[tw] Re: Future Proofness

[Josiah]

Ciao Mark S.

The TW community is a sweet thing. Likely fragile if anything went 
turbulent. But the current Google / Github thing looks pretty stable.

At ROOT TW has longevity from what it IS & has long been. . A very 
sophisticated JavaScript webpage. Here is mainly commentary & refinement.

MO.

J, x



On Monday, 4 July 2016 22:57:25 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>
> The main problem I see, in terms of future-proofing, if you have followed 
> the tiddler-semantic-unit philosophy, is that when you export your tiddlers 
> they will be in little pieces that won't make sense to other information 
> managers. The workaround is to export via aggregate pages as static pages  
> -- that is, a tiddler that combines other other tiddlers can be exported as 
> a static web page.
>
> Speaking of future-proofing and Evernote, last week EN boosted it's 
> premium prices 40% and will be limiting it's free customers to 2 devices 
> (where a computer counts as a device). Google had a product called Notebook 
> which they then, in typical Google fashion, dropped. Then revived as Google 
> Keep. Springpad was very popular but was abandoned without notice. Before 
> Onenote, Microsoft had another note product which they also dropped.
>
> From all this you can see that the problem with proprietary solutions is 
> that there is zero transparency. You don't know if the company is making 
> money with a product, what they hope to charge in the future, or if they 
> plan to eventually sell themselves to some other company. You certainly 
> never get to correspond with the CEO or lead developer.
>
> There's a fair number of open-source information systems out there, but 
> most of them are virtually orphans. 
>
> The great thing about TW is right here -- the extensive and active 
> community. Should there ever be a reason to migrate (Like HTML25 requiring 
> personal quantum entanglers) it's likely that someone else will already be 
> working on various export options, and will be here to help you out. 
>
> Well, unless Google decides to do away with Groups, like they did RSS 
> news, Sketchup, Notebook, and 40 other services you can view in the Google 
> graveyard 
> 
>  
> .
>
> Good luck!
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 12:05:47 AM UTC-7, Bruno Wassermann wrote:
>>
>> Hi there, 
>>
>> I am a complete newbie to TiddlyWikki, the concept of small tiddlers 
>> interlinked in different ways resonates with me and I am considering to 
>> eventually migrate from Evernote to TW5. I am starting to understand that 
>> this might require a substantial investment, which has prompted me to try 
>> and understand the degree to which this time investment will continue to 
>> pay off in the future. 
>>
>> I know that there are many dimensions to this question (i.e. TW is open 
>> source and so anyone can contribute and continue to maintain it just in 
>> case, HTML5, JavaScript, wikitext, and so on are probably going to stick 
>> around for a while and so on). 
>>
>> However, I am trying to understand how painful it would be, if I ever 
>> decided, after moving and creating a few years' worth of notes into TW5, to 
>> migrate my notes to some other tool. 
>>
>> I am not so much at home with frontend technologies, so please forgive my 
>> ignorance when it comes to JavaScript and friends. 
>>
>> In the following snippet: 
>> <>
>>
>> a. What kind of animal is the 'list-links' element? Or, what is a tiddler 
>> macro?
>> b. Is the filter syntax specific to TW?
>> c. By what kind of animal do these guys get evaluated? 
>>
>> I have found 
>> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/wiki/macros/list.tid.
>>  
>> What does the actual flow look like from parsing a tiddler, to identifying 
>> that a macro should be invoked to actually invoking it? In addition, or 
>> alternatively, what would topics/concepts do I need to study to be able to 
>> make sense of this? 
>>
>> All the best, 
>>
>> -- Bruno
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Future Proofness

[Bruno Wassermann]

The argument that commercial tools do not offer a satisfactory (any) way to 
ensure the longevity of ones knowledge base is certainly true. I will begin 
to move part of my notes into TW and see how it feels when the rubber hits 
the road. 

Looking forward to HTML25 and quantum entanglers ;-) 

-- Bruno

On Monday, 4 July 2016 23:57:25 UTC+3, Mark S. wrote:
>
> The main problem I see, in terms of future-proofing, if you have followed 
> the tiddler-semantic-unit philosophy, is that when you export your tiddlers 
> they will be in little pieces that won't make sense to other information 
> managers. The workaround is to export via aggregate pages as static pages  
> -- that is, a tiddler that combines other other tiddlers can be exported as 
> a static web page.
>
> Speaking of future-proofing and Evernote, last week EN boosted it's 
> premium prices 40% and will be limiting it's free customers to 2 devices 
> (where a computer counts as a device). Google had a product called Notebook 
> which they then, in typical Google fashion, dropped. Then revived as Google 
> Keep. Springpad was very popular but was abandoned without notice. Before 
> Onenote, Microsoft had another note product which they also dropped.
>
> From all this you can see that the problem with proprietary solutions is 
> that there is zero transparency. You don't know if the company is making 
> money with a product, what they hope to charge in the future, or if they 
> plan to eventually sell themselves to some other company. You certainly 
> never get to correspond with the CEO or lead developer.
>
> There's a fair number of open-source information systems out there, but 
> most of them are virtually orphans. 
>
> The great thing about TW is right here -- the extensive and active 
> community. Should there ever be a reason to migrate (Like HTML25 requiring 
> personal quantum entanglers) it's likely that someone else will already be 
> working on various export options, and will be here to help you out. 
>
> Well, unless Google decides to do away with Groups, like they did RSS 
> news, Sketchup, Notebook, and 40 other services you can view in the Google 
> graveyard 
> 
>  
> .
>
> Good luck!
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 12:05:47 AM UTC-7, Bruno Wassermann wrote:
>>
>> Hi there, 
>>
>> I am a complete newbie to TiddlyWikki, the concept of small tiddlers 
>> interlinked in different ways resonates with me and I am considering to 
>> eventually migrate from Evernote to TW5. I am starting to understand that 
>> this might require a substantial investment, which has prompted me to try 
>> and understand the degree to which this time investment will continue to 
>> pay off in the future. 
>>
>> I know that there are many dimensions to this question (i.e. TW is open 
>> source and so anyone can contribute and continue to maintain it just in 
>> case, HTML5, JavaScript, wikitext, and so on are probably going to stick 
>> around for a while and so on). 
>>
>> However, I am trying to understand how painful it would be, if I ever 
>> decided, after moving and creating a few years' worth of notes into TW5, to 
>> migrate my notes to some other tool. 
>>
>> I am not so much at home with frontend technologies, so please forgive my 
>> ignorance when it comes to JavaScript and friends. 
>>
>> In the following snippet: 
>> <>
>>
>> a. What kind of animal is the 'list-links' element? Or, what is a tiddler 
>> macro?
>> b. Is the filter syntax specific to TW?
>> c. By what kind of animal do these guys get evaluated? 
>>
>> I have found 
>> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/wiki/macros/list.tid.
>>  
>> What does the actual flow look like from parsing a tiddler, to identifying 
>> that a macro should be invoked to actually invoking it? In addition, or 
>> alternatively, what would topics/concepts do I need to study to be able to 
>> make sense of this? 
>>
>> All the best, 
>>
>> -- Bruno
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Future Proofness

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

The main problem I see, in terms of future-proofing, if you have followed 
the tiddler-semantic-unit philosophy, is that when you export your tiddlers 
they will be in little pieces that won't make sense to other information 
managers. The workaround is to export via aggregate pages as static pages  
-- that is, a tiddler that combines other other tiddlers can be exported as 
a static web page.

Speaking of future-proofing and Evernote, last week EN boosted it's premium 
prices 40% and will be limiting it's free customers to 2 devices (where a 
computer counts as a device). Google had a product called Notebook which 
they then, in typical Google fashion, dropped. Then revived as Google Keep. 
Springpad was very popular but was abandoned without notice. Before 
Onenote, Microsoft had another note product which they also dropped.

>From all this you can see that the problem with proprietary solutions is 
that there is zero transparency. You don't know if the company is making 
money with a product, what they hope to charge in the future, or if they 
plan to eventually sell themselves to some other company. You certainly 
never get to correspond with the CEO or lead developer.

There's a fair number of open-source information systems out there, but 
most of them are virtually orphans. 

The great thing about TW is right here -- the extensive and active 
community. Should there ever be a reason to migrate (Like HTML25 requiring 
personal quantum entanglers) it's likely that someone else will already be 
working on various export options, and will be here to help you out. 

Well, unless Google decides to do away with Groups, like they did RSS news, 
Sketchup, Notebook, and 40 other services you can view in the Google 
graveyard 

 
.

Good luck!
Mark



On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 12:05:47 AM UTC-7, Bruno Wassermann wrote:
>
> Hi there, 
>
> I am a complete newbie to TiddlyWikki, the concept of small tiddlers 
> interlinked in different ways resonates with me and I am considering to 
> eventually migrate from Evernote to TW5. I am starting to understand that 
> this might require a substantial investment, which has prompted me to try 
> and understand the degree to which this time investment will continue to 
> pay off in the future. 
>
> I know that there are many dimensions to this question (i.e. TW is open 
> source and so anyone can contribute and continue to maintain it just in 
> case, HTML5, JavaScript, wikitext, and so on are probably going to stick 
> around for a while and so on). 
>
> However, I am trying to understand how painful it would be, if I ever 
> decided, after moving and creating a few years' worth of notes into TW5, to 
> migrate my notes to some other tool. 
>
> I am not so much at home with frontend technologies, so please forgive my 
> ignorance when it comes to JavaScript and friends. 
>
> In the following snippet: 
> <>
>
> a. What kind of animal is the 'list-links' element? Or, what is a tiddler 
> macro?
> b. Is the filter syntax specific to TW?
> c. By what kind of animal do these guys get evaluated? 
>
> I have found 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/wiki/macros/list.tid.
>  
> What does the actual flow look like from parsing a tiddler, to identifying 
> that a macro should be invoked to actually invoking it? In addition, or 
> alternatively, what would topics/concepts do I need to study to be able to 
> make sense of this? 
>
> All the best, 
>
> -- Bruno
>

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[tw] Re: Future Proofness

[PMario]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 8:38:48 PM UTC+2, Bruno Wassermann wrote:
>
> What kinds of changes to the 'runtime environment' of TW would necessitate 
> changes to its codebase?
>

Short: Basically none. 

---
Long: 
You can change the TW codebase, using TW itself. Sharing your content is 
possible in different ways. ... You got some links from Jed. Many 
contributors also use the TW github repositorys 
. 

The TW UI itself is built using wikitext. So you can see the power. ... 
However the TW UI wikitext is more complex, than what's needed for most 
users, because the TW UI needs to support multiple languages. The languages 
are plugins. So they can be switched live, if the plugins are installed. 
see: http://tiddlywiki.com/editions/full/index.html In my opinion this 
behaviour increases the TW UI source code quite a bit. ... To be fair: If 
you want to change the UI there is a relatively steep learning curve. (But 
it's still fun ;)

 

> For example, does a new version of Chrome or Firefox require the 
> maintainers of TW to modify TW to make sure it continues to work well? What 
> about the introduction of a new JS engine? 
>

short: sometimes ;)

--

long: imo 2 questions: 

a) New browser versions
b) New JS engine

add a)
I think the best example here is TWclassic . 
It is 10+ years old and still continuous to work well with the latest 
browsers. 
The history: http://classic.tiddlywiki.com/#History tiddler has some 
interesting links. ... So you see, that both the browser vendors and Jeremy 
+ the TW community did a good job to keep the content usable. 

HTML itself is highly standardized and "human" readable. So even if you 
only have a text editor, it would be possible to extract your content. ... 
It wouldn't be easy nor fast, but it would be possible!

add b)
If there is a new javascript engine, it needs to be backwards compatible, 
otherwise it won't get any adoption. The best example here is Microsoft's 
Edge browser. It has a completely new js-engine. ... Unlike IE - TW works 
great with Edge, without any changes in the source code. 



As you may have found out, browser vendors try very hard to increase 
security for web users. ... TWs main usecase is file based. So from time to 
time we are forced to use work-arounds or browser plugins to make the file 
save mechanism convenient. A simple file download, which we call "the 
fallback" mechanism, should always work in the future. ... But it's kind of 
inconvenient. 

So one good way to "force" browser vendors to deal with our needs is: *a 
strong and big Community*. If a big junk of the browser users rely on 
specific browser features, we need to make them aware! eg: with *useful *bug 
reports. ...

So everyone can help! ... HELP WANTED!

have fun!
mario

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[tw] Re: Future Proofness

[Bruno Wassermann]

Thanks a lot for the explanation and the links. 
I agree that learning how to make good use of TW will keep me entertained 
for a while, long before getting into its codebase. 

What kinds of changes to the 'runtime environment' of TW would necessitate 
changes to its codebase? For example, does a new version of Chrome or 
Firefox require the maintainers of TW to modify TW to make sure it 
continues to work well? What about the introduction of a new JS engine? 

-- Bruno

On Sunday, 3 July 2016 11:32:56 UTC+3, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> Here are some quick answers, ask more if you have other questions:
>
> a - In your example list-links is a wikitext macro. It is short hand that 
> is parsed and replaced by some wikitext which is in turn parsed and 
> converted into html which is displayed as the output.
>
> b - The filter syntax is specific to tiddlywiki. The way tiddlywiki 
> handles filters and lists is as important to how it works as the linking 
> and tagging.
>
> c - Tiddlywiki uses JavaScript so everything is evaluated in your browser 
> by the javascript engine.
>
> You don't have to understand anything about the parsing or javascript to 
> use tiddlywiki or to make complex applications with it, so you may want to 
> just look over some of the reference sites. Looking at how other people 
> have created things is probably the best way to learn.
> Looking through the code is probably your best bet for making sense of 
> everything if you want a deep understanding of it. If you want to 
> understand everything than you need some javascript, but there are plenty 
> of people who have learned javascript by playing with tiddlywiki so I don't 
> think that is too huge a task.
>
>
> Here is a list of some reference sites:
>
> http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/ - this is a community search 
> site that indexes a lot of other sites
>
> http://inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com (this one is mine, but I have been bad at 
> updating it)
> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Welcome
> http://twaddle.tiddlyspot.com/
>
> These are lists of other sites:
>
> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#References
> http://inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com/#Other%20Places%20to%20Look
>

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[tw] Re: Future Proofness

[Jed Carty]

Here are some quick answers, ask more if you have other questions:

a - In your example list-links is a wikitext macro. It is short hand that 
is parsed and replaced by some wikitext which is in turn parsed and 
converted into html which is displayed as the output.

b - The filter syntax is specific to tiddlywiki. The way tiddlywiki handles 
filters and lists is as important to how it works as the linking and 
tagging.

c - Tiddlywiki uses JavaScript so everything is evaluated in your browser 
by the javascript engine.

You don't have to understand anything about the parsing or javascript to 
use tiddlywiki or to make complex applications with it, so you may want to 
just look over some of the reference sites. Looking at how other people 
have created things is probably the best way to learn.
Looking through the code is probably your best bet for making sense of 
everything if you want a deep understanding of it. If you want to 
understand everything than you need some javascript, but there are plenty 
of people who have learned javascript by playing with tiddlywiki so I don't 
think that is too huge a task.


Here is a list of some reference sites:

http://erwanm.github.io/tw-community-search/ - this is a community search 
site that indexes a lot of other sites

http://inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com (this one is mine, but I have been bad at 
updating it)
https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Welcome
http://twaddle.tiddlyspot.com/

These are lists of other sites:

https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#References
http://inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com/#Other%20Places%20to%20Look

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