Re: [Therion] mud!

[Rob Countess via Therion]

thanks footleg I'll try to download your symbol set and make it work in
therion. it sems like I'm getting a small clusters of cavers to start using
therion but we are all relative therion noobs and still figuring out some
basic stuff. I'll post if I need help.

On Saturday, August 19, 2017, Rob Countess  wrote:

> No prob. I totally understand. And it is funny because i'd be so happy to
> call clay mud but not the other way around...
>
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Bruce Mutton via Therion <
> therion@speleo.sk >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rob
>> Sorry for Laughing. You are right about the definition of and semantics
>> of clay.
>> To be honest it took me years to feel comfortable calling mud clay. And
>> not having mud or silt symbols.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung device, hence the typo's
>>
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>> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Therion] mud!

[Footleg via Therion]

I designed a UK symbol set for just this purpose. You can pull a copy from
the British Caving Association registry where I (and many other UK cavers)
publish and share our data. See the gb_layout.thc file in the Wookey
Catchment repo:

http://www.cave-registry.org.uk/svn/WookeyCatchment/

My project in that catchment is Swildons. So if you want to see how I
include it in a Therion project just download the data set and process the
thconfig-swildons_ent Therion project file in the Swildons folder.

Footleg

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 11:36 PM Wookey via Therion 
wrote:

> On 2017-08-14 11:51 -0700, Rob Countess via Therion wrote:
>
> > It would seem like a break in tradition to use a different symbol for
> mud. I've
> > been surveying caves for 20 years with this symbol. As far as I
> understood, we
> > were using British mapping symbols because of the large number of British
> > cavers like Mike Boon and Tich Morris, and others who came over because
> of
> > Derek Ford at McMaster University. I used to have a huge list of symbols
> with
> > this mud symbol included, I can't find anything to back this up several
> pages
> > deep on google. You will notice that the UIS calcite symbol is exactly
> the mud
> > symbol in Canada whereas our calcite symbol is connected scallops. Not
> sure if
> > this is based of some now defunct british symbols set.
>
> You don't have to draw your caves with the UIS sysmbol set. You can
> choose a different symbol-set if you prefer. As you say, the lack of a
> 'mud' sysmbol is a bit difficult for cavers of a UK mindset, but the
> UIS logic in just defining sediments by particle size does make some
> sense.
>
> Therion is quite happy for you to specify any sysmbol set you like, or
> to add a few extra sysmbols. (Most UK surveyors can't really get by
> without the 'slope arrow' symbol for example)
>
> Wookey
> --
> Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
> http://wookware.org/
> ___
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Re: [Therion] mud!

[Wookey via Therion]

On 2017-08-14 11:51 -0700, Rob Countess via Therion wrote:

> It would seem like a break in tradition to use a different symbol for mud. 
> I've
> been surveying caves for 20 years with this symbol. As far as I understood, we
> were using British mapping symbols because of the large number of British
> cavers like Mike Boon and Tich Morris, and others who came over because of
> Derek Ford at McMaster University. I used to have a huge list of symbols with
> this mud symbol included, I can't find anything to back this up several pages
> deep on google. You will notice that the UIS calcite symbol is exactly the mud
> symbol in Canada whereas our calcite symbol is connected scallops. Not sure if
> this is based of some now defunct british symbols set.

You don't have to draw your caves with the UIS sysmbol set. You can
choose a different symbol-set if you prefer. As you say, the lack of a
'mud' sysmbol is a bit difficult for cavers of a UK mindset, but the
UIS logic in just defining sediments by particle size does make some
sense.

Therion is quite happy for you to specify any sysmbol set you like, or
to add a few extra sysmbols. (Most UK surveyors can't really get by
without the 'slope arrow' symbol for example)

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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[Therion] Mud and clay

[Graham Mullan via Therion]

Rob Countess wrote:

" Well, in my mind, clay is a more specifically defined substance based on 
mineral content and particle size. Mud is larger particles, more organics, and 
less homogenous. Clay is what you make pots from and is less frequent in 
Canadian caves in my experience ..."

Clay is something more of a technical term and means a sediment with particle 
sizes in the range  0.98–3.9 µm. This is finer than silt and much finer than 
sand. Mud, on the other hand is not a technical term being defined as a mixture 
of 'earth' or 'dirt' and water. It is difficult to think of a circumstance 
where a symbol for mud might be required that isn't covered by clay, silt or 
sand unless you are looking at fairly recently deposited material with a large 
organic component which might be better considered as 'flood debris' and 
possibly too ephemeral to mark on a map?

Just my thoughts.

Graham


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Re: [Therion] mud!

[Bruce Mutton via Therion]

Hi RobSorry for Laughing. You are right about the definition of and semantics 
of clay. To be honest it took me years to feel comfortable calling mud clay. 
And not having mud or silt symbols.
Bruce
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Re: [Therion] mud!

[Rob Countess via Therion]

Well, in my mind, clay is a more specifically defined substance based on
mineral content and particle size. Mud is larger particles, more organics,
and less homogenous. Clay is what you make pots from and is less frequent
in Canadian caves in my experience, but I probably would have used our mud
symbol to draw it. I guess in my mind clay belongs to the set of mud not
vice-versa. Semantics I know but there is a reason I was so stuck on it. In
Canada we have been using a symbol for mud, see  link to a map of a
well-known cave:

http://www.canmorecavetours.com/images/Images/RNC_Map/CanmoreCaveTours-RatsNestCaveMap02.png
.

It would seem like a break in tradition to use a different symbol for mud.
I've been surveying caves for 20 years with this symbol. As far as I
understood, we were using British mapping symbols because of the large
number of British cavers like Mike Boon and Tich Morris, and others who
came over because of Derek Ford at McMaster University. I used to have a
huge list of symbols with this mud symbol included, I can't find anything
to back this up several pages deep on google. You will notice that the UIS
calcite symbol is exactly the mud symbol in Canada whereas our calcite
symbol is connected scallops. Not sure if this is based of some now defunct
british symbols set.

I see the UIS symbols have no mud symbol so I guess clay it is, even though
clay is not a standard UIS symbol just a member of the set clastic
sediments. Is that ASF symbols distinction that therion is using??

I guess you could say this is clear as mud eh?

Rob Countess
Canadian caver


On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:05 AM, Bruce Mutton via Therion <
therion@speleo.sk> wrote:

> Ha ha, what do you think mud is made of?
>
> Clay?  And a bit of water, but then most things on earth have a little
> water, so just stick with clay.
>
> Have a look at my interpretation
>
> https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/drawingchecklist
>
> Search for mud on that page.
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] *On Behalf Of *Rob
> Countess via Therion
> *Sent:* Monday, 14 August 2017 6:03 PM
> *To:* List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk>
> *Cc:* Rob Countess <rob.count...@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [Therion] mud!
>
>
>
> So, Still a therion noob despite having put all my data over. Finally
> working on cave maps not just line plots, thanks to a caving buddy who is
> leading the charge.
>
>
>
> So this seems strange but why is there no mud area symbol? I am sure
> someone else has already addressed this. I cant be the only person to
> survey in a muddy cave. Surprised really, my floor detail is usually sand,
> cobbles, mud, water or breakdown. I've never really had to use clay or
> debris. Can someone help put the mud into my cave maps? It seems like such
> a common and important floor area, can someone with the expertise make it
> so that mud just comes up on the drop down area list in map editor?
>
>
>
> Rob Countess
>
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>
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[Therion] mud!

[Bruce Mutton via Therion]

Ha ha, what do you think mud is made of?

Clay?  And a bit of water, but then most things on earth have a little water, 
so just stick with clay.

Have a look at my interpretation

https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/drawingchecklist

Search for mud on that page.

 

Bruce

 

 

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Rob Countess via 
Therion
Sent: Monday, 14 August 2017 6:03 PM
To: List for Therion users <therion@speleo.sk>
Cc: Rob Countess <rob.count...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Therion] mud!

 

So, Still a therion noob despite having put all my data over. Finally working 
on cave maps not just line plots, thanks to a caving buddy who is leading the 
charge.

 

So this seems strange but why is there no mud area symbol? I am sure 
someone else has already addressed this. I cant be the only person to survey in 
a muddy cave. Surprised really, my floor detail is usually sand, cobbles, mud, 
water or breakdown. I've never really had to use clay or debris. Can someone 
help put the mud into my cave maps? It seems like such a common and important 
floor area, can someone with the expertise make it so that mud just comes up on 
the drop down area list in map editor?

 

Rob Countess

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[Therion] mud!

[Rob Countess via Therion]

So, Still a therion noob despite having put all my data over. Finally
working on cave maps not just line plots, thanks to a caving buddy who is
leading the charge.

So this seems strange but why is there no mud area symbol? I am sure
someone else has already addressed this. I cant be the only person to
survey in a muddy cave. Surprised really, my floor detail is usually sand,
cobbles, mud, water or breakdown. I've never really had to use clay or
debris. Can someone help put the mud into my cave maps? It seems like such
a common and important floor area, can someone with the expertise make it
so that mud just comes up on the drop down area list in map editor?

Rob Countess
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