[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to bOn Apr 29, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:...The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures Ken, Agreed as to the very difficult politics of closing Carlsbad Cavern. I have made two recent trips to that cave and the only mention I saw of WNS at all was a small flyer on the door of the restaurant. There was certainly no questioning of any kind by anyone as to what caves I might have visited. If there is such a policy at Carlsbad it was instituted in just the last few days. Larry___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
We all want to do something to save the bats and know there isn't much we can do. Cavers also have more interest in saving the rest of the cave environment for multiple use (science, conservation, and recreation), and we need to work together with everyone we can to get through this (except the CBD who would rather attack everyone). Jen. From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: pagan...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:30:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some
[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to bOn Apr 29, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:...The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures Ken, Agreed as to the very difficult politics of closing Carlsbad Cavern. I have made two recent trips to that cave and the only mention I saw of WNS at all was a small flyer on the door of the restaurant. There was certainly no questioning of any kind by anyone as to what caves I might have visited. If there is such a policy at Carlsbad it was instituted in just the last few days. Larry___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
We all want to do something to save the bats and know there isn't much we can do. Cavers also have more interest in saving the rest of the cave environment for multiple use (science, conservation, and recreation), and we need to work together with everyone we can to get through this (except the CBD who would rather attack everyone). Jen. From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: pagan...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:30:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some
[SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past with other issues, would be to appoint one person to direct all three agencies regarding WNS and what to do about it. Doing this piecemeal looks foolish, non-productive, and is not compatible with any scientific method, nor does it promote true scientific study. Carl.. On Apr 29, 2011, at 7:30 AM, dhum...@blm.gov wrote: Carl, Yellowjacket is closed. Donna Hummel Deputy Chief, Office of External Affairs USDI, Bureau of Land Management New Mexico State Office 301 Dinosaur Trail Santa Fe, NM 87508 Office: 505/954-2019 Cell:505/660-8528 Fax:505/954-2010 Email:dhum...@blm.gov ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some pretty nasty chemicals. Spores are made by some organisms just so they can survive in adverse conditions. In some cases producing spores is a last resort by the organism to survive. Understand, that I am not a scientist. I work in a hospital, where we deal with spores and contamination often. Unfortunately, the only thing that kills spores is something severe, like a 409, or simple soap and water, which is impractical in a cave environment. Seems that this issue needs to be settled, with all three agencies involved in a coordinated effort. A suggestion, as has been done in the past
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
Carl, The agencies are trying to bOn Apr 29, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:...The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures Ken, Agreed as to the very difficult politics of closing Carlsbad Cavern. I have made two recent trips to that cave and the only mention I saw of WNS at all was a small flyer on the door of the restaurant. There was certainly no questioning of any kind by anyone as to what caves I might have visited. If there is such a policy at Carlsbad it was instituted in just the last few days. Larry___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures
We all want to do something to save the bats and know there isn't much we can do. Cavers also have more interest in saving the rest of the cave environment for multiple use (science, conservation, and recreation), and we need to work together with everyone we can to get through this (except the CBD who would rather attack everyone). Jen. From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: pagan...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:30:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures Carl, The agencies are trying to be proactive without closing all the caves. They are closing the caves that have significant bat populations. Caves that do not have significant bat populations are being left open for recreational caving to the extent possible. They are caught in a Catch 22 situation. If they don't close any of the caves and WNS shows up in NM then the agencies will get blasted for doing nothing to prevent it. If they close all the caves they will get blasted for over reacting to a threat that may never materialize. They are trying to take the middle road. As for the 'big cave with the big bat population, I find it amusing to observe. Here we see simple economics pitted against the the NPS own policy of closing caves with signifincant bat populations. If they were to close off access to the caverns the city of Carlsbad and Eddy County would be all over them for the loss of tourist revenues. The NPS does not want a fight with the local governments over the loss of revenues to the local businesses , not to mention the loss of revenues at the cave itself. They have instead decided to go with questioning each visitor about what caves they have been in recently and then implementing some decon procedures. When it comes to dollars versus common sense - the dollar always rules! BLM has also closed 31 caves in the state due to the possible spread of WNS. The LNF is in the process of closing Cottonwood, Hidden and Sentinel caves as a preventive measure. So the NPS is simply following the examples set by the others. This is one case where the various agencies are trying to be uniform in thier approaches to perceived threat of WNS. Also remember that the entire proactive appraoch is being driven by a single biolgist and i do not think she has a specialized background in bats. In this particular case, one person's attempt at levity, was misunderstood and caused significant over reaction by the caving community. I will get off my soap box. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:00:41 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had sent this just to Donna as a reply, but feel that, again, all levity aside, that there is merit in the suggestion of one person to coordinate cave closures or not, for all three agencies, if this is even possible.You can't close just some of the caves, leaving others open such as Carlsbad, with the huge bat population there. It doesn't make sense, nor is it productive, or conducive to understanding the problem of the spread of WNS. I do not advocate the closing of the caves due to WNS-BUT, if is coming to that, then close all the caves, for the reasons stated below. Carl.. Begin forwarded message: From: Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 29, 2011 10:46:42 AM MDT To: dhum...@blm.gov Subject: Re: [SWR] Fw: Carlsbad Caverns National Park Announces Cave Closures I had suspected that. Years ago, I helped put in the bat gate. All levity aside, it would be prudent, and look a lot better, if the agencies, i.e. NPS, FS, and BLM, got together for a coordinated effort.. Doing this piecemeal looks bad and is not a scientific method for determining the spread of WNS. Either close all the caves, including Carlsbad, or leave all of them open. Bats, are intelligent, and will find a new gig if conditions looks better. You can't stop that. All three agencies should coordinate and make a decision very quickly to close all the caves or not close them. By closing all caves to human traffic, a more scientific determination can be made as to the spread of WNS, i.e. if you still see the spread of WNS, then you can prove beyond any doubt that it wasn't because of human traffic. Carlsbad is the kicker,people come from all over the country to see Carlsbad. This has an obvious big impact on the City of Carlsbad. How do you close an entire National Park, at least on the inside? I wonder what the percentage is of people who come from back east where WNS is prevalent? Remember too, that spores are almost indestructible, except with some
