Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On Fri, 2013-04-26 at 15:39 -0500, Ian Pilcher wrote: On 04/25/2013 10:52 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. But anyway, this is a general introductory video to GNOME aimed at very new users; if you're geeky enough to have gone out and carefully sourced a keyboard with no Super key, you are not the target audience of the video, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem. Based on the pictures that DJ posted later, it looks like his keyboard is the same IBM model M that I have, and I sure as heck didn't care- fully source a Super key-less keyboard. As far as I know, the Windows/ Super key hadn't been invented when my keyboard was manufactured back in 1996. (If it had been invented, it certainly wasn't ubiquitous.) Okay, okay, if you're still using one, you get a pass. But come on, understand that about 99% of existing PC keyboards have a Super/System/Windows/Whatever key, and it seems kind of a waste of effort to hack up the video just to acknowledge those of us who still have prehistoric keyboards. I mean, can we agree it's a bit nitpicky? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On Fri, 2013-04-26 at 00:51 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Welcome dialog is on rightmost monitor, not main monitor (the black Gnome menu is on main monitor). We don't really have any way of knowing what the main monitor is, in a multiple monitor setup. I think X just goes with enumeration order until you specify it somehow... I don't know enough about xrandr to say, but it did figure out which monitor to put the black menu on :-) The odd part was that the welcome dialog and the menu were on different monitors. That's a GNOME design, I remember finding it a bit confusing at first but now I just hit Esc. The idea is that it's a 'shield' in front of your desktop, which you swipe away. I did hit Esc, it didn't work. That's odd. Works fine here, on multiple systems, metal and virt. No options in keyboard layout window - it brought up a blank list and made me pick one. Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here? Which 'keyboard layout window' is this? The first Welcome thing you get after the white intro movie, just before you're asked to create a user account. Maybe it was an input methods window? It was a blank dialog, I had to press next, I couldn't figure out what its purpose was. That...doesn't match how I've seen it in all my testing. The 'initial setup' stuff comes before you see the intro movie - the intro movie happens after you actually log in. Maybe this is affected by creating a user in anaconda somehow. I don't recall seeing any empty dialog. No, that's not the idea. The integration between anaconda, initial-setup and gnome-initial-setup just isn't entirely done yet. I think if you create a user in anaconda it's an admin user by default, but I'm not 100% sure. It should probably give you the option. IIRC it was the other way around, anaconda's user was the non-admin. It's not about being one or the other 'way around'. We don't actually intend for you to see the g-i-s user creation step if you already created a user in anaconda. The various user creation methods are meant to be *alternatives*. Clearly, your keyboard is broken. I'd return it. ;) They didn't have a Windows key in 1984, and I'm NOT returning my Model M :-) I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. But anyway, this is a general introductory video to GNOME aimed at very new users; if you're geeky enough to have gone out and carefully sourced a keyboard with no Super key, you are not the target audience of the video, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem. You call it a Super key, but you show a Windows logo (you hide it but it's obvious) in the movie. Careful with that 'you'! I don't work on GNOME. Sure, they could make two different introductory videos and write some heuristic for counting keys and then have all the fun of dealing with bugs in that for the rest of eternity (because you just *know* hardware is never simple, and there'll be some oddball keyboard with 101 keys and a Super key, and some oddball keyboard with 105 keys but no Super key...). Or they could just make one video, and show it, and the 1% of people without a Super key could just somehow manage to move forward with their lives =) I mean, sure, you could view this as a 'bug'. It just doesn't seem like a very important one. I have a Model M too. I saw the video and went 'eh'. The movie actually shows two common forms of Super key: the Windows key and the Command key that is found on Mac hardware. And you can ask the keyboard how many keys it has. Resizing firefox is VERY slow - about 2-3 FPS. Try booting with slub_debug=- . Pre-Beta builds of Fedora use debug kernels, which are much slower than release kernels. Yeah, I know about that. Nothing else was that slow though. analog 5.1 test speakers emits no output to subwoofer (the other 5 speakers worked fine) Digital spdif output does not have options for surround sound *at all* (the hardware is known-good under F17). Where did you look? Er, the gnome sound settings dialog. I currently (F17) use the pavucontrol app to switch between analog stereo (gaming headset) and digital surround (movies) but I was going for the eat the dogfood option. Try it with pavucontrol. If you see the setting there but not in GNOME's control panel, file a bug on gnome-control-center. Xrandr settings should be site-wide, not personal (esp, they're ignored for the greeter screen). The greeter is hard to use because you can't keep track of where the cursor is due to the misconfigured screens. What do you mean by 'xrandr' settings exactly? Layout and rotation of monitors. It seems silly that the physical layout of the monitors should be a per-user setting when the hardware doesn't change between users. Each time I choose switch user all the monitors revert to their unconfigured setting and I have to re-run the
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. Before today, I've never heard of it. I'm going to guess the Windows key, the Super key, and the Command key, are synonyms (nearly the same purpose on their respective platforms, used as a modifier key). Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
I think this is because it's impossible to build a non-patent-infringing version, but IMBW. Yeah, I know. Yeah...'typical for four monitors' is still pretty edge case, y'know =) At the time, it was typical for one 30 monitor to buy smaller monitor(s) to go beside it (the 20 rotated matched up perfectly). My son has a similar setup; one 1080p main monitor for WoW with a smaller portrait monitor beside it for Facebook. My daughter has two monitors, a small main monitor with a larger one above it. Nobody in our family has two same-sized monitors. I don't think I could fit four monitors on my desk. My solution to that was to build a bigger desk :-) (but that's even more edge case than usual for me) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
Hi On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. Before today, I've never heard of it. I'm going to guess the Windows key, the Super key, and the Command key, are synonyms (nearly the same purpose on their respective platforms, used as a modifier key). Yes. Super key is a very old term and comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard These days it just means the modifier key. GNOME calls it System key https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On 04/25/2013 11:51 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: I did hit Esc, it didn't work. You want the Enter key. :) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On 04/25/2013 10:52 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. But anyway, this is a general introductory video to GNOME aimed at very new users; if you're geeky enough to have gone out and carefully sourced a keyboard with no Super key, you are not the target audience of the video, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem. Based on the pictures that DJ posted later, it looks like his keyboard is the same IBM model M that I have, and I sure as heck didn't care- fully source a Super key-less keyboard. As far as I know, the Windows/ Super key hadn't been invented when my keyboard was manufactured back in 1996. (If it had been invented, it certainly wasn't ubiquitous.) -- Ian Pilcher arequip...@gmail.com Sometimes there's nothing left to do but crash and burn...or die trying. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
Not sure how many of these are specific to the Radeon driver, but I kept notes as I went through the whole install/test process, and I'm including them here in case they help anyone. I'm available for more detailed testing if needed. hardware: Intel six-core i7-EE, 24GB RAM, Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R motherboard ATI Radeon HD 6870 with four monitors (one 30, two rotated 20, one 23) My monitor setup is: one 30 2560x1600 in the middle, one 20 1200x1600 (rotated) on each side, and the 1080p way off on the right. Basic install went OK. Welcome dialog is on rightmost monitor, not main monitor (the black Gnome menu is on main monitor). After the screen saver kicked in, it wasn't obvious how to leave the giant clock screen (none of the usual key presses or mouse clicks did anything). Only later was I shown the up-arrow thing but clicking on it did nothing. Eventually I tried swiping it which worked after a few tries. Swiping a clock up a 30 monitor isn't the most natural way to disable a screensaver. No options in keyboard layout window - it brought up a blank list and made me pick one. It then asks to create local account despite already doing so in anaconda. Could not skip or re-enter same data. Anaconda should tell you that the account you create *there* is *not* an admin, and that you will be *required* to create yet another account later, which *is* an admin. After start gnome, main screen went solid white until ESC pressed. Only later did I realize it was supposed to play a movie (sound wasn't configured yet). The movie tells me to press a key that doesn't exist on my keyboard. Resizing firefox is VERY slow - about 2-3 FPS. analog 5.1 test speakers emits no output to subwoofer (the other 5 speakers worked fine) Digital spdif output does not have options for surround sound *at all* (the hardware is known-good under F17). Xrandr settings should be site-wide, not personal (esp, they're ignored for the greeter screen). The greeter is hard to use because you can't keep track of where the cursor is due to the misconfigured screens. Xrandr changes turn the screen to random garbage for a few seconds before reconfiguring. Xrandr display setup app doesn't work right for four monitors - it requires pairs of monitors to be touching, making it difficult to set up. Example: if you change the rotation for the #3 monitor, you can't place it next to the #1 monitor - just next to the #4 monitor (or very far away from it). In my case, #3 was the one to the left of the main monitor, which took a few minutes to do. I've played puzzle games on my phone which were less tricky than using this app. Also, the monitor icons are very tiny - like, 5mm tall on my 30 monitor. At some points, gnome brought up a light-grey-on-lighter-grey themed dialog, which looks like a disabled dialog and is hard to read. I could not find out how to update the system software with gnome3. No notifications popped up, and there were no apps to check for software updates. The software install tool didn't have such an option. I ended up running yum update from a terminal (which did update software). totem segfaults running NET_MAN.ogg (known bug) pymol starts on the wrong monitor - it starts on the far right monitor, not the main monitor. pymol transparency demo doesn't work - and coredumps on exit tuxkart - native screen resolution (2560x1600) is not offered, fullscreen core dumps. hmmm... right side monitor is now a clone of left side monitor after this test. (fixed by switch-user) xonitic corrupts xrandr settings - switches everything to mirrored mode, which means every screen has the same game on it, two of them sideways and all of them distorted. *Not* fixed by switch-user. 0ad isn't playable - the ok button to start the game is drawn on a spot on my desktop that doesn't map to a monitor, so I can't click it. Minecraft won't run. I assume this is due to an interaction between an old gaming library on their part and the use of our java instead of oracle's (i.e. it's a standard setup, not my usual custom one), but the traceback was in the xrandr setup routines. -- All in all, I found F19A's Gnome to be just as hard to use as I recalled in F17 and F18, and support for my four-monitor setup to be just as poor as in the past. Perhaps F19 would run fine on a tablet but it's a non-starter for me without heavy customization. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
On Thu, 2013-04-25 at 23:29 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Not sure how many of these are specific to the Radeon driver, but I kept notes as I went through the whole install/test process, and I'm including them here in case they help anyone. I'm available for more detailed testing if needed. hardware: Intel six-core i7-EE, 24GB RAM, Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R motherboard ATI Radeon HD 6870 with four monitors (one 30, two rotated 20, one 23) My monitor setup is: one 30 2560x1600 in the middle, one 20 1200x1600 (rotated) on each side, and the 1080p way off on the right. Basic install went OK. Welcome dialog is on rightmost monitor, not main monitor (the black Gnome menu is on main monitor). We don't really have any way of knowing what the main monitor is, in a multiple monitor setup. I think X just goes with enumeration order until you specify it somehow... After the screen saver kicked in, it wasn't obvious how to leave the giant clock screen (none of the usual key presses or mouse clicks did anything). Only later was I shown the up-arrow thing but clicking on it did nothing. Eventually I tried swiping it which worked after a few tries. Swiping a clock up a 30 monitor isn't the most natural way to disable a screensaver. That's a GNOME design, I remember finding it a bit confusing at first but now I just hit Esc. The idea is that it's a 'shield' in front of your desktop, which you swipe away. No options in keyboard layout window - it brought up a blank list and made me pick one. Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here? Which 'keyboard layout window' is this? It then asks to create local account despite already doing so in anaconda. Could not skip or re-enter same data. Anaconda should tell you that the account you create *there* is *not* an admin, and that you will be *required* to create yet another account later, which *is* an admin. No, that's not the idea. The integration between anaconda, initial-setup and gnome-initial-setup just isn't entirely done yet. I think if you create a user in anaconda it's an admin user by default, but I'm not 100% sure. It should probably give you the option. After start gnome, main screen went solid white until ESC pressed. Only later did I realize it was supposed to play a movie (sound wasn't configured yet). The movie tells me to press a key that doesn't exist on my keyboard. Clearly, your keyboard is broken. I'd return it. ;) I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. But anyway, this is a general introductory video to GNOME aimed at very new users; if you're geeky enough to have gone out and carefully sourced a keyboard with no Super key, you are not the target audience of the video, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem. Resizing firefox is VERY slow - about 2-3 FPS. Try booting with slub_debug=- . Pre-Beta builds of Fedora use debug kernels, which are much slower than release kernels. analog 5.1 test speakers emits no output to subwoofer (the other 5 speakers worked fine) Digital spdif output does not have options for surround sound *at all* (the hardware is known-good under F17). Where did you look? Xrandr settings should be site-wide, not personal (esp, they're ignored for the greeter screen). The greeter is hard to use because you can't keep track of where the cursor is due to the misconfigured screens. What do you mean by 'xrandr' settings exactly? xrandr is a command line utility that configures RandR on the fly, with no kind of persistence. There are various other ways to configure RandR. You can do it with an X config snippet, you can do it from various desktops. If you're talking about the GNOME control center's Displays tool, I think it's planned to have an 'apply systemwide' option in future, but it's not done yet. Such settings shouldn't be made systemwide by default, as multiple users on a multi-user setting don't necessarily all want the same settings... Xrandr changes turn the screen to random garbage for a few seconds before reconfiguring. That sounds like it might be a driver issue (none of the things above are). The driver devs would probably need more details or a video or something, though. Xrandr display setup app doesn't work right for four monitors - it requires pairs of monitors to be touching, making it difficult to set up. Example: if you change the rotation for the #3 monitor, you can't place it next to the #1 monitor - just next to the #4 monitor (or very far away from it). In my case, #3 was the one to the left of the main monitor, which took a few minutes to do. I've played puzzle games on my phone which were less tricky than using this app. I don't know if there's been much testing with that many monitors. Two is a much more common case. This is not likely driver or Fedora-specific, you're probably best off filing an upstream GNOME bug on it, with more details and maybe a video. Also, the
Re: my impressions of F19A, from Radeon testing day
Welcome dialog is on rightmost monitor, not main monitor (the black Gnome menu is on main monitor). We don't really have any way of knowing what the main monitor is, in a multiple monitor setup. I think X just goes with enumeration order until you specify it somehow... I don't know enough about xrandr to say, but it did figure out which monitor to put the black menu on :-) The odd part was that the welcome dialog and the menu were on different monitors. That's a GNOME design, I remember finding it a bit confusing at first but now I just hit Esc. The idea is that it's a 'shield' in front of your desktop, which you swipe away. I did hit Esc, it didn't work. No options in keyboard layout window - it brought up a blank list and made me pick one. Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here? Which 'keyboard layout window' is this? The first Welcome thing you get after the white intro movie, just before you're asked to create a user account. Maybe it was an input methods window? It was a blank dialog, I had to press next, I couldn't figure out what its purpose was. No, that's not the idea. The integration between anaconda, initial-setup and gnome-initial-setup just isn't entirely done yet. I think if you create a user in anaconda it's an admin user by default, but I'm not 100% sure. It should probably give you the option. IIRC it was the other way around, anaconda's user was the non-admin. Clearly, your keyboard is broken. I'd return it. ;) They didn't have a Windows key in 1984, and I'm NOT returning my Model M :-) I've never quite got the 'being proud of having a keyboard with no Super key' thing. It's a handy key. But anyway, this is a general introductory video to GNOME aimed at very new users; if you're geeky enough to have gone out and carefully sourced a keyboard with no Super key, you are not the target audience of the video, so that doesn't really seem to be a problem. You call it a Super key, but you show a Windows logo (you hide it but it's obvious) in the movie. And you can ask the keyboard how many keys it has. Resizing firefox is VERY slow - about 2-3 FPS. Try booting with slub_debug=- . Pre-Beta builds of Fedora use debug kernels, which are much slower than release kernels. Yeah, I know about that. Nothing else was that slow though. analog 5.1 test speakers emits no output to subwoofer (the other 5 speakers worked fine) Digital spdif output does not have options for surround sound *at all* (the hardware is known-good under F17). Where did you look? Er, the gnome sound settings dialog. I currently (F17) use the pavucontrol app to switch between analog stereo (gaming headset) and digital surround (movies) but I was going for the eat the dogfood option. Xrandr settings should be site-wide, not personal (esp, they're ignored for the greeter screen). The greeter is hard to use because you can't keep track of where the cursor is due to the misconfigured screens. What do you mean by 'xrandr' settings exactly? Layout and rotation of monitors. It seems silly that the physical layout of the monitors should be a per-user setting when the hardware doesn't change between users. Each time I choose switch user all the monitors revert to their unconfigured setting and I have to re-run the Display settings thing for each user. In F17 I manually configured the monitors in xorg.conf so they apply right away and for everyone. tool, I think it's planned to have an 'apply systemwide' option in future, but it's not done yet. That would be a good solution. Such settings shouldn't be made systemwide by default, as multiple users on a multi-user setting don't necessarily all want the same settings... In my case, monitor layout isn't a preference, it's a hardware configuration... Xrandr changes turn the screen to random garbage for a few seconds before reconfiguring. That sounds like it might be a driver issue (none of the things above are). The driver devs would probably need more details or a video or something, though. Yup. Others already reported it as such. I don't know if there's been much testing with that many monitors. Two is a much more common case. This is not likely driver or Fedora-specific, you're probably best off filing an upstream GNOME bug on it, with more details and maybe a video. If I can find time ;-) I believe the app tries to render things so you have enough space to put all the displays in a vertical stack - i.e. it's just giving you enough space for every possible arrangement. It's just that in your case - when you have four monitors, several of which are vertically oriented - this gives kind of a bad result, since the 'vertical stack' configuration would be so tall. Again, I suspect the devs/designers haven't necessarily seen a case like yours, which is kind of an edge case; it may be worth filing this upstream also. Perhaps, but even given the above, they're still WAY too
