[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch? (Bill Gee)

[Graham Mullan]

Bill Gee said:

"My solution is to choose a map rotation early and stick with it, and also
to not put images on the map until almost the last step."

This presupposes that the cave will never be extended again, especially in
'unexpected' directions. Let us say that North up is chosen as a map
orientation. Let us then say that before the known cave has been completely
mapped a large extension is discovered that trends south-west. Then another
one is found elsewhere in the system that trends east. It may be that the
convenient orientation of the map will change during the course of the
project.

To Therion users this does not matter one jot as Therion will always rotate
stuff as required. And I don't know about anyone else, but especially in
complex projects I have always to return to .th2 files to tweak the exact
positions (and sizes, sometimes) of labels in order to ensure best fit in
the final drawing.

Thus I would always (if being forced not to use a PDA for some reason)
survey to use pages to their maximum extent and put up with the minor
inconvenience of reading sideways whilst drawing up scraps, 'cos whatever
you choose, arbitrarily, you will always be wrong at some point.

As an aside this is also in part why we try to generate the finished product
as a pdf directly from Therion rather than importing into another drawing
program as it cuts out the need to do parts of the job twice. The drawback
with this is that Therion is not quite yet as flexible as I would like,
notably in the management of colour and in the availability of different
fonts and text characters (ampersand, copyright symbol etc). I know - or
suspect - that some of these latter issues might be solvable in MetaPost,
but I'm a rubbish programmer who can just about cope with php and html but
no more.

Graham

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[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Bruce]

My comments written some years ago
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/do#plan_rotation discuss some other
implications and frustrations of sketch scan orientations and map output
rotations.  These days I just choose an orientation for the map before the
first survey of the cave system, and adopt that for all scans of survey
sketches and outputs.  Problems solved but flexibility lost.  For surveys
that do not conform, all is not lost, they are just trickier to process.

Martin
I don't think scrap size/length has much relationship to the number of
sketches in a th2 file. 
I always try to draw many short scraps (rather than few long ones) and 95%
of the time keep to one survey per th2 file.  But if for example I have
paper surveys (ie not PocketTopo) and that teams survey for the day is say
1km long, then there may be many separate scanned sketches inserted into
that file.  If I have n scans, I probably need to have at least n scraps,
but usually I will have many more than n scraps for reasons unrelated to the
number of scans/sketches.  

Bruce

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf
Of Martin Sluka
Sent: Saturday, 26 December 2015 11:51 a.m.
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

Wookey, and there is any reason to have more than one sketch in one file?
Just make shorter scraps :)

m.


> 25. 12. 2015 v 22:23, Wookey :
> 
> Exactly, and there is no way of rotating the interface, so if you have
> one sketch with the writing a different way up from the others, it's
> difficult to read. It would be nice to be able to rotate the whole
> drawing area whilst drawing scraps based on that sketch so that one
> can read the notes/labels.  Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't
> find one, last time I had this issue.

___
Therion mailing list
Therion at speleo.sk
http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Bill Gee]

Hello everyone -

I started this thread, so I think I need to jump in with some additional 
comments!  
:-)

For me, the starting point for the discussion is a project I am working on 
where 
there will be multiple maps produced from the same sketch data.  I am doing a 
set of maps in Therion, and another person (who is also the project manager) is 
doing a set using Xara/Walls/Compass.

I and two other sketchers have turned in drawings oriented so as to fit 
maximum passage on the page.  In some cases sketching at 1 inch = 20 feet, it 
is not possible to fit the sketch on the page unless north is some direction 
other than up.

When the project manager scans the sketches, he always scans them with 
up=north.  That makes it easier for him to lay out the backgrounds in Xara.  
However, it also means that comments, cross-sections, elevation profiles etc. 
are not "right-side up" for reading.  He is immensely bothered by this, and so 
has asked all of us doing sketch to always make up=north.

I have not agreed to this because 1) I think it is not necessary and 2) It 
severely 
restricts how much cave I can get on a sheet of paper.  Since I am no expert at 
cave survey, I decided to go to the group and see what other people think.

As others have commented, Therion does not care what the orientation of the 
background sketch image is.  As long as there are two or more survey stations, 
Therion will rotate and align things as needed.  Cross sections can be rotated 
by the alignment of the scale line, and elevation profiles usually have survey 
stations in them.  I can easily read notes in most orientations, and if it is a 
problem then I can open the background image in a regular image viewer and 
rotate for reading.

Martin's comments here and on the Therion web site illustrate that there are 
considerations regarding map rotation.  If the map is produced with north <> 
000, then some things will be off.  Embedded images are among them.  My 
solution is to choose a map rotation early and stick with it, and also to not 
put 
images on the map until almost the last step.

Bill Gee


On Saturday, December 26, 2015 09:11:51 Martin Sluka wrote:
> > 26. 12. 2015 v 5:53, Bruce :
> > 
> > but usually I will have many more than n scraps for reasons unrelated to
> > the number of scans/sketches.
> 
> Bruce, you are right, but I was answering to Wokey. It looks he has several
> sketches oriented to North and one or two oriented differently. So I wrote
> him to just make separate scraps from that sketches. Therion will rotate it
> appropriately.
> 
> Martin
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

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[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Martin Sluka]

Wookey, and there is any reason to have more than one sketch in one file? Just 
make shorter scraps :)

m.


> 25. 12. 2015 v 22:23, Wookey :
> 
> Exactly, and there is no way of rotating the interface, so if you have
> one sketch with the writing a different way up from the others, it's
> difficult to read. It would be nice to be able to rotate the whole
> drawing area whilst drawing scraps based on that sketch so that one
> can read the notes/labels.  Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't
> find one, last time I had this issue.

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Martin Sluka]

> 25. 12. 2015 v 21:33, Wookey :
> 
> Martin, you misunderstand my comment. I am talking about the
> labels/writing on the sketch drawing. If N is not up on the paper, but
> the scan is imported with N up, then the writing is
> sideways/upside-down in the xtherion editor, which can be quite
> tiresome.

Wookey,

I really don’t understand. Therion will import any sketch with orientation as 
it was scanned or photographed. How Therion will recognize where is north of 
sketch?

m.

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Wookey]

+++ Martin Sluka [2015-12-25 21:56 +0100]:
> 
> > 25. 12. 2015 v 21:33, Wookey :
> > 
> > Martin, you misunderstand my comment. I am talking about the
> > labels/writing on the sketch drawing. If N is not up on the paper, but
> > the scan is imported with N up, then the writing is
> > sideways/upside-down in the xtherion editor, which can be quite
> > tiresome.
> 
> Wookey,
> 
> I really don’t understand. Therion will import any sketch with orientation 
> as it was scanned or photographed. How Therion will recognize where is north 
> of sketch?

Exactly, and there is no way of rotating the interface, so if you have
one sketch with the writing a different way up from the others, it's
difficult to read. It would be nice to be able to rotate the whole
drawing area whilst drawing scraps based on that sketch so that one
can read the notes/labels.  Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't
find one, last time I had this issue.

(And this lack is presumably why the drawer in the original post asked
for sketchers to use N=up so that writing/notes/labels and N are consistently
aligned in the scans).

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Wookey]

+++ Martin Sluka [2015-09-23 22:38 +0200]:
> 
> > 15. 9. 2015 v 4:03, Wookey :
> > 
> > (which doesn't have a way of rotating the view to more easily read the
> > writing, for example (SFAICS)).
> 
> Wookey, in Therion if labels has not fixed orientation they are automatically 
> oriented to top of map. If North orientations is to top of the sheet too, it 
> is what that man needs. If you draw a particular map in Therion in any 
> direction it will be exported with North to top of page if not rotate in 
> layout is used.

Martin, you misunderstand my comment. I am talking about the
labels/writing on the sketch drawing. If N is not up on the paper, but
the scan is imported with N up, then the writing is
sideways/upside-down in the xtherion editor, which can be quite
tiresome.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Jonny Prouty]

In theory I try to be economical with my paper usage and align the passage
sketches such that they will nicely parallel the edges of the paper I'm
using. In the southeastern USA where I am this means that passages often
trend along NE/SW or SE/NW, so north would be rotated 45 degree (clockwise
or anticlockwise, depending on the passage) in the sketches. In practice
however, I most commonly just make north towards the top and then stuff
cross-sections into the awkward whitespace left over.

-Jonny

On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Martin Sluka  wrote:

> Wookey, and there is any reason to have more than one sketch in one file?
> Just make shorter scraps :)
>
> m.
>
>
> > 25. 12. 2015 v 22:23, Wookey :
> >
> > Exactly, and there is no way of rotating the interface, so if you have
> > one sketch with the writing a different way up from the others, it's
> > difficult to read. It would be nice to be able to rotate the whole
> > drawing area whilst drawing scraps based on that sketch so that one
> > can read the notes/labels.  Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't
> > find one, last time I had this issue.
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Martin Sluka]

> 15. 9. 2015 v 4:03, Wookey :
> 
> (which doesn't have a way of rotating the view to more easily read the
> writing, for example (SFAICS)).

Wookey, in Therion if labels has not fixed orientation they are automatically 
oriented to top of map. If North orientations is to top of the sheet too, it is 
what that man needs. If you draw a particular map in Therion in any direction 
it will be exported with North to top of page if not rotate in layout is used.

m.s.

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Wookey]

+++ Bill Gee [2015-09-14 19:48 -0500]:

> When you are drawing the sketch in the cave, is it normal to ALWAYS make north
> the same direction on each sheet of paper? 

No - whatever fits on the paper best is generally best (although if
surveying in one rarely knows how that will go unless you have a very
joint-controlled cave).

In practice I do almost always put North up (and 'up' up on elevations) as I
don't know which way the cave is going to go for more than a couple of legs.

> What is considered "best practice" in this regard?

Always marking 'N' and 'up' on the sketches so it's obvious.

> The man who is coordinating the project is also doing cartography using 
> Windows
> tools (Walls, Xara, etc.) He sent me an email today asking if I will commit to
> making all future sketches with north being the top of the page. He asks
> because some of the computer work he does results in portions of the sketch
> being upside-down and therefore more difficult to read.

That is probably true with most drawing tools, including xtherion
(which doesn't have a way of rotating the view to more easily read the
writing, for example (SFAICS)).

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/

[Therion] Best practice - orientation of original sketch?

[Bill Gee]

Hello everyone -

This is not really a Therion question.  It is more of a general survey 
question.  
Therion is sort of involved in the situation, though ...

When you are drawing the sketch in the cave, is it normal to ALWAYS make north 
the same direction on each sheet of paper?  What is considered "best practice" 
in this regard?

Background:

I have been helping with survey of a cave that has grown to slightly over 5000 
feet as of a week ago.  I have been both sketching and doing cartography.  
Therion is my weapon of choice!  :-)  

At least 6 people have done some part of the sketching in this cave.  All of us 
have oriented our sketches so as to best fit each section of cave onto the 
paper.  We always indicate north, but it can be any edge of the paper.

The man who is coordinating the project is also doing cartography using 
Windows tools (Walls, Xara, etc.)  He sent me an email today asking if I will 
commit to making all future sketches with north being the top of the page.  He 
asks because some of the computer work he does results in portions of the 
sketch being upside-down and therefore more difficult to read.

Thanks - Bill Gee
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