Re: [Texascavers] [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Ray, Ernie, & everyone (including Texas Cavers, since I see RD forwarded it
there),

 

Ernie is correct - the beer budget alone would have been enough to put
several conventions in the black (instead of the red). That said, I'm not
opposed to beer (even though I don't drink it myself).

 

The questions are:

-  When is it "enough"? Should we just 30-35 kegs (more than OTR
purchases, and that is designated a "party event", yet what was being
budgeted for in an upcoming convention) and have it every night? I believe
most would say "no, a couple of nights is more than sufficient".

-  When a fight breaks out, and it has several times (to the point
of the police being called), are we responsible since we served it?
Different laws in different states/municipalities/campuses make this a
nightmare to avoid.

-  The main point I have below is not that the NSS wants to ban beer
(we don't), but that we will limit it to the alcoholic beverages listed.
There is a trend coming that wants to serve "hard liquor", and the entire EC
of the NSS is opposed to this. Just as we don't object to the NSS buying
beer & wine, we do object when it comes down to liquor with much higher
alcohol content. I'll buy my own, thank you.

-  The cost of beer alone in a proposed Convention budget is $7,510.
This does not include wine at the NSS Awards Banquet, which is another
$2,475, for a total of $9,985. This amount has easily broken Convention's
budgets all by itself. Part of 2018's "cost savings" is a proposed $200
pre-reg ($250 at the door) registration, and if you want a guidebook that's
extra.

 

So yes, buy extra and truck around the leftovers the next day and fill
everyone's pitchers - that's a really great way to continue to bleed your
Society in a form we can't control. If we don't set a limit, each new
Convention points out the (often large) holes we have in how to host a
convention.

 

I would hope that everyone will instead encourage the Directors to be
fiscally responsible for the Society, and to do the right thing by voting
"for". Everything in moderation, even caving.

 

Wm Shrewsbury

President, for another week

National Speleological Society

 

From: nssw...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:nssw...@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:45 PM
To: nssw...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [NSSwest] BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

 

  

 

Ray, et al,

I don't believe Wm is trying to change your way of drinking, but to use
funding more wisely. When more funding is used for alcoholic purposes to get
folks drinking from the time they wake up to the time they fall into their
tent at night,  is becoming an ongoing thing, yes, yes and we've all seen it
recently. Ha! When you look at the financial picture of putting on a
convention, the teeter-totter seems to be swayed by the beer expenses. As
for the New Member/Fellows gathering that is a simple thing to deal with and
should be a separate issue IMHO. On top of these thoughts, of late, its the
campsites that get all this extra economy--Ha!--and those of us who put off
camping lately, that's our problem, but lowering the cost of registration
could be a major part of this issue, you think?

Ernie Coffman, 8316LF



  

Hello NSS West,

 

You need to know about this.  On the Monday Morning BOG agenda they will
vote on the motion below.

Please talk to your Directors and Officers before the Monday morning vote
and request that each BOG member votes "NO!" on Agenda Item 6.

Please forward this to other list serves.  You can contact your Directors
and Officers even if you are not going to the 2017 Convention.

Let your leaders hear from you directly!
e...@caves.org+direct...@caves.org=b...@caves.org

. and yes, there are several BOG members on the NSS West list.  If you reply
to this list, several will see your reply.

 

Agenda Item 6 "Convention Beverages"  is about restricting when alcoholic
beverages can be served during the Conventions.  You are the representatives
of the membership. You are my representative.  Please vote "NO" on agenda
item 6.

This motion is another unnecessary burden to future Convention committees.
It is another unnecessary, and unwanted requirement.

The motion is below.  The "Note:" below the motion will not be included in
the Acts of the Board.  It is only there to sway your vote. 

Minimally, I am asking you, my Directors, to amend the motion to remove the
sentence "No other alcoholic beverages will be provided."

Example:  There was a Convention (I was there) where not all of the beer was
consumed at the previous night's gathering.  The following day the remaining
beer kegs were trailered through the campground and pitchers were used to
fill campers' containers.  It was a memorable and unexpected perk that was
very much appreciated.  If this motion passes, enjoyable, spontaneous events
cannot happen.

 

6) Convention Beverages 

Shrewsbury moves: The annual NSS Convention is permitted, once legal permits
and pe

Re: [Texascavers] Locklear arrives at NSS Convention

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

I had the pleasure of talking with David Locklear for a few minutes at the 
howdy party. I must admire the trek he has undertaken to arrive solely to enjoy 
one evening activities at convention each year. Thank you David for your 
commitment to the caving community at-large. Safe travels home to all of our 
Texas friends!

Wm Shrewsbury, President 
National Speleological Society 
-- 
Sent from my Android. Please excuse my brevity and typos.

On July 18, 2016 8:17:19 PM PDT, Logan McNatt via Texascavers 
 wrote:
>Frank Binney asked me to forward this photo he took of Locklear and 
>himself at the NSS Convention in Ely, NV.
>
>Logan McNatt
>lmcn...@austin.rr.com
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Texascavers Digest, Vol 23, Issue 11

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Long reply, so I apologize in advance…

 

The search for a new office was started 15 years ago. This purchase was never a 
mistake, and in fact was the least expensive of the options on the Commissions 
table at the time. The others ranged from $4M-$6M. That we will be able to do 
this for under $2.5M is incredible. There was no political group within the 
BOG, and I can certainly tell you that it was well reviewed for months before 
Convention as well as during Convention week. The vote is below:

 

>From the July 2011 Minutes:

VOTE on the motion: 

In Favor: Clark, Kayes, Liebman, Luckins, Putnam, Schindel, Wheeland, Wiseman, 
Young 

Opposed: Bush, Cole, Devine, Joop, Paylor 

Abstain: Kerbo, Tiderman 

PASSED

 

Since I was president at the time, I did not vote (I only vote when it will 
make a difference), however I would have voted “In Favor”. The vote was 64% in 
favor and 36% opposed. It seems like a super-majority of the BOG must have been 
part of this “political group”.

 

I have problems with your unnamed “well-placed and knowledgeable individuals 
involved with the financing” since I have had many discussions with not only 
the previous President of the NSF, Roger McClure, but also the current 
President, Ted Kayes, who on several occasions has expressed his enthusiasm at 
the potential this asset has created for the Society, allowing us not only room 
to grow from our overly stuffed previous headquarters but to also have rental 
income to assist the Society with an income stream independent of membership 
levels, giving us the ability to give out even larger grants, purchase more 
caves (we are in the process of acquiring 8 more as I write this), and fund 
areas that have been underfunded for decades, such as public education and 
awareness. As many of you know, Ted is very conservative, and to have his 
approval means quite a bit. I am aware of a recent letter that went out, and 
all I will say is that there were several errors in the numbers, and the 
personal opinion of the sender does not agree with the actual numbers. Numbers 
don’t have opinions – they are what they are no matter how we feel about them.

 

As for discussing this at the last BOG meeting, not only was it an item on the 
agenda (you can see the minutes online) it had been discussed for months prior 
to the meeting, the Board has had a webinar presented to go over the various 
options after that meeting, the Fundraising Committee has gone over the numbers 
several times, and I attended the recent NSF meeting in Pennsylvania to go over 
the options and numbers with the entire Foundation as well. We also invited all 
the director candidates, nearly all of who attended, to the webinar and are 
including them in our discussions. This is so that everyone will have the facts 
at hand, and not be forced to decide something this important with one weeks’ 
notice. I should also mention that we will have a special session at Convention 
this year to go over the options with those who attend, a second shorter 
presentation with the COG, and there will also be the upcoming Webinar next 
Thursday evening that is open to the membership.

 

On membership, we are not shrinking. We shrank a little before the recession, 
and immediately after it started to just over 9K. We remain there (9,213) and a 
lot of ‘blame’ for not having a higher membership is on me. I have not pushed 
for membership growth as we did back in the late 90’s and early 2000’s. I’ve 
instead been working with various agencies to keep as much of our government 
lands open to NSS Cavers as possible, getting some long lost committees back on 
track, and Fundraising, among the other various duties I have, of course. I 
have given the BOG my notice that I am stepping down next year, and that I hope 
the next President sets this as their primary goal.

 

To date we have raised over a million dollars. Yes, over $1M. A lot of that has 
gone to renovations. $300K of that went to interest on the loan. We purchased 
the HQ and 94+ acres with 3 caves for $1.75M. In December, when the loan must 
be refinanced (commercial loan time-frame limits) we will owe $1.3M. That means 
we have also paid $450K off the purchase price and have built a beautiful 
office, bookstore, library, archive, and large public display area – all of 
which are now complete. $1.3M seems like a lot, but if we could encourage every 
current member to make a single one-time donation of $141.11 we would pay this 
off this month. A lot of folks get more than that back in their income tax 
returns each year (the average refund was $2,700 last year according to the 
IRS). Asking for $25 a month is less than a typical night out with a meal and a 
beer.

 

I’ll briefly touch on the Life Member Fund – this has been used at least 3 
times in the past for loans to our Society. First, we purchased the old 
headquarters in Huntsville when we moved from DC. We used it a second time when 
we added onto the building. T

Re: [Texascavers] Join the NSS and Team 404

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

You're correct Bill - we (well, I) knew exactly what "404" meant, having been a 
programmer since 1972. As I was writing the announcement in the evening of 
December 15th, 2011, after having signed the paperwork earlier in the day, I 
looked for an amount that wouldn't be too much to ask for, but also didn't need 
everyone on board. It was the mortgage divided by $25 a month. Part of number 
was indeed the notoriety of it, and the number does stick with us.

On a similar note, while the balance of $1.3M seems like a lot, if we were to 
divide that by our current 9,213 membership that comes to $141.11 per person. 
If there were only some way that everyone would take up this challenge, perhaps 
with their tax returns this year, we could pay this off in a month.

Wm Shrewsbury, President
National Speleological Society

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Mixon Bill via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 4:19 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Join the NSS and Team 404

Actually, Stephen, they knew about 404 when they came up with that name. I 
guess it was just the number of $25 a month recurring donations they needed to 
cover the mortgage payments. Or maybe they thought using 404 made it memorable 
because of the number's notoriety. During the campaign, they tended to brag 
about how far toward the 404 goal they were, but that was often based not on 
number of participants but on total dollars. Some people signed up for more 
than $25 a month. Good for them.

The form for signing up for Team 404 is at 
http://caves.org/donate/HQ_Donation_Form.pdf. (Our "Team 404" does actually 
come up on Google, if you have the extraordinary patience to proceed to the 
fourth page. Lots of others seem to like Team 404, too.) Note that, as 
invariably on promotions about the building, the picture there is completely 
phony. That protuberance on the front is something they imagine they might 
build after they pay off the mortgage and raise a lot more besides, which of 
course will take a lot more than just the cost of keeping up the payments. 
Commercial mortgages are not self-amortizing. -- Mixon

What great comfort is there to be derived from a wife well obeyed!—Anthony 
Trollope, Barchester Towers

You may "reply" to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers list 
post) came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] Join the NSS and Team 404

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Bill Jackson is the NSS Fundraising Chairman. I passed along your concerns to 
him, and his response is below.

(forwarded by Wm Shrewsbury)

Jerry, the emailed message from the Fundraising Chair reports the needs of your 
Society. This one was to let everyone know we need donations earmarked for the 
HQ property which we purchased nearly five years ago. Just like everything in 
life, there are peaks and troughs in fundraising. We have had a recent trough 
over the last six months and want to get it back to a peak, and with continuing 
fundraising efforts to keep it up so that we can pay the mortgage ahead of 
schedule and quit giving interest to a third party.

This is a long term project with a mortgage amortized over 20 years. Since it 
is a commercial mortgage, it was for five years with a balloon payment 
necessitating the refinance. This is not news; we knew it was coming and have 
had it on the radar.

We appreciate Bill Steele’s comments and efforts to promote this NSS project. 
We want to solicit the support of NSS members. If anything we are interested in 
increasing membership rather than driving people out. We will make no headway 
either way by alienating members or nonmember cavers.

The requirement that grotto members has been left to grottos to deal with 
simply because the NSS really has no good way to enforce it. This was recorded 
in the annual I/O report, however it was dropped by the I/O committee due the 
difficulty enforcing it.

We encourage Grottos to do to enforce the membership rule as much as possible. 
We also understand that there are some who want to go caving and don’t feel the 
need to contribute to the “parent” of the organization that they go caving with 
- the one that most likely wouldn't exist if we hadn't been around to set 
structure for, to provide guidance for, programs for, camaraderie between 
others, a national voice, create federal cave protection laws for, sponsor 
expeditions for, etc.. At the NSS organizational level, we would like for 
membership to be appealing to cavers so that they would like to join. It is 
often said, by those who have sought and found answers from us, that we don't 
toot our own horn enough.

It should be noted that membership dues, by design, do not pay a single dime 
against the mortgage. Dues are used to pay the office staff, produce the 
News/Journal/American Caving Accidents, other books we print, and many other 
things. We have been very careful to keep dues and the mortgage separated. 
Thus, the upgrading of our office from a tiny little building to the classy 
facility it now has been funded entirely by separate donations. Dues run the 
Society, not pay for the upgrade in our facility. 

More members gives us a louder voice at the table when we sit down at the table 
with the BLM, DNR, NPS, USFWS, and other government organizations. They are the 
caretakers of our public lands; we represent the voice of those who want to use 
our publicly owned lands for the exploration, study, and protection of the 
underground resources in them. We estimate that we could double the size of our 
voice if everyone in every Grotto, already receiving some of the benefits of 
the NSS, would join. That we are heard now is good. With a larger presence we 
could provide an even greater voice.

In the meantime, we have our new HQ building that has to be refinanced by this 
December. The less we have to refinance the better, of course, and thus this 
appeal. We sure could use Team 404 members and grotto donations to help with 
this.

Bill Jackson
Fundraising Chairman
National Speleological Society
fundrais...@caves.org

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of via 
Texascavers
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 4:17 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com; speleoste...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Join the NSS and Team 404

Rather than "embarrass" our existing members, and further alienating those 
peripheral grotto members that don't desire to be formally NSS affiliated, why 
don't we share a bit of that embarrassment with the NSS leadership that decided 
their going-in business model for paying off the new NSS headquarters would be 
begging for donations from their membership. When that wisdom went south with 
the financial downturn, our present strategy is to now shake the donor tree 
even harder to the point of needing to embarrass existing members who don't 
sign up fast enough, and to force non-NSS grotto members to sign up or leave 
the grotto. Can you guys kick yourself in the ass any faster ?  

Jerry Atkinson.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Alex Sproul via Texascavers 
 wrote:
Thank you for this Bill! This needs to be said, many times and loudly. If all 
the hangers-on joined up, even without joining Team 404, the mortgage issue 
would essentially be solved. And it would cost 'em less than pizza and beer one 
Saturday night.

It's been a pet 

Re: [Texascavers] Drones for rigging

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Here's one I've been thinking of purchasing. They indicate they will have a 
proximity sensor option in the future:
http://www.ascentaerosystems.com/sprite. Combine it with the live control panel 
and we might just have a 'cave capable' drone for checking out high leads.

Wm

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Mark Minton via Texascavers
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:00 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Drones for rigging

  Here is a link to a (no doubt pricey) "collision-proof" drone:
. The cage likely reduces payload for other things, 
but it might at least work with a video camera for recon, even if it couldn't 
do any rigging. Another lightweight option would be to use a drone to simply 
drape a string over a suitable anchor (if one could be found) and use that to 
pull up a rope later. Something similar was done years ago using a helium 
balloon for Top of the Cross in Carlsbad.

Mark

On Sun, September 27, 2015 11:19 pm, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers wrote:
>
> There are a lot of factors when dealing with obstacles around you 
> while flying.  If I know I'm going to be flying near walls or other 
> things that could interrupt the props, I have prop guards that I can be put 
> on.
>
> I have smacked a canyon wall once, while "ridge walking" using my 
> drone, luckily it survived, even after falling 20 feet and hitting a 
> large rock at the bottom, but I was very lucky and no, didn't have the 
> guards on that time.
>
> Terrain/obstacle avoidance would be a nice feature of a drone, give me 
> sensors to let me know how far away I am on 3 axis and I'd be happy :) 
> Even if it cost a bit of weight and lowered my flight time.
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
>
>> You'll notice that the video of using a drone for rigging has nicely 
>> padded walls, presumably to protect the drone. Just yesterday I was 
>> talking to a profession film maker who uses drones on his projects.
>> He said drones and canyons don't go well together, at least not when 
>> the drone is carrying an expensive video camera. I would think trying 
>> fly a drone anywhere near a cave wall would be a big problem. -- 
>> Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] April 2014 NSS News

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

Ralph,

AVP Geary accidently included an extra bit to the link from the email blast we 
sent out. The correct link is:
https://caves.org/nss-business/m8prAthe.shtml

As Geary noted below you will need to log on with your NSS # and the zip code 
we send your hard copy to.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Ron 
Ralph via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:33 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] April 2014 NSS News

I hope this link works for all of you -- I got a 404 ERROR message.
Ron

-Original Message-
From: Geary Schindel via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 8:17 AM
To: 'texascavers@texascavers.com'
Subject: [Texascavers] April 2014 NSS News

Today is an exciting day for the National Speleological Society.  Today we are 
launching the very first digital issue of the NSS NEWS.  Last month we sent you 
an email letting you know that you would soon be receiving the NEWS digitally 
and today it is happening.  We’re excited!

If you click on the following link you’ll find the April issue of the NSS
NEWS:

https://caves.org/nss-business/m8prAthe.shtml

Please note that you’ll need your NSS number as your log-on ID and the password 
is your five-digit zip code.  If you don’t recall you NSS number, give the 
office a call at 256-852-1300 and the staff will be happy to help.

Dave Luckins, NSS Operations Vice President







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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

(Now at home and able to perhaps reply)

Speaking on behalf of the NSS Board we agree with everything George Veni has
posted below concerning KIP, its purpose, and how they handle their
material. I must make one clarification though: the NSS did not sent any
Grotto newsletters to KIP.

The collections that are in question were donated by a Grotto and included
their exchange newsletters. The did not and will not send our archive of
newsletters (every Grotto is required to send copies to the NSS for our own
library archive, so we have a lot) to KIP. We do not own the copyright to
those publications, and as such will not distribute them for digital
archiving.

We did send our own publications for archiving, and due to the vast majority
of it being performed from a large donation (it is a destructive process,
and the donor understood the pages would be separated), we have found that
there are a few, at most, that may have locations imbedded in the article.
Since it is NSS policy, until we catch up with the rest of the world, to
conceal locations we will mark over the relevant words/sentences and submit
those for substitution.

We too would encourage Grottos to submit their reviewed (and if necessary,
redacted) archives to KIP. Archives of NSS Publications that have not been
redacted may be found in our Members section: www.caves.org.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
George Veni via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

Mark and everyone, 

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to
connect yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post
the Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials,
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some
Pennsylvania cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly
spread. KIP immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS.
Currently the KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS
had authority to post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc.
It is professionally and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so
removing those publications is necessary  until clear permission is in
place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue
posting them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider
sensitive, just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post
their materials immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a
specified period. Some want certain information redacted and some don't.
 The KIP team will work to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical.
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such
protection. 

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first,
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material.
Even where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term.
KIP retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it
doesn't distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has
happened as organizations change priorities and publications go out of print
(or the last copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any
benefit in not freely posting their materials. 

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list.
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to do so.

George


Sent from my mobile phone 

 

George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
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 Original message 
From: Mark Minton via Texascavers  
Date: 2014/12/10 08:04 (GMT-07:00) 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal 

George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto

Re: [Texascavers] Charles

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

I’ll second that comment!  Charles has been invaluable to the NSS!

 

Wm

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Geary Schindel via Texascavers
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 8:48 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Charles

 

Thanks Charles for all the hard work you put into this and the NSS web pages.

 

Geary

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