RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Mark . Alman]

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

 

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:

 

 

What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge
in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

 

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.

 

 

 

Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!

 

 

Inquiring minds just want to know.

 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

(I'm ducking under a table now) 

 

Mark Alman (not Minton)   J

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

 

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.
html

 

For more information and to learn how to help, go to
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-brac
ken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_med
ium=redirect. 

 

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue
in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember
that your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially
if received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and
their staff have time to read or at least review them. If you live in
the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council meeting is also
important.

 

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

 

George

 



George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Phil Winkler]

It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans, too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to live in that high rent area?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

Thanks for the interesting post, George.



I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:





What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from 
the Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street 
Bridge in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?




The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I 
say, growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer 
than 800 to 900 yards.








Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and 
quartered and left in a pile of guano!






Inquiring minds just want to know.





Your thoughts?







(I'm ducking under a table now)



Mark Alman (not Minton)   J













From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave



http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html



For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect. 





San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this 
issue in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, 
remember that your letters and e-mails will have much greater 
impact, especially if received before the meeting on the 29th so the 
mayor, councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least 
review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence 
at the council meeting is also important.




Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.



George





George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date: 05/22/13

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Stefan Creaser]

Those people are *taxpayers*, they should be allowed to live where they want so 
they can pay taxes to San Antonio!

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:37 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Very true, George. I hadn't thought of that.


Mark



From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ ESG - WSS - IRP; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your 
letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence at the council meeting is also important.

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium. Thank you.

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Jon]

They re not living IN the high rises.  They are living under the bridge.  
Under the bridge living is done all over (under) the major cities.
It's a whole different level of living.
 


 From: Phil Winkler 
To: Bill Bentley ; mark.al...@l-3com.com 
Cc: George Veni ; CaveTex ; New 
Mexico Cavers  
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
  


It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans,
too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to
live in that high rent area?
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
>mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>Thanks for the interesting post, George.
>
> 
>
>I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:
>
> 
>
> 
>
>What� the difference between houses �00 to 900�yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in
Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?
>
> 
>
>The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read �igh rises� are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Just playing dumb here, so please don� advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Inquiring minds just want to know.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Your thoughts?
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>(I� ducking under a table now) 
>
> 
>
>Mark Alman (not Minton)   J
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: George Veni
[mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
>To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
>Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat
Cave
>
> 
>
>http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
>
> 
>
>For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
>http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect
> . 
>
> 
>
>San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in
one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that
your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if
received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor,
councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least review them. If
you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council
meeting is also important.
>
> 
>
>Please share this message with anyone you think may be
interested.
>
> 
>
>George
>
> 
>
>
>
>George Veni, Ph.D.
>
>Executive Director
>
>National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>
>400-1 Cascades Avenue
>
>Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>
>Office: 575-887-5517
>
>Mobile: 210-863-5919
>
>Fax: 575-887-5523
>
>gv...@nckri.org
>
>http://www.nckri.org/
>
> 
>
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/
>Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date:
05/22/13 

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Kurt L. Menking]

I agree we should let Jim weigh in on the bat biology issues... or the impact 
the people could have on the bats.

But there are many other issues:

1.   As George mentioned the subdivision is on the Edwards aquifer recharge 
zone.  Much of the runoff will wind up in the Cibolo creek, which is a major 
sinking stream recharge location.  Any contaminants will be quickly sent into 
the aquifer.

2.   There is critical endangered bird habitat all over the property.  
Recent Bird Surveys have verified many locations where the birds are using the 
property.  This property is also near a large military training facility whose 
mission is being limited due to their impact on the same endangered birds.  
It's not OK for the military to "bother" the birds with their training 
exercises but it is OK for a developer to mow down 1500 acres of critical 
habitat so they can build roads and houses.

3.   Much of this subdivision will be high density middle income style 
housing which will appeal to lots of family with children and pets.  Backyard 
interaction between the occasional downed bat and the children and pets won't 
be good.

4.   The current flight path is directly over this property.  Hawks, owls, 
and other predatory birds regularly hunt this area which could create numerous 
wounded and downed bats.

5.   At any given time there will be 1000 or more middle and high school 
age children living in the area.  Some of them will get curious and sneak 
over/under the fence to go check out the Bat Cave, or some of the other caves 
on the 700 acre BCI property.  This poses a big liability risk for BCI, as well 
as an injury risk for the kids.

6.   The lights from the subdivision will actually attract insects, which 
will in turn attract the bats, adding to the children & bat interactions.

We all know bats are friendly, beneficial creatures, and they generally won't 
bother people.  But we also know they do occasionally contract rabies, and in a 
population as large as Bracken Cave even million to one odds can occur 
frequently.  In fact with 10 million bats coming and going each day for 5-6 
months of the year that's possibly 3 Billion bat crossings over the subdivision 
each year.

I personally think that would be cool.  But not if I had 1 neighbors.

Kurt


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medi

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Mark . Alman]

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

 

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:

 

 

What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge
in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

 

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.

 

 

 

Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!

 

 

Inquiring minds just want to know.

 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

(I'm ducking under a table now) 

 

Mark Alman (not Minton)   J

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

 

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.
html

 

For more information and to learn how to help, go to
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-brac
ken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_med
ium=redirect. 

 

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue
in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember
that your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially
if received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and
their staff have time to read or at least review them. If you live in
the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council meeting is also
important.

 

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

 

George

 



George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Phil Winkler]

It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans, too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to live in that high rent area?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

Thanks for the interesting post, George.



I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:





What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from 
the Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street 
Bridge in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?




The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I 
say, growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer 
than 800 to 900 yards.








Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and 
quartered and left in a pile of guano!






Inquiring minds just want to know.





Your thoughts?







(I'm ducking under a table now)



Mark Alman (not Minton)   J













From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave



http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html



For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect. 





San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this 
issue in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, 
remember that your letters and e-mails will have much greater 
impact, especially if received before the meeting on the 29th so the 
mayor, councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least 
review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence 
at the council meeting is also important.




Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.



George





George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date: 05/22/13

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Stefan Creaser]

Those people are *taxpayers*, they should be allowed to live where they want so 
they can pay taxes to San Antonio!

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:37 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Very true, George. I hadn't thought of that.


Mark



From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ ESG - WSS - IRP; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your 
letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence at the council meeting is also important.

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium. Thank you.

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Jon]

They re not living IN the high rises.  They are living under the bridge.  
Under the bridge living is done all over (under) the major cities.
It's a whole different level of living.
 


 From: Phil Winkler 
To: Bill Bentley ; mark.al...@l-3com.com 
Cc: George Veni ; CaveTex ; New 
Mexico Cavers  
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
  


It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans,
too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to
live in that high rent area?
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
>mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>Thanks for the interesting post, George.
>
> 
>
>I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:
>
> 
>
> 
>
>What� the difference between houses �00 to 900�yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in
Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?
>
> 
>
>The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read �igh rises� are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Just playing dumb here, so please don� advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Inquiring minds just want to know.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Your thoughts?
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>(I� ducking under a table now) 
>
> 
>
>Mark Alman (not Minton)   J
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: George Veni
[mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
>To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
>Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat
Cave
>
> 
>
>http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
>
> 
>
>For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
>http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect
> . 
>
> 
>
>San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in
one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that
your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if
received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor,
councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least review them. If
you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council
meeting is also important.
>
> 
>
>Please share this message with anyone you think may be
interested.
>
> 
>
>George
>
> 
>
>
>
>George Veni, Ph.D.
>
>Executive Director
>
>National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>
>400-1 Cascades Avenue
>
>Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>
>Office: 575-887-5517
>
>Mobile: 210-863-5919
>
>Fax: 575-887-5523
>
>gv...@nckri.org
>
>http://www.nckri.org/
>
> 
>
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/
>Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date:
05/22/13 

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Kurt L. Menking]

I agree we should let Jim weigh in on the bat biology issues... or the impact 
the people could have on the bats.

But there are many other issues:

1.   As George mentioned the subdivision is on the Edwards aquifer recharge 
zone.  Much of the runoff will wind up in the Cibolo creek, which is a major 
sinking stream recharge location.  Any contaminants will be quickly sent into 
the aquifer.

2.   There is critical endangered bird habitat all over the property.  
Recent Bird Surveys have verified many locations where the birds are using the 
property.  This property is also near a large military training facility whose 
mission is being limited due to their impact on the same endangered birds.  
It's not OK for the military to "bother" the birds with their training 
exercises but it is OK for a developer to mow down 1500 acres of critical 
habitat so they can build roads and houses.

3.   Much of this subdivision will be high density middle income style 
housing which will appeal to lots of family with children and pets.  Backyard 
interaction between the occasional downed bat and the children and pets won't 
be good.

4.   The current flight path is directly over this property.  Hawks, owls, 
and other predatory birds regularly hunt this area which could create numerous 
wounded and downed bats.

5.   At any given time there will be 1000 or more middle and high school 
age children living in the area.  Some of them will get curious and sneak 
over/under the fence to go check out the Bat Cave, or some of the other caves 
on the 700 acre BCI property.  This poses a big liability risk for BCI, as well 
as an injury risk for the kids.

6.   The lights from the subdivision will actually attract insects, which 
will in turn attract the bats, adding to the children & bat interactions.

We all know bats are friendly, beneficial creatures, and they generally won't 
bother people.  But we also know they do occasionally contract rabies, and in a 
population as large as Bracken Cave even million to one odds can occur 
frequently.  In fact with 10 million bats coming and going each day for 5-6 
months of the year that's possibly 3 Billion bat crossings over the subdivision 
each year.

I personally think that would be cool.  But not if I had 1 neighbors.

Kurt


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medi

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Mark . Alman]

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

 

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:

 

 

What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge
in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

 

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.

 

 

 

Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!

 

 

Inquiring minds just want to know.

 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

(I'm ducking under a table now) 

 

Mark Alman (not Minton)   J

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

 

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.
html

 

For more information and to learn how to help, go to
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-brac
ken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_med
ium=redirect. 

 

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue
in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember
that your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially
if received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and
their staff have time to read or at least review them. If you live in
the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council meeting is also
important.

 

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

 

George

 



George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Phil Winkler]

It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans, too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to live in that high rent area?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

Thanks for the interesting post, George.



I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:





What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from 
the Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street 
Bridge in Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?




The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I 
say, growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer 
than 800 to 900 yards.








Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and 
quartered and left in a pile of guano!






Inquiring minds just want to know.





Your thoughts?







(I'm ducking under a table now)



Mark Alman (not Minton)   J













From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave



http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html



For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect. 





San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this 
issue in one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, 
remember that your letters and e-mails will have much greater 
impact, especially if received before the meeting on the 29th so the 
mayor, councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least 
review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence 
at the council meeting is also important.




Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.



George





George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date: 05/22/13

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Stefan Creaser]

Those people are *taxpayers*, they should be allowed to live where they want so 
they can pay taxes to San Antonio!

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:37 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Very true, George. I hadn't thought of that.


Mark



From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ ESG - WSS - IRP; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.

San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your 
letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence at the council meeting is also important.

Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium. Thank you.

Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Jon]

They re not living IN the high rises.  They are living under the bridge.  
Under the bridge living is done all over (under) the major cities.
It's a whole different level of living.
 


 From: Phil Winkler 
To: Bill Bentley ; mark.al...@l-3com.com 
Cc: George Veni ; CaveTex ; New 
Mexico Cavers  
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
  


It's not easy. Most of them are just winging it. Some got bridge loans,
too.

At 5/22/2013 02:31 PM -0500, Bill Bentley wrote:

How can those bats afford to
live in that high rent area?
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
>
>
>mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>Thanks for the interesting post, George.
>
> 
>
>I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:
>
> 
>
> 
>
>What� the difference between houses �00 to 900�yards away from the
Bracken Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in
Austin, smack dab in the middle of downtown Austin?
>
> 
>
>The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say,
growing? And the buildings (read �igh rises� are much closer than 800
to 900 yards.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Just playing dumb here, so please don� advocate having me drawn and
quartered and left in a pile of guano!
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Inquiring minds just want to know.
>
> 
>
> 
>
>Your thoughts?
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>(I� ducking under a table now) 
>
> 
>
>Mark Alman (not Minton)   J
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: George Veni
[mailto:gv...@nckri.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
>To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
>Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat
Cave
>
> 
>
>http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
>
> 
>
>For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
>http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect
> . 
>
> 
>
>San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in
one week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that
your letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if
received before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor,
councilors, and their staff have time to read or at least review them. If
you live in the San Antonio, your physical presence at the council
meeting is also important.
>
> 
>
>Please share this message with anyone you think may be
interested.
>
> 
>
>George
>
> 
>
>
>
>George Veni, Ph.D.
>
>Executive Director
>
>National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>
>400-1 Cascades Avenue
>
>Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>
>Office: 575-887-5517
>
>Mobile: 210-863-5919
>
>Fax: 575-887-5523
>
>gv...@nckri.org
>
>http://www.nckri.org/
>
> 
>
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/
>Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3162/5847 - Release Date:
05/22/13 

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[Kurt L. Menking]

I agree we should let Jim weigh in on the bat biology issues... or the impact 
the people could have on the bats.

But there are many other issues:

1.   As George mentioned the subdivision is on the Edwards aquifer recharge 
zone.  Much of the runoff will wind up in the Cibolo creek, which is a major 
sinking stream recharge location.  Any contaminants will be quickly sent into 
the aquifer.

2.   There is critical endangered bird habitat all over the property.  
Recent Bird Surveys have verified many locations where the birds are using the 
property.  This property is also near a large military training facility whose 
mission is being limited due to their impact on the same endangered birds.  
It's not OK for the military to "bother" the birds with their training 
exercises but it is OK for a developer to mow down 1500 acres of critical 
habitat so they can build roads and houses.

3.   Much of this subdivision will be high density middle income style 
housing which will appeal to lots of family with children and pets.  Backyard 
interaction between the occasional downed bat and the children and pets won't 
be good.

4.   The current flight path is directly over this property.  Hawks, owls, 
and other predatory birds regularly hunt this area which could create numerous 
wounded and downed bats.

5.   At any given time there will be 1000 or more middle and high school 
age children living in the area.  Some of them will get curious and sneak 
over/under the fence to go check out the Bat Cave, or some of the other caves 
on the 700 acre BCI property.  This poses a big liability risk for BCI, as well 
as an injury risk for the kids.

6.   The lights from the subdivision will actually attract insects, which 
will in turn attract the bats, adding to the children & bat interactions.

We all know bats are friendly, beneficial creatures, and they generally won't 
bother people.  But we also know they do occasionally contract rabies, and in a 
population as large as Bracken Cave even million to one odds can occur 
frequently.  In fact with 10 million bats coming and going each day for 5-6 
months of the year that's possibly 3 Billion bat crossings over the subdivision 
each year.

I personally think that would be cool.  But not if I had 1 neighbors.

Kurt


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:31 PM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Mark,

That's a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I'll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist. 
However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region's primary water supply as well as having a much greater 
risk of degrading the quality of the water. While bats are getting the 
emphasis, this type of development is also bad for people who rely on the 
Edwards.

George


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org<mailto:gv...@nckri.org>
www.nckri.org<http://www.nckri.org>

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com<mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com> 
[mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM
To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

Thanks for the interesting post, George.

I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here:


What's the difference between houses "800 to 900" yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin?

The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read "high rises") are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards.



Just playing dumb here, so please don't advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano!


Inquiring minds just want to know.


Your thoughts?



(I'm ducking under a table now)

Mark Alman (not Minton)   :)






From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM
To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html

For more information and to learn how to help, go to 
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medi