[Texascavers] The 2 big Guatemala piping features
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1289/4658048974_56e70036a6_b.jpg On June 2nd, I posted something saying I guessed the 2 holes ( piping features ) in Guatemala were 1800 meters apart. Someone has published a map with a scale. http://www.jorgeandres.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hundimientos.jpg According to that map, it is more like 1300 meters. The city supposedly has storm sewer drainage tunnels about 3 meters in diameter, and are supposedly old and in disrepair. There does not seem to be any real news about this hole, or what they did about the old hole 3 years ago. For example, there is hardly a mention of it on the web-site: http://www.earthmagazine.org/ Here is an illustration showing how the holes formed: http://www.tairra.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Guatemala-agujero-grande.jpg On a related note, check this out: http://hooniverse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Reuters-Landslide.jpg - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] guate
Anybody who just instinctively hit the delete button for Locklear's latest post about the sinkholes in Guatemala made a mistake. The links he provided (except an obvious one) provide a lot of interesting photos, maps, and graphics offering comparisons and info about the 2 sinkholes not seen up to now. Go have a look at it. --Ediger
[Texascavers] Today's the day the subject of Deep Caving will be on Jon Stewart's The Daily Show
http://forum.thedailyshow.com/tds/board/message?board.id=Episode_Discussions_2010thread.id=5879 - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.
I remember former Colorado Bend State Park ranger Ed Young once suggested that the air was best in the park caves in the coldest part of winter and the hottest part of summer. I don't think that the suggested that it was a definitive pattern, but he did lead the crawling tours our there all times a year, so his experience may count for something. Dale From: SS back2scool...@hotmail.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, June 14, 2010 11:25:32 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves. In this stifling heat the air in the cave is much cooler and so convection ceases allowing the degassing CO2 to build up unabated. Caves that actively take water also receive a fresh dose of organic debris with the spring rains and that material sitting down there also degasses all summer adding to the mix. You’ll know when you experience CO2. It becomes hard to breathe, you feel hot, and you become winded easily. As CO2 builds up in the blood Acidosis begins to set in bringing on a horrendous headache. Pretty much your not going to want to hang out. Try Lemmon’s Ranch Cave next time we have a Colorado bend project. From:Philip L Moss [mailto:philipm...@juno.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 6:22 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves. In my experience, CO2 and radon, or more accurately radon daughters, concentrate together. Both tend to be higher in caves during the summer if the caves do not have a significant chimney effect wind. As a rule, if CO2 is thought to be an issue occasionally in a cave, go in the winter and the colder outside the better. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:00:23 -0700 Louise Power writes: When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP in the late 70s, our cave tech Kay Rohde, checked the CO2 and the radon every day. In the summertime when visitation was high, CO2 was high (big surprise!). When CO2 was high, radon was high. snip Louise $13/Month Car Insurance? Insurance deal just passed now allows you to get car insurance for $13 GoGetAutoInsurance.com
[Texascavers] Re: Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.
Honey Creek Cave periodically has high CO2, especially in certain passages. Although not always true, the air was typically better in winter than in summer. Mark Minton At 10:11 AM 6/15/2010, Dale Barnard wrote: I remember former Colorado Bend State Park ranger Ed Young once suggested that the air was best in the park caves in the coldest part of winter and the hottest part of summer. I don't think that the suggested that it was a definitive pattern, but he did lead the crawling tours our there all times a year, so his experience may count for something. Dale From: SS back2scool...@hotmail.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Mon, June 14, 2010 11:25:32 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves. In this stifling heat the air in the cave is much cooler and so convection ceases allowing the degassing CO2 to build up unabated. Caves that actively take water also receive a fresh dose of organic debris with the spring rains and that material sitting down there also degasses all summer adding to the mix. Youâll know when you experience CO2. It becomes hard to breathe, you feel hot, and you become winded easily. As CO2 builds up in the blood Acidosis begins to set in bringing on a horrendous headache. Pretty much your not going to want to hang out. Try Lemmonâs Ranch Cave next time we have a Colorado bend project. From: Philip L Moss [mailto:philipm...@juno.com] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 6:22 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves. In my experience, CO2 and radon, or more accurately radon daughters, concentrate together. Both tend to be higher in caves during the summer if the caves do not have a significant chimney effect wind. As a rule, if CO2 is thought to be an issue occasionally in a cave, go in the winter and the colder outside the better. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] FW: This is just downright mean!!
From today's GovExec.com Feds get time off to care for domestic partners, but not pets By Amelia Gruber agru...@govexec.com June 14, 2010 Federal employees can now officially take leave to care for ill domestic partners. In a final rule published in the Federal Register on Monday, the Office of Personnel Management clarified that partners of the same and the opposite sex count as family members for the purposes of sick leave, funeral leave, voluntary leave transfer, voluntary leave banks and emergency leave transfer. Parents of domestic partners also fall under the definition of family members and immediate relatives, according to the personnel agency. When implemented, these regulations will help ensure that agencies consider the needs of a diverse workforce and provide employees with the broadest support possible to help them balance their work, personal and family obligations, the rule stated. The regulation takes effect on July 14. It comes in response to a June 2009 presidential directive to extend same-sex domestic partners of federal employees similar benefits as spouses, where legally possible. President Obama reiterated his commitment in a memorandum earlier this month. OPM noted it received 74 comments from agency officials, labor unions, professional groups and individuals on the draft wording released last fall. Most supported the rule change, with several noting it would mean they could keep their jobs and still care for loved ones. Nine people opposed the change on the grounds it hurt the institution of marriage and would confer a right to a special interest group saddling taxpayers with additional costs. In response, OPM said the regulation simply ensures agencies consistently provide existing rights. These changes do not reflect an additional benefit provided to a 'special interest group' or a fundamental change in the government's human resources policy, the rule stated. Agency officials rejected requests to add others such as nieces and nephews to the list of qualified relatives, noting the examples of family members are not intended to be exhaustive, but rather illustrative. They also denied requests for more documentation of domestic partnerships, noting the same rules should apply to all types of relatives and officials have the right to seek more information if they suspect abuse of the policy. OPM nixed a suggestion to include pets in the definition of family members, noting, while we agree that a person may have a close bond with his or her pet, employees still must use annual leave or leave without pay to stay home with sick pets. Louise Power Finance Tech Medford District Office 541-618-2211
[Texascavers] Brehmer Cave
I am posting this so that I don't step on anybody's turf. I hope to soon post an update about the status of Brehmer Cave. At the moment, I only know that Melitta Stahl's granddaughter owns the 2 caves.I was told by the former manager of the ranch today ( who I found on Facebook ), that the cave is closed due to all the houses nearby. I think I know which granddaughter inherited the cave, but I sent them both Facebook messages in hopes of a reply. Melitta Stahl passed away in April of 2008, and I think that was mentioned then. But her daughter became the contact person, in the late 80's. ( I haven't found her yet ) For those of you who have not been to these 2 caves.The smaller of the 2, is a crawl in entrance full of harvestman, over lots of debris ( dirt, rocks, sticks, guano, etc. ) Immediately you are in a small room with enough room to take a group photo around some nice formations. Then there is a short crawl to a smaller room that often had ringtail cats. The larger cave has a nice entrance that you can stoop walk through to a good size room with a man-made skylight ( or possibly an enlarged sinkhole entrance ). This was a guano mine, and I was told it had historical importance. The skylight is fenced off and lots of brush going around it. The back of the big room is, or was full of bats. Beyond the big room, is a small passage leading to a small room with some old grafitti. There is a tiny lead in the cave, but you would have to be small and skinny to push it.It is in the entrance going the opposite direction from the rest of the cave. I have never seen a map of Little Brehmer Cave, but the old map of Brehmer Cave looked accurate enough to describe the passage that I went into a few times. I seem to recall an old-timer telling me there was passage that was not on that map. After doing all that and righting the above I found the following link showing a caving trip just 4 years ago. ( I don't remember the cave being that pretty ). http://www.oztotl.com/Pages/2006/Brehmers.html And it is listed as the 124th longest cave. Hopefully, to be continued. David Locklear Ref: http://www.caves.org/section/asha/saltpeter-survey.pdf http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tsslongcaves.htm - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags)
I've always had good luck getting information on tagged caves in Purificación from Peter Sprouse. However, and this is one of my beefs with the system, it is not always true that a cave has been explored just because it has a tag on it. I saw this in person one time when a group of us were ridgewalking and tagging entrances. We explored what we could, at least enough to know if they were worth returning to, but we didn't have vertical gear with us. When we found a pit entrance, it got tagged but of course wasn't entered. At least one such cave was not returned to on that trip and I don't know if it was ever returned to. So there could be tagged but still virgin caves out there. Another reason I don't like tags is that they discourage people from exploring, precisely because they figure the cave is already known. At it's worst, tags express a form of ownership over a cave, implicitly telling those who come along later that the cave is already taken. Of course new passages are frequently found in known caves, so a second look is always appropriate. One of the best examples of this that I know of occurred in Huautla. I had found a cave on a ridgewalk and explored it, not thinking it amounted to much. We never used tags there. A few years later someone else found the same entrance and also explored. But he found an obscure crawl I had overlooked. That crawl led to one of the best collections of pots and other artifacts we ever found in Huautla. Had I tagged the cave on my initial recon, there's a good chance the second discoverer would not have bothered going in. That would have been a loss to all. Mark Minton At 12:18 PM 6/14/2010, Don Cooper wrote: And another thing about tags Traipsing about the woods around Conrad Castillo - my little group came across a cave at the base of a cliff. It looked like a good one. You could see it drop off to the left and there were stals on the ceiling. It had a tag, so its assumed its already been all accounted for. We're looking for new caves after all. However - who's holding the index? All we had was a little number and there was no information about these tags at the field house. Best we could do was to write down the number and perhaps get Peter Sprouse to look it up for us when we got back to Austin A system. Indeed. Not a real good solution in that time and place. Of course these days, the entire index and all the maps could be put on someone's iPhone. I digress... -WaV On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Projects like PEP used to mark cave entrances with metal tags. This was intended to serve as a record that a cave was known and recorded in a database. It was not reliable after a few years, though, because the tags could get overgrown with moss, etc. and be difficult to find or fall off due to frost fracturing or other mechanical processes. On large entrances one wouldn't necessarily even know where to look. Where would you tag Infiernillo? Nowadays GPS is a much more reliable method of keeping track of known caves and their locations, although it can also have problems if the data quality is poor or the datum is unknown. Mark Minton Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags)
There appear to be a small number of tagged caves between 281 and I-10 directly off of 1604 in the northern San Antonio area. Does anyone know if these have been explored? Some of them appear to have fresh piles of dirt/rocks at the entrances. Leslie Bell --- On Tue, 6/15/10, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: From: Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net Subject: [Texascavers] Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags) To: Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tuesday, June 15, 2010, 12:10 PM I've always had good luck getting information on tagged caves in Purificación from Peter Sprouse. However, and this is one of my beefs with the system, it is not always true that a cave has been explored just because it has a tag on it. I saw this in person one time when a group of us were ridgewalking and tagging entrances. We explored what we could, at least enough to know if they were worth returning to, but we didn't have vertical gear with us. When we found a pit entrance, it got tagged but of course wasn't entered. At least one such cave was not returned to on that trip and I don't know if it was ever returned to. So there could be tagged but still virgin caves out there. Another reason I don't like tags is that they discourage people from exploring, precisely because they figure the cave is already known. At it's worst, tags express a form of ownership over a cave, implicitly telling those who come along later that the cave is already taken. Of course new passages are frequently found in known caves, so a second look is always appropriate. One of the best examples of this that I know of occurred in Huautla. I had found a cave on a ridgewalk and explored it, not thinking it amounted to much. We never used tags there. A few years later someone else found the same entrance and also explored. But he found an obscure crawl I had overlooked. That crawl led to one of the best collections of pots and other artifacts we ever found in Huautla. Had I tagged the cave on my initial recon, there's a good chance the second discoverer would not have bothered going in. That would have been a loss to all. Mark Minton At 12:18 PM 6/14/2010, Don Cooper wrote: And another thing about tags Traipsing about the woods around Conrad Castillo - my little group came across a cave at the base of a cliff. It looked like a good one. You could see it drop off to the left and there were stals on the ceiling. It had a tag, so its assumed its already been all accounted for. We're looking for new caves after all. However - who's holding the index? All we had was a little number and there was no information about these tags at the field house. Best we could do was to write down the number and perhaps get Peter Sprouse to look it up for us when we got back to Austin A system. Indeed. Not a real good solution in that time and place. Of course these days, the entire index and all the maps could be put on someone's iPhone. I digress... -WaV On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Projects like PEP used to mark cave entrances with metal tags. This was intended to serve as a record that a cave was known and recorded in a database. It was not reliable after a few years, though, because the tags could get overgrown with moss, etc. and be difficult to find or fall off due to frost fracturing or other mechanical processes. On large entrances one wouldn't necessarily even know where to look. Where would you tag Infiernillo? Nowadays GPS is a much more reliable method of keeping track of known caves and their locations, although it can also have problems if the data quality is poor or the datum is unknown. Mark Minton Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags)
The current policy at PEP is to only tag caves that are surveyed. That doesn't mean that the survey has been completed, of course. I don't necessarily agree with that policy especially now that GPS is readily available and the tag can serve mostly as a backup/field marker and to show that the cave is known. It is easier to locate the file information on a numbered cave tag than from GPS coordinates because many of the tagged caves have never been GPSed. --Ediger On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: I've always had good luck getting information on tagged caves in Purificación from Peter Sprouse. However, and this is one of my beefs with the system, it is not always true that a cave has been explored just because it has a tag on it. I saw this in person one time when a group of us were ridgewalking and tagging entrances. We explored what we could, at least enough to know if they were worth returning to, but we didn't have vertical gear with us. When we found a pit entrance, it got tagged but of course wasn't entered. At least one such cave was not returned to on that trip and I don't know if it was ever returned to. So there could be tagged but still virgin caves out there.
Re: [Texascavers] Re: a cave question (Cave Entrance Tags)
Just groussing ... color-coded tags for: a) explored; b) needs more exploration; c) unexplored ... nah, too much work ... let the next caver that stumbles across that opening decide and have some fun ... ~F~ I've always had good luck getting information on tagged caves in Purificación from Peter Sprouse. However, and this is one of my beefs with the system, it is not always true that a cave has been explored just because it has a tag on it. I saw this in person one time when a group of us were ridgewalking and tagging entrances. We explored what we could, at least enough to know if they were worth returning to, but we didn't have vertical gear with us. When we found a pit entrance, it got tagged but of course wasn't entered. At least one such cave was not returned to on that trip and I don't know if it was ever returned to. So there could be tagged but still virgin caves out there. Another reason I don't like tags is that they discourage people from exploring, precisely because they figure the cave is already known. At it's worst, tags express a form of ownership over a cave, implicitly telling those who come along later that the cave is already taken. Of course new passages are frequently found in known caves, so a second look is always appropriate. One of the best examples of this that I know of occurred in Huautla. I had found a cave on a ridgewalk and explored it, not thinking it amounted to much. We never used tags there. A few years later someone else found the same entrance and also explored. But he found an obscure crawl I had overlooked. That crawl led to one of the best collections of pots and other artifacts we ever found in Huautla. Had I tagged the cave on my initial recon, there's a good chance the second discoverer would not have bothered going in. That would have been a loss to all. Mark Minton At 12:18 PM 6/14/2010, Don Cooper wrote: And another thing about tags Traipsing about the woods around Conrad Castillo - my little group came across a cave at the base of a cliff. It looked like a good one. You could see it drop off to the left and there were stals on the ceiling. It had a tag, so its assumed its already been all accounted for. We're looking for new caves after all. However - who's holding the index? All we had was a little number and there was no information about these tags at the field house. Best we could do was to write down the number and perhaps get Peter Sprouse to look it up for us when we got back to Austin A system. Indeed. Not a real good solution in that time and place. Of course these days, the entire index and all the maps could be put on someone's iPhone. I digress... -WaV On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Projects like PEP used to mark cave entrances with metal tags. This was intended to serve as a record that a cave was known and recorded in a database. It was not reliable after a few years, though, because the tags could get overgrown with moss, etc. and be difficult to find or fall off due to frost fracturing or other mechanical processes. On large entrances one wouldn't necessarily even know where to look. Where would you tag Infiernillo? Nowadays GPS is a much more reliable method of keeping track of known caves and their locations, although it can also have problems if the data quality is poor or the datum is unknown. Mark Minton Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
