Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 00:46 +0200, drago01 wrote: > On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 08:56 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 10:09 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > >> > Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 18:38:41 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): > >> > > On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > >> > >> hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the > >> > >> same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old > >> > >> style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? > >> > ... > >> > > That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about > >> > > it. > >> > > >> > ok, thanks ... so ... it seems like a viable option to recommend > >> > installing from Live with full accessibility support and make sure the > >> > installer can make use of it, instead of putting too much AI/crystall > >> > ball magic/questions into standalone install media, right? > >> > >> Certainly this is what I'd recommend in the short term, yeah. > > > > FWIW I tested this briefly with TC5 (as I happen to be installing it for > > some other reason). The a11y menu at top-right is not present on the > > desktop live - not sure why not - > > We only show it if you used it during login. ...and you don't log in to live images, yeah. Thanks for clearing this up (for those playing along at home, drago01, mclasen and I chatted about it a bit on IRC). Looks like we can refine this in future, but it's clearly usable right now. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 08:56 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: >> On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 10:09 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: >> > Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 18:38:41 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): >> > > On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: >> > >> hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the >> > >> same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old >> > >> style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? >> > ... >> > > That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about it. >> > >> > ok, thanks ... so ... it seems like a viable option to recommend >> > installing from Live with full accessibility support and make sure the >> > installer can make use of it, instead of putting too much AI/crystall ball >> > magic/questions into standalone install media, right? >> >> Certainly this is what I'd recommend in the short term, yeah. > > FWIW I tested this briefly with TC5 (as I happen to be installing it for > some other reason). The a11y menu at top-right is not present on the > desktop live - not sure why not - We only show it if you used it during login. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 08:56 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 10:09 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > > Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 18:38:41 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): > > > On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > > >> hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the > > >> same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old > > >> style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? > > ... > > > That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about it. > > > > ok, thanks ... so ... it seems like a viable option to recommend installing > > from Live with full accessibility support and make sure the installer can > > make use of it, instead of putting too much AI/crystall ball > > magic/questions into standalone install media, right? > > Certainly this is what I'd recommend in the short term, yeah. FWIW I tested this briefly with TC5 (as I happen to be installing it for some other reason). The a11y menu at top-right is not present on the desktop live - not sure why not - but the 'high contrast' and 'large text' options in the 'Universal Access' configuration applet both work, and both apply to anaconda. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 10:09 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 18:38:41 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): > > On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > >> hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the > >> same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old > >> style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? > ... > > That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about it. > > ok, thanks ... so ... it seems like a viable option to recommend installing > from Live with full accessibility support and make sure the installer can > make use of it, instead of putting too much AI/crystall ball magic/questions > into standalone install media, right? Certainly this is what I'd recommend in the short term, yeah. > /me just votes for supporting different Lives with different UIs, not only > the GNOME Shell based one The thing is, GNOME has probably the best a11y support of all the desktops, as Sun spent a lot of money on it a ways back. I think KDE has some but not much, and the others basically don't bother. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 04:22:39 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: > Furthermore, I require maximum installation time configurability. No live > media installer I've ever tried has offered anything remotely close to > meeting this requirement. Well, Fedora 19 solves your problem then, since the "full" installer doesn't allow much more in the way of package selection than the live cd :-). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-21 10:09 (GMT+0200) Karel Volný composed: /me just votes for supporting different Lives with different UIs, not only the GNOME Shell based one Won't work for me. I do a lot of installs, but few or only one of any given version, so most of the time I only download what's going to get used for installing and/or get installed: an installation kernel an installation initrd optionally a squash.img packages the installer will actually install (which installation downloads, not me) Furthermore, I require maximum installation time configurability. No live media installer I've ever tried has offered anything remotely close to meeting this requirement. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 18:38:41 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? ... That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about it. ok, thanks ... so ... it seems like a viable option to recommend installing from Live with full accessibility support and make sure the installer can make use of it, instead of putting too much AI/crystall ball magic/questions into standalone install media, right? /me just votes for supporting different Lives with different UIs, not only the GNOME Shell based one K. -- Karel Volný QE BaseOs/Daemons Team Red Hat Czech, Brno tel. +420 532294274 (RH: +420 532294111 ext. 8262074) xmpp ka...@jabber.cz :: "Never attribute to malice what can :: easily be explained by stupidity." -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013, Adam Williamson wrote: There are probably a thousand questions we could ask at the first stage of install that would allow various small groups of people to have a more 'tailored' installer in some way. How do you decide which to ask and which not to ask? One might put alleviating pain before convenience. Font size might be a show-stopper for some people. A lot of other things can be fixed after one has a running system. Also, one could post the list and ask the users. On Wed, 19 Jun 2013, John Morris wrote: On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 08:46 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: would be better than playing catch up later. It wouldn't even have to involve numbers and stats most people wouldn't understand. Autodetect everything and use that to display a sample dialog with a simple statement/question. "Fedora has automatically detected your display and hopefully adjusted itself to it. Is the text in this dialog: [Too big] [Too small] [Just right]" I think that I would dispense with autodetection of physical dimensions. There are too many things that lie. Just start with the default and ask "Is the text in this dialog: [Too big] [Too small] [Just right]". -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu "On Monday, I'm gonna have to tell my kindergarten class, whom I teach not to run with scissors, that my fiance ran me through with a broadsword." -- Lily -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:31 +0200, Karel Volný wrote: > Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 5:01:12 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): > > Right, right now you could run anaconda from the desktop live and use > > GNOME's A11y features. We don't really test that, but it's there as an > > option. > > hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the same as > netinstall for example), or does it still work the old style, i.e. you can't > choose different filesystem? > > if I remember, there were good reasons not to use LiveCD/DVDs for installing, > has it changed? > > - I haven't noticed any changes in this field ... then again, I'm master in > missing announcements and obvious docs :-) That changed in F18, though we really didn't make enough noise about it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
Dne čtvrtek, 20. června 2013 5:01:12 CEST, Adam Williamson napsal(a): Right, right now you could run anaconda from the desktop live and use GNOME's A11y features. We don't really test that, but it's there as an option. hm, does the install from Live work like a clean install (the same as netinstall for example), or does it still work the old style, i.e. you can't choose different filesystem? if I remember, there were good reasons not to use LiveCD/DVDs for installing, has it changed? - I haven't noticed any changes in this field ... then again, I'm master in missing announcements and obvious docs :-) K. -- Karel Volný QE BaseOs/Daemons Team Red Hat Czech, Brno tel. +420 532294274 (RH: +420 532294111 ext. 8262074) xmpp ka...@jabber.cz :: "Never attribute to malice what can :: easily be explained by stupidity." -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 16:21 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 15:19 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: > > > It's not a reason not to 'have a feature', but it may be a reason not to > > > implement a feature in a particular way. > > > > > > There are probably a thousand questions we could ask at the first stage > > > of install that would allow various small groups of people to have a > > > more 'tailored' installer in some way. How do you decide which to ask > > > and which not to ask? > > > > Shouldn't this just be solved by getting anaconda to hook into the existing > > a11y framework? > > > > No need to hook anything, you just need to run the installer in a > session, then all the infrastructure is available: accessibility, input > methods, etc. > > Anaconda with large text: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-large-text.png > Anaconda with zoom: > http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-zoom.png Right, right now you could run anaconda from the desktop live and use GNOME's A11y features. We don't really test that, but it's there as an option. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 15:19 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: > > It's not a reason not to 'have a feature', but it may be a reason not to > > implement a feature in a particular way. > > > > There are probably a thousand questions we could ask at the first stage > > of install that would allow various small groups of people to have a > > more 'tailored' installer in some way. How do you decide which to ask > > and which not to ask? > > Shouldn't this just be solved by getting anaconda to hook into the existing > a11y framework? > No need to hook anything, you just need to run the installer in a session, then all the infrastructure is available: accessibility, input methods, etc. Anaconda with large text: http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-large-text.png Anaconda with zoom: http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-zoom.png -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: > It's not a reason not to 'have a feature', but it may be a reason not to > implement a feature in a particular way. > > There are probably a thousand questions we could ask at the first stage > of install that would allow various small groups of people to have a > more 'tailored' installer in some way. How do you decide which to ask > and which not to ask? Shouldn't this just be solved by getting anaconda to hook into the existing a11y framework? Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 12:59 -0300, Bruno Medeiros wrote: > > > > It'd be an improvement for the still small number of people > who need it. > For everyone else it'd be a pointless question, which is one > of the > things we've been trying to take *out* of the installer, not > add to it. > See? Different imperatives. > > > I don't think that having a small number of users needing a feature is > a valid reason to not consider the feature. If we follow that way of > thinking, we are acting like the developer that don't support > GNU/Linux because of the small market share. It's not a reason not to 'have a feature', but it may be a reason not to implement a feature in a particular way. There are probably a thousand questions we could ask at the first stage of install that would allow various small groups of people to have a more 'tailored' installer in some way. How do you decide which to ask and which not to ask? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 19 June 2013 17:46, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 10:41 -0500, Michael Hennebry wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Jun 2013, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 15:02 -0500, John Morris wrote: > > > > >> So lemme recap what you have been saying in this and other posts > > >> The > > >> current design breaks both internationalization and accessability and > > >> you recognize that reality. Fixing these problems isn't an option > > >> though because well because. > > >> > > >> Tearing Anaconda apart and rebuilding it from the ground up was an > > >> imperative, complaints be damned, because the Anaconda devs had a > > >> hankering to do that; they had a fever and the only cure was some > > >> more > > >> cowbell. But making it useable while they already had it tore apart? > > >> Nobody was interested in that. > > > > > What I'm saying is that there isn't a quick fix to this, which is what > > > Felix always suggests; his suggestions always boil down to "make the > > > fonts bigger! now!" > > > > > Given all of that, it's almost never the case that there's a 'quick > > > fix' > > > for anything when it comes to the UI. If we're going to make anaconda > > > more accessible we need to take an overview of how to do it without > > > compromising its other design goals, not just start throwing out quick > > > fix ideas. > > > > While I doubt that there is a quick road to perfection, > > making things better should not be all that nasty. > > There is no need to ask the display how big it is. > > Just ask the user if a bigger font is desired. > > The user does not need to be given a lot of choices. > > 96, 192 and something in between would be an improvement. > > It'd be an improvement for the still small number of people who need it. I haven't tested the F19 installer, but in the F18 installer, under "Troubleshooting", there's an "Install Fedora using basic graphics mode" option which makes Anaconda use the Vesa driver. I think anyone can see the text in the installer under that mode. [] -- Ahmad Samir -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 12:59:57 -0300 Bruno Medeiros wrote: > > I don't need this problem fixed personally, but if I were in > position, I would consider ideas to fix the problem for people who > have it, specially if the problem is a big problem (not being able > to read the text, for example). My daughter since age 12 (now 23) is almost blind in one eye, bad vision in the other. Her solution to small text PC or otherwise a magnifying glass on a cap. Which gave her back large text. -- Regards, Frank "When in doubt PANIC!" I check for new mail app. 20min www.frankly3d.com -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 10:41 -0500, Michael Hennebry wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jun 2013, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 15:02 -0500, John Morris wrote: > > >> So lemme recap what you have been saying in this and other posts The > >> current design breaks both internationalization and accessability and > >> you recognize that reality. Fixing these problems isn't an option > >> though because well because. > >> > >> Tearing Anaconda apart and rebuilding it from the ground up was an > >> imperative, complaints be damned, because the Anaconda devs had a > >> hankering to do that; they had a fever and the only cure was some more > >> cowbell. But making it useable while they already had it tore apart? > >> Nobody was interested in that. > > > What I'm saying is that there isn't a quick fix to this, which is what > > Felix always suggests; his suggestions always boil down to "make the > > fonts bigger! now!" > > > Given all of that, it's almost never the case that there's a 'quick fix' > > for anything when it comes to the UI. If we're going to make anaconda > > more accessible we need to take an overview of how to do it without > > compromising its other design goals, not just start throwing out quick > > fix ideas. > > While I doubt that there is a quick road to perfection, > making things better should not be all that nasty. > There is no need to ask the display how big it is. > Just ask the user if a bigger font is desired. > The user does not need to be given a lot of choices. > 96, 192 and something in between would be an improvement. It'd be an improvement for the still small number of people who need it. For everyone else it'd be a pointless question, which is one of the things we've been trying to take *out* of the installer, not add to it. See? Different imperatives. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 15:02 -0500, John Morris wrote: So lemme recap what you have been saying in this and other posts The current design breaks both internationalization and accessability and you recognize that reality. Fixing these problems isn't an option though because well because. Tearing Anaconda apart and rebuilding it from the ground up was an imperative, complaints be damned, because the Anaconda devs had a hankering to do that; they had a fever and the only cure was some more cowbell. But making it useable while they already had it tore apart? Nobody was interested in that. What I'm saying is that there isn't a quick fix to this, which is what Felix always suggests; his suggestions always boil down to "make the fonts bigger! now!" Given all of that, it's almost never the case that there's a 'quick fix' for anything when it comes to the UI. If we're going to make anaconda more accessible we need to take an overview of how to do it without compromising its other design goals, not just start throwing out quick fix ideas. While I doubt that there is a quick road to perfection, making things better should not be all that nasty. There is no need to ask the display how big it is. Just ask the user if a bigger font is desired. The user does not need to be given a lot of choices. 96, 192 and something in between would be an improvement. -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu "On Monday, I'm gonna have to tell my kindergarten class, whom I teach not to run with scissors, that my fiance ran me through with a broadsword." -- Lily -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-18 16:26 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: You can't just assume the DPI given for a display is correct or appropriate; the situation is far more complex. I agree unconditionally. 'Let's size everything physically!' seems like a neat idea when you first read about it, but it never works out quite that well in practice. It is most certainly not a neat idea. It can work well only in limited circumstances. Even if controlling physical size was more workable conceptually, simply the idea of control begets the bigger problem of choosing size. A11Y means the people doing the reading should be the only ones with real control over physical size. The anaconda team is hardly a bunch of 20-somethings... 70-somethings non-zero? 60? 50? Are more than a pittance over 40? Any with visual acuity below 33rd percentile? Do more than zero primarily use a desktop display that is smaller than average? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 18:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > I'm not saying make text bigger unconditionally. I'm saying text needs to be > sized in a reasonable (aka fully rational) relationship to both device > density and user characteristics, not stuffing gray 9px or 10px text down the > throats of all regardless of their hardware or visual acuity. And the other point I'm making is that that's a) not anaconda's problem to solve and b) not an easy problem for *anyone* to solve. You can't just assume the DPI given for a display is correct or appropriate; the situation is far more complex. That's what all those links I pasted in your bug report are about. 'Let's size everything physically!' seems like a neat idea when you first read about it, but it never works out quite that well in practice. > The only solace for today's visually challenged is that today's young > software creators lucky enough to reach old age and accumulate the wisdom > that should accompany it will in fact survive to old age, where likely good > eyesight will exist only in what's left of their cranial memories. The anaconda team is hardly a bunch of 20-somethings... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-18 13:51 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 15:02 -0500, John Morris wrote: though because well because. What I'm saying is that there isn't a quick fix to this, which is what Felix always suggests; his suggestions always boil down to "make the fonts bigger! now!" The urgency is because it's inanely long overdue. Whenever it was that F17 was forked from Rawhide it had long been known current device densities were wider in range, averaging higher than the past, and accelerating upward further. The reason they aren't already averaging higher than they are is lack of software capability holding back their utility, causing manufacturer caution to hold back tooling investment unlikely to be recouped through sales. I'm not saying make text bigger unconditionally. I'm saying text needs to be sized in a reasonable (aka fully rational) relationship to both device density and user characteristics, not stuffing gray 9px or 10px text down the throats of all regardless of their hardware or visual acuity. I'm also saying that those who need text bigger than average need an accessible way to have it. Everyone not legally blind ought to be able to use a normally equipped generic PC if he wants or needs to. The stumbling blocks to a state that it were so are a shameful paradox, considering the power of computers and related technology. The way it is now is like it was for coloreds before Martin Luther King's legacy, unable to go places and do things because of the misfortune of being born with the wrong skin color, only now it's the misfortune of eyesight not as good as naive and/or inconsiderate software creators. The only solace for today's visually challenged is that today's young software creators lucky enough to reach old age and accumulate the wisdom that should accompany it will in fact survive to old age, where likely good eyesight will exist only in what's left of their cranial memories. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 15:02 -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 12:12 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > No, that's not the point at all. The point is that there is only so much > > space for text in the UI. Have you tried running anaconda in Japanese or > > German at 800x600? When there's too much text on a spoke (those are both > > languages which use a lot of characters to say the same thing compared > > to English), the display of the spoke becomes entirely corrupted. > > So lemme recap what you have been saying in this and other posts The > current design breaks both internationalization and accessability and > you recognize that reality. Fixing these problems isn't an option > though because well because. > > Tearing Anaconda apart and rebuilding it from the ground up was an > imperative, complaints be damned, because the Anaconda devs had a > hankering to do that; they had a fever and the only cure was some more > cowbell. But making it useable while they already had it tore apart? > Nobody was interested in that. > > Or am I just being a Negative Nancy? > > I don't think so. Specifying UI in pixels is an outdated 20th Century > concept that was justified in a day of 16bit computers with pitiful > resources and bitmapped fonts. We have surrendered to the notion of > wasting cycles on darned near everything else, why not blow some on > something actually useful? Yet Anaconda has went through more than one > major rework/rewrite/retool since the turn of the Century and the entry > into the era of computing 'plenty' and is still bound to an 800x600 SVGA > display that hasn't even been seen on the surplus market in a decade. > Ok, it does help install on a netbook, but it really is time to make it > variable and give every install screen a vertical scrollbar to eliminate > the possibility of dialogs that won't fit. What I'm saying is that there isn't a quick fix to this, which is what Felix always suggests; his suggestions always boil down to "make the fonts bigger! now!" anaconda's a complex application operating under a lot of different constraints: work at low resolutions (people ALWAYS bitch and moan when it doesn't, all those millions of Eee 701s that were sold are still out there somewhere and apparently all their owners want to run Fedora), provide as much information as possible to the user, look good, keep the code simple so it can be maintained, provide lots of complex functionality. Given all of that, it's almost never the case that there's a 'quick fix' for anything when it comes to the UI. If we're going to make anaconda more accessible we need to take an overview of how to do it without compromising its other design goals, not just start throwing out quick fix ideas. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 16:03 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:51:09 -0700 > Adam Williamson wrote: > > > You're drawing an erroneous conclusion from a sample of two displays. It > > is not always the case that larger displays have a higher native DPI > > than smaller displays. > > So we just need to all chip in and buy the anaconda developers > one of these, and suddenly font sizes and readability would become a high > priority :-). > > http://www.sharp-world.com/products/professional-monitors/products/pn-k321/index.html Oh, you can get a high DPI display much cheaper: just buy a MBP Retina or a Pixel (or a Kirabook, now). But they kinda prove the point that (as you say) dpi-fundamentalism is misguided. My laptop is 1920x1080 at 13", which is about 170dpi, but if I set it to 170 dpi the fonts look *huge*. If I set it to 170dpi and put the laptop 1.5 feet away from my eyes, where my desktop displays are, it looks fine...and then I can't type on it any more. In practice, I set my laptop's dpi to about 130 to get it to 'look right'. I rather suspect the world is going to go with the dumb-but-practical Apple solution: have a few DPI Buckets and just support those. So maybe you'll be able to use 96, 144 or 192 and things will be made to 'look right'... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:51:09 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: > You're drawing an erroneous conclusion from a sample of two displays. It > is not always the case that larger displays have a higher native DPI > than smaller displays. So we just need to all chip in and buy the anaconda developers one of these, and suddenly font sizes and readability would become a high priority :-). http://www.sharp-world.com/products/professional-monitors/products/pn-k321/index.html -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 15:46 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > > Well, no, that's absolutely useless and just reviving a decade old > > bikeshed. That is not what I was planning to do at all. Fixed 96dpi is a > > ship that's sailed. > > It can't be denied that forcing is doing what it's doing. Whether to do > anything about it directly is a different matter. If there's an easier way to > keep text from shrinking as display size increases, fine; but don't continue > to penalize people who follow a logical course of action when they need or > want bigger. Text that shrinks as available space for it increases is idiotic. You're drawing an erroneous conclusion from a sample of two displays. It is not always the case that larger displays have a higher native DPI than smaller displays. In fact, desktop PC displays almost all have DPIs in the narrow range of 95-110 - varying within that range in a fashion that is not predictably related to screen size - precisely because Windows locks its DPI to 96 by default, and with a 'logical' DPI of 96, a display with a 'physical' DPI of about 100-105 is what looks 'right' to most people. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 15:46 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > On 2013-06-15 12:12 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: > > > The point is that there is only so much > > space for text in the UI. Have you tried running anaconda in Japanese or > > German at 800x600? When there's too much text on a spoke (those are both > > languages which use a lot of characters to say the same thing compared > > to English), the display of the spoke becomes entirely corrupted. > > Who's forcing anyone to run a native display mode during installation? The > Mandriva/Mageia approach seems rather sensible: announce a limited choice of > display resolutions at initialization and in the docs, then use the highest > of the limited choices even when the device's native mode is much higher. > It/they default to 800x600, offering text and 1024x768 as alternatives, and > plant windows sized to 1024x768 in the middle of a larger background for any > who figure out how to (unnecessarily) get X into any mode higher than > 1024x768 during the OS installation process. What? I didn't say anything about native resolutions. The point is that anaconda's layout gets completely corrupted if text takes up too much space. If you make the text bigger, which is what you're proposing, people are inevitably going to start running into that problem. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-15 12:14 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: Oh, and trying to size an entire UI in relative units in a GTK+/glade project is a giant PITA, so far as I understand. Maybe with the increasing disparity among environments the time has come to retire it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-15 12:12 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: The point is that there is only so much space for text in the UI. Have you tried running anaconda in Japanese or German at 800x600? When there's too much text on a spoke (those are both languages which use a lot of characters to say the same thing compared to English), the display of the spoke becomes entirely corrupted. Who's forcing anyone to run a native display mode during installation? The Mandriva/Mageia approach seems rather sensible: announce a limited choice of display resolutions at initialization and in the docs, then use the highest of the limited choices even when the device's native mode is much higher. It/they default to 800x600, offering text and 1024x768 as alternatives, and plant windows sized to 1024x768 in the middle of a larger background for any who figure out how to (unnecessarily) get X into any mode higher than 1024x768 during the OS installation process. Well, no, that's absolutely useless and just reviving a decade old bikeshed. That is not what I was planning to do at all. Fixed 96dpi is a ship that's sailed. It can't be denied that forcing is doing what it's doing. Whether to do anything about it directly is a different matter. If there's an easier way to keep text from shrinking as display size increases, fine; but don't continue to penalize people who follow a logical course of action when they need or want bigger. Text that shrinks as available space for it increases is idiotic. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-15 15:04 (GMT-0400) Tom Horsley composed: On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:57:18 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: X forced DPI = 96 on displays natively > 96 DPI causes a11y issues https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974780 But you gotta be really careful :-). My Samsung TV I use as a display reports itself as 7 inches (it is really 46). If it actually believes the EDID info, you get fonts so gigantic nothing actually fits on the screen :-). Obviously competent provision for working around bad EDID is necessary. The bug is explicitly about working with valid EDID. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 12:12 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 14:57 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > > On 2013-06-15 08:08 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: > > > > >> I would want (for F20 if possible) to be able to change the font size > > >> easily. > > > > > It's really not technically possible to do that with how anaconda's > > > written. > > > > I suspect the solution is both possible, and easier than you think. Likely > > it's constructed in similar fashion to web pages that size in pixels > > instead > > of characters (em/rem/ex) or fractions thereof. Dispensing with pixel > > values > > of more than a single digit for sizing anything other than bitmap images > > unleashes the natural adaptability of a display screen that doesn't apply > > to > > designing for paper. > > No, that's not the point at all. The point is that there is only so much > space for text in the UI. Have you tried running anaconda in Japanese or > German at 800x600? When there's too much text on a spoke (those are both > languages which use a lot of characters to say the same thing compared > to English), the display of the spoke becomes entirely corrupted. Oh, and trying to size an entire UI in relative units in a GTK+/glade project is a giant PITA, so far as I understand. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 14:57 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > On 2013-06-15 08:08 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: > > >> I would want (for F20 if possible) to be able to change the font size > >> easily. > > > It's really not technically possible to do that with how anaconda's > > written. > > I suspect the solution is both possible, and easier than you think. Likely > it's constructed in similar fashion to web pages that size in pixels instead > of characters (em/rem/ex) or fractions thereof. Dispensing with pixel values > of more than a single digit for sizing anything other than bitmap images > unleashes the natural adaptability of a display screen that doesn't apply to > designing for paper. No, that's not the point at all. The point is that there is only so much space for text in the UI. Have you tried running anaconda in Japanese or German at 800x600? When there's too much text on a spoke (those are both languages which use a lot of characters to say the same thing compared to English), the display of the spoke becomes entirely corrupted. > > The UI is to an extent written around the text. You can't just > > change all the text to be 20pt in size and still have the UI work; stuff > > just doesn't _fit_ any more. > > > I'm going to look up some a11y guidelines from respectable institutions > > and file a few bugs on things it might be plausible to fix, but it's not > > any kind of simple 'implement ctrl+' fix, I'm afraid. > > I've filed the first one for you: > > X forced DPI = 96 on displays natively > 96 DPI causes a11y issues > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974780 Well, no, that's absolutely useless and just reviving a decade old bikeshed. That is not what I was planning to do at all. Fixed 96dpi is a ship that's sailed. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:57:18 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: > X forced DPI = 96 on displays natively > 96 DPI causes a11y issues > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974780 But you gotta be really careful :-). My Samsung TV I use as a display reports itself as 7 inches (it is really 46). If it actually believes the EDID info, you get fonts so gigantic nothing actually fits on the screen :-). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision
On 2013-06-15 08:08 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: I would want (for F20 if possible) to be able to change the font size easily. It's really not technically possible to do that with how anaconda's written. I suspect the solution is both possible, and easier than you think. Likely it's constructed in similar fashion to web pages that size in pixels instead of characters (em/rem/ex) or fractions thereof. Dispensing with pixel values of more than a single digit for sizing anything other than bitmap images unleashes the natural adaptability of a display screen that doesn't apply to designing for paper. The UI is to an extent written around the text. You can't just change all the text to be 20pt in size and still have the UI work; stuff just doesn't _fit_ any more. I'm going to look up some a11y guidelines from respectable institutions and file a few bugs on things it might be plausible to fix, but it's not any kind of simple 'implement ctrl+' fix, I'm afraid. I've filed the first one for you: X forced DPI = 96 on displays natively > 96 DPI causes a11y issues https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974780 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision, was Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...[consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 12:07 +0300, moshe nahmias wrote: > I agree with Gavin, I have a poor vision because of Keratoconus and on > most cases it's not easy or comfortable for me to read things when > installing fedora. > > More important is that we should consider poor eyesight since we want > any one to be able to install and use fedora. > > I would want (for F20 if possible) to be able to change the font size > easily. It's really not technically possible to do that with how anaconda's written. The UI is to an extent written around the text. You can't just change all the text to be 20pt in size and still have the UI work; stuff just doesn't _fit_ any more. I'm going to look up some a11y guidelines from respectable institutions and file a few bugs on things it might be plausible to fix, but it's not any kind of simple 'implement ctrl+' fix, I'm afraid. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
consider people with poor vision, was Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...[consider people with poor vision
On 15/06/13 16:22, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-06-14 12:53 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: [...] Among the many other complaints other people have raised about the installer, I don't recall one other person complaining about text being too small. Do you think people in the business of developing software or otherwise using a PC for most of any given work day are people whose vision is below average? I don't. I think quite the opposite, that those with poorer than average vision gravitate away from using a PC screen any more than they must, that many won't do it at all, and that few such people pursue occupations that require doing more than a little that requires using a PC. Net result is most in the puter business, including FOSS software testers, have both better than average vision, and more importantly, little or no understanding of or appreciation for the difficulties encountered by those who see less well. People aren't complaining because the people doing are almost entirely made up of a class of people with good vision, people who do it because they don't have undue visual obstacles to doing it. [...] For several years, I often had very misty vision because the layer of cells above my cornea could not handle moisture properly. Sometimes it was so bad that I could hardly read the keyboard at 300mm, and glancing around the screen meant I could eassily miss things. I remember concentrating hard to resolve whether a character was a comma ',' or a full stop '.' (similarly 'a' & 'e') - not good for a software developer. I have had cataract surgery, and surgery to replace those layer of cells from grafts. So now I can see the screen quite fine with glasses - even from a metre away, whereas previously I needed to be at 600mm or closer depending on how misty my eyes were. Well I am 62 and still doing software development - so please do not put important things in small print and avoid dark grey text on a light grey background etc. (I can read it if I notice it, but I might miss its significant if I just glance at the screen). When my eyes were misty, I often recognised things by their overall shape even when individual characters where fuzzy. I am lucky (I know people who were a lot younger than I am, with much worse vision), I now can reduce fonts to less than their default sizes and see quite well, though I notice I tend to make browser text bigger. For me, what helped most (prior to my eye surgeries) was getting a 30" monitor. Now the biggest nuisance is swapping glasses: one for my laptop, one for my monitor, and no glasses required for walking around & driving. In conclusion, there is a whole continuum between perfect vision & being blind. So for really important things, especially if considered unexpected (either by new people - or people familiar with that screen, but something important has changed) be carefully how the text is presented. Cheers, Gavin -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
