RE: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

[Fritz Holt]

The layout of a well done generic brochure should last for years without the 
need for revision if membership amounts are not mentioned, only the address to 
get an application.

Fritz


From: Linda Palit [mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:02 PM
To: Carl Kunath
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

Some things are worth doing again. Some aren't.

Via clumsy I-thumbs

On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:26 PM, "Carl Kunath" 
mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net>> wrote:
Such things have been done in the past.  Abilene Grotto and Dallas Ft. Worth 
Grotto spearheaded those efforts.

See 50 Years of Texas Caving, pages 188, 268, and 275.

===Carl Kunath
- Original Message -
From: Bill Bentley
To: Texas Cavers

Some well made brochures would be nice to hand out to new cavers at grotto 
meetings.
Just a thought.
Bill





From:  
mark.al...@l-3com.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:30 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: Ask Not What You Can Do For The TSA...


But, what can the TSA do for you!

RE: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

[Fritz Holt]

The layout of a well done generic brochure should last for years without the 
need for revision if membership amounts are not mentioned, only the address to 
get an application.

Fritz


From: Linda Palit [mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:02 PM
To: Carl Kunath
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

Some things are worth doing again. Some aren't.

Via clumsy I-thumbs

On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:26 PM, "Carl Kunath" 
mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net>> wrote:
Such things have been done in the past.  Abilene Grotto and Dallas Ft. Worth 
Grotto spearheaded those efforts.

See 50 Years of Texas Caving, pages 188, 268, and 275.

===Carl Kunath
- Original Message -
From: Bill Bentley
To: Texas Cavers

Some well made brochures would be nice to hand out to new cavers at grotto 
meetings.
Just a thought.
Bill





From:  
mark.al...@l-3com.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:30 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: Ask Not What You Can Do For The TSA...


But, what can the TSA do for you!

RE: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

[Fritz Holt]

The layout of a well done generic brochure should last for years without the 
need for revision if membership amounts are not mentioned, only the address to 
get an application.

Fritz


From: Linda Palit [mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:02 PM
To: Carl Kunath
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caving Brochures

Some things are worth doing again. Some aren't.

Via clumsy I-thumbs

On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:26 PM, "Carl Kunath" 
mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net>> wrote:
Such things have been done in the past.  Abilene Grotto and Dallas Ft. Worth 
Grotto spearheaded those efforts.

See 50 Years of Texas Caving, pages 188, 268, and 275.

===Carl Kunath
- Original Message -
From: Bill Bentley
To: Texas Cavers

Some well made brochures would be nice to hand out to new cavers at grotto 
meetings.
Just a thought.
Bill





From:  
mark.al...@l-3com.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:30 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: Ask Not What You Can Do For The TSA...


But, what can the TSA do for you!

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[caverarch]

Well, Werner Herzog is certainly famous in his own right as a movie director, 
most recently for Grizzly Man:


Director. Writer. Producer. Has studied history, literature and theatre, but 
hasn't finished it. Founded his own production company in 1963. Has staged 
several operas, besides others in Bayreuth, Germany, and at the Milan Scala in 
Italy. Herzog has won numerous national and international awards for his films


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001348/


He's one of them there European awtoor- (auteur)-type film-makers who does 
everything on most of his projects.


Roger Moore





-Original Message-
From: Stefan Creaser 
To: Geary Schindel 
Cc: Geary Schindel ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :


The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> 
wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 
along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston Rebuffat 
pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he 
found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 
the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 
- has led to an ugly 
spat
 
between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 
of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 
suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art 
in south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the archaeological 
world", 
says Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt 
of the University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be 
that 
old. The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the 
paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths a

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[caverarch]

Well, Werner Herzog is certainly famous in his own right as a movie director, 
most recently for Grizzly Man:


Director. Writer. Producer. Has studied history, literature and theatre, but 
hasn't finished it. Founded his own production company in 1963. Has staged 
several operas, besides others in Bayreuth, Germany, and at the Milan Scala in 
Italy. Herzog has won numerous national and international awards for his films


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001348/


He's one of them there European awtoor- (auteur)-type film-makers who does 
everything on most of his projects.


Roger Moore





-Original Message-
From: Stefan Creaser 
To: Geary Schindel 
Cc: Geary Schindel ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :


The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> 
wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 
along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston Rebuffat 
pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he 
found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 
the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 
- has led to an ugly 
spat
 
between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 
of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 
suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art 
in south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the archaeological 
world", 
says Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt 
of the University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be 
that 
old. The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the 
paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths a

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[caverarch]

Well, Werner Herzog is certainly famous in his own right as a movie director, 
most recently for Grizzly Man:


Director. Writer. Producer. Has studied history, literature and theatre, but 
hasn't finished it. Founded his own production company in 1963. Has staged 
several operas, besides others in Bayreuth, Germany, and at the Milan Scala in 
Italy. Herzog has won numerous national and international awards for his films


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001348/


He's one of them there European awtoor- (auteur)-type film-makers who does 
everything on most of his projects.


Roger Moore





-Original Message-
From: Stefan Creaser 
To: Geary Schindel 
Cc: Geary Schindel ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :


The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> 
wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 
along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston Rebuffat 
pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he 
found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 
the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 
- has led to an ugly 
spat
 
between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 
of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 
suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art 
in south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the archaeological 
world", 
says Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt 
of the University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be 
that 
old. The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the 
paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths a

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 -0000 Issue 1292

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 - Issue 1292

Topics (messages 17620 through 17625):

Re: NSS Directors Election Deadline Nearing
17620 by: Joe Ranzau

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :
17621 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
17623 by: Geary Schindel
17624 by: Geary Schindel
17625 by: Stefan Creaser

UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20
17622 by: Gary Franklin

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
There is a fellow Texan running for the BOG!  John Moses out of El paso by way 
of Houston. 



Joe

On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:34 PM, R D Milhollin  wrote:

> The deadline for mailing your ballot for the NSS Director Election is 
> nearing. Ballots must be postmarked by **May 1st.** If you haven't voted yet, 
> go find that ballot that is buried on your desk or in a pile of stuff-to-do 
> and mail it in. Your vote matters.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Allan Weberg
> NSS Nominating Committee Chairman
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art 
19 April 2011 by _Michael Marshall_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=Michael+Marshall)  
 
 
EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric  artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow  
passage, he found himself in a _hidden cavern_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 , the walls of which 
were _covered with paintings of animals_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 . 
But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner  Herzog's recent 
documentary film _Cave of Forgotten Dreams_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/03/ancient-paintings-unlocked-from-history.html)
  - has 
led to an _ugly spat_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3631-doubt-cast-on-age-of-oldest-human-art.html)
  between archaeologists. Could the bones 
of cave bears  settle the debate? 
_Within a year_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020281.000-passions-run-high-over-french-cave-art.html)
  of Chauvet's discovery, _radiocarbon 
dating_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14619820.400-ancient-masters-put-painting-in-perspective.html)
  suggested the images were between 30,000 
and  32,000 years old, making them almost twice the age of the famous 
_Lascaux cave art_ (http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/?lng=en#/en/00.xml)  in 
south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the  archaeological world", 
says 
Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in  Salisbury, UK. 
Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in  western Europe 
do we know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But _Paul Pettitt_ 
(http://www.sheffield.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/pettitt.html)  of the University 
of Sheffield,  UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. The 
dating study doesn't  stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to  mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he 
says, 
would be like claiming to  have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman 
villa". 
Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that  seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old  (Nature, _DOI: 
10.1038/35097160_ (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/35097160) ), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were  unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still  chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by  changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the 
paintings  (Antiquity, vol 77, p 134). 
To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the  Institute of 
Biology and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned  to the 
remains of cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave  bears 
(Ursus spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of  the last 
ice age. 
The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and  Elalouf 
argues that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived  in the 
area. To pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38  
samples of cave bear remains in the Chauvet cave and  
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7462-dna-of-ancient-bears-successfully-sequenced.html)
 . 
They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar,  
suggesting the cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore  
vulnerable. 
Radiocarbon dating showed the samp

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 -0000 Issue 1292

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 - Issue 1292

Topics (messages 17620 through 17625):

Re: NSS Directors Election Deadline Nearing
17620 by: Joe Ranzau

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :
17621 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
17623 by: Geary Schindel
17624 by: Geary Schindel
17625 by: Stefan Creaser

UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20
17622 by: Gary Franklin

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
There is a fellow Texan running for the BOG!  John Moses out of El paso by way 
of Houston. 



Joe

On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:34 PM, R D Milhollin  wrote:

> The deadline for mailing your ballot for the NSS Director Election is 
> nearing. Ballots must be postmarked by **May 1st.** If you haven't voted yet, 
> go find that ballot that is buried on your desk or in a pile of stuff-to-do 
> and mail it in. Your vote matters.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Allan Weberg
> NSS Nominating Committee Chairman
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art 
19 April 2011 by _Michael Marshall_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=Michael+Marshall)  
 
 
EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric  artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow  
passage, he found himself in a _hidden cavern_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 , the walls of which 
were _covered with paintings of animals_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 . 
But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner  Herzog's recent 
documentary film _Cave of Forgotten Dreams_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/03/ancient-paintings-unlocked-from-history.html)
  - has 
led to an _ugly spat_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3631-doubt-cast-on-age-of-oldest-human-art.html)
  between archaeologists. Could the bones 
of cave bears  settle the debate? 
_Within a year_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020281.000-passions-run-high-over-french-cave-art.html)
  of Chauvet's discovery, _radiocarbon 
dating_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14619820.400-ancient-masters-put-painting-in-perspective.html)
  suggested the images were between 30,000 
and  32,000 years old, making them almost twice the age of the famous 
_Lascaux cave art_ (http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/?lng=en#/en/00.xml)  in 
south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the  archaeological world", 
says 
Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in  Salisbury, UK. 
Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in  western Europe 
do we know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But _Paul Pettitt_ 
(http://www.sheffield.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/pettitt.html)  of the University 
of Sheffield,  UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. The 
dating study doesn't  stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to  mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he 
says, 
would be like claiming to  have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman 
villa". 
Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that  seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old  (Nature, _DOI: 
10.1038/35097160_ (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/35097160) ), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were  unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still  chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by  changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the 
paintings  (Antiquity, vol 77, p 134). 
To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the  Institute of 
Biology and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned  to the 
remains of cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave  bears 
(Ursus spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of  the last 
ice age. 
The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and  Elalouf 
argues that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived  in the 
area. To pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38  
samples of cave bear remains in the Chauvet cave and  
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7462-dna-of-ancient-bears-successfully-sequenced.html)
 . 
They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar,  
suggesting the cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore  
vulnerable. 
Radiocarbon dating showed the samp

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 -0000 Issue 1292

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 20 Apr 2011 13:55:07 - Issue 1292

Topics (messages 17620 through 17625):

Re: NSS Directors Election Deadline Nearing
17620 by: Joe Ranzau

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :
17621 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
17623 by: Geary Schindel
17624 by: Geary Schindel
17625 by: Stefan Creaser

UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20
17622 by: Gary Franklin

Administrivia:

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--
--- Begin Message ---
There is a fellow Texan running for the BOG!  John Moses out of El paso by way 
of Houston. 



Joe

On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:34 PM, R D Milhollin  wrote:

> The deadline for mailing your ballot for the NSS Director Election is 
> nearing. Ballots must be postmarked by **May 1st.** If you haven't voted yet, 
> go find that ballot that is buried on your desk or in a pile of stuff-to-do 
> and mail it in. Your vote matters.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Allan Weberg
> NSS Nominating Committee Chairman
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art 
19 April 2011 by _Michael Marshall_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=Michael+Marshall)  
 
 
EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric  artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow  
passage, he found himself in a _hidden cavern_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 , the walls of which 
were _covered with paintings of animals_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519621.400-cave-art-work-of-great-talent.html)
 . 
But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner  Herzog's recent 
documentary film _Cave of Forgotten Dreams_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/03/ancient-paintings-unlocked-from-history.html)
  - has 
led to an _ugly spat_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3631-doubt-cast-on-age-of-oldest-human-art.html)
  between archaeologists. Could the bones 
of cave bears  settle the debate? 
_Within a year_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020281.000-passions-run-high-over-french-cave-art.html)
  of Chauvet's discovery, _radiocarbon 
dating_ 
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14619820.400-ancient-masters-put-painting-in-perspective.html)
  suggested the images were between 30,000 
and  32,000 years old, making them almost twice the age of the famous 
_Lascaux cave art_ (http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/?lng=en#/en/00.xml)  in 
south-west France (see map). The result "polarised the  archaeological world", 
says 
Andrew Lawson, a freelance archaeologist based in  Salisbury, UK. 
Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in  western Europe 
do we know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But _Paul Pettitt_ 
(http://www.sheffield.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/pettitt.html)  of the University 
of Sheffield,  UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. The 
dating study doesn't  stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to  mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he 
says, 
would be like claiming to  have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman 
villa". 
Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that  seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old  (Nature, _DOI: 
10.1038/35097160_ (http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/35097160) ), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were  unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still  chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by  changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the 
paintings  (Antiquity, vol 77, p 134). 
To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the  Institute of 
Biology and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned  to the 
remains of cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave  bears 
(Ursus spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of  the last 
ice age. 
The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and  Elalouf 
argues that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived  in the 
area. To pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38  
samples of cave bear remains in the Chauvet cave and  
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7462-dna-of-ancient-bears-successfully-sequenced.html)
 . 
They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar,  
suggesting the cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore  
vulnerable. 
Radiocarbon dating showed the samp

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Stefan Creaser]

The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.20

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Stefan Creaser]

The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.20

Re: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Stefan Creaser]

The book Herzog wrote about that expedition, Annapurna, is a must-read for any 
explorer.

Stefan

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2011, at 8:58 AM, "Geary Schindel" 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote:

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; 
 
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR’s Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To:  
Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.20

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

Sorry,

It was Maurice Herzog who climbed Annapurna, the first summit over 8,000 meters 
to be climbed and the 10th highest mountain in the world.  He climbed it in 
1950 along with a couple of other folks including a Frenchman named Gaston 
Rebuffat pronounced Gastly Rabittfat in Texan.

Geary

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:50 AM
To: jerryat...@aol.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf. Michael 
Knapp
 of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, who also studies cave 
bears, says he has no doubts about the DNA analysis.

While we do not know exactly when cave bears became 
extinct, all reliably dated 
remains in Europe are at least 24,000 years old, says Martina 
Pacher of the Commission of Quaternary 
Research in V

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf. Michael 
Knapp
 of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, who also studies cave 
bears, says he has no doubts about the DNA analysis.

While we do not know exactly when cave bears became 
extinct, all reliably dated 
remains in Europe are at least 24,000 years old, says Martina 
Pacher of the Commission of Quaternary 
Research in V

RE: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

[Geary Schindel]

On NPR's Fresh Air program, to air today in San Antonio at 11 am, Werner Herzog 
will be interviewed about his new film and about the Cave of Forgotten Dreams.  
I wonder if this is the same Warner Herzog who is/was the famous mountain 
climber.

Geary

From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 11:19 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art :

Bear DNA is clue to age of Chauvet cave art
19 April 2011 by Michael 
Marshall


EXPLORING a gorge in south-east France in 1994 for prehistoric artefacts, 
Jean-Marie Chauvet hit the jackpot. After squeezing through a narrow passage, 
he found himself in a hidden 
cavern,
 the walls of which were covered with paintings of 
animals.

But dating the beautiful images - which featured in Werner Herzog's recent 
documentary film Cave of Forgotten 
Dreams
 - has led to an ugly 
spat
 between archaeologists. Could the bones of cave bears settle the debate?

Within a 
year
 of Chauvet's discovery, radiocarbon 
dating
 suggested the images were between 30,000 and 32,000 years old, making them 
almost twice the age of the famous Lascaux cave 
art in south-west France (see 
map). The result "polarised the archaeological world", says Andrew Lawson, a 
freelance archaeologist based in Salisbury, UK.

Lawson accepts the radiocarbon findings. "Nowhere else in western Europe do we 
know of sophisticated art this early," he says. But Paul 
Pettitt of the 
University of Sheffield, UK, is adamant that the paintings cannot be that old. 
The dating study doesn't stand up, he claims, insisting that the paintings' 
advanced style is enough to mark them as recent. To suggest otherwise, he says, 
would be like claiming to have found "a Renaissance painting in a Roman villa".

Despite a comprehensive radiocarbon study published in 2001 that seemed to 
confirm that the paintings were indeed 30,000 years old (Nature, DOI: 
10.1038/35097160), Pettitt and his 
colleagues were unconvinced. Two years later they argued that the cave walls 
were still chemically active, so the radiocarbon dating could have been thrown 
out by changes over the millennia to the pigments used to create the paintings 
(Antiquity, vol 77, p 134).

To try to settle the controversy, Jean-Marc Elalouf of the Institute of Biology 
and Technology in Saclay, France, and his team have turned to the remains of 
cave bears. Along with mammoths and other huge mammals, cave bears (Ursus 
spelaeus) dominated the European landscape until the end of the last ice age.

The Chauvet cave contains several depictions of cave bears, and Elalouf argues 
that these must have been painted while the bears still thrived in the area. To 
pin down when the bears disappeared, his team collected 38 samples of cave bear 
remains in the Chauvet cave and .

They found that almost all the samples were genetically similar, suggesting the 
cave bear population was small, isolated and therefore vulnerable. Radiocarbon 
dating showed the samples were all between 37,000 and 29,000 years old, hinting 
that by the end of that period they were extinct, at least locally. Samples 
from a nearby cave, Deux-Ouvertures, gave similar results (Journal of 
Archaeological Science, DOI: 
10.1016/j.jas.2011.03.033).

Given the age of the cave bear remains, "it is clear that the paintings are 
very ancient", says Elalouf. Michael 
Knapp
 of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, who also studies cave 
bears, says he has no doubts about the DNA analysis.

While we do not know exactly when cave bears became 
extinct, all reliably dated 
remains in Europe are at least 24,000 years old, says Martina 
Pacher of the Commission of Quaternary 
Research in V

[Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20

[Gary Franklin]

You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting
tonight April 20, 2011



The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.

University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall

NOTE:  THE ROOM NUMBER CHANGE to 2.48 PAI

http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html



Pete Strickland will be presenting the Program of the evening that will
share some of his caving adventures.  Pete has been an active caver for
decades and has visited a wealth of cave systems.  Come out to visit with
friends from the extended Austin Texas caver community.



For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.orgAll of our information including officer contact info,
trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to
beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.



Before the meetings, we sometimes meet at Sao Paulo  www.saopaulos.net  for
a happy hour special.  This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting.  Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East.  www.posse-east.com



The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about
your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  Contact
Gary



Sincerely,



Gary Franklin

UT Grotto Vice Chair & Program Organizer

v...@utgrotto.org



Pete Strickland 

[Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20

[Gary Franklin]

You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting
tonight April 20, 2011



The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.

University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall

NOTE:  THE ROOM NUMBER CHANGE to 2.48 PAI

http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html



Pete Strickland will be presenting the Program of the evening that will
share some of his caving adventures.  Pete has been an active caver for
decades and has visited a wealth of cave systems.  Come out to visit with
friends from the extended Austin Texas caver community.



For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.orgAll of our information including officer contact info,
trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to
beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.



Before the meetings, we sometimes meet at Sao Paulo  www.saopaulos.net  for
a happy hour special.  This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting.  Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East.  www.posse-east.com



The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about
your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  Contact
Gary



Sincerely,



Gary Franklin

UT Grotto Vice Chair & Program Organizer

v...@utgrotto.org



Pete Strickland 

[Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting TONIGHT - Wed 4/20

[Gary Franklin]

You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting
tonight April 20, 2011



The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.

University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall

NOTE:  THE ROOM NUMBER CHANGE to 2.48 PAI

http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html



Pete Strickland will be presenting the Program of the evening that will
share some of his caving adventures.  Pete has been an active caver for
decades and has visited a wealth of cave systems.  Come out to visit with
friends from the extended Austin Texas caver community.



For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.orgAll of our information including officer contact info,
trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to
beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.



Before the meetings, we sometimes meet at Sao Paulo  www.saopaulos.net  for
a happy hour special.  This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting.  Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East.  www.posse-east.com



The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about
your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  Contact
Gary



Sincerely,



Gary Franklin

UT Grotto Vice Chair & Program Organizer

v...@utgrotto.org



Pete Strickland