Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Thank you very much Watt, always looking for anything involving data tiddlers -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/90afd389-bcf4-4329-8078-370dc89a1c28%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Data dictionaries are quick and easy for simple databases-- easy to use so i promote them to beginning users of the TW's I customize but limited. so for the simple tasks they're suited for, they may not need further development. JSON tiddlers are better and not too much harder to figure-- been waiting for nested capabilities-- I'm about to unveil another mad workflow for batch creating tiddlers using a json tiddler... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/e4793090-2dad-4c5f-80ab-6668570a5dca%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Thanks for the reference there Tony! I'm just getting back to my Tiddlywiki work after a few months of other contracted work. I don't think my jsonmangler path syntax plugin worked the last time I tried it with 5.1.20, so I'll have to restart testing from there. Being able to render basic HTML "form layouts" and have a full widget/render tree supported inside of them (so you can then transclude other tidders full of UI wikitext) is definitely a goal here, and one I got working at the basic level in 5.1.19. If I run into any roadblocks I'll hop onto the github thread (seems like the best place for questions about jsona data tiddlers). More soon. Best, Joshua Fontany On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 6:29:22 PM UTC-7, TonyM wrote: > > Jeremy el al.. > > I think there is a strong argument to maintain an in tiddler dataset > mechanism for a number of applications within TiddlyWiki. With the proposed > depreciation of DataTiddlers. In one application I am building I have a > dozen "data" tiddlers" with values to feed field value selection. These do > not need their own tiddlers and to do so would confuse the search mechanism > because they will confuse the search results.Newer users will need to use > tags to unite independent data tiddlers until they learn how to group with > fields, over using the tags. > > I support the idea of encouraging the use of tiddlers instead of within > tiddlers however I believe there is a real gap we need to fix. At present > there is only one privileged namespace $:/ if you want to hide tiddlers > from the search you must use this prefix and then handle removing the > prefix when presenting to the user. If we could extend the namespace > handling we could have one for a dataset of related tiddlers. What if for > example the user could define an additional system namespace > "data:/datasetname" such that data would be found in > data:/datasetname/keyname and these would not appear in search, considered > system and could on setting a namespace of data:/datasetname could be > referenced as simply keyname. > > I would prefer rather than deprecate datatiddlers (non json) we call it a > key/value file and provide a few more tools to make this easy to use, Mario > has done some work on this recently. Going forward it could remain a > key/value tiddler that we do not extend its features. > > I use data tiddlers to log transactions for any give tiddler, and I do > extend its structure to define additional fields in the data payload. This > provides an "append text to the tiddler" method. > > I was also hoping that with the developments with the JSON editor > https://joshuafontany.github.io/TW5-jsoneditor/ > https://joshuafontany.github.io/TW5-jsoneditor/ we would actually see a > more sophisticated use of json within tiddlywiki in part to help with *data > and tiddler import and exports* but also constructing sophisticated data > models, multi-level for use in their own right but also to move to and from > jason and tiddlers. I would also like a in wiki tiddler compression, > perhaps even being able to export tiddlers in a zip file. This could allow > test data to be imported and regenerated as needed. > > Json and XML data is available all over the world and much for free, along > with csv files, So I feel these are great additions to tiddlywiki content > development. > > Regards > Tony > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 9:49:42 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >> >> Thanks Watt, the background on your use cases is interesting. >> >> The desire to reduce cognitive load by minimising the number of “visible” >> tiddlers is very understandable, but we now have a better mechanism in the >> shape of plugins. Under the hood, they accomplish the same thing: A plugin >> is a bundle of tiddlers that once activated become available as individual >> shadow tiddlers. >> >> To reiterate something I’ve said on the other thread: deprecation just >> means that a feature has been obsoleted by better ways of doing the same >> thing. Deprecated features aren’t removed, but no further enhancements will >> be made. So, we can only deprecate data tiddlers when we have better ways >> to address all (or nearly all) of the use cases. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Jeremy >> >> >> > On 13 Jun 2019, at 12:02, Watt wrote: >> > >> > Sadly, I've only just started using data tiddlers, having previously >> regarded them as esoteric tools for the wizards. They need better >> marketing. >> > I was getting very enthusiastic about them. 1 data tiddler potentially >> replacing 365 journal tiddlers, plus all the tiddlers linking to the >> journals. 1 data tiddler holding all the notes on a book. 1 data tiddler >> with contacts etc. On a single file wiki, on a phone, they do seem to save >> tiddler space and are easy to use. What's not to like? I was kicking myself >> for not using them from the start. >> > Sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in
Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Jeremy el al.. I think there is a strong argument to maintain an in tiddler dataset mechanism for a number of applications within TiddlyWiki. With the proposed depreciation of DataTiddlers. In one application I am building I have a dozen "data" tiddlers" with values to feed field value selection. These do not need their own tiddlers and to do so would confuse the search mechanism because they will confuse the search results.Newer users will need to use tags to unite independent data tiddlers until they learn how to group with fields, over using the tags. I support the idea of encouraging the use of tiddlers instead of within tiddlers however I believe there is a real gap we need to fix. At present there is only one privileged namespace $:/ if you want to hide tiddlers from the search you must use this prefix and then handle removing the prefix when presenting to the user. If we could extend the namespace handling we could have one for a dataset of related tiddlers. What if for example the user could define an additional system namespace "data:/datasetname" such that data would be found in data:/datasetname/keyname and these would not appear in search, considered system and could on setting a namespace of data:/datasetname could be referenced as simply keyname. I would prefer rather than deprecate datatiddlers (non json) we call it a key/value file and provide a few more tools to make this easy to use, Mario has done some work on this recently. Going forward it could remain a key/value tiddler that we do not extend its features. I use data tiddlers to log transactions for any give tiddler, and I do extend its structure to define additional fields in the data payload. This provides an "append text to the tiddler" method. I was also hoping that with the developments with the JSON editor https://joshuafontany.github.io/TW5-jsoneditor/ https://joshuafontany.github.io/TW5-jsoneditor/ we would actually see a more sophisticated use of json within tiddlywiki in part to help with *data and tiddler import and exports* but also constructing sophisticated data models, multi-level for use in their own right but also to move to and from jason and tiddlers. I would also like a in wiki tiddler compression, perhaps even being able to export tiddlers in a zip file. This could allow test data to be imported and regenerated as needed. Json and XML data is available all over the world and much for free, along with csv files, So I feel these are great additions to tiddlywiki content development. Regards Tony On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 9:49:42 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote: > > Thanks Watt, the background on your use cases is interesting. > > The desire to reduce cognitive load by minimising the number of “visible” > tiddlers is very understandable, but we now have a better mechanism in the > shape of plugins. Under the hood, they accomplish the same thing: A plugin > is a bundle of tiddlers that once activated become available as individual > shadow tiddlers. > > To reiterate something I’ve said on the other thread: deprecation just > means that a feature has been obsoleted by better ways of doing the same > thing. Deprecated features aren’t removed, but no further enhancements will > be made. So, we can only deprecate data tiddlers when we have better ways > to address all (or nearly all) of the use cases. > > Best wishes > > Jeremy > > > > On 13 Jun 2019, at 12:02, Watt > > wrote: > > > > Sadly, I've only just started using data tiddlers, having previously > regarded them as esoteric tools for the wizards. They need better > marketing. > > I was getting very enthusiastic about them. 1 data tiddler potentially > replacing 365 journal tiddlers, plus all the tiddlers linking to the > journals. 1 data tiddler holding all the notes on a book. 1 data tiddler > with contacts etc. On a single file wiki, on a phone, they do seem to save > tiddler space and are easy to use. What's not to like? I was kicking myself > for not using them from the start. > > Sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in one place. > Not TW philosophy I know but.. sometimes it's nice to be able to see all > your information in one place. Especially when it flows in a sequence. > > However, I don't have the job of maintaining them in the Core, so maybe > the problems outweigh these benefits, but imo 'if it ain't broke don't fix > it'. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com > . > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d10f10bc-ad12-4224-bc93-672b1d27bbe7%40googlegroups.com. > > > > For
Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Thanks Jeremy!
For any readers new to data tiddlers, here's an input box that should generate
a diary-ish data tiddler. This example is automatically indexed with timestamps
and you enter the diary event values; e.g 'got up', 'fed the cat' etc.
Paste this code into a tiddler called Diary, (the data entered should then
automatically save into a tiddler called diary_data).
\define addEvent()
<$action-setfield $tiddler='diary_data' $index=<>
$value={{$:/temp/dater!!event}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler='$:/temp/dater' name='' event=''/>
\end
Event: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/dater'
field='event'/>
<$button actions=<> >Add
{{diary_data}}
I lifted this from somewhere on the forum but unfortunately can't remember
where, apologies. I like it because it only requires 2 tiddlers, it's
uncomplicated and the data is easy to maintain. Yes, there are many other ways
to achieve the same thing with TW.
How to subsequently manipulate the diary_data values is the challenge that
complicates things. If you're interested several solutions are offered here;
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/Sxf51oIyhuE
PMario's solution requires an alteration to the core code, a 'Pull Request',
which is what prompted this discussion, but it doesn't look likely to happen
given the deprecation sentence.
TonyM's solution does work as is, but requires the pre-release TW.
For those interested there are many other examples of data tiddlers on the
forum and helpful usage tips exist on Mohammad's TWScripts site;
https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#datatiddler
As Jeremy says data tiddlers aren't going to disappear overnight and plugins
might very well appear that do the same job so it seems safe to continue to use
them for a good while yet.
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Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Thanks Watt, the background on your use cases is interesting. The desire to reduce cognitive load by minimising the number of “visible” tiddlers is very understandable, but we now have a better mechanism in the shape of plugins. Under the hood, they accomplish the same thing: A plugin is a bundle of tiddlers that once activated become available as individual shadow tiddlers. To reiterate something I’ve said on the other thread: deprecation just means that a feature has been obsoleted by better ways of doing the same thing. Deprecated features aren’t removed, but no further enhancements will be made. So, we can only deprecate data tiddlers when we have better ways to address all (or nearly all) of the use cases. Best wishes Jeremy > On 13 Jun 2019, at 12:02, Watt wrote: > > Sadly, I've only just started using data tiddlers, having previously regarded > them as esoteric tools for the wizards. They need better marketing. > I was getting very enthusiastic about them. 1 data tiddler potentially > replacing 365 journal tiddlers, plus all the tiddlers linking to the > journals. 1 data tiddler holding all the notes on a book. 1 data tiddler with > contacts etc. On a single file wiki, on a phone, they do seem to save tiddler > space and are easy to use. What's not to like? I was kicking myself for not > using them from the start. > Sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in one place. Not > TW philosophy I know but.. sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your > information in one place. Especially when it flows in a sequence. > However, I don't have the job of maintaining them in the Core, so maybe the > problems outweigh these benefits, but imo 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWiki" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d10f10bc-ad12-4224-bc93-672b1d27bbe7%40googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7FC9B3CA-A750-4221-AED7-01CFA53FE493%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Sadly, I've only just started using data tiddlers, having previously regarded them as esoteric tools for the wizards. They need better marketing. I was getting very enthusiastic about them. 1 data tiddler potentially replacing 365 journal tiddlers, plus all the tiddlers linking to the journals. 1 data tiddler holding all the notes on a book. 1 data tiddler with contacts etc. On a single file wiki, on a phone, they do seem to save tiddler space and are easy to use. What's not to like? I was kicking myself for not using them from the start. Sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in one place. Not TW philosophy I know but.. sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in one place. Especially when it flows in a sequence. However, I don't have the job of maintaining them in the Core, so maybe the problems outweigh these benefits, but imo 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d10f10bc-ad12-4224-bc93-672b1d27bbe7%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated
Data Tiddlers One simple point. Its BONKERS that you only get one field! Its so limited it blocks leverage to the evident needed more. JSON data is better,. but support is natively limited to simple structures. No data nesting natively possible. Comments Josiah On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 15:51:56 UTC+2, Mohammad wrote: > > Hi all, > There is a discussion here > https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/3971 > > where Jeremy explained data tiddlers may not be improved from TW 5.2.x > I would like to know what other users think? > > Jeremy well knows the pores and cons of this feature in the core! > > I think it is good to have a consolidated approach and I support JSON > tiddlers! > > I m not sure if both dictionary tiddlers and json tiddlers will not be > improved or this plan is > only for dictionary tiddlers! > > *Dont be worry!* > As Jeremy explained they will not be removed, THEY WILL NOT RECOMMENDED > NOR IMPROVED! > So, people may propose good plugins for these kind of stuffs. > > What is your idea? > Foe what application do you use data tiddlers? > Do you recommend to have these in the core? > > Cheers > Mohammad > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2f656ad6-4d07-4569-bff5-8763ab2426b0%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
