[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Ben H.

I am almost in the opposite position as you are now: I found TW a long ago, 
and now I am looking for another framework for desktop app building. The 
reason I leaved TW is because it re-renders the entire wiki too often to my 
needs and I have to tweak a lot of CSS in order to make it look like a real 
application instead of a wiki.

In any case, what can be done with TW is awesome. As mario said, have you 
checked the latest version of TiddlyDesktop? The application, which handles 
several windows, is not other thing than a tweaked wiki.
If you want to see something with a really different look and feel from TW, 
take a look at what I am working on for tiddlypouch documentation:



Regards

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Chris Dent]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 10:19:43 PM UTC+1, Ben H. wrote:
>
> Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be 
> better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"


If what you're after is tiddlers without the wiki then TiddlyWeb[1] may be 
what you want. It provides an HTTP and Python API for storing and 
manipulating tiddlers in a variety of interesting ways that enables a lot 
of the linking, addressing and including abstractions of hypertext.

It was originally developer to be the "mother of all server sides" for 
TiddlyWiki Classic but it very soon became clear that the way it presented 
tiddlers as first class resources in the system made it very powerful.

I continue to use it as a primary tool for building apps and other tools 
that require linking or transclusion of little bits of stuff.

It has an extensive collection of plugins[2] that let you add functionality 
on lots of different dimensions.

It is the framework that is underneath my current day to day wiki: 
https://tank.peermore.com/

One of the reasons I think it might be useful for you is that when people 
first start using it they often build to do applications or other personal 
information management systems.

[1] http://tiddlyweb.com
[2] 
https://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=tiddlywebplugins&submit=search

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[PMario]

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 2:16:09 AM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-7, Evolena wrote:
>>
>> Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the 
>> Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my 
>> needs"?
>>
>
> No, I definitely want to go beyond tweaking TW-Vanilla. 
>

I don't think, so. What you describe is much faster and much easier doable 
if you use the existing framework and just modify it. IOM what you want, is 
just some theme adjustments. As far as I can see it. 

You may also have a look at TiddlyDesktop. .. It's built, using a different 
framework, called http://nwjs.io/ ... It answers your question: "What if 
you could use tiddlers to build an  app?"

The TD client view is a "hidden" tiddlywiki. The level of abstraction used 
to make it happen, is a bit confusing. But that's not a technical problem :)

-mario 

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[PMario]

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 11:19:43 PM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:
>
> I am new to tiddlywiki, and have precious little experience with web 
> development in general.


hmm, The existing TW UI is all about plain HTML structure (with a twist) 
and CSS. ... 

As I wrote already. The existing TW UI is an application and a vision / 
philosophy. TW knows about themes and views. So everything you envision is 
already there. ... You just don't know, how to use it ... yet ;)

My perspective is that of someone looking for software with certain 
> functionality that I can use to build some apps I've been thinking about 
> for a long time. 
>

I think you found it. 
 

> I've looked at React, Reagent, Meteor, Angular, Om, re-frame, and dozens 
> of other libraries and frameworks. I liked a lot of the ideas behind many 
> of those, but none of them are close enough to what I envisioned to allow 
> me to adapt it to create something like what I envisioned. 
>

Yes, they are all interesting. But none of them is like TW. .. 

TW is designed to be used as a self contained, self replicating, single 
file Wiki. It can live without a server side backend. 

Most of the frameworks you describe have the server side in mind. Even if 
they don't tell you. Because the server software or the "build process" is 
part of the business model. It's like "Free to Play" for games. .. The 
basic functions are free, like in free beer but if you want to do real 
work, you'll need to enter the shop, in some way or the other. 

I came across TW several weeks ago, and was very excited to discover that 
> Tiddles are almost EXACTLY what I was looking for! The functionality of 
> Tiddles, being able to link, search, transclude, and hold any arbitrary 
> type of data, include metadata via fields, this is very nearly the precise 
> functionality I wanted from my small unit of information. 
>

Reading your vision and your next post, I think you are right. 
 

> Which is why I referred to TW Vanilla as a "default app": from my 
> perspective, the Tiddles and the wiki are two distinct things.


Nope. ... For TW everything is a tiddler. TiddlyWiki itself is build with 
tiddlers.

This mechanism adds some complexity, but it is the only reason, why TW is 
so flexible. So removing the complexity, by starting from scratch, may seem 
to be a nice goal at first. But in the end you'll end up, with something 
similar to what TW is at the moment. Trust me!

The TW layout can be modified by "end users" down to the basic core 
functionality with "themes" and "views". ... I don't know any other 
software, that gives "users" not "developers" so much power. You can have a 
look at youtube, how the TW UI changed over time. see: TiddlyWiki History 
 


> The wiki is simply one of the cool things that can be built from Tiddlers. 
> Earlier this week I was even sketching ideas for how one might use Tiddlers 
> to build an application with electron, by having each UI panel as a 
> separate $tw instance, and keeping their tiddle stores in sync. 
>

Syncing content is one of the most complex things, we try to do in the web 
era. .. Not because syncing is complicated. It's because the web is evil, 
and we need to deal with security instead of syncing :/
 

> Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be 
> better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"


In the original post (OP), you want to get rid of the system and shadow 
tiddlers. IMO at the moment, you can't get rid of them, without destroying 
the application. In TW they are part of the "programming language to create 
TW functionality". 

Just to be sure. TW knows themes, and views. ... So reading your hand 
written ideas, you want to go with your own theme, which can be completely 
different to the vanilla theme. You just need to know, what to do. TW also 
knows about "editions" see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Editions, 
https://youtu.be/7tRvAj1ZG9s?t=1056 and https://youtu.be/7tRvAj1ZG9s?t=1282

If you want to "separate your content from the application", you can use 
tiddlywiki with nodejs. see: 
http://tiddlywiki.com/#Installing%20TiddlyWiki%20on%20Node.js ... The 
nodejs server is intended to be used by TW developers, for local testing. 
IMO there isn't any security, if exposed to the web, but it should get you 
started locally. 

For additional info you may find this interesting: 
http://hangouts.tiddlyspace.com

have fun!
mario

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Jed Carty]

If you want to start with as few components as you can and build up I think 
it will be significantly more work than starting with an empty wiki and 
modifying it. It is in fact designed with exactly that purpose in mind. One 
of the first things I did to learn tiddlywiki was make a simple interactive 
fiction engine  using it, so it is a very 
flexible tool. That was a few versions ago and some features have been 
added that make that sort of thing even easier.

But, if you do want to rebuild tiddlywiki instead using it the way people 
have suggested, I think it would be an interesting project and if you share 
your progress I would like to see how you do things.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Ben,

Electron seems to just be a wrapper for packaging web apps to run as if 
they were native - it doesn't call the native gui directly to create 
windows like eg; mac gap (https://github.com/MacGapProject) but it does let 
you create native menus and popups. Should be fine - have you tried turning 
a TW into a desktop app with it? Did it work?

I don't really understand why you want to have separate Tiddlywiki's all 
showing up at the same time - how will the data in them be different? 
There's also no mechanism for passing messages between tiddlywikis in the 
way that you're imagining to keep them in sync, but it is quite possible to 
create a window like the one you're imagining where different panels show 
different views - onto the data within one tiddlywiki. 

" it doesn't make much sense to start out with a full-blown wiki and trying 
to mold it into something completely different."

Except that it does if you want to use tiddlyWIKI to make it with - whilst 
it's true that you can completely rewrite the UI for Tw as explained above, 
you would be most rash to throw any of the tiddlers away unless you're sure 
you know what it does. It's not really clear what you see the value of Tw 
as being to you - what bit of your app do you want it to do? Store the 
tiddlers? It stores them in a wiki-store, so you're already dealing with a 
wiki, essentially. Which bit is it that you think is wasteful? The editor? 
The filter functions? The save mechanism? You could take any of these 
pieces out but in my opinion it would be crazy to start doing that unless 
you really understand how tiddlywiki works in great detail. It's not very 
wasteful in general terms to leave everything in there, even if you don't 
use it all.

Maybe if you describe in more detail what you actually want to achieve we 
could tell you how feasible it is to do it by simply modding an existing 
edition? Have you seen TiddlyMap (http://tiddlymap.org/) for example?

Regards,
Richard


On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 10:19:10 AM UTC+10, Ben H. wrote:

>
> The image didn't embed properly. Lemme try again:
>
>
> 
>
>
> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 5:16:09 PM UTC-7, Ben H. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-7, Evolena wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the 
>>> Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my 
>>> needs"?
>>>
>>
>> No, I definitely want to go beyond tweaking TW-Vanilla. This here (if you 
>> can decipher my handwriting) is a page of notes I wrote out last night 
>> about how tiddlers could be used to build an app with electron: 
>> 
>>
>> A single panel could be a simple properties pane, or it could be a 
>> full-blown text editor, depending on what tiddlers you include. In either 
>> case, it doesn't make much sense to start out with a full-blown wiki and 
>> trying to mold it into something completely different.
>>
>> Mario, definitely put your experimental results in a repository or 
>> something. I'll make some clumsy attempts to monkey with it as well. 
>>
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

The image didn't embed properly. Lemme try again:




On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 5:16:09 PM UTC-7, Ben H. wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 2:34:58 PM UTC-7, Evolena wrote:
>>
>> Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the 
>> Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my 
>> needs"?
>>
>
> No, I definitely want to go beyond tweaking TW-Vanilla. This here (if you 
> can decipher my handwriting) is a page of notes I wrote out last night 
> about how tiddlers could be used to build an app with electron: 
> 
>
> A single panel could be a simple properties pane, or it could be a 
> full-blown text editor, depending on what tiddlers you include. In either 
> case, it doesn't make much sense to start out with a full-blown wiki and 
> trying to mold it into something completely different.
>
> Mario, definitely put your experimental results in a repository or 
> something. I'll make some clumsy attempts to monkey with it as well. 
>

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Mat]

Your writing reminds me of some things I've read from Chris Dent (CC) who 
was the lead developer for TiddlySpace and is (was?) very involved in 
TiddlyWeb and who now hosts Tank . 

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Evolena]

Maybe the right question is not "How do I separate the Tiddlers from the 
Wiki?" (tiddlers, not tiddles :) )but "How do I modify the UI to fit my 
needs"?

You can look at Jed's Stuff (http://ooktech.com/jed/externalbrain/#Dashboard) 
for example. It doesn't look like a wiki anymore, it's more of a blog. 
However, it still has the whole core component, it's only a lot of UI 
personnalization (and some plugins added or developped).

Le dimanche 30 août 2015 23:19:43 UTC+2, Ben H. a écrit :

>
> Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be 
> better phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

I am new to tiddlywiki, and have precious little experience with web 
development in general. My perspective is that of someone looking for software 
with certain functionality that I can use to build some apps I've been thinking 
about for a long time.

I've long been frustrated trying to find a task management program that worked 
exactly how I wanted it to. About 8-9 months ago I was sketching out ideas for 
what the ideal software might be, and came up with the idea of having these 
"boxes" that could hold any type of information, and which could be connected 
together however I saw fit, into a sort of node graph. Thinking about 
structuring information as a tree or node graph makes a great deal of sense in 
the way my mind works, so naturally I began thinking about how the UI could be 
described in terms of these graph nodes, and nodes could be reused in many 
places. I've been trying to find some sort of framework ever since that would 
allow me to create a single type of information flexible enough to hold all the 
different parts of a program, from the UI and logic to the users own data. I've 
thought about how such a system might be used to create anything from an email 
client to text editor. In fact, the only application I hadn't thought about was 
using such a system to create a wiki!

I've looked at React, Reagent, Meteor, Angular, Om, re-frame, and dozens of 
other libraries and frameworks. I liked a lot of the ideas behind many of 
those, but none of them are close enough to what I envisioned to allow me to 
adapt it to create something like what I envisioned. 

I came across TW several weeks ago, and was very excited to discover that 
Tiddles are almost EXACTLY what I was looking for! The functionality of 
Tiddles, being able to link, search, transclude, and hold any arbitrary type of 
data, include metadata via fields, this is very nearly the precise 
functionality I wanted from my small unit of information. 

Which is why I referred to TW Vanilla as a "default app": from my perspective, 
the Tiddles and the wiki are two distinct things. The wiki is simply one of the 
cool things that can be built from Tiddlers. Earlier this week I was even 
sketching ideas for how one might use Tiddlers to build an application with 
electron, by having each UI panel as a separate $tw instance, and keeping their 
tiddle stores in sync. 

Which is what brings me back to my original question, which might be better 
phrased as "How do I separate the Tiddles from the Wiki?"

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Ben,

Ironically, that's exactly the system we do have. On tiddlywiki.com you'll 
see that editing any tiddler displays a banner that says "Can you help us 
improve this documentation? Find out how 
 to edit this 
tiddler on GitHub 
"
  
- the fact remains that writing documentation is difficult and boring, 
however necessary, and we need to find a funner way to do it.

I agree with Mat(thais) that a wiki is the way to go and I agree with 
Mat(abele) that we should seed it with the best posts from here.

The great taboo question is - does the wiki need to be a tiddlywiki? Of 
course, it's super-cute that we can use tiddlywiki.com as it's own docs but 
if we want a secure multi-user wiki, we're much better off using something 
like mediawiki, surely?

Regards,
Richard



On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 8:14:31 AM UTC+10, Ben H. wrote:
>
> As far as documentation goes, just create a Github repository containing a 
> tiddlywiki that runs on node. That way anyone can edit the .tid files 
> (either through the wiki itself or with a text editor), and simply submit a 
> pull request with their changes. Periodically compile and upload that doc 
> to the web. 
>
> I'll respond to the rest shortly. 
>

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Matabele]

Hi

This forum acts as a FAQ of a sort for TW (I found whatever I needed by 
searching here.) A 'best of' precise of this forum in the form of a 
Wiki should prove useful. Perhaps, this could be constructed by asking the 
member who asked each question to summarise the best answer to their 
question in a Wiki?

regards

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 2:23:52 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Mat, Mario
>
> -I'm not fully qualified to give judgement - but from my limited 
>> perspective; What an absolutely wonderful writeup I propose it is 
>> somehow incorporated into tw.com.
>>
>
> Perhaps you could work together? Mat, you might be the perfect person to 
> expand Mario's outline into an article. Perhaps stitch it with the 
> background stuff I wrote to create an article called "How does TiddlyWiki 
> work?" and then publish it on Medium and on tw.com? (Actually, it should 
> probably be called "I looked inside the TiddlyWiki core and you'll never 
> believe what I found").
>
> The trouble is that discussions of improving the documentation at 
> tiddlywiki.com generally flounder into a technical discussion of the 
> means by which those updates could be made, and no writing takes place. 
> Perhaps it's better just to write out a handful of key background questions 
> that can trigger an interesting essay. Collaborate on it as a stream of 
> text on Google docs if you want.
>
> Then we can worry about incorporating the essay into tw.com afterwards; 
> the text-slicer tool I'm working on might useful if we got to that stage.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
>  
>
>>
>> Regarding:
>>  
>>
>>> So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every 
>>> single core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the 
>>> actual TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...
>>>
>>> Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside 
>>> TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we 
>>> will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create: 
>>> "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this 
>>> knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in 
>>> a consumable way. 
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ironically, we're working with the very type of tool invented for exactly 
>> this problem: A wiki. IMO it is not feasible for "some*one*" to document 
>> what you describe but rather it is a group effort (like Wikipedia) - but we 
>> would need the infrastructure for it. I expect this to much fall in place 
>> when the TWederation gets going, but a simple "solution" might be the 
>> "Public" 
>> component  of my 
>> TiddlerSidebar addon and the associated CommunityComments. This would let 
>> you get immediate documentation on the tiddler you're interested in. (I 
>> happen to know some things are in the doing that you don't expect so just 
>> maybe this will take a big step in due time. Can't say more right now.)
>>
>> <:-)
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
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> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

As far as documentation goes, just create a Github repository containing a 
tiddlywiki that runs on node. That way anyone can edit the .tid files (either 
through the wiki itself or with a text editor), and simply submit a pull 
request with their changes. Periodically compile and upload that doc to the 
web. 

I'll respond to the rest shortly. 

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Mat]

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 2:23:52 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Perhaps you could work together? Mat, you might be the perfect person to 
> expand Mario's outline into an article.
>

OMG... surely Jeremy is not referring to ME!? There is just so much in the 
question and answer that is lightyears beyond my level. This is what I 
meant when I said "I'm not qualified to..". What I AM qualified for is to 
study Marios article and ask the "stupid guy questions" until answers from 
you guys have evolved into something that people on my level can grasp. 
However, I'm not sure there is much point in this because people who need 
the explanation at my level are probably not qualified to do anything 
useful with it anyway. The context with bare-bone TWs is too technical to 
begin with. It would be like a detailed explanation of a car for a 10 year 
old; "This is called a cog wheel..." - it would be a very long explanation 
and the kid can't even use it anyway.

Regardless, even if I change my view on this (I'm currently in shock) it 
would still have to wait until I have more time for it as it would mean 
involving others to answer my questions and then I'd better get a finished 
product in the end or people would probably get upset for answering. 

...but, meta-ironically, what CAN be done... just possibly already now... 
is a wiki where both the questions and the answers are posted so that the 
document *gradually *grew into the documentation you ask for Jeremy. Even a 
non-conclusive document would be more meaningful than nothing. I'm 
hijacking Ben's thread here, but what IS currently the best solution for 
this? A tiddlyspot with shared passwords? A tiddlyspace including 
subspaces? The idea is something that is public.

If it reached a level where Jeremy feels it is decent enough to include on 
tw.com then great... until then it could perhaps be a tiddler on tw.com 
that merely links to the discussion. (even iframe it?). 

(I think I passed all stages of a trauma there; shock, confusion, denial, 
acceptance)

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat, Mario

-I'm not fully qualified to give judgement - but from my limited
> perspective; What an absolutely wonderful writeup I propose it is
> somehow incorporated into tw.com.
>

Perhaps you could work together? Mat, you might be the perfect person to
expand Mario's outline into an article. Perhaps stitch it with the
background stuff I wrote to create an article called "How does TiddlyWiki
work?" and then publish it on Medium and on tw.com? (Actually, it should
probably be called "I looked inside the TiddlyWiki core and you'll never
believe what I found").

The trouble is that discussions of improving the documentation at
tiddlywiki.com generally flounder into a technical discussion of the means
by which those updates could be made, and no writing takes place. Perhaps
it's better just to write out a handful of key background questions that
can trigger an interesting essay. Collaborate on it as a stream of text on
Google docs if you want.

Then we can worry about incorporating the essay into tw.com afterwards; the
text-slicer tool I'm working on might useful if we got to that stage.

Best wishes

Jeremy.



>
> Regarding:
>
>
>> So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every single
>> core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the actual
>> TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...
>>
>> Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside
>> TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we
>> will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create:
>> "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this
>> knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in
>> a consumable way.
>>
>
>
> Ironically, we're working with the very type of tool invented for exactly
> this problem: A wiki. IMO it is not feasible for "some*one*" to document
> what you describe but rather it is a group effort (like Wikipedia) - but we
> would need the infrastructure for it. I expect this to much fall in place
> when the TWederation gets going, but a simple "solution" might be the "Public"
> component  of my
> TiddlerSidebar addon and the associated CommunityComments. This would let
> you get immediate documentation on the tiddler you're interested in. (I
> happen to know some things are in the doing that you don't expect so just
> maybe this will take a big step in due time. Can't say more right now.)
>
> <:-)
>
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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Mat is absolutely right here. Building such documentation is not one man task. 
We need a wiki! But an actual wiki, not github pull requests that Jeremy have 
to join which will eventually be converted into part of a wiki. 

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Ben,

The easiest way to work to get the most basic "Hello World" version of TW
running under Node.js is with a single tiddler to replace the default page
template with whatever you want:

title: $:/core/ui/PageTemplate

Hello World

Producing a version of the $:/core plugin with fewer tiddlers isn't quite
so straightforward but entirely possible should anyone want to experiment
(I think we discussed it before).

Best wishes

Jeremy




On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:

> A modular tiddlywiky is something I asked about more than once(along a
> minified one) . To be honest, tiddlywiky is already modular, but there is
> no easy way to select "what do you need". The main problem is that
> tiddlywiky was not designed as a framework but an application. It would be
> cool to have the "core" as something similar to a library, or at least be
> able to select wich widgets and shadow tiddlers you would need.
>
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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

A modular tiddlywiky is something I asked about more than once(along a minified 
one) . To be honest, tiddlywiky is already modular, but there is no easy way to 
select "what do you need". The main problem is that tiddlywiky was not designed 
as a framework but an application. It would be cool to have the "core" as 
something similar to a library, or at least be able to select wich widgets and 
shadow tiddlers you would need. 

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Mat]

@pmario 

-I'm not fully qualified to give judgement - but from my limited 
perspective; What an absolutely wonderful writeup I propose it is 
somehow incorporated into tw.com.

Regarding:
 

> So if someone would sit down and describe how the content of every single 
> core tiddler (1218) works, we would have the "low level doc" for the actual 
> TW UI and its "may be" reusable blocks. .. BUT ...
>
> Since we, the TiddlyWiki Community, are not able to fund Erics "Inside 
> TidddlyWiki" documentation, which is a "TiddlyWiki User Manual", I doubt we 
> will be able to fund the low level docs, that would be needed to create: 
> "TiddlyWik the App Framework" documentation. So for the time being, this 
> knowledge will be beautifully hidden in some heads, but not written down in 
> a consumable way. 
>


Ironically, we're working with the very type of tool invented for exactly 
this problem: A wiki. IMO it is not feasible for "some*one*" to document 
what you describe but rather it is a group effort (like Wikipedia) - but we 
would need the infrastructure for it. I expect this to much fall in place 
when the TWederation gets going, but a simple "solution" might be the "Public" 
component  of my 
TiddlerSidebar addon and the associated CommunityComments. This would let 
you get immediate documentation on the tiddler you're interested in. (I 
happen to know some things are in the doing that you don't expect so just 
maybe this will take a big step in due time. Can't say more right now.)

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[PMario]

Hi Ben, 
I don't know your "web background" and it seems you are new to TW 
.
 
I try to start with high level info, but I'll go "geeky deep" very fast. So 
I hope you can digest them ;)

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 3:06:16 AM UTC+2, Ben H. wrote:
>
> I'm not trying to create a static page, I'm trying to start from a totally 
> blank canvas.
>

If you really want to go that way, you will need to dive very very ... very 
deep into the TW core. 

In TW everything is a tiddler. Even the core itself are tiddlers, that can 
be overwritten and modified one by one. 
See all the *.js tiddlers. This makes TW so extremely flexible. 
 

> The issue I have is the core contains a lot more than just a "library" of 
> tiddles you can use to build an application; it also contains an actual 
> application, the default tiddlywiki, and doesn't make it obvious where one 
> ends and the other begins.
>

That's right. 
 

> There are 1140 tiddlers in there, the majority of which define the ui and 
> functionality of the default app.
>

The actual v5.1.9 empty.html has 1218 shadow tiddlers. ... Which you name 
"the default app". Most of the time we name it "*vanilla TiddlyWiki*" or 
empty TW or empty.html

As I mentioned and you found out in TW everything is a tiddler. 

If you open the 
 - $:/ControlPanel and click the "Number of shadow tiddlers:" it will open 
the 
 - $:/AdvancedSearch shadow tiddler with the filter: 
[all[shadows]sort[title]]

It shows you the list of all 1218 shadow tiddlers. 

The above 2 tiddlers are part of vanilla TW, So basically you could remove 
them, which results in loosing the "advanced search" functionality and the 
TW Control Panel. .. This is true for every other TW functionality. 

--

If you go to $:/AdvancedSearch tiddler and you search for the term 
AdvancedSearch 
with the "shadow" tab selected you'll get the following results: 

$:/AdvancedSearch 
$:/core/ui/Buttons/advanced-search 
$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Basics 
$:/core/ui/SideBarLists

All those tiddlers are part of the advanced search functionality or call 
the button. If you open those tiddlers, you'll see, how vanilla TW builds 
the Advanced Search functionality. ... So it depends on you, if your "TW 
app framework" should contain this functionality or not. .. Be aware, that 
in the content there may be transclusions and <$:/list...>s, that may or 
may not be removable too. 

The existing TW UI is mainly built with <$:/list...> widget functionality 
to make it more dynamic. ... The very first versions of the PageTemplate 
used hard coded elements for most of the UI sections. ... So looking at the 
*alpha* and *bata versions*, the templates may be much simpler, but less 
powerful. ... eg: no multi language support. no dynamic page elements 
activated by tags ... and so on. 

That's great if you want to tweak the default app (which is pretty cool and 
> all), but a nightmare if you want to actually use TW as an application 
> framework, not just create a minor derivation of the default app.
>

IMO You can basically strip everything. Just keep:

 - all *.js tiddlers, since they provide the executable core. 
 - $:/core/ui/PageTemplate

So imo the minimum Page template is: 

Hello World

which will be completely useless because it removes the whole "vanilla TW" 
functionality.  BUT imo it's the *bare minimum core*. ... 

I didn't test it, but I definitely will create a stripped down version, 
since I'm interested, if a TW like this will start and display "Hello 
World" :) ... This version will be completely useless, so don't expect it, 
to be published. 

If you start studying the content starting from $:/core/ui/PageTemplate and 
if you understand every single bit of its content, you can work your way 
up, to understand the whole TiddlyWiki UI functionality. 

The TWs UI is built with widgets , which 
are the basic building blocks of functionality in TiddlyWiki. If you 
analyse the PageTemplate, and consult the tiddlywiki.com homepage, which 
describes every widget in detail, you can find and see every piece that 
builds "vanilla TW".  

*Low Level Warning!*
This journey is non trivial (and sometimes frustrating), since the existing 
TW UI is not only an application, it is also Jeremy's philosophy, how 
tiddlers should be presented. At least one version of it. So your philosophy 
how your application should look like may be completely different. So as I 
understand your post. You want to start from scratch. If you really want to 
do this, some hints, where I would start are following. ..

eg:  If you "advanced search" for:  PageTemplate you'll get the following 
results: 

$:/core/modules/startup/render.js<- look at this one: 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/startup/startup.js
 
$:/core/templates/static.template.html 
$:

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

I'm not trying to create a static page, I'm trying to start from a totally 
blank canvas.

The issue I have is the core contains a lot more than just a "library" of 
tiddles you can use to build an application; it also contains an actual 
application, the default tiddlywiki, and doesn't make it obvious where one 
ends and the other begins. There are 1140 tiddlers in there, the majority 
of which define the ui and functionality of the default app. That's great 
if you want to tweak the default app (which is pretty cool and all), but a 
nightmare if you want to actually use TW as an application framework, not 
just create a minor derivation of the default app.

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 3:14:46 PM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Ben
>
> I can reply more fully tomorrow, but have a look at:
>
> http://tiddlywiki.com/#Generating%20Static%20Sites%20with%20TiddlyWiki
>
> You'll see example templates that you can clone and adapt to your own 
> purposes.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
> —
> jeremy...@gmail.com 
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Ben H. > 
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I mean with Node. The empty one is far from empty; it has a story 
>> river and settings Tiddles and all sorts of stuff. I want to start with the 
>> absolute bare minimum, and add in all the stuff in the empty version only 
>> as needed. 
>>
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>>
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>>
>
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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Ben




I can reply more fully tomorrow, but have a look at:





http://tiddlywiki.com/#Generating%20Static%20Sites%20with%20TiddlyWiki





You'll see example templates that you can clone and adapt to your own purposes.




Best wishes




Jeremy



—
jeremy.rus...@gmail.com

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Ben H.]

Yeah, I mean with Node. The empty one is far from empty; it has a story river 
and settings Tiddles and all sorts of stuff. I want to start with the absolute 
bare minimum, and add in all the stuff in the empty version only as needed. 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Most basic "Hello World" version of TW?

[Jed Carty]

The bare minimum would be to just download the empty.html, open it in a 
browser and edit a tiddler. If you mean using node for it than I am not 
sure, someone else can hopefully tell you more about that one.

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