from:"Kenneth Ingham"

Re: [SWR] Bat hibernation

2014-06-12 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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A few points for both sides in this discussion.

Yelling (virtually) and name calling will not get anybody anywhere nor
make any converts.

Doing scientific research takes time, lots of it to do it well.
Instant results are only available on TV.

Doing scientific research takes money, lots of it to do it well.  I
personally have supported a lot of scientific research out of my own
pocket.  Researchers need the funds in order to do the research, and
in this time of little government money for anything, this is
difficult.  The NSS and BCI are helping out in this area, but more
funding would mean more results.

Speaking as someone with a strong math and science background (I have
a PhD in CS), I will point out that when making a proof about
something the lack of a counterexample means only that you have not
found a counterexample, not that the premise is false.  The same is
true in my field of computer security: the lack of someone finding a
hole in your system means only that they did not find it, not that
there is not a (virtual) Mack truck-sized hole that nobody has thought
of yet.  This means that you cannot argue that because nobody has
shown human transmission of WNS, it cannot occur.  Logically, your
argument contains a fallacy.

WNS has been moving steadily across the country; I am not counting the
OK false positive in this statement.  This means that any caves where
the conditions are favorable for WNS to show up need to be identified
and carefully monitored.  We as cavers should be very happy that
Debbie has been involved in this.  Otherwise, many more caves in NM
and AZ might be closed because nobody would know where the conditions
are right.  Please thank Debbie for her part in keeping many caves open.

Civil communication and disagreement are good.  It forces better
science when you have to convince your strongest critics.  However,
please keep it focused on the science itself and avoid personal attacks.

Let's do something productive with all of the energy represented here.

For Debbie and Diana, please post some references for the cavers to go
read about the latest scientific results.  If PDF files cannot be sent
to the list, my web server can be used to distribute them.

For the people not doing WNS-related science, here are two ideas to
move things forward:
1. Donate as much as you can to the NSS rapid response fund.
http://caves.org/donate/
Then donate more.
2. Ask your legislators to provide more funding for WNS research that
would answer the fundamental questions (what studies would you want to
see in order to help the land agencies make their decisions about cave
openings/closures?).

I welcome any civil responses, whether or not you agree with me.

Kenneth

A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
- ---Dwight D. Eisenhower, First Inaugural Address, January 20, 1953
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Re: [SWR] A New Thread: Crawlways

2014-03-12 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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My most memorable crawl was while surveying with Peter Bosted in
Hawaii.  I thought of the T-short that has an inverted T with a person
in it and the caption, "it is 8 ft wide and 10ft high, and it GOES."

This crawlway was probably around 8ft wide; I'd have to look at
Peter's survey notes to know for sure.  However, it was only about
10in high.  Add to this (small, sharp) lava formations sticking up and
down, like taffy pulled apart and then turned into glass-like rock.
Did I mention that they were really sharp lava formations?  We put
plastic bags down to make the bottom layer easier to move on.  Moving
through the crawlway was a series of "breathe out, lift slightly up,
move forward a few inches, carefully lower down, breathe in."
Retrieving the plastic without leaving shreds was an interesting
challenge.  However, the passage was wide enough to completely turn
around with no problems.

I did not have my camera gear on that trip, and I do not remember
Peter taking any photos there either.

Kenneth
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[SWR] Gallery show of cave photos

2014-03-02 Thread Kenneth Ingham

I am happy to announce my first gallery show focusing on my cave photos
from around the world.

The opening is 5--9pm March 7 at The Artistic Image, 1101 Cardenas Dr.
NE, Suite 206 Albuquerque, NM 87110. The show itself runs through March
and April, so if you cannot make the opening, you can still drop by when
the gallery is open (Tue-Sat 10--6, Sun 11--5, closed Mon).

The attached image has the same information as this email, but in a
prettier format.

I hope to see you there!

Kenneth

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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-27 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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According to the MSDS, The LD50 for rats is 5800 mg/kg (i.e., it takes
a lot to kill 50% of the rats) and it is not a hazard to fish (the
LC50 is also high).  It breaks down relatively rapidly in the
environment.  Just for reference, LD50 of water for rats is >90 ml/kg
(http://conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com/2007/05/everything-is-toxic.html)

I wonder what this means for its useful life in protecting things.
Presumably, you need to recoat regularly.

Kenneth

On 03/26/2013 05:14 PM, Aimee Beveridge wrote:
> What does it do when it enters your bloodstream or groundwater?
> 
> Teflon, scotch guard.they're quite literally, a part of every
> one of us.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Mark Minton 
> wrote:
> 
>> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might
>> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that
>> never gets wet or muddy.
>> .
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is
>> mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>> 
>> -
>>
>> 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>> 
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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-27 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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According to the MSDS, The LD50 for rats is 5800 mg/kg (i.e., it takes
a lot to kill 50% of the rats) and it is not a hazard to fish (the
LC50 is also high).  It breaks down relatively rapidly in the
environment.  Just for reference, LD50 of water for rats is >90 ml/kg
(http://conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com/2007/05/everything-is-toxic.html)

I wonder what this means for its useful life in protecting things.
Presumably, you need to recoat regularly.

Kenneth

On 03/26/2013 05:14 PM, Aimee Beveridge wrote:
> What does it do when it enters your bloodstream or groundwater?
> 
> Teflon, scotch guard.they're quite literally, a part of every
> one of us.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Mark Minton 
> wrote:
> 
>> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might
>> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that
>> never gets wet or muddy.
>> .
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is
>> mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>> 
>> -
>>
>> 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>> 
> ___ SWR mailing list 
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> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-27 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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According to the MSDS, The LD50 for rats is 5800 mg/kg (i.e., it takes
a lot to kill 50% of the rats) and it is not a hazard to fish (the
LC50 is also high).  It breaks down relatively rapidly in the
environment.  Just for reference, LD50 of water for rats is >90 ml/kg
(http://conspiracyfactory.blogspot.com/2007/05/everything-is-toxic.html)

I wonder what this means for its useful life in protecting things.
Presumably, you need to recoat regularly.

Kenneth

On 03/26/2013 05:14 PM, Aimee Beveridge wrote:
> What does it do when it enters your bloodstream or groundwater?
> 
> Teflon, scotch guard.they're quite literally, a part of every
> one of us.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:43 PM, Mark Minton 
> wrote:
> 
>> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might
>> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that
>> never gets wet or muddy.
>> .
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is
>> mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>> 
>> -
>>
>> 
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com 
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>> 
> ___ SWR mailing list 
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> ___ This list is
> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
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Re: [SWR] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-26 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Cool, but according to the application instructions, it will break
down with abrasion and skin oils.

I'm still curious how it might work regarding WNS decon.  They make
claims for bacterial (but not fungal) advantages.

Kenneth


On 03/26/2013 03:43 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never
> gets wet or muddy.
> .
> 
> Mark
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Re: [SWR] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-26 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Cool, but according to the application instructions, it will break
down with abrasion and skin oils.

I'm still curious how it might work regarding WNS decon.  They make
claims for bacterial (but not fungal) advantages.

Kenneth


On 03/26/2013 03:43 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never
> gets wet or muddy.
> .
> 
> Mark
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Re: [SWR] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

2013-03-26 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Cool, but according to the application instructions, it will break
down with abrasion and skin oils.

I'm still curious how it might work regarding WNS decon.  They make
claims for bacterial (but not fungal) advantages.

Kenneth


On 03/26/2013 03:43 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
> Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
> revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never
> gets wet or muddy.
> .
> 
> Mark
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Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards

2013-02-10 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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On 02/09/2013 08:19 PM, Gill Ediger wrote:
> My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? 
> --Ediger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport

The claim is it's the same data on the data page.  It also has a
digitized photo (your passport photo) and "descriptive data".

Kenneth
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Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards

2013-02-10 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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On 02/09/2013 08:19 PM, Gill Ediger wrote:
> My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? 
> --Ediger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport

The claim is it's the same data on the data page.  It also has a
digitized photo (your passport photo) and "descriptive data".

Kenneth
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Re: [SWR] RFID Credit Cards

2013-02-10 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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On 02/09/2013 08:19 PM, Gill Ediger wrote:
> My passport does. Who knows what kind of information is on that? 
> --Ediger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport

The claim is it's the same data on the data page.  It also has a
digitized photo (your passport photo) and "descriptive data".

Kenneth
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-07 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Their last paragraph reads:
Experts said white-nose syndrome has hurt cave in the East
that use bats as tourist attractions. They said it could
have a similar effect on Carlsbad Caverns if the disease
reaches New Mexico.

It sounds like they are referring to the main cave at Carlsbad Caverns
National Park.

Kenneth


On 02/07/2013 09:41 AM, wnsliai...@caves.org wrote:
> Really.  That last statement puzzled me.  What cave are they
> talking about?
> 
> Peter
> 
> Quoting Kenneth Ingham :
> 
> I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen 
> complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last
> night.
> 
> I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept 
> comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people
> in the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful
> comment.
> 
> Kenneth
> 
> On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>>>> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting
>>>> last night:
>>>> 
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
>>>> 
>>>> Lee Skinner
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___ SWR mailing
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> 
> 
> 
> Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological
> Society (802) 272-3802
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-07 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Their last paragraph reads:
Experts said white-nose syndrome has hurt cave in the East
that use bats as tourist attractions. They said it could
have a similar effect on Carlsbad Caverns if the disease
reaches New Mexico.

It sounds like they are referring to the main cave at Carlsbad Caverns
National Park.

Kenneth


On 02/07/2013 09:41 AM, wnsliai...@caves.org wrote:
> Really.  That last statement puzzled me.  What cave are they
> talking about?
> 
> Peter
> 
> Quoting Kenneth Ingham :
> 
> I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen 
> complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last
> night.
> 
> I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept 
> comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people
> in the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful
> comment.
> 
> Kenneth
> 
> On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>>>> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting
>>>> last night:
>>>> 
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
>>>> 
>>>> Lee Skinner
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___ SWR mailing
>>>> list s...@caver.net
>>>> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
>>>> ___ This list is 
>>>> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>>>> 
>> ___ SWR mailing list 
>> s...@caver.net 
>> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
>> ___ This list is
>> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological
> Society (802) 272-3802
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-07 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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Their last paragraph reads:
Experts said white-nose syndrome has hurt cave in the East
that use bats as tourist attractions. They said it could
have a similar effect on Carlsbad Caverns if the disease
reaches New Mexico.

It sounds like they are referring to the main cave at Carlsbad Caverns
National Park.

Kenneth


On 02/07/2013 09:41 AM, wnsliai...@caves.org wrote:
> Really.  That last statement puzzled me.  What cave are they
> talking about?
> 
> Peter
> 
> Quoting Kenneth Ingham :
> 
> I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen 
> complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last
> night.
> 
> I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept 
> comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people
> in the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful
> comment.
> 
> Kenneth
> 
> On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
>>>> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting
>>>> last night:
>>>> 
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
>>>> 
>>>> Lee Skinner
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___ SWR mailing
>>>> list s...@caver.net
>>>> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
>>>> ___ This list is 
>>>> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>>>> 
>> ___ SWR mailing list 
>> s...@caver.net 
>> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
>> ___ This list is
>> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological
> Society (802) 272-3802
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-06 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen
complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last night.

I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept
comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people in
the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful comment.

Kenneth

On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting last
> night:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> ___ SWR mailing list 
> s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
> ___ This list is
> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
> 
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-06 Thread Kenneth Ingham

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I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen
complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last night.

I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept
comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people in
the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful comment.

Kenneth

On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting last
> night:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> ___ SWR mailing list 
> s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
> ___ This list is
> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
> 
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Re: [SWR] WNS meeting in the media

2013-02-06 Thread Kenneth Ingham

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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I cannot figure how they got their last paragraph (the one Jen
complained about) from anything anybody said at the meeting last night.

I tried to leave a comment on their web page, but they only accept
comments from facebook users (I appear to be one of the only people in
the world who does not use it).  Maybe others can leave a useful comment.

Kenneth

On 02/06/2013 09:47 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
> KOAT (Channel 7) had a brief story about the BLM WNS meeting last
> night:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bzt9kso
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> ___ SWR mailing list 
> s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr 
> ___ This list is
> provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
> 
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