Re: [Texascavers] old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande
As a kid (1954-1960), I lived south of Uvalde. I recall going to Del Rio once with my folks and seeing panoramic shots of the old Pecos Railroad High Bridge. Anyone know if these photos are still around?May 29, 2011 11:50:41 PM, lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: Don et al., Here are some links about the tunnel(s): http://www.nps.gov/amis/historyculture/tunnelstation.htm http://www.ohranger.com/amistad/history This one has a photo of one of the tunnels, partially submerged: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19369790@N02/3481220482/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fw: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
- Original Message - From: Robert B To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
[Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 -0000 Issue 1324
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 - Issue 1324 Topics (messages 17932 through 17944): Speleomusic competition: UIS Anthem 17932 by: George Veni 17933 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17934 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net Bat flight on the Rio Grande 17935 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17936 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17937 by: Don Cooper 17938 by: Joe Ranzau 17939 by: Bill Bentley 17940 by: Don Arburn old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande 17941 by: Logan McNatt 17942 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave 17943 by: Robert B Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave 17944 by: Speleosteele.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends, The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below. George Veni UIS Vice-President of Administration UIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competition 1. Entries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in length 2. All entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler). 3. Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable. 4. The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish. 5. Entries must be original and not based on any existing music. 6. Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. 7. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style. 8. Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology. The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted. There is no financial award, except the honour of composing the UIS anthem. Initial contact to: Ian Ellis Chandler. UIS Arts and Letters Commission artca...@yahoo.es Telephone: 0034 942619903 (Spain) *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 413-383-2276 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Like EUROVISION?http://www.eurovision.tv/page/newshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXouSYabDigMay 28, 2011 04:09:48 PM, gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote:Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends,The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below.George VeniUIS Vice-President of AdministrationUIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competitionEntries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in lengthAll entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler).Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable.The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish.Entries must be original and not based on any existing music.Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style.Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology.The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted.There is no financial award,
[Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future. Mark Minton At 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote: There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
Mark, I just heard they got him out of the cave. Not sure of the cause of the accident but Sinking Cove Cave is a classic multi-drop pull down trip. Mostly short drops with a nice exit into a truck passage in the bottom of the cave. The Boulder entrance is the one that he entered and includes a 30 foot entrance down climb, a 50 foot rappel, another 53 foot rappel, a 30 foot down climb, a 20 foot rappel and another 20 foot rappel to about 100 feet of stream crawl that is pretty tight. It appears that the accident happened at the last 20 foot drop. Gerald Moni got stuck in the crawl below the last 20 foot drop a couple of years ago and had to be hammered out. I think it would be very difficult to bring someone though this area in a stretcher. Taking someone in a sked up the drops and through some tight crawls would also be very difficult. Then you have to carry them down the mountain. I'm sure this was no easy rescue but the cave rescue teams in the TAG area are the best and most experienced in the US. I understand the guy who was injured was on the Mt. Thor rappels and has a lot of experience. It will probably take a couple of days to hear the details. Geary - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I don't know the details of what happened in the recent accident in Tennessee, but I can second what Mark said about the importance of looking down frequently and rappelling slowly enough so you can stop on short notice if necessary. This is good advice even when you think you are sure that every rope rigged in the vicinity is long enough to reach the bottom.Back when I was a caver in Colorado, before moving to Austin, there was a seriousrappellingaccident that came very close to being twice as bad, by seriously injuring, or perhaps even killing, a second caver. On the way down, one experienced caver accidently cut his rappel rope, resulting in a long fall with serious injuries to himself. (Yes, cutting his rope was another one on those preventable mistakes you don't normally expect from an experienced caver.) At the top, another, somewhat less experienced, caver had been waiting his turn to rappel and was in a location where he couldn't see what had just happened below. When he saw the rope go slack, he assumed that the first caver was safely off rope at the bottom. There hadn't been any "off rope" voice signal, of course, but the caver above probably thought that the wind and weather conditions were simply too noisy for the signal to be heard, so he rigged in and began rappelling, with no thought to the possibility that the rope might no longer reach bottom. Fortunately, he did look down and was able to stop before rappelling off the end, but it was a very close call. I understand that he stopped only about a foot or two above where the rope had been cut, and he had to be helped back to the top by other cavers, since he didn't have ascending gear accessible to switch over by himself. Yes, indeed, sometimes it does pay to look where you are going!Rod-Original Message-From: Mark Minton Sent: May 30, 2011 8:49 PMTo: Texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future.Mark MintonAt 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote:There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.Please reply to mmin...@caver.netPermanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org -Visit our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comFor additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande
As a kid (1954-1960), I lived south of Uvalde. I recall going to Del Rio once with my folks and seeing panoramic shots of the old Pecos Railroad High Bridge. Anyone know if these photos are still around?May 29, 2011 11:50:41 PM, lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: Don et al., Here are some links about the tunnel(s): http://www.nps.gov/amis/historyculture/tunnelstation.htm http://www.ohranger.com/amistad/history This one has a photo of one of the tunnels, partially submerged: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19369790@N02/3481220482/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fw: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
- Original Message - From: Robert B To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
[Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 -0000 Issue 1324
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 - Issue 1324 Topics (messages 17932 through 17944): Speleomusic competition: UIS Anthem 17932 by: George Veni 17933 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17934 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net Bat flight on the Rio Grande 17935 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17936 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17937 by: Don Cooper 17938 by: Joe Ranzau 17939 by: Bill Bentley 17940 by: Don Arburn old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande 17941 by: Logan McNatt 17942 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave 17943 by: Robert B Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave 17944 by: Speleosteele.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends, The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below. George Veni UIS Vice-President of Administration UIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competition 1. Entries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in length 2. All entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler). 3. Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable. 4. The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish. 5. Entries must be original and not based on any existing music. 6. Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. 7. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style. 8. Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology. The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted. There is no financial award, except the honour of composing the UIS anthem. Initial contact to: Ian Ellis Chandler. UIS Arts and Letters Commission artca...@yahoo.es Telephone: 0034 942619903 (Spain) *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 413-383-2276 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Like EUROVISION?http://www.eurovision.tv/page/newshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXouSYabDigMay 28, 2011 04:09:48 PM, gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote:Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends,The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below.George VeniUIS Vice-President of AdministrationUIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competitionEntries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in lengthAll entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler).Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable.The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish.Entries must be original and not based on any existing music.Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style.Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology.The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted.There is no financial award,
[Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future. Mark Minton At 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote: There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
Mark, I just heard they got him out of the cave. Not sure of the cause of the accident but Sinking Cove Cave is a classic multi-drop pull down trip. Mostly short drops with a nice exit into a truck passage in the bottom of the cave. The Boulder entrance is the one that he entered and includes a 30 foot entrance down climb, a 50 foot rappel, another 53 foot rappel, a 30 foot down climb, a 20 foot rappel and another 20 foot rappel to about 100 feet of stream crawl that is pretty tight. It appears that the accident happened at the last 20 foot drop. Gerald Moni got stuck in the crawl below the last 20 foot drop a couple of years ago and had to be hammered out. I think it would be very difficult to bring someone though this area in a stretcher. Taking someone in a sked up the drops and through some tight crawls would also be very difficult. Then you have to carry them down the mountain. I'm sure this was no easy rescue but the cave rescue teams in the TAG area are the best and most experienced in the US. I understand the guy who was injured was on the Mt. Thor rappels and has a lot of experience. It will probably take a couple of days to hear the details. Geary - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I don't know the details of what happened in the recent accident in Tennessee, but I can second what Mark said about the importance of looking down frequently and rappelling slowly enough so you can stop on short notice if necessary. This is good advice even when you think you are sure that every rope rigged in the vicinity is long enough to reach the bottom.Back when I was a caver in Colorado, before moving to Austin, there was a seriousrappellingaccident that came very close to being twice as bad, by seriously injuring, or perhaps even killing, a second caver. On the way down, one experienced caver accidently cut his rappel rope, resulting in a long fall with serious injuries to himself. (Yes, cutting his rope was another one on those preventable mistakes you don't normally expect from an experienced caver.) At the top, another, somewhat less experienced, caver had been waiting his turn to rappel and was in a location where he couldn't see what had just happened below. When he saw the rope go slack, he assumed that the first caver was safely off rope at the bottom. There hadn't been any "off rope" voice signal, of course, but the caver above probably thought that the wind and weather conditions were simply too noisy for the signal to be heard, so he rigged in and began rappelling, with no thought to the possibility that the rope might no longer reach bottom. Fortunately, he did look down and was able to stop before rappelling off the end, but it was a very close call. I understand that he stopped only about a foot or two above where the rope had been cut, and he had to be helped back to the top by other cavers, since he didn't have ascending gear accessible to switch over by himself. Yes, indeed, sometimes it does pay to look where you are going!Rod-Original Message-From: Mark Minton Sent: May 30, 2011 8:49 PMTo: Texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future.Mark MintonAt 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote:There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.Please reply to mmin...@caver.netPermanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org -Visit our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comFor additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande
As a kid (1954-1960), I lived south of Uvalde. I recall going to Del Rio once with my folks and seeing panoramic shots of the old Pecos Railroad High Bridge. Anyone know if these photos are still around?May 29, 2011 11:50:41 PM, lmcn...@austin.rr.com wrote: Don et al., Here are some links about the tunnel(s): http://www.nps.gov/amis/historyculture/tunnelstation.htm http://www.ohranger.com/amistad/history This one has a photo of one of the tunnels, partially submerged: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19369790@N02/3481220482/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fw: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
- Original Message - From: Robert B To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: [Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] WNS
Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$ are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by
Re: [SWR] WNS
Robert, I didn't speak for you or other scientists not on the CDB petition. I spoke about the petition that Aaron posted from the CBD. You yourself know the value of scientific method. If you find offense at this, then please provide proof that WNS is spread by humans, using scientific method. That is all I ask. Carl. P.S. My chairs don't have arms.and I'm still a caver. I didn't attend the regional because I just got back from a 5,000 mile solo motorcycle ride to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada... On May 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Robert Grubbs wrote: Please keep in mind that there are also extemist armchair cavers who like to rant for the sake of argument and rightously think they have something intelligent to say. Carl Pagano does not speak for this scientist. Dr. Robert. K. Grubbs Ph.D. On Sat May 28th, 2011 9:25 AM MDT Carl Pagano wrote: Hi Bill, and thanks. Steve mentioned a cleaned up version. Here it is. Feel free to use it as a petition, as I mentioned to Steve. Carl... Having read the petition: Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method, including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below. The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject. First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves, which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures. As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is invalid. To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves. If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong, with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data. Carl Pagano.Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote: To all; Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions. Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well. Bill - Original Message - From: Carl Pagano To: s...@caver.net Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS To all: Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the caves. Why is it, that these scientists cannot understand this? Bats move, just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven theories. Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, Wake Up, and Smell The Guano. This does include
[Texascavers] from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave
from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/tennessee.cave.rescue/index.html?hpt=T2
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 -0000 Issue 1324
texascavers Digest 30 May 2011 23:16:04 - Issue 1324 Topics (messages 17932 through 17944): Speleomusic competition: UIS Anthem 17932 by: George Veni 17933 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17934 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net Bat flight on the Rio Grande 17935 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17936 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 17937 by: Don Cooper 17938 by: Joe Ranzau 17939 by: Bill Bentley 17940 by: Don Arburn old railroad tunnels on the Rio Grande 17941 by: Logan McNatt 17942 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net from CNN - Crews work to rescue injured man from Tennessee cave 17943 by: Robert B Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave 17944 by: Speleosteele.aol.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends, The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below. George Veni UIS Vice-President of Administration UIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competition 1. Entries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in length 2. All entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler). 3. Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable. 4. The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish. 5. Entries must be original and not based on any existing music. 6. Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. 7. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style. 8. Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology. The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted. There is no financial award, except the honour of composing the UIS anthem. Initial contact to: Ian Ellis Chandler. UIS Arts and Letters Commission artca...@yahoo.es Telephone: 0034 942619903 (Spain) *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 413-383-2276 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Like EUROVISION?http://www.eurovision.tv/page/newshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXouSYabDigMay 28, 2011 04:09:48 PM, gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote:Dear Speleo-Musicians, Artists, and Friends,The Arts and Letters Commission of the International Union of Speleology (UIS) is organizing a competition to create an anthem for the UIS. The details are below. Please forward this message to anyone or any list you believe may be interested. For more information, contact Ian Ellis Chandler below.George VeniUIS Vice-President of AdministrationUIS ANTHEM: Conditions of competitionEntries to be between 60 to 90 seconds in lengthAll entries must be provided digitally to the UIS Bureau through the UIS Arts and Letters Commission (Ian Ellis Chandler).Entries to be received by Arts and Letters Commission by end January, 2012. They will be considered by the Bureau summer meeting 2012. The Bureau retains the option not to select any entry as suitable.The digital entry will not include lyrics. Lyrics can be attached, and a digital audio version can be presented. Lyrics can be in any of the following languages of the UIS: English, French, German, Italian, Russian or Spanish.Entries must be original and not based on any existing music.Entries should be universal and not in a style generally associated with any country. The style should capable of appealing for many years and not based on any particular modern style.Entries should try to capture the spirit of speleology.The winning entry (if one is selected) will be revealed at the Opening Ceremony of the 2013 ICS in Brno, Czech Republic, as the UIS flag is hoisted.There is no financial award,
[Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future. Mark Minton At 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote: There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
Mark, I just heard they got him out of the cave. Not sure of the cause of the accident but Sinking Cove Cave is a classic multi-drop pull down trip. Mostly short drops with a nice exit into a truck passage in the bottom of the cave. The Boulder entrance is the one that he entered and includes a 30 foot entrance down climb, a 50 foot rappel, another 53 foot rappel, a 30 foot down climb, a 20 foot rappel and another 20 foot rappel to about 100 feet of stream crawl that is pretty tight. It appears that the accident happened at the last 20 foot drop. Gerald Moni got stuck in the crawl below the last 20 foot drop a couple of years ago and had to be hammered out. I think it would be very difficult to bring someone though this area in a stretcher. Taking someone in a sked up the drops and through some tight crawls would also be very difficult. Then you have to carry them down the mountain. I'm sure this was no easy rescue but the cave rescue teams in the TAG area are the best and most experienced in the US. I understand the guy who was injured was on the Mt. Thor rappels and has a lot of experience. It will probably take a couple of days to hear the details. Geary - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
I don't know the details of what happened in the recent accident in Tennessee, but I can second what Mark said about the importance of looking down frequently and rappelling slowly enough so you can stop on short notice if necessary. This is good advice even when you think you are sure that every rope rigged in the vicinity is long enough to reach the bottom.Back when I was a caver in Colorado, before moving to Austin, there was a seriousrappellingaccident that came very close to being twice as bad, by seriously injuring, or perhaps even killing, a second caver. On the way down, one experienced caver accidently cut his rappel rope, resulting in a long fall with serious injuries to himself. (Yes, cutting his rope was another one on those preventable mistakes you don't normally expect from an experienced caver.) At the top, another, somewhat less experienced, caver had been waiting his turn to rappel and was in a location where he couldn't see what had just happened below. When he saw the rope go slack, he assumed that the first caver was safely off rope at the bottom. There hadn't been any "off rope" voice signal, of course, but the caver above probably thought that the wind and weather conditions were simply too noisy for the signal to be heard, so he rigged in and began rappelling, with no thought to the possibility that the rope might no longer reach bottom. Fortunately, he did look down and was able to stop before rappelling off the end, but it was a very close call. I understand that he stopped only about a foot or two above where the rope had been cut, and he had to be helped back to the top by other cavers, since he didn't have ascending gear accessible to switch over by himself. Yes, indeed, sometimes it does pay to look where you are going!Rod-Original Message-From: Mark Minton Sent: May 30, 2011 8:49 PMTo: Texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too short and that could potentially be confused for the correct one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me. I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future.Mark MintonAt 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote:There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now, and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.Please reply to mmin...@caver.netPermanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org -Visit our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comFor additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
