[tw5] Re: Idea: filter links

[Charlie Veniot]

There's definitely something brewing in that sponge of yours.  Not sure 
what it is, I'm thinking it is big and complicated, definitely interesting, 
maybe not all that easy to verbalize.

Not quite sure what questions to ask to draw my own picture in my head that 
matches the picture in your head.

But if you don't mind me sounding like a naysayer when I'm just really 
poking and prodding to figure out what you're thinking ...

A link is a wonderous thing.  It is simple, and it does what it does.  Why 
overload it with other purposes?

Buttons are great for invoking actions, maybe complex processing.

Making buttons look like links: very nice because it makes the button look 
less heavy visually, and a link just seems to beg (even more so than a 
button) a user to click on it (even if just to discover what it does).  

User-experience: So there's some interesting cognitive / 
user-interface-design stuff going on re buttons as link-look-alikes.  I 
suppose from user experience perspective, having links behave as buttons or 
other things, no biggie.

But from a "programming" perspective (i.e. editing the "code"), it needs to 
be quick and clear that something is indeed a link that takes us somewhere, 
versus something else is a button that performs some more "complicated" 
actions.  A button could be setup to behave like a simple link, but that 
seems like a heavy solution for what a simple link can do.

I'm rambling.  I must have needed it...



On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-3 Mat wrote:

> Thanks for your input.
>  
>
>> Maybe a silly question: why wouldn't you want the results of the filter 
>> to show right there where you clicked ?
>>
>
> That is definitely an idea. As I noted in my post, I was not sure what 
> should actually happen and I think your idea is neat also... but one could 
> question why one would want the label/link there to begin with then, 
> instead of just the list straight away? (It does remind me of my ol' 
> StretchText  concept.)
>
> I can't really generalize it into "a workflow". The idea came up as I was 
> typing some wikitext and it felt like it would have been a natural feature 
> in that very context... so I just felt it was justified to share to perhaps 
> spark interesting ideas.
>
> On a more general note; I do find that links occasionally need to do more 
> than just navigate. For example, there are times when a link should open a 
> specific *tab* in a tiddler. We are advised to use buttons *disguised* as 
> links for such stuff but I can't help bug feel the ubiquitous [[link]] is 
> somehow under exploited.
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: Idea: filter links

[Mat]

Thanks for your input.
 

> Maybe a silly question: why wouldn't you want the results of the filter to 
> show right there where you clicked ?
>

That is definitely an idea. As I noted in my post, I was not sure what 
should actually happen and I think your idea is neat also... but one could 
question why one would want the label/link there to begin with then, 
instead of just the list straight away? (It does remind me of my ol' 
StretchText  concept.)

I can't really generalize it into "a workflow". The idea came up as I was 
typing some wikitext and it felt like it would have been a natural feature 
in that very context... so I just felt it was justified to share to perhaps 
spark interesting ideas.

On a more general note; I do find that links occasionally need to do more 
than just navigate. For example, there are times when a link should open a 
specific *tab* in a tiddler. We are advised to use buttons *disguised* as 
links for such stuff but I can't help bug feel the ubiquitous [[link]] is 
somehow under exploited.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Idea: Filtered transclusion but as only the filter

[Charlie Veniot]

Oh for sure, I agree:  it is *very* pretty.

And subtle looking too, but then I quickly fall back into paralysis by 
analysis, thinking "but maybe that is too subtle": will it grab me by the 
jugular to let me know clearly what's going to happen right there, in the 
mist of everything above and below it?

So yeah, triple-curly brackets: ugly, but definitely quick to see what's 
going on.  ("Yup, there's a transclusion.")

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 5:04:07 PM UTC-3 Mat wrote:

> Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, I don't expect it to be anything doable, I 
> just figured it was a neat thought. The reason for the distinct triple 
> braces are, I must assume, to make it unique. If single square brackets 
> were used, I guess there'd have to be some additional condition on the 
> content between the brackets and I'm sure this would make things more 
> complicated.
> But still, it *would* be pretty me thinks ;-)
>
> <:-)
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:56:17 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> G'day Mat,
>>
>> Without knowing TW's guts, I'm tempted to say that kind of notation would 
>> get TW into a bit of notation overload (i.e. a notation meaning different 
>> things depending on the scenario/context, and maybe getting a little hard 
>> to differentiate between the scenarios/contexts.)
>>
>> That might be pushing successful parsing beyond limits.
>>
>> But it would take somebody in the nitty-gritty-know to chime in.
>> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-3 Mat wrote:
>>
>>> (Somewhat related to a post I just made about "filter links 
>>> ")
>>>
>>> Here's a syntactic idea: It would be neat if filters could be run 
>>> directly instead of having to be encapsultated in arcane triple braces 
>>> (arcanely called "filtered transclusion")? I.e instead of
>>>
>>> {{{ [tag[HelloThere]] }}}
>>>
>>> ...it could just directly be...
>>>
>>> [tag[HelloThere]]
>>>
>>> ...and the output from the filter is shown.
>>>
>>> AFAIK, a plain bracket link [[HelloThere]] is considered a filter, 
>>> evidently run to give the link. (But [title[HelloThere]] does not work.)
>>>
>>> <:-)
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Idea: Filtered transclusion but as only the filter

[Mat]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, I don't expect it to be anything doable, I 
just figured it was a neat thought. The reason for the distinct triple 
braces are, I must assume, to make it unique. If single square brackets 
were used, I guess there'd have to be some additional condition on the 
content between the brackets and I'm sure this would make things more 
complicated.
But still, it *would* be pretty me thinks ;-)

<:-)
On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:56:17 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> G'day Mat,
>
> Without knowing TW's guts, I'm tempted to say that kind of notation would 
> get TW into a bit of notation overload (i.e. a notation meaning different 
> things depending on the scenario/context, and maybe getting a little hard 
> to differentiate between the scenarios/contexts.)
>
> That might be pushing successful parsing beyond limits.
>
> But it would take somebody in the nitty-gritty-know to chime in.
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-3 Mat wrote:
>
>> (Somewhat related to a post I just made about "filter links 
>> ")
>>
>> Here's a syntactic idea: It would be neat if filters could be run 
>> directly instead of having to be encapsultated in arcane triple braces 
>> (arcanely called "filtered transclusion")? I.e instead of
>>
>> {{{ [tag[HelloThere]] }}}
>>
>> ...it could just directly be...
>>
>> [tag[HelloThere]]
>>
>> ...and the output from the filter is shown.
>>
>> AFAIK, a plain bracket link [[HelloThere]] is considered a filter, 
>> evidently run to give the link. (But [title[HelloThere]] does not work.)
>>
>> <:-)
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Idea: filter links

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day Mat,

When clicking on the link showing "pretty label", you want a related filter 
to show the resulting links in some tiddler that appears in the story river 
?

Maybe a silly question: why wouldn't you want the results of the filter to 
show right there where you clicked ?

I suppose I ask that because I can't stand bouncing around, but I am 
curious if you have an interesting workflow going on (versus a 
straight-forward and always-a1 personal preference.)

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:50:20 AM UTC-3 Mat wrote:

> I was typing some wikitext and hit a situation where it felt as if there 
> exists a direct solution in TW... but it doesn't. I wanted to create a link 
> that, when clicked, opens a filtered list of titles. Phrased in another 
> way; it would be *a filter with a label*, that is clickable to access the 
> filter output.
>
> This pseudo code should give the idea (even if the syntax doesn't exist):
>
> [[pretty label||my filter]]
>
> Yes, it is ambiguous what I mean with "to open" the list. Maybe some kind 
> of temporary tiddler is opened listing the titles? Or maybe the actual 
> filtered tiddlers are opened? Maybe a setting to specify which of those two 
> outcomes?
>
> Regardless, it should be doable with a macro but as I was typing it just 
> felt as if it was obvious that I could type a filter straight away with a 
> pretty label.
>
> I don't think filtered transclusion could do it because the template it 
> repeated for each output item, i.e
>
> {{{ [tag[HelloThere]] ||mytemplate}}}
>
> ...
>
> ...yeah, just sharing some thoughts...
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: Idea: Filtered transclusion but as only the filter

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day Mat,

Without knowing TW's guts, I'm tempted to say that kind of notation would 
get TW into a bit of notation overload (i.e. a notation meaning different 
things depending on the scenario/context, and maybe getting a little hard 
to differentiate between the scenarios/contexts.)

That might be pushing successful parsing beyond limits.

But it would take somebody in the nitty-gritty-know to chime in.
On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-3 Mat wrote:

> (Somewhat related to a post I just made about "filter links 
> ")
>
> Here's a syntactic idea: It would be neat if filters could be run directly 
> instead of having to be encapsultated in arcane triple braces (arcanely 
> called "filtered transclusion")? I.e instead of
>
> {{{ [tag[HelloThere]] }}}
>
> ...it could just directly be...
>
> [tag[HelloThere]]
>
> ...and the output from the filter is shown.
>
> AFAIK, a plain bracket link [[HelloThere]] is considered a filter, 
> evidently run to give the link. (But [title[HelloThere]] does not work.)
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: How make TW appear alive?

[Hans Wobbe]

Cade: 

I appreciate your interesting comments, perhaps because my age has advanced 
to the stage that my medical data is of much greater importance to me.  
Also, I have become much more cynical about medical practitioners who share 
data with the BigPharma oligopoly and the inevitable consequences of 
well-intended attempts to make all of a patient's data available on-line so 
that GPs and Specialist can share a holistic view of a patient.  

For my part, I am much more inclined to build by own repository of all my 
medical information and share it with just the practitioners I trust and 
select as care-providers.  This is particularly true now that the 
clinic-based GP I start with, suggests that I find my own specialists, that 
he can then refer me to, since the Administrative wait times are on the 
order of a year for a referral.

In that context, I am inclined to ask you "What are the impediments to 
sharing the ... cardiovascular Data ..." you have.  Particularly given that 
you already understand fine-grained design concepts and that is should be 
possible to use these to anonymize a selective view of the information.

Regards,
Hans


On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 11:18:29 PM UTC-4 Cade Roux wrote:

> I wish I could share the TWs we generate for our cardiovascular Data Mart 
> product here.  We generate the data dictionary/manual in a TW and all our 
> test outputs are in a few TWs organized by test groupings.  It definitely 
> satisfies 2 and 3, as far as 1, I am still tweaking it to be more and more 
> attractive and useful all the time.  We started off very simply because we 
> didn't want to commit too deeply down a path which would limit us from 
> retargeting our documentation to HTML or Word later.  However, as we 
> progressed, it was more and more accepted to start using TW features more 
> heavily as stakeholders started to get the hang of it, and there are some 
> fundamental aspects of TW which we have taken advantage of to solve 
> traditional problems in code/document generation:
>
> Transclusion means that we can have parts of the TW that are manually 
> edited and parts that are generated and that work can go along 
> independently with each feeding off the other, without requiring 
> significant synchronization between engineering staff and informatics staff 
> - changes to the code/rules can be done independent of editing the TW 
> template file independent of the data that is going to be imported from 
> JSON to fill out many lookup tables and generate necessary tiddlers and 
> indexes.  Normally with code/document generation, you have to decide 
> whether the template or the content is driving the design and what we've 
> found with TW is both are on pretty equal footing compared to past 
> techniques like in Excel or Word where areas have to be labeled and then 
> only designated labeled areas can be filled in and there really isn't 
> referencing back and forth.  And you have to decide where longer narratives 
> are stored and how they get combined in the document. And you have to 
> decide how to handle multiple passes so that you can embed generated 
> content in user content inside the generated content.  That is simple for 
> us, they are always in a tiddler, potentially itself transcluding generated 
> data, and it's all seamlessly handled by transclusion.
>
> Macros/filters mean that the document in many cases is data driven on its 
> own using TW features.  Typically in a Word or HTML document generation, 
> you would have to generate the index, often our indexes are not even 
> generated - they are tiddler list macros on tiddlers with dedicated 
> transclusion points for including manual edited tiddlers in appropriate 
> places.  Sure Word can generate a table of contents based on the heading 
> structure in your document.  That is nothing compared to what TW does for 
> us because of how we tag everything in custom fields and then can have all 
> kinds of options for organizing and displaying indexes of the same data.
>
> Tiddler grain - do everything at a small meaningful grain and tag/label 
> data fully in custom fields.  A lot of this could be done with an HTML site 
> generator, but TW has really saved a lot of work for us by us buying into 
> the TW philosophy of fine-grained tiddlers.  So we use custom fields and 
> tags and filters and generate tiddlers appropriately tagged for every 
> element of our Data Mart and then they merge seamlessly with manually 
> created tiddlers and index tiddlers which know how to group up different 
> tags.
>
> I know there are other tools we could have looked at, but based on what we 
> did with TW, I am not confident that we would have achieved what we did, or 
> as well, or as flexibly accommodating the ongoing releases of our Data Mart 
> as we curate more and more data, with any other product or technique.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cade
>
> On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 5:13:36 PM UTC-5 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm not 

[tw5] Idea: Filtered transclusion but as only the filter

[Mat]

(Somewhat related to a post I just made about "filter links 
")

Here's a syntactic idea: It would be neat if filters could be run directly 
instead of having to be encapsultated in arcane triple braces (arcanely 
called "filtered transclusion")? I.e instead of

{{{ [tag[HelloThere]] }}}

...it could just directly be...

[tag[HelloThere]]

...and the output from the filter is shown.

AFAIK, a plain bracket link [[HelloThere]] is considered a filter, 
evidently run to give the link. (But [title[HelloThere]] does not work.)

<:-)

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[tw5] Idea: filter links

[Mat]

I was typing some wikitext and hit a situation where it felt as if there 
exists a direct solution in TW... but it doesn't. I wanted to create a link 
that, when clicked, opens a filtered list of titles. Phrased in another 
way; it would be *a filter with a label*, that is clickable to access the 
filter output.

This pseudo code should give the idea (even if the syntax doesn't exist):

[[pretty label||my filter]]

Yes, it is ambiguous what I mean with "to open" the list. Maybe some kind 
of temporary tiddler is opened listing the titles? Or maybe the actual 
filtered tiddlers are opened? Maybe a setting to specify which of those two 
outcomes?

Regardless, it should be doable with a macro but as I was typing it just 
felt as if it was obvious that I could type a filter straight away with a 
pretty label.

I don't think filtered transclusion could do it because the template it 
repeated for each output item, i.e

{{{ [tag[HelloThere]] ||mytemplate}}}

...

...yeah, just sharing some thoughts...

<:-)

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