Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
Hi Don, 1. No there is no rule. Instead of changing the clef you could use 8va-signs. At the bottom of the upper staff you should not use more than three ledger lines. It gets really kinky collaborating with the lower staff. 2. If I would play this on the piano (or harpsichord or another interchangeable instrument) I would decide whether the phrase belongs to the right or the left hand. But modifying stem direction would be my tool of choice. Even if the LH is at the very bottom of the lower staff, you can direct the stems down. Looks weird, but helps the overview and therefore the music. Whatever helps the music is allowed! Hope I could help you, Philipp (another clarinetist out here) Am 13.05.2012 um 19:03 schrieb Don Simons: > This list is so quiet, I hope there's someone out there. > > I'm making an edition of the lute version of Bach's solo Cello suite #5, so > I can play it on harpsichord. The original is in two staves with bass and > tenor clef. I want to use only bass and treble clefs. The upper line is > centered around middle C and varies up or down by an octave. > > Are there any guidelines for how to assign notes to staves? The options I > can think of are > > 1. Keep the right-hand notes in the upper staff and change the clef there > between bass and treble as needed to avoid too many ledger lines. Is there > any rule or precedent about how many ledger lines is too many? As a former > clarinetist, I can deal with three. The advantage of this is that staff > placement dictates which hand to use to play the notes. Disadvantage is lots > of clef changes. > > 2. Keep the upper clef as treble and let the right-hand notes wander into > the lower staff as appropriate. The problem with this that there's no > immediate clue about which hand to use, when the upper line goes into the > lower staff. I could try to use stem directions for that (up=RH, down-LH). > But when the bass notes are very low and there are no other notes in the > lower staff, it looks stupid to use down-stems there. > > ??? > > --Don Simons > > > --- > TeX-music@tug.org mailing list > If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
2012/5/13 Don Simons : > But when the bass notes are very low and there are no other notes in the > lower staff, it looks stupid to use down-stems there. Isn't the situation completely analogous to SATB chorus music on two staves? Nobody complains about down-stems for the bass part even though they push down the lyrics. --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
Philipp Neukel wrote >2. If I would play this on the piano (or harpsichord or another interchangeable >instrument) I certainly wouldn't exchange my harpsichords for pianos :-) --Don Simons --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
An other possibility is using halfbrackets, for indicating which hand must
be used.
I asked for it on the list (a long time ago) and got this adaption from the
brackets code. I forgot who has sent it, sorry.
This is a pmx example of use:
==
2 1
4 4 4 4
0 0
1 1
20 0.07
bt
./
w100m
%Halfbracket
\\makeatletter\
\\def\halfbracketd#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
\\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
\\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii}\
\\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv\
\\def\halfbracketu#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
\\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
\\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\
\\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv}\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii\
\\makeatother\
b43 c b a8 b /
a84 \loff{\halfbracketd{-10}{12}}\ g f e d e f g //
g15 e f g a4 t a1 t f g a b d c a /
==
---
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Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
Thanks Andre. I forgot to consider halfbrackets. Turns out I invented some
and used them myself in my Pachelbel Canon transcription for keyboard
http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/117176
I'll attach the source for Lute Suite as I have it (if it doesn't post on
the mail list and you want it, send me a personal email). Not ready to post
in IMSLP as there are a few errors. I went for strictly one staff per hand,
so lots of clef changes. Another thing in favor of this approach is that it
frees you to set stem directions based on other considerations, such as the
baroque tendency to avoid more than one notehead on a stem.
--Don
>-Original Message-
>From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On
Behalf Of
>Andre Van Ryckeghem
>Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:11 PM
>To: Werner Icking Music Archive
>Subject: Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
>
>An other possibility is using halfbrackets, for indicating which hand must
be used.
>I asked for it on the list (a long time ago) and got this adaption from
the brackets
>code. I forgot who has sent it, sorry.
>
>This is a pmx example of use:
>
>==
>2 1
>4 4 4 4
>0 0
>1 1
>20 0.07
>
>bt
>./
>w100m
>%Halfbracket
>\\makeatletter\
>\\def\halfbracketd#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
> \\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
> \\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii}\
> \\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv\
>\\def\halfbracketu#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
> \\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
> \\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\
> \\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv}\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii\
>\\makeatother\
>b43 c b a8 b /
>a84 \loff{\halfbracketd{-10}{12}}\ g f e d e f g //
>g15 e f g a4 t a1 t f g a b d c a /
>==
>
>---
>TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
>If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
>http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
bwv995.pmx
Description: Binary data
---
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Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
I've noticed something nicely coincidental about BWV 995. It's for lute and
in the key of g minor, and the upper notes are in tenor clef. The cello
version BWV 1011 is in c minor and all in bass clef. It turns out that each
note has exactly the same position on the staff in the two versions!
Does anyone know of any other typeset version in the original lute key of g
minor? I've only found several guitar arrangements in a minor..
--Don Simons
>-Original Message-
>From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On
Behalf Of
>Don Simons
>Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:38 PM
>To: 'Werner Icking Music Archive'
>Subject: Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
>
>Thanks Andre. I forgot to consider halfbrackets. Turns out I invented some
and used
>them myself in my Pachelbel Canon transcription for keyboard
>http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/117176
>I'll attach the source for Lute Suite as I have it (if it doesn't post on
the mail list and
>you want it, send me a personal email). Not ready to post in IMSLP as there
are a few
>errors. I went for strictly one staff per hand, so lots of clef changes.
Another thing in
>favor of this approach is that it frees you to set stem directions based on
other
>considerations, such as the baroque tendency to avoid more than one
notehead on a
>stem.
>
>--Don
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On
>Behalf Of
>>Andre Van Ryckeghem
>>Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:11 PM
>>To: Werner Icking Music Archive
>>Subject: Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
>>
>>An other possibility is using halfbrackets, for indicating which hand
>>must
>be used.
>>I asked for it on the list (a long time ago) and got this adaption
>>from
>the brackets
>>code. I forgot who has sent it, sorry.
>>
>>This is a pmx example of use:
>>
>>==
>>2 1
>>4 4 4 4
>>0 0
>>1 1
>>20 0.07
>>
>>bt
>>./
>>w100m
>>%Halfbracket
>>\\makeatletter\
>>\\def\halfbracketd#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
>> \\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
>> \\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii}\
>> \\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv\
>>\\def\halfbracketu#1#2{\y@iv#2\internote \advance\y@iv\tw@\internote\
>> \\inhgetn@i#1\relax\pl@base \advance\y@i-1\h@lf\internote\
>> \\raise\y@i\llap{\uplap{\offinterlineskip\
>> \\hbox{\vrule\@height\y@iv}\hbox{\mxsps\@xxvii\
>>\\makeatother\
>>b43 c b a8 b /
>>a84 \loff{\halfbracketd{-10}{12}}\ g f e d e f g //
>>g15 e f g a4 t a1 t f g a b d c a /
>>==
>>
>>---
>>TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
>>If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
>>http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
---
TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
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Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
"Don Simons" schrieb: > Does anyone know of any other typeset version in the original lute key of g > minor? I've only found several guitar arrangements in a minor.. There is an edition of BWV 995 by Karl Scheit (Universal Edition UE 14475) for guitar with a facsimile of the autograph manuscript. Gerd Löbel--- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
For what it's worth (probably not much): I have seen a modern edition of a baroque sonata (I believe for a flute and B.C. -- I haven't seen the autograph, and unfortunately didn't keep the score) in which the problem of choice between too wide ledgers and frequent clef changes is `solved' ( at least for professionals of baroque style): whereever the harpsicord notes tend to go off the staff awkwardly, the clef is changed to a so-called `old C clef' , i.e. a c clef (viola) ON WHATEVER LINE IS APPROPRIATE for that case. That means you have 4 extra choices for a clef! Looks practically unreadable to me, at least for sightreading; but apparently baroque players were quite used to that. Isn't that interesting? ccn. -- .. Prof.Dr. Cornelius C. Noack Inst. f. Theor. Physik FB 1 Universit"at Bremen Phone: +49 (421) 218-62031 Otto-Hahn-Allee Fax : -4869 D - 28334 Bremen home : +49 (421) 34 22 36 Fax: 346 7872 E-mail: noack at itp.uni-bremen.de or ccnoack at mailaps.org WWW-page: www.itp.uni-bremen.de/~noack .. --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
That's more or less the effect of the tenor clef (which is a C clef) in the autograph facsimile of the lute suite BWV 995. But hardly any modern keyboard players, including your truly, are comfortable reading from tenor clef, or any other C clef except maybe alto clef. >-Original Message- >From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of >Cornelius C. Noack >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:30 AM >To: Werner Icking Music Archive >Subject: Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs > >For what it's worth (probably not much): > >I have seen a modern edition of a baroque sonata (I believe for a flute and B.C. -- I >haven't seen the autograph, and unfortunately didn't keep the score) in which the >problem of choice between too wide ledgers and frequent clef changes is `solved' ( at >least for professionals of baroque style): >whereever the harpsicord notes tend to go off the staff awkwardly, the clef is changed >to a so-called `old C clef' , i.e. a c clef (viola) ON WHATEVER LINE IS APPROPRIATE >for that case. That means you have 4 extra choices for a clef! Looks practically >unreadable to me, at least for sightreading; > but apparently baroque players were quite used to that. > >Isn't that interesting? > >ccn. >-- >.. > > Prof.Dr. Cornelius C. Noack > Inst. f. Theor. Physik FB 1 > Universit"at Bremen Phone: +49 (421) 218-62031 > Otto-Hahn-Allee Fax : -4869 > D - 28334 Bremen home : +49 (421) 34 22 36 > Fax: 346 7872 > E-mail: noack at itp.uni-bremen.de or ccnoack at mailaps.org > WWW-page: www.itp.uni-bremen.de/~noack >.. >--- >TeX-music@tug.org mailing list >If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to >http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
>"Gerd Löbel" wrote > >>"Don Simons" schrieb: >> >> Does anyone know of any other typeset version in the original lute key of g >> minor? I've only found several guitar arrangements in a minor.. > >There is an edition of BWV 995 by Karl Scheit (Universal Edition UE 14475) for guitar with a >facsimile of the autograph manuscript. Thats another arrangement for guitar in a minor, of which there are several available for free on the web, e.g., http://www.delcamp.net/pdf/johann_sebastian_bach_bwv_995_suite_prelude_prest o_allemande_courante_sarabande_gavottes_gigue.pdf Also, the facsimile is available for free in IMSLP. >From the googling Ive done about this, Ive learned that even though Bach said BWV 995 was for lute, it has some low Gs which were not available on the normal lutes of the day. Some imply this may have been because J.S. didnt know much about the lute; others that he may have had a special lute built with that low G. In any event theres no problem with the original range when playing on harpsichord, and that was my motivation for typesetting it in the first place. I havent found any specific rationalization for the key of a minor for guitar, but it seems to be settled upon as a kind of modern standard. --Don Simons --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
Isn't there also a theory that Bach had the Lautenwerck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautenwerck in mind? Jim Bailey From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Don Simons Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:29 AM To: 'Werner Icking Music Archive' Subject: Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs >"Gerd Löbel" wrote > >>"Don Simons" schrieb: >> >> Does anyone know of any other typeset version in the original lute key of g >> minor? I've only found several guitar arrangements in a minor.. > >There is an edition of BWV 995 by Karl Scheit (Universal Edition UE 14475) >for guitar with a >facsimile of the autograph manuscript. That's another arrangement for guitar in a minor, of which there are several available for free on the web, e.g., http://www.delcamp.net/pdf/johann_sebastian_bach_bwv_995_suite_prelude_presto_allemande_courante_sarabande_gavottes_gigue.pdf Also, the facsimile is available for free in IMSLP. >From the googling I've done about this, I've learned that even though Bach >said BWV 995 was for lute, it has some low G's which were not available on the >normal lutes of the day. Some imply this may have been because J.S. didn't >know much about the lute; others that he may have had a special lute built >with that low G. In any event there's no problem with the original range when >playing on harpsichord, and that was my motivation for typesetting it in the >first place. I haven't found any specific rationalization for the key of a minor for guitar, but it seems to be settled upon as a kind of modern standard. --Don Simons --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
Re: [Tex-music] Keyboard edition with modern clefs
2012/5/14 Don Simons : > That's more or less the effect of the tenor clef (which is a C clef) in the > autograph facsimile of the lute suite BWV 995. But hardly any modern > keyboard players, including your truly, are comfortable reading from tenor > clef, or any other C clef except maybe alto clef. > In 1977 I regularly attended chamber music bashes, playing the treble recorder. They lasted all of a Sunday. Our host would select something, put the parts out on a stand, and if you strayed into the music room at that moment, he'd point you to a stand. Only very rarely was the part you got appropriate for your own instrument. I had to sight-read at the proper tempo (or nearly so) parts written for viola, bassoon, etc, without of course having the benefit of seeing what notes anybody else would be playing. In several clefs, and with some of the parts (clarinet especially) also requiring transposition. First time round I was grateful to pick up on a unisono bit near the end so I finished together with the others. The rest of that day I was not often so lucky. But you know, after a few more Sundays, I learnt to read music in what I now know to be PMX-style: this note is two up, that one is three down, and I developed a sense of eighteenth-century idiom (all minor baroque and rococo composers are immensely predictable) and I started to enjoy what we were doing, and getting, oh maybe 90% of the notes right. --- TeX-music@tug.org mailing list If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
