Re: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows

2010-07-21 Thread Gill Edigar
I have noticed that on a lot of satellite imagery the water bodies
have been changed to a sorta pastel blue or green as a matter of
course. I assumed it was done to preclude stitching a bunch of images
taken on different passes (and times) and having impossibly different
reflective values due to sun and satellite movement. There could be an
algorithm to automatically do that when instructed.

--Ediger

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows

2010-07-21 Thread Don Cooper
Not to dismiss all these thoughtful considerations - but shadows on the
ground which surround these patches (of smooth and reflective water) can
only generally indicate "height of solar azimuth" on the ground.  Were there
high vertical towers in the same frame, one COULD determine both the
alignment of the sun and angle of the water surface perpendicular to the
satellite overhead (which is the also, the camera of course).

To capture the sun reflecting directly back into the camera from a water
surface would rely on the specific and rare alignment of these two things.
Yet on billions of frames recorded - it would not be a matter of  "luck",
but one of inevitability.

-WaVy

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Rod Goke  wrote:

> Checking sun angles, as Gill suggested, is a good idea. Notice that all of
> the recognizable objects (mostly trees and buildings) outside the ponds are
> casting shadows toward the north and perhaps slightly toward the northwest,
> suggesting that the photos were taken at or slightly before noon, when the
> sun was nearly overhead but somewhat south and perhaps slightly east of a
> directly overhead position. Notice also that practically all of the trees
> appear to be covered with green leaves, suggesting that the photos were
> taken sometime during the warmer months, when non-evergreens normally have
> green leaves. Therefore, the sun angle probably is higher in the sky than it
> would be during winter, but it's still low enough to cast some shadows
> towards the north.
>
>


RE: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows

2010-07-21 Thread Stefan Creaser
I was thinking, whilst in another boring meeting, that the shapes were actually 
artifacts of the compression algorithm used to convert the image from a 
undoubted hi-res image from the satellite to something one can download at 
speed to ones computer. Would possibly explain the regular shape as the 
compressor will, most likely, be scanning across the image with a box...

Cheers,
Stefan


-Original Message-
From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wed 7/21/2010 11:21 AM
To: Rod Goke; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows
 

Rod,

 

Are you seriously suggesting that somehow the satellite is Photoshopping this 
image? Being a Photoshopper myself, I hardly thing that's possible unless they 
have a Photognome in the satellite busily Photoshopping each image before you 
can pick it up on your computer. Oh-kay! Let's hear it for the speedy 
Photognomes!

 

Louise
 
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:06:17 -0400
> From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows
> 

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RE: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows

2010-07-21 Thread Louise Power

Rod,

 

Are you seriously suggesting that somehow the satellite is Photoshopping this 
image? Being a Photoshopper myself, I hardly thing that's possible unless they 
have a Photognome in the satellite busily Photoshopping each image before you 
can pick it up on your computer. Oh-kay! Let's hear it for the speedy 
Photognomes!

 

Louise
 
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:06:17 -0400
> From: rod.g...@earthlink.net
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Almagre -- clues in the shadows
> 
> Checking sun angles, as Gill suggested, is a good idea. Notice that all of 
> the recognizable objects (mostly trees and buildings) outside the ponds are 
> casting shadows toward the north and perhaps slightly toward the northwest, 
> suggesting that the photos were taken at or slightly before noon, when the 
> sun was nearly overhead but somewhat south and perhaps slightly east of a 
> directly overhead position. Notice also that practically all of the trees 
> appear to be covered with green leaves, suggesting that the photos were taken 
> sometime during the warmer months, when non-evergreens normally have green 
> leaves. Therefore, the sun angle probably is higher in the sky than it would 
> be during winter, but it's still low enough to cast some shadows towards the 
> north.
> 
> Don had an interesting suggestion that perhaps the two curious pools were 
> reflecting sunlight directly into the satellite camera, causing the image to 
> overexpose in these locations and, consequently, triggering some kind of 
> automatic post processing, which might inadvertently generate strange 
> artifacts in an attempt to compensate for the overexposure. What do the 
> shadows tell us about this theory? Since the sun was somewhat south and 
> perhaps slightly east of overhead when the photos were taken, the satellite 
> would have to have been somewhat north and perhaps slightly west of overhead 
> at the time in order to receive directly reflected sunlight from the pond 
> surfaces. If this were the case, the satellite would not be looking straight 
> down but, instead, would be looking somewhat southward, such that we would 
> see the north walls of nearby buildings in addition to their roofs. It 
> appears to me, however, that this is not the case and that the satellite is 
> actually looking directly down on the buildings just west of the eastern 
> pond. Furthermore, it would seem most reasonable that a satellite camera 
> would normally be aimed directly downward, because this would allow the 
> satellite to view its subjects more closely than would any other camera 
> angle. A satellite looking directly downward would not have received directly 
> reflected sunlight from a mirror-like pond surface, because the sun was not 
> directly overhead. Notice also that there appears to be another small pond 
> slightly northwest of the western curious pond and that this pond shows no 
> sign of either overexposure or strange structure. As much as I admire the 
> creativity of Don's theory, I don't think it's consistent with what we see in 
> the photos.
> 
> I agree with Gill that the western curious pond has an earthen dam on its 
> west side, but I'm not convinced of his Photoshop tampering theory. Photoshop 
> tampering is almost impossible to rule out completely, of course, since just 
> about any kind of image can be created that way. There is, however, some 
> shadow evidence suggesting that the images could be genuine. Notice that the 
> trees along the south edge of the western pond appear to be casting shadows 
> onto the southern portions of the pond's structured area. The eastern pond 
> has fewer trees along its south edge, but the trees that are there, likewise, 
> appear to be casting shadows onto the southern portions of this pond's 
> structured area.
> 
> Shadows of objects within the structures areas of the two ponds are difficult 
> to interpret, since we are not sure what these objects are. Without more 
> information about what we are observing, its difficult to distinguish shadows 
> from dark surfaces, and, of course, anything could result from Photoshop 
> tampering. There are, however, some shadow-like dark features within the 
> structured areas that look like they could be genuine shadows, given the 
> observed sun angle. For example, with the sun being somewhat south of a 
> directly overhead position and having very little east-west offset, we would 
> expect to see shadows along the north edge of any raised object but would see 
> little or no shadows along the east or west edges. Hence, shadows from 
> rectangular objects mostly would be expected to appear as dark horizontal 
> (east-west) lines in the photos, rather than dark vertical (north-south) 
> lines. It appears to me that this is the predominant trend in the structured 
> areas of both ponds (i.e., most of the dark shadow-like lines are horizontal 
> rather than vertical), suggesting that they could be genuine shadows. T