Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-11 Thread Bruce 
Not a conspiracy theory, I really have heard people say I’m not a real caver, 
it was just a comment on the in group out group social dynamics typical of all 
special interest groups no matter how small. Nonetheless, I remain confused 
(about a lot of things!). I still don’t know if my posts from Peru made it out 
of cyber perdition to the list at large for I certainly haven’t seen them. 
Perhaps that is due to the method of delivery I have chosen? (Digest I think?) 
I still don’t know why I invariably get a message in return stating that my 
post awaits moderation, perhaps something to do with implicit destination 
whatever that means? It is my usual practice to send the post to myself then 
BCC the list and any other interested friends. Despite my efforts to wean 
myself from the evils of AOL I believe I have used a registered AOL address on 
all submissions. Am I wrong? Did I change my registered address? Por favor, 
someone set me straight!

 

SW

 

From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Charles 
Loving
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Cavers Texas 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

 

 

 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 2:02 PM Katherine Arens mailto:ar...@austin.utexas.edu> > wrote:

it meant you sent them to the list from your OTHER email . . . not the one 
you’re registered with.  No conspiracy theories, please.

On Oct 10, 2018, at 12:54 PM, Bruce mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com> > wrote:

 

I have heard it said many times, both to my face and otherwise, that “The so 
called Weazel isn’t a ‘real’ caver”. It is true that I generally dislike cold, 
wet, muddy, dark places, have never surveyed an inch, and have an unconquerable 
terror of heights including exposure to anything over 18 inches below where I 
am standing. I prefer not to participate in anything resembling an organized 
trip, much less an official expedition, and I rarely if ever go to grotto 
meetings. In fact, I’m not even a current member of any grotto, especially the 
ones here in Florida that resemble a cross between a boy scout troop and a 
church group.  The fact that during the last 55 years (I started when I was 15 
or so) I have visited many hundreds of pits and thousands of caves around the 
world apparently doesn’t count. As in politics, the only thing that counts is 
whether or not you are a member of ‘MY’ group, otherwise you are an imposter or 
one of ‘them the others’. 

 

SW

 

Ps: While in Peru for the last two months I sent several trip reports to this 
list but have no idea if any of them made it through. All I have ever gotten 
was a notification that “This post awaits moderator approval” or something to 
that effect. The lack of echoes makes me think I have just been shouting in the 
dark to no effect. Am I the new David? Have my posts gone through or have they 
been rejected as coming from someone who isn’t a ‘real’ caver? 

 

From: Texascavers < <mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com> 
texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com> On Behalf Of Logan
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:47 AM
To:  <mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com> texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

 

Yep, I think many of us have had that experience. Mention caving and listen to 
a long description of their harrowing adventures at Enchanted Rock, Garner 
State Park, or Gorman Cave back when it was privately owned and open to 
everyone. Amazing how many "undiscovered" caves there are out there with 
"miles' of passage that cavers have never seen. Sure, there are some, but not 
the ones these folks describe. 

On 10/9/2018 1:11 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are allowed to 
characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, sometimes miniscule, 
participation in that activity.  Seen from another viewpoint, those peripheral 
experiences may have been powerful enough to last a lifetime.  I have 
encountered the same things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an 
individual frame of reference.

 

===Carl Kunath

 <mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net> carl.kun...@suddenlink.net

 


  _  


 

 

From:  <mailto:cwilliamste...@gmail.com> Bill Steele

In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said their 
fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned out they went to 
Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. It comes down to your 
point of reference.

 

Bill Steele 

 <mailto:speleoste...@aol.com> speleoste...@aol.com


 

 

 

 


 
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Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-10 Thread Logan 

Sleazeweazel, Bruce Morgan, Bruce, SW:

Your posts to the Texascavers list have been coming through.

My email inbox holds the following (not counting ones I may have saved 
separately or deleted):

11 from 5/26 to 11/3 2017, sent by Sleazeweazel
2 from 4/20 and 6/6 2018, sent by Bruce Morgan
10 from 3/31 to 7/21, &10/10 2018, sent by Bruce

You choose to be a fiercely independent person and caver, free of the 
restrictions of organized trips, expeditions, grottos, meetings, 
memberships, or anything that infringes on your right to be you.  
Nothing wrong with that. I enjoy reading about your world-wide travels 
and adventures told in a unique and perceptive writing style. I 
definitely do not consider you an "imposter".


The cavers I know are also  individuals in their own right, but choose 
to participate in all of the above that you avoid because they feel they 
can accomplish much more as a team, and develop life-long friendships.  
Nothing wrong with that.  They (we) do not shun you or think ill of you 
because your are not a member of "MY" group. They just haven't shared 
any caving or other friendship-building experiences with you, and that's 
your choice.


You do what's right for you; they (we) do what's right for us.

Sincerely,
Logan McNatt
(MEMBER: NSS, TSS, TSA, TCMA, UTG and many non-caving groups)

On 10/10/2018 12:54 PM, Bruce wrote:


*I have heard it said many times, both to my face and otherwise, that 
“The so called Weazel isn’t a ‘real’ caver”. It is true that I 
generally dislike cold, wet, muddy, dark places, have never surveyed 
an inch, and have an unconquerable terror of heights including 
exposure to anything over 18 inches below where I am standing. I 
prefer not to participate in anything resembling an organized trip, 
much less an official expedition, and I rarely if ever go to grotto 
meetings. In fact, I’m not even a current member of any grotto, 
especially the ones here in Florida that resemble a cross between a 
boy scout troop and a church group.  The fact that during the last 55 
years (I started when I was 15 or so) I have visited many hundreds of 
pits and thousands of caves around the world apparently doesn’t count. 
As in politics, the only thing that counts is whether or not you are a 
member of ‘MY’ group, otherwise you are an imposter or one of ‘them 
the others’. *


**

*SW*

**

*Ps: While in Peru for the last two months I sent several trip reports 
to this list but have no idea if any of them made it through. All I 
have ever gotten was a notification that “This post awaits moderator 
approval” or something to that effect. The lack of echoes makes me 
think I have just been shouting in the dark to no effect. Am I the new 
David? Have my posts gone through or have they been rejected as coming 
from someone who isn’t a ‘real’ caver? *


**

*From:*Texascavers  *On Behalf Of 
*Logan

*Sent:* Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:47 AM
*To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
*Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

Yep, I think many of us have had that experience. Mention caving and 
listen to a long description of their harrowing adventures at 
Enchanted Rock, Garner State Park, or Gorman Cave back when it was 
privately owned and open to everyone. Amazing how many "undiscovered" 
caves there are out there with "miles' of passage that cavers have 
never seen. Sure, there are some, but not the ones these folks describe.


On 10/9/2018 1:11 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are
allowed to characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal,
sometimes miniscule, participation in that activity.  Seen from
another viewpoint, those peripheral experiences may have been
powerful enough to last a lifetime.  I have encountered the same
things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an individual
frame of reference.

===Carl Kunath

carl.kun...@suddenlink.net <mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net>



*From:*Bill Steele <mailto:cwilliamste...@gmail.com>

In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who
said their fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it
turned out they went to Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when
in college. It comes down to your point of reference.

Bill Steele

speleoste...@aol.com <mailto:speleoste...@aol.com>



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Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-10 Thread Katherine Arens 
it meant you sent them to the list from your OTHER email . . . not the one 
you’re registered with.  No conspiracy theories, please.
On Oct 10, 2018, at 12:54 PM, Bruce 
mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com>> wrote:

I have heard it said many times, both to my face and otherwise, that “The so 
called Weazel isn’t a ‘real’ caver”. It is true that I generally dislike cold, 
wet, muddy, dark places, have never surveyed an inch, and have an unconquerable 
terror of heights including exposure to anything over 18 inches below where I 
am standing. I prefer not to participate in anything resembling an organized 
trip, much less an official expedition, and I rarely if ever go to grotto 
meetings. In fact, I’m not even a current member of any grotto, especially the 
ones here in Florida that resemble a cross between a boy scout troop and a 
church group.  The fact that during the last 55 years (I started when I was 15 
or so) I have visited many hundreds of pits and thousands of caves around the 
world apparently doesn’t count. As in politics, the only thing that counts is 
whether or not you are a member of ‘MY’ group, otherwise you are an imposter or 
one of ‘them the others’.

SW

Ps: While in Peru for the last two months I sent several trip reports to this 
list but have no idea if any of them made it through. All I have ever gotten 
was a notification that “This post awaits moderator approval” or something to 
that effect. The lack of echoes makes me think I have just been shouting in the 
dark to no effect. Am I the new David? Have my posts gone through or have they 
been rejected as coming from someone who isn’t a ‘real’ caver?

From: Texascavers 
mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com>>
 On Behalf Of Logan
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:47 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

Yep, I think many of us have had that experience. Mention caving and listen to 
a long description of their harrowing adventures at Enchanted Rock, Garner 
State Park, or Gorman Cave back when it was privately owned and open to 
everyone. Amazing how many "undiscovered" caves there are out there with 
"miles' of passage that cavers have never seen. Sure, there are some, but not 
the ones these folks describe.
On 10/9/2018 1:11 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:
Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are allowed to 
characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, sometimes miniscule, 
participation in that activity.  Seen from another viewpoint, those peripheral 
experiences may have been powerful enough to last a lifetime.  I have 
encountered the same things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an 
individual frame of reference.

===Carl Kunath
carl.kun...@suddenlink.net<mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net>




From: Bill Steele<mailto:cwilliamste...@gmail.com>
In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said their 
fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned out they went to 
Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. It comes down to your 
point of reference.

Bill Steele
speleoste...@aol.com<mailto:speleoste...@aol.com>





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Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-10 Thread Bruce 
I have heard it said many times, both to my face and otherwise, that “The so 
called Weazel isn’t a ‘real’ caver”. It is true that I generally dislike cold, 
wet, muddy, dark places, have never surveyed an inch, and have an unconquerable 
terror of heights including exposure to anything over 18 inches below where I 
am standing. I prefer not to participate in anything resembling an organized 
trip, much less an official expedition, and I rarely if ever go to grotto 
meetings. In fact, I’m not even a current member of any grotto, especially the 
ones here in Florida that resemble a cross between a boy scout troop and a 
church group.  The fact that during the last 55 years (I started when I was 15 
or so) I have visited many hundreds of pits and thousands of caves around the 
world apparently doesn’t count. As in politics, the only thing that counts is 
whether or not you are a member of ‘MY’ group, otherwise you are an imposter or 
one of ‘them the others’. 

 

SW

 

Ps: While in Peru for the last two months I sent several trip reports to this 
list but have no idea if any of them made it through. All I have ever gotten 
was a notification that “This post awaits moderator approval” or something to 
that effect. The lack of echoes makes me think I have just been shouting in the 
dark to no effect. Am I the new David? Have my posts gone through or have they 
been rejected as coming from someone who isn’t a ‘real’ caver? 

 

From: Texascavers  On Behalf Of Logan
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:47 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

 

Yep, I think many of us have had that experience. Mention caving and listen to 
a long description of their harrowing adventures at Enchanted Rock, Garner 
State Park, or Gorman Cave back when it was privately owned and open to 
everyone. Amazing how many "undiscovered" caves there are out there with 
"miles' of passage that cavers have never seen. Sure, there are some, but not 
the ones these folks describe. 

On 10/9/2018 1:11 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are allowed to 
characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, sometimes miniscule, 
participation in that activity.  Seen from another viewpoint, those peripheral 
experiences may have been powerful enough to last a lifetime.  I have 
encountered the same things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an 
individual frame of reference.

 

===Carl Kunath

carl.kun...@suddenlink.net <mailto:carl.kun...@suddenlink.net> 

 


  _  


 

 

From: Bill Steele <mailto:cwilliamste...@gmail.com>  

In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said their 
fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned out they went to 
Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. It comes down to your 
point of reference.

 

Bill Steele 

speleoste...@aol.com <mailto:speleoste...@aol.com> 


 

 

 

 


 
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Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-09 Thread Charles Loving 
I went to Wonder Cave.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 9:23 AM Charles Loving  wrote:

> "Let's go a caving, a caving,
> Let's go a caving and join the"
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 1:12 AM Carl Kunath 
> wrote:
>
>> Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are allowed
>> to characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, sometimes
>> miniscule, participation in that activity.  Seen from another viewpoint,
>> those peripheral experiences may have been powerful enough to last a
>> lifetime.  I have encountered the same things/memories/claims as Bill.  It
>> IS very much an individual frame of reference.
>>
>> ===Carl Kunath
>> carl.kun...@suddenlink.net
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> *From:* Bill Steele 
>> In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said
>> their fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned out
>> they went to Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. It comes
>> down to your point of reference.
>>
>> Bill Steele
>> speleoste...@aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>  Virus-free.
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>>
>
>
> --
> Charlie Loving
>


-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-09 Thread Logan 
Yep, I think many of us have had that experience. Mention caving and 
listen to a long description of their harrowing adventures at Enchanted 
Rock, Garner State Park, or Gorman Cave back when it was privately owned 
and open to everyone. Amazing how many "undiscovered" caves there are 
out there with "miles' of passage that cavers have never seen. Sure, 
there are some, but not the ones these folks describe.


On 10/9/2018 1:11 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:
Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are 
allowed to characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, 
sometimes miniscule, participation in that activity.  Seen from 
another viewpoint, those peripheral experiences may have been powerful 
enough to last a lifetime.  I have encountered the same 
things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an individual frame 
of reference.

===Carl Kunath
carl.kun...@suddenlink.net 

*From:* Bill Steele 
In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said 
their fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned 
out they went to Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. 
It comes down to your point of reference.

Bill Steele
speleoste...@aol.com 


 
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[Texascavers] Bill Steele Saw The Truth

2018-10-09 Thread Carl Kunath 
Bill is exactly right.  It’s an inconvenient truth that you are allowed to 
characterize yourself as a caver despite only minimal, sometimes miniscule, 
participation in that activity.  Seen from another viewpoint, those peripheral 
experiences may have been powerful enough to last a lifetime.  I have 
encountered the same things/memories/claims as Bill.  It IS very much an 
individual frame of reference.

===Carl Kunath
carl.kun...@suddenlink.net






From: Bill Steele
In my 42 years of living in Texas I have run into two people who said their 
fathers were cavers and when I later met the fathers it turned out they went to 
Bustamante (Grutas del Palmito) once when in college. It comes down to your 
point of reference.

Bill Steele
speleoste...@aol.com





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