Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

Great thanks, when I'm on my next iteration i'll return to that issue, 
speak soon

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021 at 22:57:28 UTC+1 PMario wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 30, 2021 at 11:32:00 PM UTC+2 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> great thanks for clearing all that up!  I now have a much better idea of 
>> the ideas behind bundling. TBH I generally always need to go back to first 
>> principles to pick something up, so in order to understand the above I 
>> found it very helpful to go back to here: 
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/WzwNpnxycDQ
>>
>
> Yea, This was the initial thread, where we developed the idea and started 
> to develop definitions. Bundels are similar to plugins, but bundled 
> tiddlers are able to be deleted 
>
> Plugins create "shadow" tiddlers, that can be overwritten, to become 
> system tiddlers. If those system tiddlers are deleted, the "shadows" take 
> over again. ... This is one of the powerful basic TW principles. 
>  
>
>> (which I found via a link in the original discussion I first found about 
>> your bundler here: 
>> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/_Uqbg08Pjow/m/lmYj2ETxCAAJ)
>>
>> In that conversation we get introduced to some primordial topics like 
>> what is common between a plugin and a bundle, the importance of filtering 
>> to a bundle and so on -  so up-front discussion of some of what you've been 
>> trying to explain to me above. As and when I get to the stage of using your 
>> bundler plugin to sync my settings (a fantastic idea!), I'd be happy to do 
>> some work to collect/collate various salient parts of these discussions 
>> somewhere by way of documenation, as it seems to me there's quite some 
>> background required here
>>
>
> I did create an issue at github 
>  about ... more docs ;)
>
> have fun!
> mario
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[PMario]

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021 at 11:32:00 PM UTC+2 tony...@gmail.com wrote:

> great thanks for clearing all that up!  I now have a much better idea of 
> the ideas behind bundling. TBH I generally always need to go back to first 
> principles to pick something up, so in order to understand the above I 
> found it very helpful to go back to here: 
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/WzwNpnxycDQ
>

Yea, This was the initial thread, where we developed the idea and started 
to develop definitions. Bundels are similar to plugins, but bundled 
tiddlers are able to be deleted 

Plugins create "shadow" tiddlers, that can be overwritten, to become system 
tiddlers. If those system tiddlers are deleted, the "shadows" take over 
again. ... This is one of the powerful basic TW principles. 
 

> (which I found via a link in the original discussion I first found about 
> your bundler here: 
> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/_Uqbg08Pjow/m/lmYj2ETxCAAJ)
>
> In that conversation we get introduced to some primordial topics like what 
> is common between a plugin and a bundle, the importance of filtering to a 
> bundle and so on -  so up-front discussion of some of what you've been 
> trying to explain to me above. As and when I get to the stage of using your 
> bundler plugin to sync my settings (a fantastic idea!), I'd be happy to do 
> some work to collect/collate various salient parts of these discussions 
> somewhere by way of documenation, as it seems to me there's quite some 
> background required here
>

I did create an issue at github 
 about ... more docs ;)

have fun!
mario

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Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

great thanks for clearing all that up!  I now have a much better idea of 
the ideas behind bundling. TBH I generally always need to go back to first 
principles to pick something up, so in order to understand the above I 
found it very helpful to go back to here: 

https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/WzwNpnxycDQ

(which I found via a link in the original discussion I first found about 
your bundler here: 
https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/_Uqbg08Pjow/m/lmYj2ETxCAAJ)

In that conversation we get introduced to some primordial topics like what 
is common between a plugin and a bundle, the importance of filtering to a 
bundle and so on -  so up-front discussion of some of what you've been 
trying to explain to me above. As and when I get to the stage of using your 
bundler plugin to sync my settings (a fantastic idea!), I'd be happy to do 
some work to collect/collate various salient parts of these discussions 
somewhere by way of documenation, as it seems to me there's quite some 
background required here

thanks for taking the time

On Saturday, 27 March 2021 at 11:31:53 UTC PMario wrote:

> On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 12:30:11 PM UTC+1 PMario wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 4:47:41 PM UTC+1 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I'd already looked at and watched your video for your very impressive 
>>> bundler plugin, but I think I'm stuck at first principles again: I've 
>>> proved to myself that if I have a (standard) tiddler that lists other 
>>> (standard) tiddlers, and I drag that between TiddlyWikis, its a shallow 
>>> copy so doesn't copy the referenced tiddlers 
>>>
>>
>> That's the same for a test.bundle tiddler. It only contains links. _But_ 
>> it also contains an interface in the tiddler info menu, that provides a 
>> slightly different view. 
>>
>
> It should be the "tiddler info  menu" and not options. 
>
> -m
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[PMario]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 12:30:11 PM UTC+1 PMario wrote:

> On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 4:47:41 PM UTC+1 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
>
>> I'd already looked at and watched your video for your very impressive 
>> bundler plugin, but I think I'm stuck at first principles again: I've 
>> proved to myself that if I have a (standard) tiddler that lists other 
>> (standard) tiddlers, and I drag that between TiddlyWikis, its a shallow 
>> copy so doesn't copy the referenced tiddlers 
>>
>
> That's the same for a test.bundle tiddler. It only contains links. _But_ 
> it also contains an interface in the tiddler info menu, that provides a 
> slightly different view. 
>

It should be the "tiddler info  menu" and not options. 

-m

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Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[PMario]

On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 4:47:41 PM UTC+1 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
...

> I'd already looked at and watched your video for your very impressive 
> bundler plugin, but I think I'm stuck at first principles again: I've 
> proved to myself that if I have a (standard) tiddler that lists other 
> (standard) tiddlers, and I drag that between TiddlyWikis, its a shallow 
> copy so doesn't copy the referenced tiddlers 
>

That's the same for a test.bundle tiddler. It only contains links. _But_ it 
also contains an interface in the tiddler options menu, that provides a 
slightly different view. There is the possibility to delete single tiddlers 
and there is an "export button", that will save a test.bundle.json file 
that contains all the tiddlers listed. 

So if you drag and drop the .bundle tiddler to a different wiki, it does 
the exact same thing as TW does. ... Only if you export to JSON and then 
import that json file, you'll import all the exported tiddlers. 

There is also a new config "bundles" overview in the right sidebar. 

(though this must be different for plugin tiddlers since dragging a single 
> tiddler does precicely this, that's precicely a factor that defines these 
> as 'plugins'). So that's what I understand the principle of your bundler 
> is: it essentially creates a deep clone of the children when supplied with 
> a tiddler-consisting-of-links, am I close? 
>

Only if you export the configuration. So .bundle is only a config tiddler. 
 

> So, I would understand the process of using your bundler to capture 
> settings like so: i'd use the output of the overridden/system 
> advanced-search-filter tiddlers that you mentioned to manually create a 
> tiddler-of-links based on them, and then use that tiddler as the input to 
> the bundler, to deep-clone them to a bundle for import.
>

Yes. As written above. The .json file contains the bundle. ... The 
advantage is, that this bundle can also contain plugins. ... So it's an 
easy way to "Kickstart" an empty wiki, with all the settings and plugins 
you normally use. ... 

>From time to time, you only need to take care, that your plugins are up to 
date. ... After you made *backups *and *tested *the new plugins ;)
 

> But from watching your video I don't seem to have that process quite 
> right: your plugin seems more than that because, as you say, it seems to 
> facilitate making a custom filter to automatically remove the temp and 
> other tiddlers you mention above from the search results each time its run
>

That's not right. If you use the AdvancedSearch : Filter tab and you 
include eg: "$:/StoryList" "$:/state/tab--1498284803" "$:/temp/search" You 
can export them. .. BUT if you drag & drop this tiddlers.json into 
tiddlywiki.com you'll see, that you can't import those tiddlers. None of 
them. 

The bundler contains a new import interface, that will allow you to import 
those tiddlers. ... That's the new functionality. Blocking is default for 
standard TW. 
 

> - to whit: the input that drives your bundler is not a tiddler-of-link, 
> but is instead a filter expression.
>

The video only talks about the "tiddler-of-link" configuration. ... There 
is a second possibility, but that will be a new video, which doesn't exist 
atm.
 

> Am I right? But since some of these tiddlers-to-filter-out seem to just 
> need fully-specifying, I imagine the filter expression gets quite long, 
> Maybe I've misunderstood, I will investigate further.
>

Filtered bundles are for advanced users and for myself. There are usecases, 
where they are extremely useful and short. If they start to be complicated, 
the links-bundle is probably the better choice. ... But the important thing 
here is "choice" ;)

hope that helps
-mario

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Re: [tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

Thanks for the response!

Yes that really helps - I had indeed missed the overridden and system
tiddlers advanced search, and the haschanged filter will prove very
helpful, so thanks for taking the time

> Since it's tedious to redefine those lists all the time by hand

I'd already looked at and watched your video for your very impressive
bundler plugin, but I think I'm stuck at first principles again: I've
proved to myself that if I have a (standard) tiddler that lists other
(standard) tiddlers, and I drag that between TiddlyWikis, its a shallow
copy so doesn't copy the referenced tiddlers (though this must be different
for plugin tiddlers since dragging a single tiddler does precicely this,
that's precicely a factor that defines these as 'plugins'). So that's what
I understand the principle of your bundler is: it essentially creates a
deep clone of the children when supplied with a
tiddler-consisting-of-links, am I close?

So, I would understand the process of using your bundler to capture
settings like so: i'd use the output of the overridden/system
advanced-search-filter tiddlers that you mentioned to manually create a
tiddler-of-links based on them, and then use that tiddler as the input to
the bundler, to deep-clone them to a bundle for import. But from watching
your video I don't seem to have that process quite right: your plugin seems
more than that because, as you say, it seems to facilitate making a custom
filter to automatically remove the temp and other tiddlers you mention
above from the search results each time its run - to whit: the input that
drives your bundler is not a tiddler-of-link, but is instead a filter
expression. Am I right? But since some of these tiddlers-to-filter-out seem
to just need fully-specifying, I imagine the filter expression gets quite
long, Maybe I've misunderstood, I will investigate further.

I had actually seen the diff functionality on import, what I wanted at the
time though was a retrospective way to find the difference between 2 wikis
that had been seperately created over a long period of time. I haven't
investigated the structure of a tiddlywiki file but i'm sure it would be
possible to write an external tool to inspect each tiddler object for
comparison given an html, or I guess I could have exported an html-style
wiki into the node-style .tid format and just used a file diffing
tool...too late now ;-)

thanks again

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 at 10:05, PMario  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This may be interesting too! The "haschanged" operator, will show you the
> tiddlers that you have changed in "this" session.
>
> [image: advanced-search-filter.gif]
>
> -mario
>
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[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[PMario]

Hi, 

This may be interesting too! The "haschanged" operator, will show you the 
tiddlers that you have changed in "this" session.

[image: advanced-search-filter.gif]

-mario

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[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[PMario]

Hi Tony, 
I did _only_ read this post. 

I think there are some elements in TW that can help you to be more 
effective. 

In the ControlPanel : Info : Basics tab you can find this: 

[image: control-panel-info-basics.gif]
The "Number of overridden shadow tiddlers" can give you information about 
some "shadows" you have changed. eg: $:/SiteTitle, $:/SiteSubtitle, 
$:/DefaultTiddlers ... and so on. There are some $:/temp tiddlers, which 
you can ignore ;)

"Number of System tiddlers" will show them again and a lot more. Especially 
important are $:/config/... and may be 
$:/themes/tiddlywiki//options/... 

If you click the "search icon" the tiddlers are shown in AdvancedSearch : 
Filter tab. There you can export those elements. .. Since it's tedious to 
redefine those lists all the time by hand, I did create a plugin named: 
bundler . Which can help you 
to manager your settings. 

It will allow you to store your configurations as so called bundels. There 
is a link to the discussion 
 
about the new functions, which are also shown in the video. 

The $:/Import tiddler allows you to see the differences between existing 
tiddlers and imported tiddlers. .. This is already part of the core TW 
functions. 

1: Select the "Diff" option
2: Show the "diff - text" ... green is new text, red is removed text

[image: import-diff.gif]


have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

So i've achieved a base-level method to sync >1 wiki's settings, thought 
i'd reply to my own post in case this helps someone:

The fundamental thing about TiddlyWiki Tones assumed I completely 
understood above was that dragging a link to a tiddler from one TiddlyWiki 
into another (such that you get the import bar popup at the top of the 
screen), causes the contents of the linked tiddler to be imported (after a 
confirmation dialog). It doesn't matter whether the linked tiddler is 
text/images/settings/code/plugins. This is a fundamental and astonishing 
magic of TiddlyWiki, and though an inexperienced user might use and see 
this in action from instructions etc, it can be difficult to appreciate 
just how all-ecompassing this ability is.

So what's a 'link' to a tiddler? Well it can just be as simple as the name 
of the tiddler from your 'open' or 'recent' sidebar tabs, just drag any 
link from there from one TiddlyWiki into another (this works regardless of 
whether one of these TiddlyWikis is on the internet and the other is on 
your filesystem, or if both TiddlyWikis are using TiddlyDesktop, and so 
on...). But Tones was specifically talking about, for ease of collecting 
settings together, making a link to a tiddler IN ANOTHER TIDDLER: by either 
just stating the name of a system tiddler like 
$:/themes/TiddlyWiki/vanilla/metrics/storyright or linking to another 
tiddler name using the [[double square brackets]] notation. 

Another thing I guess Tones assumed I knew there was that every setting as 
you see them in a TiddlyWiki's control panel is stored each in an 
individual tiddler whose name is availble by just clicking on the setting 
name - this is an axiom of TiddlyWiki: we atomise individual things to 
individual tiddlers; so where I was worrying that i'd have to mass-copy all 
the setting in a TiddlyWiki's control panel (and that would include things 
like the wiki title which I don't of course want to copy), instead we come 
from the opposite trajectory: we look at the individual things that have 
changed from the standard settings and just drag the link to those (for 
instance the example I just gave: 
$:/themes/TiddlyWiki/vanilla/metrics/storyright - I changed the setting for 
'how far the left margin of the sidebar is from the left of the page' from 
an absolute value to a percentage). So its easy, once you know what you 
changed, to make a list of links.

Once I grokked those things, the first option Tones gave me above makes 
sense: 'make a tiddler with just links to other tiddlers and drag the 
links' - well really the level of automation i've got so far is pretty much 
that, though its a bit flowery as I've made a kind of diary of what 
settings I found I needed for what I consider my 'standard' style (and 
where I got the ideas from etc), and in each section, when I worked out for 
each setting what tiddler it relates to, I've put a link to the setting 
tiddler(s). 

So i've ended up with something a bit like the 'master-slave' relationship 
Tones was envisaging there, since I have a tiddler in a wiki that lists my 
'master' settings, and i'm using that tiddler for each new wiki I make. 
Since i'm not intending to create the industrial number of wikis he has, 
I'm happy with just that really: although I'd point out my 'diary' tiddler 
of settings is also a symptom of me not really finding a good answer to my 
other original question of how I can diff changes already made to >1 wiki: 
I couldn't do this programatically and just had to start again with a 
standard TiddlyWiki and customise it whilst documenting settings I changed 
- time consuming, but worth doing if only to realise that I hadn't actually 
changed that much

In terms of plugins, I didn't really list standard TiddlyWiki plugins in my 
'diary' tiddler, because they're just listed so very nicely in TiddlyWiki's 
plugins section already - so I found as long as I considered these things, 
I can just look at any of my existing TiddlyWiki's plugins pages and just 
copy it:
  * I had overwritten some 'shadow' tiddlers for a plugin or two, but I 
decided to just try to live without those customisations for ease of 
replicating plugins (its easier to know i'm using the stock plugin than 
potentially using something that includes prior customisations i've 
long-since forgotten I made)
  * there were some plugins I just decided I didn't need, just keep the 
list of installed plugins small
  * with codemirror, I just installed everything since I use a lot of 
things and installing everything is easier to remember than excluding the 
few things I don't need

As you can see this is all a very basic solution that reflects where i'm at 
with TiddlyWiki, in particular if my plugin needs were more complex it 
would be time to continue exploring Tones' options for automating 
synchonisation using bundlers/packages and so on, but I thought it worth 
documenting the basics. Tones' other options are all further enhancements 
of the 'list of 

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

i
On Wednesday, 28 October 2020 at 09:22:20 UTC Tony Woode wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Thanks everso for your replies, particularly thanks TW Tones for answering 
> my question with all those options, that's very good of you
>
> I was very much hoping we could not dicuss here WHY some of us need to 
> split our wikis up and not just have one master wiki, I'm sure even if you 
> can't see a need to do this, you can concieve of there being needs to do 
> this, just think of factors around security or privacy or sharing and so 
> on. I really wanted to discuss the HOW not the WHY
>
> TW Tones, I think you're overestimating my skills with TiddlyWiki (and 
> probably the skills of anyone finding this thread in future seeking to do 
> similar?).  I can see how there are many options to achieve what I want to 
> achive, but just as one instance: I tried to look at Mario's bundler plugin 
> (perhaps it is this? 
> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/_Uqbg08Pjow/m/lmYj2ETxCAAJ) but 
> my lack of domain knolwedge means I simply don't really understand what it 
> fundamentally does, despite trying to read what is available, I don't have 
> a clear view of what itch it even scratches? I have to say I'm not sure I 
> could do any of the options you suggest without at least a list of steps to 
> perform
>
> So perhaps my lack of abilities can actually help here to narrow down on 
> an options which might be relevant to me, I'm certainly not going to be 
> creating my own TW plugins for instance. It would be good if someone would 
> care at all to write me down a simple process I can follow, in as much 
> detail as you can bear, to do any or all of the following:
> 1) determine WHAT the changes are between two wikis, to allow me to work 
> out which setting might be 'newer'
> 2) apply settings changes from one wiki to another, just as TW Tones you 
> suggest: in a manner where you're asked for confirmation or some other way 
> you don't write over the most basic settings that shouldn't be overwritten 
> eg: wiki name
> 3) apply plugins from one wiki to another, so you have certainty that if 
> you compare two wikis, you know when both have the same plugin set
>
> I think another key difference you guys might be describing is where you 
> have a 'master' wiki and a large number of sub-wikis. This is not the case 
> for me, I have a small number of peer wikis and I never see it growing into 
> a large number. But if your use of a 'master' wiki is ONLY for a master set 
> of settings/plugins then perhaps I should do that? But I guess the same 
> applies: i'd need to know how to achieve the same 3 things
>
> Thanks again for taking the time
>
>
> On Saturday, 24 October 2020 at 08:09:07 UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Charlie/Tone and Lin
>>
>> Carlie, I think you have touched on a key differentiator between one wiki 
>> and the other, when you do a search do you want the other content to come 
>> up?
>>
>>- In other words you can store in one wiki all that you would like to 
>>find under than wiki name. 
>>
>>
>> As I said early you can search multiple wikis through an index system of 
>> Mohammads, You could even have an iframe open to the other wiki where you 
>> can refresh the index and drop it on the index wiki without leaving the 
>> tab. Or a tiddler open in the iframe with all the dragable tools listed.
>>
>> My practice
>>
>> I say I make a custom tag tool, after I make it work, I always package it 
>> in a JSON so it can be installed in other wikis, this includes a reference 
>> to the wiki in which it originates in, if I decide I want to change it. 
>> Every time I change it I save it under a folder on my LAN (with a set 
>> filename), every time I want to install something I open the LAN folder and 
>> type in a keyword and a list of JSON files appear, click and import.
>>
>> I used to have a TW5 Reference, it included references and resources, 
>> this year I duplicated it and deleted the resources in one and the 
>> references in the other, Now I have two wikis. I index both an places the 
>> index in another *index wiki* where I can search both at once if I loose 
>> something, however I do not usually because I know what I consider a TW5 
>> reference, and what I consider a TW5 resource, I even have another with all 
>> collected TW5 plugins.
>>
>> Now I have so many wikis and Projects I have built a method of collecting 
>> finished projects in another projects wiki, and I can drag a special 
>> project tiddler to my Index Wiki, and a special wiki tiddler to my index 
>> wiki. So it I loose something I can find it but I rarely loose anything.
>>
>> Say I have a set of data, I try and make sure I can select and save the 
>> data independently from the wiki (and my tools). So it can be exported and 
>> imported elsewhere if desired. This can be as simple of all the tiddler 
>> having a particular unique tag.
>>
>> I love TiddlyWiki
>> Tones
>>
>> On Saturday, 24 October 2020 14:08:21 UTC+11, Charlie Ve

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Tony Woode]

Hi all

Thanks everso for your replies, particularly thanks TW Tones for answering 
my question with all those options, that's very good of you

I was very much hoping we could not dicuss here WHY some of us need to 
split our wikis up and not just have one master wiki, I'm sure even if you 
can't see a need to do this, you can concieve of there being needs to do 
this, just think of factors around security or privacy or sharing and so 
on. I really wanted to discuss the HOW not the WHY

TW Tones, I think you're overestimating my skills with TiddlyWiki (and 
probably the skills of anyone finding this thread in future seeking to do 
similar?).  I can see how there are many options to achieve what I want to 
achive, but just as one instance: I tried to look at Mario's bundler plugin 
(perhaps it is this? 
https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/_Uqbg08Pjow/m/lmYj2ETxCAAJ) but my 
lack of domain knolwedge means I simply don't really understand what it 
fundamentally does, despite trying to read what is available, I don't have 
a clear view of what itch it even scratches? I have to say I'm not sure I 
could do any of the options you suggest without at least a list of steps to 
perform

So perhaps my lack of abilities can actually help here to narrow down on an 
options which might be relevant to me, I'm certainly not going to be 
creating my own TW plugins for instance. It would be good if someone would 
care at all to write me down a simple process I can follow, in as much 
detail as you can bear, to do any or all of the following:
1) determine WHAT the changes are between two wikis, to allow me to work 
out which setting might be 'newer'
2) apply settings changes from one wiki to another, just as TW Tones you 
suggest: in a manner where you're asked for confirmation or some other way 
you don't write over the most basic settings that shouldn't be overwritten 
eg: wiki name
3) apply plugins from one wiki to another, so you have certainty that if 
you compare two wikis, you know when both have the same plugin set

I think another key difference you guys might be describing is where you 
have a 'master' wiki and a large number of sub-wikis. This is not the case 
for me, I have a small number of peer wikis and I never see it growing into 
a large number. But if your use of a 'master' wiki is ONLY for a master set 
of settings/plugins then perhaps I should do that? But I guess the same 
applies: i'd need to know how to achieve the same 3 things

Thanks again for taking the time


On Saturday, 24 October 2020 at 08:09:07 UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:

> Charlie/Tone and Lin
>
> Carlie, I think you have touched on a key differentiator between one wiki 
> and the other, when you do a search do you want the other content to come 
> up?
>
>- In other words you can store in one wiki all that you would like to 
>find under than wiki name. 
>
>
> As I said early you can search multiple wikis through an index system of 
> Mohammads, You could even have an iframe open to the other wiki where you 
> can refresh the index and drop it on the index wiki without leaving the 
> tab. Or a tiddler open in the iframe with all the dragable tools listed.
>
> My practice
>
> I say I make a custom tag tool, after I make it work, I always package it 
> in a JSON so it can be installed in other wikis, this includes a reference 
> to the wiki in which it originates in, if I decide I want to change it. 
> Every time I change it I save it under a folder on my LAN (with a set 
> filename), every time I want to install something I open the LAN folder and 
> type in a keyword and a list of JSON files appear, click and import.
>
> I used to have a TW5 Reference, it included references and resources, this 
> year I duplicated it and deleted the resources in one and the references in 
> the other, Now I have two wikis. I index both an places the index in 
> another *index wiki* where I can search both at once if I loose 
> something, however I do not usually because I know what I consider a TW5 
> reference, and what I consider a TW5 resource, I even have another with all 
> collected TW5 plugins.
>
> Now I have so many wikis and Projects I have built a method of collecting 
> finished projects in another projects wiki, and I can drag a special 
> project tiddler to my Index Wiki, and a special wiki tiddler to my index 
> wiki. So it I loose something I can find it but I rarely loose anything.
>
> Say I have a set of data, I try and make sure I can select and save the 
> data independently from the wiki (and my tools). So it can be exported and 
> imported elsewhere if desired. This can be as simple of all the tiddler 
> having a particular unique tag.
>
> I love TiddlyWiki
> Tones
>
> On Saturday, 24 October 2020 14:08:21 UTC+11, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>>
>> That's an excellent question which, unfortunately, likely has answers 
>> that start with "It depends ..."
>>
>> Sometimes, it makes sense for a wiki to handle a bunch of things that 
>>

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[TW Tones]

Charlie/Tone and Lin

Carlie, I think you have touched on a key differentiator between one wiki 
and the other, when you do a search do you want the other content to come 
up?

   - In other words you can store in one wiki all that you would like to 
   find under than wiki name. 


As I said early you can search multiple wikis through an index system of 
Mohammads, You could even have an iframe open to the other wiki where you 
can refresh the index and drop it on the index wiki without leaving the 
tab. Or a tiddler open in the iframe with all the dragable tools listed.

My practice

I say I make a custom tag tool, after I make it work, I always package it 
in a JSON so it can be installed in other wikis, this includes a reference 
to the wiki in which it originates in, if I decide I want to change it. 
Every time I change it I save it under a folder on my LAN (with a set 
filename), every time I want to install something I open the LAN folder and 
type in a keyword and a list of JSON files appear, click and import.

I used to have a TW5 Reference, it included references and resources, this 
year I duplicated it and deleted the resources in one and the references in 
the other, Now I have two wikis. I index both an places the index in 
another *index wiki* where I can search both at once if I loose something, 
however I do not usually because I know what I consider a TW5 reference, 
and what I consider a TW5 resource, I even have another with all collected 
TW5 plugins.

Now I have so many wikis and Projects I have built a method of collecting 
finished projects in another projects wiki, and I can drag a special 
project tiddler to my Index Wiki, and a special wiki tiddler to my index 
wiki. So it I loose something I can find it but I rarely loose anything.

Say I have a set of data, I try and make sure I can select and save the 
data independently from the wiki (and my tools). So it can be exported and 
imported elsewhere if desired. This can be as simple of all the tiddler 
having a particular unique tag.

I love TiddlyWiki
Tones

On Saturday, 24 October 2020 14:08:21 UTC+11, Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
> That's an excellent question which, unfortunately, likely has answers that 
> start with "It depends ..."
>
> Sometimes, it makes sense for a wiki to handle a bunch of things that have 
> a lot of commonality/reuse-opportunity.  For example, I have one TiddlyWiki 
> that has content that is shared in various contexts/purposes/personalities:
>
>- Product Reviews 
>
> 
>- Urban Off Gridding for Laypersons 
>
> 
>- Hydro Bill Cutting for Laypersons 
>
> 
>- Chromebook: Beyond Web Browsing 
>
> 
>
> What originally started with a "how would I create a Product Reviews 
> TiddlyWiki" opened up reuse of info about those products into info about 
> using those products for various hobby projects.  All kinds of transclusion 
> delight going on there.
>
>
> Other times, the subject is so focused, so unrelated to other 
> writings/content with no commonality/reuse-opportunity, that it just seems 
> to make more sense to have a narrow-focused/independent TiddlyWiki.  For 
> example:
>
>- ADHD Slice'n Dice 
>
> 
>
> To me, wedging ADHD-related content/writing doesn't make any sense thrown 
> into my "Product Reviews (etc.)" TiddlyWiki.  In a somewhat 
> "distraction-free" writing spirit, I wanted that ADHD stuff neatly isolated.
>
>
> Cheers !
>
> On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 11:54:41 AM UTC-3, Lin Onetwo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, Tony and Tones,
>>
>> Why multiple wikis? I haven't reached that point, so I wonder the reason.
>>
>> Wouldn't that make transclusion and linking harder?
>>
>> I'm now putting different content in different Github repo, and clone 
>> then, symlink them into a "main" wiki, and only main wiki have plugins, 
>> other "sub-wiki" just have tiddlers.
>>
>> Sincerely
>> LinOnetwo
>>
>>
>> 在2020年10月22日星期四 UTC+8 下午5:42:03 写道：
>>
>>> Tony,
>>>
>>> With only 4 wikis (I have over 100), I would just do any change you wish 
>>> to make to one, and manually apply to others. There are neat and easy ways 
>>> to do this.
>>>
>>>- If in your master wiki you create a tiddler that lists (with links 
>>>of all the things that changed you flag for the other wikis) you can 
>>> just 
>>>drag and drop them on your other wikis.
>>>- You could export all the changes as a json file and drop that file 
>>>(or import it) to your other three wikis. You can then collect a set of 
>>>changes to drop on a 

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Charlie Veniot]

That's an excellent question which, unfortunately, likely has answers that 
start with "It depends ..."

Sometimes, it makes sense for a wiki to handle a bunch of things that have 
a lot of commonality/reuse-opportunity.  For example, I have one TiddlyWiki 
that has content that is shared in various contexts/purposes/personalities:

   - Product Reviews 
   

   - Urban Off Gridding for Laypersons 
   

   - Hydro Bill Cutting for Laypersons 
   

   - Chromebook: Beyond Web Browsing 
   

   
What originally started with a "how would I create a Product Reviews 
TiddlyWiki" opened up reuse of info about those products into info about 
using those products for various hobby projects.  All kinds of transclusion 
delight going on there.


Other times, the subject is so focused, so unrelated to other 
writings/content with no commonality/reuse-opportunity, that it just seems 
to make more sense to have a narrow-focused/independent TiddlyWiki.  For 
example:

   - ADHD Slice'n Dice 
   
   
To me, wedging ADHD-related content/writing doesn't make any sense thrown 
into my "Product Reviews (etc.)" TiddlyWiki.  In a somewhat 
"distraction-free" writing spirit, I wanted that ADHD stuff neatly isolated.


Cheers !

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 11:54:41 AM UTC-3, Lin Onetwo wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Tony and Tones,
>
> Why multiple wikis? I haven't reached that point, so I wonder the reason.
>
> Wouldn't that make transclusion and linking harder?
>
> I'm now putting different content in different Github repo, and clone 
> then, symlink them into a "main" wiki, and only main wiki have plugins, 
> other "sub-wiki" just have tiddlers.
>
> Sincerely
> LinOnetwo
>
>
> 在2020年10月22日星期四 UTC+8 下午5:42:03 写道：
>
>> Tony,
>>
>> With only 4 wikis (I have over 100), I would just do any change you wish 
>> to make to one, and manually apply to others. There are neat and easy ways 
>> to do this.
>>
>>- If in your master wiki you create a tiddler that lists (with links 
>>of all the things that changed you flag for the other wikis) you can just 
>>drag and drop them on your other wikis.
>>- You could export all the changes as a json file and drop that file 
>>(or import it) to your other three wikis. You can then collect a set of 
>>changes to drop on a new wiki if you get a 5th.
>>- One trick I like is to use an iframe in the child wikis, that opens 
>>the master wikis updates tiddler in an iframe,  you can actually drag 
>> items 
>>from in the iframe window and drop them on the wiki that the iframe is in.
>>- Mario has a bundler plugin you may like, one option allows you to 
>>select if you which to overwrite on import or not. This helps avoiding 
>>overwitting config tiddlers.
>>- I have created dragable packages installed in a master wiki that I 
>>can drag an drop as needed, and another collects all the plugins I come 
>>across, and I make sure I record the source. I often "disable" the plugin 
>>in this plugin repository to keep it clean. After dragging a disable 
>> plugin 
>>to a new wiki it becomes enabled in the new wiki.
>>
>> With a more complex situation like mine I have established workflow 
>> practices. I try and make sure my changes are comparable where ever I 
>> install them and have a quick and easy way to install as I need them. If I 
>> am in wiki 2 and I want to use my smart-code view I install it. I have some 
>> nice easy ways to find such tiddler packages on windows I can share. 
>>
>> The most sophisticated processes would be to bundle changes into a plugin 
>> and add them to a library not unlike the plugins add new plugins. The 
>> library facility allows you to trigger reinstalls. But this is still a 
>> little painful to achieve, and you need to serve the library via a server.
>>
>> I do not know who skins cats but there are many ways to do anything in 
>> tiddlywiki, and a vast majority need only wiki text, widget and macros. I 
>> suggest developing your own solution that you can evolve over time.
>>
>> Tones
>>
>> On Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 19:52:21 UTC+11 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all, much respect and adoration etc
>>>
>>> My use of TiddlyWiki is via TiddlyDesktop for personal (non-shared) 
>>> information only. I used to have only one wiki which I sectioned off into 
>>> different topics, but I have found reasons over time to split these wikis 
>>> up, so I now have 4 separate wikis (They aren't all located in a common 
>>> folder, but all 4 are accessible at the same

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[TW Tones]

Lin,

I build for purpose wikis and I know which to use for which purpose. I have 
done a lot of design effort, few have yet seen, because I am building 
platform tools rather than specific functional wikis, however I am soon to 
get the economies of scale and you will start seeing solutions/editions 
from me as well as developer and UI tools.

I have a massive resource library. So I have already learned dozens of 
inter wiki solutions, that someone else may be forced to address if they 
push too much into one tiddlywiki.

However like mobile apps, it is easy proliferate for purpose wikis and 
build a logical layer on top to manage anything.

Limited for purpose wikis, or larger consolidated wikis each have their 
place.

I basically package components for distribution as needed, use custom 
editions if needed and I have started data manipulation which I am building 
another set of generic tools for.

Mario's bundler plugin, Mohamad's utility Wikis and plugin libraries.

Mohammads Searchwikis plugin uses index (dataTiddler) to search multiple 
external Tiddlywikis. It has two parts

   1. An indexer, to build an index of all tiddlers in an external wiki
   2. A search tool to search indexes and display a link to a tiddler found 
   in an external wiki

I build ways to register and transfer project made up of multiple tiddler 
and indexes of wikis and their functions.

With TiddlyWiki there are few if any limits.
Regards
Tones



On Friday, 23 October 2020 01:54:41 UTC+11, Lin Onetwo wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Tony and Tones,
>
> Why multiple wikis? I haven't reached that point, so I wonder the reason.
>
> Wouldn't that make transclusion and linking harder?
>
> I'm now putting different content in different Github repo, and clone 
> then, symlink them into a "main" wiki, and only main wiki have plugins, 
> other "sub-wiki" just have tiddlers.
>
> Sincerely
> LinOnetwo
>
>
> 在2020年10月22日星期四 UTC+8 下午5:42:03 写道：
>
>> Tony,
>>
>> With only 4 wikis (I have over 100), I would just do any change you wish 
>> to make to one, and manually apply to others. There are neat and easy ways 
>> to do this.
>>
>>- If in your master wiki you create a tiddler that lists (with links 
>>of all the things that changed you flag for the other wikis) you can just 
>>drag and drop them on your other wikis.
>>- You could export all the changes as a json file and drop that file 
>>(or import it) to your other three wikis. You can then collect a set of 
>>changes to drop on a new wiki if you get a 5th.
>>- One trick I like is to use an iframe in the child wikis, that opens 
>>the master wikis updates tiddler in an iframe,  you can actually drag 
>> items 
>>from in the iframe window and drop them on the wiki that the iframe is in.
>>- Mario has a bundler plugin you may like, one option allows you to 
>>select if you which to overwrite on import or not. This helps avoiding 
>>overwitting config tiddlers.
>>- I have created dragable packages installed in a master wiki that I 
>>can drag an drop as needed, and another collects all the plugins I come 
>>across, and I make sure I record the source. I often "disable" the plugin 
>>in this plugin repository to keep it clean. After dragging a disable 
>> plugin 
>>to a new wiki it becomes enabled in the new wiki.
>>
>> With a more complex situation like mine I have established workflow 
>> practices. I try and make sure my changes are comparable where ever I 
>> install them and have a quick and easy way to install as I need them. If I 
>> am in wiki 2 and I want to use my smart-code view I install it. I have some 
>> nice easy ways to find such tiddler packages on windows I can share. 
>>
>> The most sophisticated processes would be to bundle changes into a plugin 
>> and add them to a library not unlike the plugins add new plugins. The 
>> library facility allows you to trigger reinstalls. But this is still a 
>> little painful to achieve, and you need to serve the library via a server.
>>
>> I do not know who skins cats but there are many ways to do anything in 
>> tiddlywiki, and a vast majority need only wiki text, widget and macros. I 
>> suggest developing your own solution that you can evolve over time.
>>
>> Tones
>>
>> On Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 19:52:21 UTC+11 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all, much respect and adoration etc
>>>
>>> My use of TiddlyWiki is via TiddlyDesktop for personal (non-shared) 
>>> information only. I used to have only one wiki which I sectioned off into 
>>> different topics, but I have found reasons over time to split these wikis 
>>> up, so I now have 4 separate wikis (They aren't all located in a common 
>>> folder, but all 4 are accessible at the same time from a single machine)
>>>
>>> Every so often, I take a look at new plugins or tweak my settings in one 
>>> of these wikis, and I find amazing and helpful things that become part of 
>>> the wiki
>>>
>>> You can see where this is

[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[Lin Onetwo]

Hi, Tony and Tones,

Why multiple wikis? I haven't reached that point, so I wonder the reason.

Wouldn't that make transclusion and linking harder?

I'm now putting different content in different Github repo, and clone then, 
symlink them into a "main" wiki, and only main wiki have plugins, other 
"sub-wiki" just have tiddlers.

Sincerely
LinOnetwo


在2020年10月22日星期四 UTC+8 下午5:42:03 写道：

> Tony,
>
> With only 4 wikis (I have over 100), I would just do any change you wish 
> to make to one, and manually apply to others. There are neat and easy ways 
> to do this.
>
>- If in your master wiki you create a tiddler that lists (with links 
>of all the things that changed you flag for the other wikis) you can just 
>drag and drop them on your other wikis.
>- You could export all the changes as a json file and drop that file 
>(or import it) to your other three wikis. You can then collect a set of 
>changes to drop on a new wiki if you get a 5th.
>- One trick I like is to use an iframe in the child wikis, that opens 
>the master wikis updates tiddler in an iframe,  you can actually drag 
> items 
>from in the iframe window and drop them on the wiki that the iframe is in.
>- Mario has a bundler plugin you may like, one option allows you to 
>select if you which to overwrite on import or not. This helps avoiding 
>overwitting config tiddlers.
>- I have created dragable packages installed in a master wiki that I 
>can drag an drop as needed, and another collects all the plugins I come 
>across, and I make sure I record the source. I often "disable" the plugin 
>in this plugin repository to keep it clean. After dragging a disable 
> plugin 
>to a new wiki it becomes enabled in the new wiki.
>
> With a more complex situation like mine I have established workflow 
> practices. I try and make sure my changes are comparable where ever I 
> install them and have a quick and easy way to install as I need them. If I 
> am in wiki 2 and I want to use my smart-code view I install it. I have some 
> nice easy ways to find such tiddler packages on windows I can share. 
>
> The most sophisticated processes would be to bundle changes into a plugin 
> and add them to a library not unlike the plugins add new plugins. The 
> library facility allows you to trigger reinstalls. But this is still a 
> little painful to achieve, and you need to serve the library via a server.
>
> I do not know who skins cats but there are many ways to do anything in 
> tiddlywiki, and a vast majority need only wiki text, widget and macros. I 
> suggest developing your own solution that you can evolve over time.
>
> Tones
>
> On Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 19:52:21 UTC+11 tony...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi all, much respect and adoration etc
>>
>> My use of TiddlyWiki is via TiddlyDesktop for personal (non-shared) 
>> information only. I used to have only one wiki which I sectioned off into 
>> different topics, but I have found reasons over time to split these wikis 
>> up, so I now have 4 separate wikis (They aren't all located in a common 
>> folder, but all 4 are accessible at the same time from a single machine)
>>
>> Every so often, I take a look at new plugins or tweak my settings in one 
>> of these wikis, and I find amazing and helpful things that become part of 
>> the wiki
>>
>> You can see where this is going...right: the new plugins and features I 
>> use are meant to be globally-evolutionary across all of my 4 wikis, two 
>> examples are: that I started using the codemirror Vim keymap, or that I 
>> tweaked my theme sizes to be all % based rather than absolute.
>>
>> My 4 wikis should all be essentially the 'same' in terms of settings, the 
>> only things that aren't 'data' ie: content tiddlers, that should be 
>> different between them is things like the wiki name, or the  favicon logo 
>> i've set for the wiki that I can see in tiddly desktop
>>
>> Socan anyone see a process I could use to keep my settings and 
>> plugins 'synced' between these 4 near-identically-configured wikis? I 
>> guess, as with any sync operation, there may be instances where both sides 
>> have changed (or at least it isn't clear whether a change on one side is 
>> evolutionary), so some crude visual 'diff' to see what i'm going to update 
>> would be beneficial (although that isn't crucial I guess, the process could 
>> just overwrite - its usually just one of these 4 that get's upgraded and I 
>> want to make the other 3 mirror its settings, but because I haven't had a 
>> good way to 'sync' settings i'm sure i've ended up in a mess where some 
>> newer settings/plugins now exist across all 4 wikis)
>>
>> thanks enourmously for everything in advance
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Keep Wikis settings and plugins in sync

[TW Tones]

Tony,

With only 4 wikis (I have over 100), I would just do any change you wish to 
make to one, and manually apply to others. There are neat and easy ways to 
do this.

   - If in your master wiki you create a tiddler that lists (with links of 
   all the things that changed you flag for the other wikis) you can just drag 
   and drop them on your other wikis.
   - You could export all the changes as a json file and drop that file (or 
   import it) to your other three wikis. You can then collect a set of changes 
   to drop on a new wiki if you get a 5th.
   - One trick I like is to use an iframe in the child wikis, that opens 
   the master wikis updates tiddler in an iframe,  you can actually drag items 
   from in the iframe window and drop them on the wiki that the iframe is in.
   - Mario has a bundler plugin you may like, one option allows you to 
   select if you which to overwrite on import or not. This helps avoiding 
   overwitting config tiddlers.
   - I have created dragable packages installed in a master wiki that I can 
   drag an drop as needed, and another collects all the plugins I come across, 
   and I make sure I record the source. I often "disable" the plugin in this 
   plugin repository to keep it clean. After dragging a disable plugin to a 
   new wiki it becomes enabled in the new wiki.

With a more complex situation like mine I have established workflow 
practices. I try and make sure my changes are comparable where ever I 
install them and have a quick and easy way to install as I need them. If I 
am in wiki 2 and I want to use my smart-code view I install it. I have some 
nice easy ways to find such tiddler packages on windows I can share. 

The most sophisticated processes would be to bundle changes into a plugin 
and add them to a library not unlike the plugins add new plugins. The 
library facility allows you to trigger reinstalls. But this is still a 
little painful to achieve, and you need to serve the library via a server.

I do not know who skins cats but there are many ways to do anything in 
tiddlywiki, and a vast majority need only wiki text, widget and macros. I 
suggest developing your own solution that you can evolve over time.

Tones

On Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 19:52:21 UTC+11 tony...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Hi all, much respect and adoration etc
>
> My use of TiddlyWiki is via TiddlyDesktop for personal (non-shared) 
> information only. I used to have only one wiki which I sectioned off into 
> different topics, but I have found reasons over time to split these wikis 
> up, so I now have 4 separate wikis (They aren't all located in a common 
> folder, but all 4 are accessible at the same time from a single machine)
>
> Every so often, I take a look at new plugins or tweak my settings in one 
> of these wikis, and I find amazing and helpful things that become part of 
> the wiki
>
> You can see where this is going...right: the new plugins and features I 
> use are meant to be globally-evolutionary across all of my 4 wikis, two 
> examples are: that I started using the codemirror Vim keymap, or that I 
> tweaked my theme sizes to be all % based rather than absolute.
>
> My 4 wikis should all be essentially the 'same' in terms of settings, the 
> only things that aren't 'data' ie: content tiddlers, that should be 
> different between them is things like the wiki name, or the  favicon logo 
> i've set for the wiki that I can see in tiddly desktop
>
> Socan anyone see a process I could use to keep my settings and plugins 
> 'synced' between these 4 near-identically-configured wikis? I guess, as 
> with any sync operation, there may be instances where both sides have 
> changed (or at least it isn't clear whether a change on one side is 
> evolutionary), so some crude visual 'diff' to see what i'm going to update 
> would be beneficial (although that isn't crucial I guess, the process could 
> just overwrite - its usually just one of these 4 that get's upgraded and I 
> want to make the other 3 mirror its settings, but because I haven't had a 
> good way to 'sync' settings i'm sure i've ended up in a mess where some 
> newer settings/plugins now exist across all 4 wikis)
>
> thanks enourmously for everything in advance
>

-- 
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