Re: [Texascavers] Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio

[Ted Samsel]

Damn. I forgot all about that tome. Is it still in print?
Ted
-Original Message- From: dirt...@comcast.net Sent: Dec 15, 2008 11:47 AM To: Cave Texas Subject: [Texascavers] Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio 

As result of my brief mention on this forum of the Texas Natural Areas Survey in the 1970’s, I have received a gratifying number of personal emails. Thank you all. An excellent overview of most of the study areas, in the form of a very nice coffee-table book is Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio, photographs by Reagan Bradshaw, text by Griffin Smith, Jr., 1983, Texas Monthly Press. It summarizes most of the study areas quite beautifully and shows their locations on a map of Texas. That book is one of the products of the NAS that helped shape (and is still helping shape) public and legislative opinion in favor of the acquisition and preservation of some very special Texas places. That included at least one very significant karst feature: Devil’s Sinkhole.

Curiously, not all our study areas are included – Enchanted Rock is one of those omitted. At any rate, check out a copy and I think you will be impressed not only with the beauty described therein but with the scope of the NAS program.

I take credit only for managing, coordinating, and assuring logistical support for the scientific field studies that provided the technical basis for the rest. MANY others devoted countless hours and personal expense to the political and acquisition parts of the process.

Dirtdoc

http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/

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[Texascavers] Re:Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio

[dirtdoc]

I don't know, Ted.  In fact, I have no idea how many were actually sold.  They 
were handed out quite liberally to the leg and others, which was a major part 
of the idea.  Inquire of Texas Monthly.  I'm certain you can check out a copy 
through interlibrary loan, though.

DirtDoc

-- Original message -- 
From: Ted Samsel tbsam...@infionline.net 

Damn. I forgot all about that tome. Is it still in print?
Ted

Re: [Texascavers] Re:Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio

[Joe Ranzau]

Paid 8 bucks including shipping through Amazon's used book stores this  
morning.


Joe

j...@oztotl.com

Sent while mobile

On Dec 16, 2008, at 9:39 AM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:

I don't know, Ted.  In fact, I have no idea how many were actually  
sold.  They were handed out quite liberally to the leg and others,  
which was a major part of the idea.  Inquire of Texas Monthly.  I'm  
certain you can check out a copy through interlibrary loan, though.


DirtDoc

-- Original message --
From: Ted Samsel tbsam...@infionline.net
Damn. I forgot all about that tome. Is it still in print?

Ted


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RE: [Texascavers] Re:Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio

[Louise Power]

I, too, went onto Amazon's used books. Saw one on there for $3.30. Here's the 
scoop on that one:
 




Price + Shipping
Condition
Seller Information



$3.30 
+ $3.99shipping

LOW ITEM PRICE 

Used - Good 



Seller:  betterworldbooks_ 

Rating:97% positive over the past 12 months (183314 ratings.) 474687 lifetime 
ratings.

Shipping: In Stock. Ships from IN, United States Expedited shipping available 
International shipping available See Shipping Rates 


Comments:   Shows some signs of wear, and may have some markings on the inside. 
100% Money Back Guarantee. Shipped to over one million happy customers! Your 
purchase benefits world literacy! 
 
I bought one, too, for $14 that was a first edition with cover and in better 
condition (if you care about those things). They had some for considerably more.
 
Louise
 From: jran...@gmail.com To: dirt...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 
 09:43:41 -0600 CC: tbsam...@infionline.net; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re:Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio  Paid 
 8 bucks including shipping through Amazon's used book stores this  morning. 
  Joe  j...@oztotl.com  Sent while mobile  On Dec 16, 2008, at 9:39 AM, 
 dirt...@comcast.net wrote:   I don't know, Ted. In fact, I have no idea 
 how many were actually   sold. They were handed out quite liberally to the 
 leg and others,   which was a major part of the idea. Inquire of Texas 
 Monthly. I'm   certain you can check out a copy through interlibrary loan, 
 though.   DirtDoc   -- Original message --  
 From: Ted Samsel tbsam...@infionline.net  Damn. I forgot all about that 
 tome. Is it still in print?   Ted  
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 our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
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 texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 

[Texascavers] Fw: [CascadeGrotto] Underground city

[J. LaRue Thomas]

So very interesting...from a friend in the Cascade Grotto. Jacqui
 
Saw this over on the WVG list. The English is a bit rough it is mostly
understandable. Very cool underground city.

http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/derinkuyu-la-misteriosa-ciudad-subterranea-
de-turquia/en/

Aaron

RE: [Texascavers] Fw: [CascadeGrotto] Underground city

[Louise Power]

That's a great article. The Cappadocians were among the earliest Christians in 
the world and their churches which have been carved into the rocks are well 
known worldwide. Thanks for passing it on.

From: jlrbills@sonoratx.netTo: Texascavers@texascavers.comDate: Tue, 16 Dec 
2008 07:47:25 -0600Subject: [Texascavers] Fw: [CascadeGrotto] Underground city


So very interesting...from a friend in the Cascade Grotto. Jacqui
 
Saw this over on the WVG list. The English is a bit rough it is 
mostlyunderstandable. Very cool underground 
city.http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/derinkuyu-la-misteriosa-ciudad-subterranea-de-turquia/en/Aaron
 
 

[Texascavers] OT - another cheap LED flashlight

[David]

CVS Pharmacy has a new flashlight worth talking about.

At only $ 9.99 plus tax, this tiny light has 21 LED's.

http://i14.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/06/6a/e54e_1.JPG

I only bought it to compare the light pattern of the 21 LED's versus
the 16 in the Walgreens model that I reported a few day's ago.

The light pattern of the 21 is slightly better, but only around the edges.

This light's main feature is its tiny size, easily fitting in a shirt-pocket
sideways.

It is not constructed as well as the Walgreen's one, but
would still probably survive a few caving trips, as long as you didn't
dunk it under water. It does have tiny o-rings, so it will keep out
some moisture.

This light could possibly mounted on the front of a helmet, although
it might look kind of weird. Still, it would be much smaller than
an old Justrite Carbide lamp mounted there.

This light seems best suited for cooking around camp.


On a related note,

Let's say it cost CVS $ .50 to ship flashlight from factory in China
to store in Fort Bend County. Then subtract CVS profit of say, $ .50,
and a cost for the machining of the aluminum body at $ 2.00, and
vendor profit of $ .50, and cost
of aluminum material, and switch at say $ 2.00.That leaves about
$ 4.50 to buy the 21 LED's and make the circuits.  I don't see how
anybody along the chain is making enough money to justify their
part in the process. And I am probably leaving off some cost like
bribes along the way.I used to work for a manufacturing
company, and this
flashlight would have cost about $ 50 to make there, if not more, plus
they didn't
have anybody that knew enough about small electronics to make the LED
piece, so that
would have to be ordered from somewhere, further adding to the cost.

David Locklear

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[NMCAVER] Message for Mike Bilbo

[Bill Bentley-Webmail]

Please contact me off list

Thanks,
Bill


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[Texascavers] Paleoclimatology from speleothems mirrors human history :

[JerryAtkin]

 
 
 
Ancient cave rocks reveal impact of climate change

by _Stephanie  Hemphill_ 
(http://minnesota.publicradio.org/about/people/mpr_people_display.php?aut_id=29)
 , Minnesota Public Radio
December 15, 2008
Anyone who's ever ventured into a cave knows the  feeling -- like you're 
going back in time. Two University of Minnesota  researchers have literally 
gone 
back in time, in a cave in western China. They  came out knowing that changes 
in the global climate can bring about great  prosperity or destroy entire 
civilizations. Their study of cave rocks, thousands  of years old, might tell 
us 
something about the climate change we're  experiencing today. 
 
Minneapolis, Minn. — In a small office in an old lab on the U  of M campus, 
Hai Cheng sorts through a cardboard box full of stalagmites from  all over the 
world.  
Those are from Peru, and those dark-colored samples are from  Turkey. This 
yellow one is from Ukraine. I collected that last summer.  
Hai Cheng grew up in China, but now he's a research scientist  in the 
Department of Geology and Geophysics at the University of Minnesota.  
 
 
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/12/11/20081211_haichengsample_33.jpg)
 
His stalagmites are six-inches to a foot long and just two or  three inches 
wide. They look a little like agates. They've been split in half  length-wise 
to expose wavy lines -- they're growth rings, like in a tree. Some  of them are 
almost 1,000,000 years old. These ancient rocks are nature's time  capsule, 
showing the ebb and flow of climate on the earth. 

Hai Cheng collaborates with colleagues in China, and with  Lawrence Edwards, 
who is the George and Orpha Gibson Chair of Earth Systems  Science and 
Distinguished McKnight University Professor at the University.  
They've been refining techniques to wring secrets from these  rocks. They 
measure uranium and thorium to count the years as the stalagmite  built up from 
the floor of the cave. They can tell which years were wet and  which were dry, 
based on different types of oxygen found in the rock.  
They plotted the drought years and the wet years on a graph  that parallels 
periods in Chinese history.  
If you start at around 700 A.D., basically you have  above-average in terms 
of wetness, Larry Edwards explains. And then you have  gradual falling, so 
it's gradually getting drier, and this is all within the  Tang Dynasty.  
The Tang Dynasty was a period of great power, when big armies  controlled 
trade along the Silk Road.  
 
 
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/12/11/20081211_larryedwards_33.jpg) 
But in the 800's, it got very dry, and in 906, following  years of disastrous 
harvests, the Tang Dynasty fell. 

Around 1,000 A.D.the monsoons returned and there was enough  water to grow 
rice in much of the country. This was the time of the next  successful dynasty, 
the Song Dynasty.  
And it's the first time rice became the staple of the Chinese  diet. Of 
course rice cultivation requires water, says Edwards. It was kind of  a 
golden 
age in China: the population doubled.  
That was from about 1000 A.D. to 1300.  
Then, droughts returned, and twice more they coincided with the  fall of 
dynasties: the Yuan in the 1400's and the Ming around 1600.  
In China, the view is that the emperor, the dynasty, has a  mandate from 
heaven to continue on, and the dynasties end when the perception is  that 
they've 
lost that mandate, and part of the mandate is climatic conditions,  says 
Edwards.  
After all, if an emperor can't feed his people, what's he doing  on the 
throne?  
 
 (http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/12/11/20081211_inside_3_33.jpg) 
But it's not just China that experienced these cyclical  monsoons and 
droughts. Hai Cheng and Larry Edwards came up with such an accurate  weather 
history 
that they could link it to what was happening in places as far  away as 
Mexico. 

The Mayan civilization -- also suffering a drought -- fell at  almost exactly 
the same time as the Tang Dynasty.  
So here the Mayans are, and the Tang Dynasty Chinese, and  they're fighting 
against the same natural phenomenon, says Edwards. They don't  even know 
each other.  
On opposite sides of the world, peoples' lives collapsed when  the rains 
didn't come.  
And later, at the same time as the generous monsoons during the  Song 
Dynasty, Europe and the North Atlantic were experiencing what scientists  call 
the 
Medieval Warm Period -- from about 800 to about 1300 A.D.  
 
 
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/12/11/20081211_spectrometer_33.jpg) 
And so virtually at the same time of this expansion of rice  cultivation in 
China, the Vikings settled southern Greenland, and they were able  to because 
it was relatively warm. 

During the drought of the 1400's that contributed to the fall  of the Yuan 
Dynasty, Europe was experiencing the Little Ice Age, that forced the  Vikings 
out of Greenland.  
Their research shows an ancient natural pattern in the earth's  

texascavers Digest 17 Dec 2008 04:57:00 -0000 Issue 670

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 17 Dec 2008 04:57:00 - Issue 670

Topics (messages 9694 through 9709):

Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio
9694 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
9702 by: Ted Samsel

Re: Thomas - UT Grotto Newbie Herder
9695 by: Mhoon, Trish
9700 by: Diana Tomchick

Golondrinas Christmas
9696 by: Association for Mexican Cave Studies

Article about CBSP and Gorman
9697 by: Travis
9698 by: Jim Kennedy

Free ICS Registration for a TCMA member-- Apply Now!
9699 by: Linda Palit

Caver Christmas ideas
9701 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

Re: [CascadeGrotto] Underground city
9703 by: J. LaRue Thomas
9706 by: Louise Power

Re:Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio
9704 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
9705 by: Joe Ranzau
9707 by: Louise Power

OT - another cheap LED flashlight
9708 by: David

Paleoclimatology from speleothems mirrors human history :
9709 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com

Administrivia:

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--
---BeginMessage---
As result of my brief mention on this forum of the Texas Natural Areas Survey 
in the 1970’s, I have received a gratifying number of personal emails.  Thank 
you all.  An excellent overview of most of the study areas, in the form of a 
very nice coffee-table book is Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio, 
photographs by Reagan Bradshaw, text by Griffin Smith, Jr., 1983, Texas Monthly 
Press.  It summarizes most of the study areas quite beautifully and shows their 
locations on a map of Texas.  That book is one of the products of the NAS that 
helped shape (and is still helping shape) public and legislative opinion in 
favor of the acquisition and preservation of some very special Texas places.  
That included at least one very significant karst feature:  Devil’s Sinkhole.
 
Curiously, not all our study areas are included – Enchanted Rock is one of 
those omitted.  At any rate, check out a copy and I think you will be impressed 
not only with the beauty described therein but with the scope of the NAS 
program.
 
I take credit only for managing, coordinating, and assuring logistical support 
for the scientific field studies that provided the technical basis for the 
rest.  MANY others devoted countless hours and personal expense to the 
political and acquisition parts of the process.
 
Dirtdoc---End Message---
---BeginMessage---


Damn. I forgot all about that tome. Is it still in print?
Ted
-Original Message- From: dirt...@comcast.net Sent: Dec 15, 2008 11:47 AM To: Cave Texas Subject: [Texascavers] Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio 

As result of my brief mention on this forum of the Texas Natural Areas Survey in the 1970’s, I have received a gratifying number of personal emails. Thank you all. An excellent overview of most of the study areas, in the form of a very nice coffee-table book is Forgotten Texas: A Wilderness Portfolio, photographs by Reagan Bradshaw, text by Griffin Smith, Jr., 1983, Texas Monthly Press. It summarizes most of the study areas quite beautifully and shows their locations on a map of Texas. That book is one of the products of the NAS that helped shape (and is still helping shape) public and legislative opinion in favor of the acquisition and preservation of some very special Texas places. That included at least one very significant karst feature: Devil’s Sinkhole.

Curiously, not all our study areas are included – Enchanted Rock is one of those omitted. At any rate, check out a copy and I think you will be impressed not only with the beauty described therein but with the scope of the NAS program.

I take credit only for managing, coordinating, and assuring logistical support for the scientific field studies that provided the technical basis for the rest. MANY others devoted countless hours and personal expense to the political and acquisition parts of the process.

Dirtdoc

http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/
---End Message---
---BeginMessage---
I never get involved in these discussions, but I enjoy reading the
entries and learning more about caving.  However, this time I have
something to say.  
I was brand new to the DFW Grotto two years ago.  My very first cave
trip was to Honey Creek Cave in January of 06.  Bill Steele assured me
it was a fine trip for a beginner.  Oh Bill.  I thought I was going to
die.  But Bill, Diana and the rest of the group were so nice to me, it
made the weekend worth every doubt I had about caving.  I rode down and
back with them, and I had never even met them before.  They made me feel
at ease almost immediately.  Their group (as well as Kurt and the guys
at 

[ot_caving] The Iraqi Shoe Story

[David]

Anybody got any comments on the Shoe Story?

What punishment should the guy get?

Did you hear that he wasn't one of the Shite's, but instead
was one of the Shoe-nies?

David

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Re: [ot_caving] The Iraqi Shoe Story

[Scott Nicholson]

A size 14 would've been a hit.
 Scott Nicholson 



- Original Message 
From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com
To: o...@texascavers.com o...@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:46:01 PM
Subject: [ot_caving] The Iraqi Shoe Story

Anybody got any comments on the Shoe Story?

What punishment should the guy get?

Did you hear that he wasn't one of the Shite's, but instead
was one of the Shoe-nies?

David

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[ot_caving] a cave book from 1956

[David]

I was in an old dusty bookstore this week. I have been there many
times before and never
found much of interest.  But on this visit, I had some time to kill.

I searched every nook and cranny and found a cave book from 1956 in
nearly mint condition
for only $ 4.50.

The Big Cave by Abijah Long

The Early History of the Exploration of Carlsbad Caverns.

http://www.bookfinders.org/rel/v2_viewupc.php?storenr=361upc=B000WOQNLE

David Locklear

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RE: [ot_caving] a cave book from 1956

[Louise Power]

Had a similar experience a few years ago.
 
In February 1937, Jim White began selling his book on Carlsbad Caverns 
(ghostwritten by Frank Ernest Nicholson) in the cave. He later set up shop in 
White City. Several old timers told me they remembered seeing him sit out on 
the porch in front of the store signing books. 
 
Back in the late 1990s when I was still living in Portland, OR, I found an 
autographed copy of this book in an antique store. I don't remember the year 
this particular copy was printed, but I think I paid a dollar for it. It's in 
pretty good condition except that apparently it was exposed to moisture at one 
time and the signature has a tiny bit of run on it. It's still crisp and clear, 
though, and you can definitely tell whose signature it is.
 
Louise Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:13:47 -0600 From: dlocklea...@gmail.com To: 
o...@texascavers.com; bmixon...@austin.rr.com Subject: [ot_caving] a cave book 
from 1956  I was in an old dusty bookstore this week. I have been there many 
times before and never found much of interest. But on this visit, I had some 
time to kill.  I searched every nook and cranny and found a cave book from 
1956 in nearly mint condition for only $ 4.50.  The Big Cave by Abijah 
Long  The Early History of the Exploration of Carlsbad Caverns.  
http://www.bookfinders.org/rel/v2_viewupc.php?storenr=361upc=B000WOQNLE  
David Locklear  
- Give 
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ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: 
ot-h...@texascavers.com 

[Texascavers] Caver Christmas ideas

[speleosteele]

Personally, I don't think there's been a cave filmmaker anywhere close in 
excellence to Britain's Sid Perou. Sid now has his films on DVD. Here's a list.

Bill 


SID PEROU - FILMS AVAILABLE ON DVD
PRICES INCLUDE POSTAGE AND PACKI 

GAPING GILL (27 MINS)  EACH £10
Lost river of gaping Gill (1970)
Breakthrough (1983)

100 Years of Exploration 1997SET OF THREE 
£25

REALM OF DARKNESS (1980-1983 5x52 MINS)  EACH £12 
Hidden Depths of Mexico .   
   
Hollow Mountain of Mulu
Forbidden Secrets of the Cigalere
Drowned River of Dracos
Otter Hole;

CAVE DIVING STORY (1987-88 - Each DVD 2 half hours)EACH DVD £12
 Parts 12
 Parts 34

BENEATH THE PENNINES (1976-7 -5x 27 MINS)  EACH £10
Pippikin Pot
Lancaster Hole  
  FULL SET OF 5 £40
White Scar
Dow Cave
Alum Pot

CAVE RESCUE
Sunday at Sunset Pot (BW) (1967 - 27 MINS)£10
Hard Decisions at Sleets Gill (40 mins - 2006 RE-EDIT)  £15
(Includes £7 donation to UWFRA)

ROCK ATHLETE (1983-3x27 MINS) 3 Films on a a single DVD £10
In Search of New Summits
Llvesey
New Extremes

BALLOON OVER YORKSHIRE (1984 - 27 MINS) EACH £10
Mansion to Moorland
Search for the Summit Wind

MICROLIGHT AIRCRAFT
Rally in the Sky (1985 - 27MINS)
 £10
Flight for Life  (1995 - 90MINS)£15

CAVING COMEDY
Caving is a Serious Business  ( Three films on a single DVD)   £10
Off White and the Seven Dwarfs
You Bet – it’s a great idea!

QUALITY ON ALL OLDER FILMS SUBJECT TO BEST QUALITY COPIES AVAILABLE
AT THIS TIME.

EMAIL sidpe...@btinternet.com



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[ot_caving] OT - Adam Sandler the comedian

[David]

Did anybody catch Adam Sandler's music performance this week on late night TV
where he sang a Neil Young song and played guitar.

I was quite impressed.

I hope his new movie about the stories is good.

On a related note,

I am very disappointed in the reviews I saw for the new Keanu Reeves movie,
the Earth Stood Still.   This is one of my favorite movies, and I
think a remake
needs to be better than the original or otherwise it is a waste of
everybody's time
and money.

David

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FW: [ot_caving] OT - Adam Sandler the comedian

[Jenny Holt]

I actually caught that last night on Letterman. I think it was pretty good, 
better than I would have guessed, but of course I'm a Neil Young fan from way 
back.  See it below, if I managed to get the link.  If I failed, just copy and 
paste the URL into the address field. 
Jenny  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MgpT22xYPU




 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:43:59 -0600
 From: dlocklea...@gmail.com
 To: o...@texascavers.com; em...@sbcglobal.net; sidca...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [ot_caving] OT - Adam Sandler the comedian
 
 Did anybody catch Adam Sandler's music performance this week on late night TV
 where he sang a Neil Young song and played guitar.
 
 I was quite impressed.
 
 I hope his new movie about the stories is good.
 
 On a related note,
 
 I am very disappointed in the reviews I saw for the new Keanu Reeves movie,
 the Earth Stood Still.   This is one of my favorite movies, and I
 think a remake
 needs to be better than the original or otherwise it is a waste of
 everybody's time
 and money.
 
 David
 
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Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your Hotmail® 
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