Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[George Veni via Texascavers]

Thirteen years ago I published an article in The Texas Caver titled “TSS: 
Secrecy, Sharing, and Responsibility.” It outlined many of the topics touched 
on in this thread. I presented information on how and why TSS releases data and 
the interest of the average Texas caver in that data. Not much has changed 
since I wrote that article. If any of you are curious, you can find it at 
http://www.karstportal.org/node/11616.

George


George Veni, PhD
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-9215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of via 
Texascavers
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 17:38
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

Meador's files ended up at the Brisco Center for American History in Austin. 
I've been making regular trips there to capture the information and archive it 
properly.

At least he made some plans to have it stored somewhere though I have no idea 
how it ended up there. It's certainly not easy to access or use at it's present 
location.

Jerry Atkinson.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:18 PM, via Texascavers 
<texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>> wrote:



Right on, Diana.



Texas Cavers should understand a case in point: all the accurate and valuable 
cave data acquired by Tom Meador.  Fortunately, Tom published quite a bit.  
However a great deal more vanished after his death.  Tom would have been really 
pissed.



I do understand the important role that secrecy can and should play in the time 
between discovery and real protection of the resource.



The quandary comes when you find something truly exceptional and cannot 
conceive of any way to preserve it short of secrecy or blowing the entrance 
shut. I have certainly been there.



If no one can see it, is it still beautiful?



If  you found it and told no one, is your own life still significant?




I have actually asked myself those questions.




DirtDoc

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Diana Tomchick via Texascavers]

Regardless of landowner relations and what-have-you—if you keep all of your 
data to yourself, regardless of the field, whether it be cave surveying, 
exploration, geology, physics, biology, chemistry, etc., and you never publish 
it or deposit it in an accessible, reputable and continuing database, then you 
might as well treat it as if the data never was collected and the exploration 
never happened. There’s a reason why the noted explorers of yore fought tooth 
and nail to be the first ones to report their discoveries, and why scientists 
live by the “publish or perish” dogma. Priority means publicity means lasting 
fame, and typically also means funds ($$$) to continue your work. Just because 
you were the first person to discover something means absolutely nothing to the 
world if you weren’t the first person to publicize the work—ask any 
professional scientist or explorer.

Also, once you’re dead and gone, there’s no guarantee that your heirs won’t 
just dump all that “caving garbage” into the nearest dumpster.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 2:54 PM, Pete Lindsley via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
>
> Great comments, Travis!
>
> Since I moved out of the state I have worked with the TSS to go through my 
> Texas cave files and archive what they wanted. On some large maps that were 
> going to be scanned, I asked for a digital copy back after scanning. In the 
> case of ancient material, like the Powell's Cave original survey data, I did 
> not ask for digital copies back in return since the data was in good hands. 
> Of course during the file reviews some additional information was passed on 
> to the new leaders of some current projects both in and out of Texas. So just 
> a TSS review of old cave files while you are still kicking can be a great 
> help to the historical archive of the cave and can contribute to work being 
> done today that you thought you finished 50 years ago.
>
> I also support paying very close attention to the cave owner's request when 
> they allow you onto their private property. I think the TSS can play an 
> important part in keeping up good owner relationships. When I started caving 
> in 1960 all we had was Bulletin 10 on Texas Caves, published in 1947 as I 
> recall. But by the 1960s almost all of these caves were either closed or had 
> been long forgotten during land owner changes. So each time we visited the 
> new owner we had to re-establish that personal level of communication to gain 
> access. Some access took over a decade to get back in. One time I was in the 
> position of re-visiting a cave that I had gated and the new owner was 
> complaining that some 

Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[via Texascavers]

Meador's files ended up at the Brisco Center for American History in Austin. 
I've been making regular trips there to capture the information and archive it 
properly. 

At least he made some plans to have it stored somewhere though I have no idea 
how it ended up there. It's certainly not easy to access or use at it's present 
location.

Jerry Atkinson.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:18 PM, via Texascavers  
wrote:

>  
> Right on, Diana.
>  
> Texas Cavers should understand a case in point: all the accurate and valuable 
> cave data acquired by Tom Meador.  Fortunately, Tom published quite a bit.  
> However a great deal more vanished after his death.  Tom would have been 
> really pissed.
>  
> I do understand the important role that secrecy can and should play in the 
> time between discovery and real protection of the resource.
>  
> The quandary comes when you find something truly exceptional and cannot 
> conceive of any way to preserve it short of secrecy or blowing the entrance 
> shut. I have certainly been there.
>  
> If no one can see it, is it still beautiful?
> 
> If  you found it and told no one, is your own life still significant?
> 
> I have actually asked myself those questions.
>  
> DirtDoc
> 
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  I have heard it said that if you explore a cave but do not survey, take
photos and/or write it up, then it didn't happen. That may be true from
the perspective of the wider caver community and posterity, but the
effect on the cave will likely be irrevocable. Unless no one ever goes
there again, then some time in the future when other cavers rediscover
your scoop, they will find footsteps where there should be none. Very
few caves are active enough to erase all evidence of prior human
passage. When those future cavers see that someone has been there before
them, they will wonder who and when, and it will at least somewhat
diminish their triumph. I've been in that situation, and though those
were still significant discoveries, I always wonder who was there before
and why no record was made.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[via Texascavers]

Right on, Diana. 



Texas Cavers should understand a case in point: all the accurate and valuable 
cave data acquired by Tom Meador. Fortunately, Tom published quite a bit. 
However a great deal more vanished after his death. Tom would have been really 
pissed. 



I do understand the important role that secrecy can and should play in the time 
between discovery and real protection of the resource. 



The quandary comes when you find something truly exceptional and cannot 
conceive of any way to preserve it short of secrecy or blowing the entrance 
shut. I have certainly been there. 



If no one can see it, is it still beautiful? 




If you found it and told no one, is your own life still significant? 





I have actually asked myself those questions. 




DirtDoc 

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Great comments, Travis!

Since I moved out of the state I have worked with the TSS to go through my 
Texas cave files and archive what they wanted. On some large maps that were 
going to be scanned, I asked for a digital copy back after scanning. In the 
case of ancient material, like the Powell's Cave original survey data, I did 
not ask for digital copies back in return since the data was in good hands. Of 
course during the file reviews some additional information was passed on to the 
new leaders of some current projects both in and out of Texas. So just a TSS 
review of old cave files while you are still kicking can be a great help to the 
historical archive of the cave and can contribute to work being done today that 
you thought you finished 50 years ago.

I also support paying very close attention to the cave owner's request when 
they allow you onto their private property. I think the TSS can play an 
important part in keeping up good owner relationships. When I started caving in 
1960 all we had was Bulletin 10 on Texas Caves, published in 1947 as I recall. 
But by the 1960s almost all of these caves were either closed or had been long 
forgotten during land owner changes. So each time we visited the new owner we 
had to re-establish that personal level of communication to gain access. Some 
access took over a decade to get back in. One time I was in the position of 
re-visiting a cave that I had gated and the new owner was complaining that some 

[Texascavers] Secrecy

[via Texascavers]

I was originally attracted to caving not just because of my interest in the 
 natural world but also because of the inherent "wildness" of caves and the 
 degree to which others avoid such places. Ditto for my interest in 
jungles,  snakes, and other creepy crawlies. "Wildness" implies a lack of 
control 
by  anyone; so, in pursuit of my interests I generally ignore artificial 
constraints  such as laws and property rights other than to the extent that it 
is impractical  to do otherwise. 
 
You can probably guess that I am a big fan of both Julian Assange and  
Edward Snowden, so my opposition to cave secrecy, speleopolitics, and  
unnecessary gates amounts to complete disdain. If caves were filled with gold 
as  
some lunatics presume then secrecy might be justified, but caves are just holes 
 in the ground filled with mud and darkness. Yes, there are sometimes rare  
organisms, archeological artifacts, and delicate speleothems that need to  
be protected, but on the whole caves are holes of such forbidding  aspect 
that 99% of the populace would prefer to be anywhere else. Like an  interest 
in handling deadly reptiles, caving is an activity for the self  selected 
few. On the whole cavers have an excellent record of commitment to  
conservation; so, except in regard to very specific time and places I find the  
culture 
of cave secrecy to be absolutely ridiculous. 
 
The American people have grown fat, weak, and dissolute. We try to protect  
our children from every conceivable harm and attempt to instill cultural  
constraints that are utterly at odds with our instincts. As a result one  
Palestinian kid with a rock can now beat an entire army composed of so  called 
civilized people. This does not bode well for the future, which is why if  a 
few brave kids with candles want to jump the fence and crawl into a hole in 
 search of gold it is OK with me. It is even OK with me if they write their 
names  on the wall as people have been doing for at least the last 35,000 
years. When  they get to the drop they will either stop or die. That is OK 
with me too. Out  of that group a tiny percentage with brains may decide to 
learn about  geology and ropes. Some might even be clever enough to infiltrate 
a grotto or  search the internet for coordinates. More power to them. 
 
I have grown tired of seeing the hairy butts of my contemporaries in the  
hot tub. I want to see some firm young flesh decorated with rope burns and  
bruises. I want to see the fire in their eyes as they describe their latest  
discovery. That will never happen if our culture of secrecy excludes all who 
do  not adhere to the outmoded doctrines of our faith.
 
Sleazeweazel
 
 
In a message dated 10/15/2015 12:00:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
texascavers@texascavers.com writes:


Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:02:18 +  (UTC)
From: Karen Perry via Texascavers  
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com"  
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] historic  posting
Message-ID:
<513649672.275913.1444838538393.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Granted I am not caving any more but this  overly secret concept of hiding 
cave locations in the caver community has  never made sense to me. I think 
you should share your  files. They are a  part of caver history and need to 
become a part of the record for future  generations. Too much has already 
been lost due to out dated, needless,  paranoid mindsets.
Just my 2 cents,Karen Perry
From: Greg Passmore via Texascavers 
To:  texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:28  AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] historic posting

Many  years ago I made 25 copies of a bunch of cave maps from my files and 
sold them  to fellow cavers for exactly my copying costs (100 pages for $5). 
For this I  got yelled at for years, was given an award for the worst 
behaving caver, and  I was accused of copyright violations.  All that over a 
handful of cave  maps lost in old files. This censorship has helped keep new 
Texas cavers in  the dark about all the great caves that have been lost or 
forgotten in this  state.  It has also been instrumental in the decision not to 
release my  cave files (even to the TSS), which account for over 16 file 
drawers of cave  locations, maps, photos and articles. 

I would like to get all this  stuff out for the next generation of cavers, 
but I am very cautious since the  dying generation of cavers responsible for 
this nonsense are still (barely)  around.  

(rant  over)

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

 of sharing
data with the TSS if nothing else..  I also just felt like I should put in
my 2 cents J

 

Travis

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
via Texascavers
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 12:05 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Secrecy

 

I was originally attracted to caving not just because of my interest in the
natural world but also because of the inherent "wildness" of caves and the
degree to which others avoid such places. Ditto for my interest in jungles,
snakes, and other creepy crawlies. "Wildness" implies a lack of control by
anyone; so, in pursuit of my interests I generally ignore artificial
constraints such as laws and property rights other than to the extent that
it is impractical to do otherwise. 

 

You can probably guess that I am a big fan of both Julian Assange and Edward
Snowden, so my opposition to cave secrecy, speleopolitics, and unnecessary
gates amounts to complete disdain. If caves were filled with gold as some
lunatics presume then secrecy might be justified, but caves are just holes
in the ground filled with mud and darkness. Yes, there are sometimes rare
organisms, archeological artifacts, and delicate speleothems that need to be
protected, but on the whole caves are holes of such forbidding aspect that
99% of the populace would prefer to be anywhere else. Like an interest in
handling deadly reptiles, caving is an activity for the self selected few.
On the whole cavers have an excellent record of commitment to conservation;
so, except in regard to very specific time and places I find the culture of
cave secrecy to be absolutely ridiculous. 

 

The American people have grown fat, weak, and dissolute. We try to protect
our children from every conceivable harm and attempt to instill cultural
constraints that are utterly at odds with our instincts. As a result one
Palestinian kid with a rock can now beat an entire army composed of so
called civilized people. This does not bode well for the future, which is
why if a few brave kids with candles want to jump the fence and crawl into a
hole in search of gold it is OK with me. It is even OK with me if they write
their names on the wall as people have been doing for at least the last
35,000 years. When they get to the drop they will either stop or die. That
is OK with me too. Out of that group a tiny percentage with brains may
decide to learn about geology and ropes. Some might even be clever enough to
infiltrate a grotto or search the internet for coordinates. More power to
them. 

 

I have grown tired of seeing the hairy butts of my contemporaries in the hot
tub. I want to see some firm young flesh decorated with rope burns and
bruises. I want to see the fire in their eyes as they describe their latest
discovery. That will never happen if our culture of secrecy excludes all who
do not adhere to the outmoded doctrines of our faith.

 

Sleazeweazel

 

In a message dated 10/15/2015 12:00:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
texascavers@texascavers.com writes:


Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:02:18 + (UTC)
From: Karen Perry via Texascavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
To: "texascavers@texascavers.com" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] historic posting
Message-ID:
<513649672.275913.1444838538393.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Granted I am not caving any more but this overly secret concept of hiding
cave locations in the caver community has never made sense to me. I think
you should share your  files. They are a part of caver history and need to
become a part of the record for future generations. Too much has already
been lost due to out dated, needless, paranoid mindsets.
Just my 2 cents,Karen Perry
  From: Greg Passmore via Texascavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] historic posting
   
Many years ago I made 25 copies of a bunch of cave maps from my files and
sold them to fellow cavers for exactly my copying costs (100 pages for $5).
For this I got yelled at for years, was given an award for the worst
behaving caver, and I was accused of copyright violations.  All that over a
handful of cave maps lost in old files. This censorship has helped keep new
Texas cavers in the dark about all the great caves that have been lost or
forgotten in this state.  It has also been instrumental in the decision not
to release my cave files (even to the TSS), which account for over 16 file
drawers of cave locations, maps, photos and articles. 

I would like to get all this stuff out for the next generation of cavers,
but I am very cautious since the dying generation of cavers responsible for
this nonsense are still (barely) around.  

(rant over)

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