[Therion] easyer to handle?
On 2/8/08, Philip Schuchardt wrote: > For now, Therion is definitely the best thing out there. Not wishing to troll too much, but I would not be too quick to rule out tunnel. It is relatively user centric and is in active development. It is in a state where complicated plans can be produced. http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel Martin
[Therion] easyer to handle?
I glad that there are choices! Philip On Feb 19, 2008, at 2:03 PM, Martin Green wrote: > On 2/8/08, Philip Schuchardt wrote: >> For now, Therion is definitely the best thing out there. > > Not wishing to troll too much, but I would not be too quick to rule > out tunnel. It is relatively user centric and is in active > development. It is in a state where complicated plans can be > produced. http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Tunnel > > Martin > ___ > Therion mailing list > Therion at speleo.sk > http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
[Therion] easyer to handle?
Thanks Juergen for your feedback - we appreciate it a lot. Regards, S. Juergen Bohnert wrote: > Hi Stacho, > > you are absolutely right, Therion has the basic functionality that is > needed to keep a cave map up to date. And it is a reliable work horse. > > We should always remind ourselves that there is no other software that > has the flexibility of Therion combined with this platform-independent > and open source approach when it comes to cave cartography. > I repeat, no other! > Therion sets the high standard to which all other programs have to be > compared... > > CAD for caves is a nice piece of software, but it needs a non-open > source system (AutoCAD) which you can only obtain at a price that > prevents most cavers from buying it. > > Although the Therion GUI might be a bit old-fashioned, it still does the > job. It is not as fancy as AutoCAD and CorelDraw, but since I know both > programs I have to admit that it didn't take me much longer to get > accustomed to it. > > OK, I admit that the GUI could be a bit "renovated", but in my opinion > this is a mid- to long-term thing... function is more important than > look and feel. > > And since Therion is an open-source project every caver can contribute > to improving this software package > > And instead of creating completely new cave mapping software I would > rather prefer an approach of building modules within the Therion > framework which means at least using the Therion data format. > > Therion might not be the best tool for the casual cave cartographer but > it is definitely the best tool if you are into long-term GIS-based > mapping of complex cave systems with multiple entrances and frequent > survey shot changes e.g. based on refinement of already existing surveys > by radio location or loop-closure. Try that in AutoCAD... very > cumbersome > > Therion definetely closes the gap between conventional GIS, CAD and cave > survey visualization software... > > Regards, > > Juergen > > > > Stacho Mudrak schrieb: > > > Quoting Stefan Oswald : > > > >> We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, > which i > >> want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"... > > > > > > > > Thanks for your feedback. You are asking very difficult questions, > but I will > > try to answer... > > > > > >> It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software > engineers, > >> into therion, also i had great problems. > > > > > > > > You are right, but... > > > >> From time to time we get a crazy idea - that we will start > programming much > > > > more simple therion again from the scratch. But when we start to > analyze again all functionality that is definitely needed, > > we are not able to find data model, that is much more simple > > than current state. > > > > > >> The map editor user interface gives > >> many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same > with the > >> layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with > text and > >> so on. > > > > > > > > Well, I am afraid you will never get really good looking map with all > bells and > > whistles from therion. Our goal was to have a system, where we can have > > complete, up to date and very flexible documentation of the cave. For > this, we > > are now paying price of good looking cave map. But if you have > several tens of > > km cave with multiple levels and passages that connects to each other > - even > > schematic map in therion is a pain, not a precisely drawn map with > all the > > details... At least in our situation, when we do not have a lot of free > > time... > > > > > >> A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use > would be > >> much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version? > > > > > > > > The main problem of therion user interface is, that it is not > standard vector > > drawing interface. Here I 100% agree. But I am afraid - I have no > resources to > > start working on another CADlike interface. > > > >> In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will > exactly look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you > could immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, > take a look > >> at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. > >> just an idea. > > > > > > > > On Windows it is a problem of acrobat reader - I usually use > ghostscript, when > > I > > need check how it looks frequently. I have tried several times to control > > Acrobat Reader from xtherion - but without success. I do not know, > what is > > going wrong - but from version to version, Adobe Acrobat Reader has > different > > behaviour when controled from other program. > > > > I would like to add some features to xtherion in this case (e.g. > showing some > > symbols instead of simple dots). But it
[Therion] easyer to handle?
Hi Stacho, you are absolutely right, Therion has the basic functionality that is needed to keep a cave map up to date. And it is a reliable work horse. We should always remind ourselves that there is no other software that has the flexibility of Therion combined with this platform-independent and open source approach when it comes to cave cartography. I repeat, no other! Therion sets the high standard to which all other programs have to be compared... CAD for caves is a nice piece of software, but it needs a non-open source system (AutoCAD) which you can only obtain at a price that prevents most cavers from buying it. Although the Therion GUI might be a bit old-fashioned, it still does the job. It is not as fancy as AutoCAD and CorelDraw, but since I know both programs I have to admit that it didn't take me much longer to get accustomed to it. OK, I admit that the GUI could be a bit "renovated", but in my opinion this is a mid- to long-term thing... function is more important than look and feel. And since Therion is an open-source project every caver can contribute to improving this software package And instead of creating completely new cave mapping software I would rather prefer an approach of building modules within the Therion framework which means at least using the Therion data format. Therion might not be the best tool for the casual cave cartographer but it is definitely the best tool if you are into long-term GIS-based mapping of complex cave systems with multiple entrances and frequent survey shot changes e.g. based on refinement of already existing surveys by radio location or loop-closure. Try that in AutoCAD... very cumbersome Therion definetely closes the gap between conventional GIS, CAD and cave survey visualization software... Regards, Juergen Stacho Mudrak schrieb: > Quoting Stefan Oswald : > >> We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, which i >> want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"... > > > > Thanks for your feedback. You are asking very difficult questions, but I will > try to answer... > > >> It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software engineers, >> into therion, also i had great problems. > > > > You are right, but... > >> From time to time we get a crazy idea - that we will start programming much > > more simple therion again from the scratch. But when we start to analyze again all functionality that is definitely needed, > we are not able to find data model, that is much more simple > than current state. > > >> The map editor user interface gives >> many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same with the >> layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with text and >> so on. > > > > Well, I am afraid you will never get really good looking map with all bells and > whistles from therion. Our goal was to have a system, where we can have > complete, up to date and very flexible documentation of the cave. For this, we > are now paying price of good looking cave map. But if you have several tens of > km cave with multiple levels and passages that connects to each other - even > schematic map in therion is a pain, not a precisely drawn map with all the > details... At least in our situation, when we do not have a lot of free > time... > > >> A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use would be >> much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version? > > > > The main problem of therion user interface is, that it is not standard vector > drawing interface. Here I 100% agree. But I am afraid - I have no resources to > start working on another CADlike interface. > >> In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will exactly look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, take a look >> at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. >> just an idea. > > > > On Windows it is a problem of acrobat reader - I usually use ghostscript, when > I > need check how it looks frequently. I have tried several times to control > Acrobat Reader from xtherion - but without success. I do not know, what is > going wrong - but from version to version, Adobe Acrobat Reader has different > behaviour when controled from other program. > > I would like to add some features to xtherion in this case (e.g. showing some > symbols instead of simple dots). But it is only in TODO. > > >> Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD for Cavers >> (Autocad) would be an option. > > > > Yes, it would be great. But I am afraid - with the current state of the code in > xtherion, this is not possible... > > >> To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer for many >> people
[Therion] easyer to handle?
Quoting Stefan Oswald : > We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, which i > want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"... Thanks for your feedback. You are asking very difficult questions, but I will try to answer... > It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software engineers, > into therion, also i had great problems. You are right, but... >From time to time we get a crazy idea - that we will start programming much more simple therion again from the scratch. But when we start to analyze again all functionality that is definitely needed, we are not able to find data model, that is much more simple than current state. > The map editor user interface gives > many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same with the > layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with text and > so on. Well, I am afraid you will never get really good looking map with all bells and whistles from therion. Our goal was to have a system, where we can have complete, up to date and very flexible documentation of the cave. For this, we are now paying price of good looking cave map. But if you have several tens of km cave with multiple levels and passages that connects to each other - even schematic map in therion is a pain, not a precisely drawn map with all the details... At least in our situation, when we do not have a lot of free time... > A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use would be > much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version? The main problem of therion user interface is, that it is not standard vector drawing interface. Here I 100% agree. But I am afraid - I have no resources to start working on another CADlike interface. > In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will exactly > look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could > immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, take a look > at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. > just an idea. On Windows it is a problem of acrobat reader - I usually use ghostscript, when I need check how it looks frequently. I have tried several times to control Acrobat Reader from xtherion - but without success. I do not know, what is going wrong - but from version to version, Adobe Acrobat Reader has different behaviour when controled from other program. I would like to add some features to xtherion in this case (e.g. showing some symbols instead of simple dots). But it is only in TODO. > Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD for Cavers > (Autocad) would be an option. Yes, it would be great. But I am afraid - with the current state of the code in xtherion, this is not possible... > To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer for many > people using therion, not only in our club. This would be great, but it implies very deep changes in the system design and currently I have no resources to do that. When I started therion - I was single and student. Now I am married, I am working and I have three little children. I am really happy if I find time to fix bugs, add little features or go to the cave :) Best regards, S.
[Therion] easyer to handle?
Hi together, We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, which i want to report to you, we also have made a little "brainstorming"... It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software engineers, into therion, also i had great problems. The map editor user interface gives many options, but thereby it is not really easy to handle, the same with the layout. It is difficult to produce a good looking plan-layout with text and so on. A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use would be much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in final version? In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will exactly look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, take a look at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to therion. just an idea. Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD for Cavers (Autocad) would be an option. To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer for many people using therion, not only in our club. Glück Tief from stefan and the Höhlenbären caving club
[Therion] easyer to handle?
Stefan, I completely agree. I really like Therion and I've drawn large systems with it. In contrast of a user centric system, Therion is system centric, where the user must conform to the system. It is definitely takes more time and effort to develop a user centric system. I'm currently trying to develop a more user friendly cave drawing software, called Cavewhere (www.cavewhere.org). It's currently under heavy development and has a long long way to go. You can't even draw or enter a centerline. There are some major underlying design issues that I'm fixing right now. For now, Therion is definitely the best thing out there. Steelwool On Feb 8, 2008, at 7:09 AM, Martin Sluka wrote: > > On 8.2.2008, at 12:50, Stefan Oswald wrote: > >> We draw on therion in our caving club, but we have a few problems, >> which i want to report to you, we also have made a little >> "brainstorming"... >> >> It is always very difficult to introduce new people, no software >> engineers, into therion, also i had great problems. The map editor >> user interface gives many options, but thereby it is not really >> easy to handle, the same with the layout. It is difficult to >> produce a good looking plan-layout with text and so on. >> A generall icon-interface, such as most leading CAD programmes use >> would be much more efficient in our opinion. Is this planed in >> final version? >> >> In Therion you draw something and you do not know what it will >> exactly >> look like. For handling the Programm it would be easyer if you could >> immediately see the result without pressing F9, opening the .pdf, >> take a look at the result, close it again (Windows) and return to >> therion. >> just an idea. >> Also showing other scraps (.th2 files) in map editor, as with CAD >> for Cavers (Autocad) would be an option. >> >> To abstract we mean placing focus on usability would make it easyer >> for many people using therion, not only in our club. > > Hi Stefan, > > you are absolutely right, your arguments or wishes are evergreen from > the very beginning of therion. > > BUT, therion is a piece of software "as is". It was made by two men > (with help of several others). Both authors are very busy now and > there is no any space to rewrite for example xtherion map editor from > scratch. > > Another BUT - the format of data is open, the source code is > available. So there is theoretically no any problem to make new map > editor for therion. Wysiwyg, with menus, icons, etc., etc. AND > compatible with Linux, MacOSX and Windows. AND free. > > Good luck > > Martin > ___ > Therion mailing list > Therion at speleo.sk > http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
