Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:03 PM, RD Milhollin wrote: Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR and various caving activities is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts... I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied Why? We have the Texas caver. Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC. I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the buy-in that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Actually he is, re-read his last sentence. He does not spell out what change, just that he and others want change. Charles On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business. On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: Actually he is, re-read his last sentence. He does not spell out what change, just that he and others want change. Charles On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Don, this is everyone's business that caves in our area, even non-members of TSA, because anyone who is not a member has a reason, and their input is just as valid :) On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business. On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: Actually he is, re-read his last sentence. He does not spell out what change, just that he and others want change. Charles On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Agreed. But I should let RD speak for himself. On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: Don, this is everyone's business that caves in our area, even non-members of TSA, because anyone who is not a member has a reason, and their input is just as valid :) On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business. On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: Actually he is, re-read his last sentence. He does not spell out what change, just that he and others want change. Charles On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Diane and Charles, I don't know if you have followed the entire thread (name change and all) but my argument has basically two components: that I and others feel that there is not sufficient return on an individual level to justify $20 membership for the TSA; and that the situatiojn could be improved by restructuring the format of the TEXAS CAVER into a digest of the best of articles from the various Texas grotto newsletters. Go back and look at today's posts with that in mind and see if that makes more sense. Perhaps I didn't tie all that together sufficiently. I don't want to run for office since I don't feel that membership is justified. I would like to see change to make the organization available to more people, and with a better grounded basis of benefit for the member. Cheers. RD -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:17 PM To: Don Arburn Cc: Texas Cavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread Actually he is, re-read his last sentence. He does not spell out what change, just that he and others want change. Charles On 1/22/08, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the Caver. On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana --- donarb...@mac.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
It reminds me of this: The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody. There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY. If there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it. EVERYBODY was sure SOMEBODY would do it. ANYBODY could have done it but NOBODY did it. SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really EVERYBODY'S job. EVERYBODY thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY realized that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it. It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed SOMEBODY when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could have done. Diana Tomchick diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu wrote: Hey RD, If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA office for next year? Diana On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:03 PM, RD Milhollin wrote: Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR and various caving activities is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts... I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied Why? We have the Texas caver. Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC. I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the buy-in that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
You certainly do have a way with words :) On 1/22/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: It reminds me of this: The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody. There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY. If there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it. EVERYBODY was sure SOMEBODY would do it. ANYBODY could have done it but NOBODY did it. SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really EVERYBODY'S job. EVERYBODY thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY realized that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it. It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed SOMEBODY when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could have done.
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
On Jan 20, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Andy Grubbs wrote: This is a reply I sent to Fritz, RD and John Brooks the other day If it wasnt for the organizations like NSS and TSA, American cavers would still be flashlight toting spelunkers, instead of the robot diving, Lechuguilla mapping, geomicrobiological investigating, karst protecting, survey inventorying, deep cave expeditionary speleonauts that we are These things are due to their individual educations and drive for excellence, not the TSA. I wasn't aware that Lechuguilla was a TSA project, and I'm fairly certain that survey inventorying is a TSS deal, and TCC and TCMA are really into karst protecting. I could be wrong but I thought the DepthX project was a NASA Bill Stone deal, NOT TSA. plus; we get to drink a lot of beer when we get together This is the result of the TCR. This to me summs up the real benefit of caver organizations. Such as the UT Grotto or Bexar Grotto or Maverick Grotto etc.? Way too many people can not see this for what it is. The Texas Caver. SiO2 is the sand on the beach and the glass windshield in your car. Try to drink fine wine out of a handful of sand. Um..., yeah. AGG
Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread
Well, I didn't write it. I saw it years ago and have hung on to it. Bill Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: You certainly do have a way with words :) On 1/22/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: It reminds me of this: The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody. There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY. If there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it. EVERYBODY was sure SOMEBODY would do it. ANYBODY could have done it but NOBODY did it. SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really EVERYBODY'S job. EVERYBODY thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY realized that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it. It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed SOMEBODY when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could have done.
