation is basically all about QA/QE and release engineering. Beside hyperkitty and or just the entire "virtual flock" idea of yours being far from product ready and not suitable as somekind of community infrastructure as well as the entire concept of WG being broken ( with the exception of the base WG which work will be beneficial when that effort goes south ) We are 30 people tops ( 20 more likely ) contributing on even bases with maybe what couple of hours to spare per week and of those 20 there are what <10 RH employees so as you can see we dont have any resources to do any ( wg or automation ) for that glorious future of yours and any kind of output from the WG's but by all means continue to dream. JBG -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: fedora in 2013
На 6.01.2014 16:52, Matthew Miller написа: Hi Fedora test and QA folks! I posted a (kind of long) message on Fedora devel with some thoughts about the direction of the project in the next year. A lot of it directly affects -- and is affected by, of course -- Fedora QA, and the whole third section about increased automation is basically all about QA/QE and release engineering. I'm not going to repost this _everywhere_, but since this pretty big and since this is one of the more active lists where members might not all be following the devel list actively, I thought you wouldn't mind a pointer. The thread is at https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-January/193401.html, and while it'd be kind of nice to have discussion in one place, I'm happy to talk about it whereever. :) Hi Matthew, just a note for item 3. Continuous Delivery. For this we need to improve testing, which is one of my personal goals for 2014. See info about initial upstream test suite status here: http://atodorov.org/blog/2013/12/24/upstream-test-suite-status-of-fedora-20/ Email thread is here: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-December/119637.html Regards, Alex -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
