Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[Michael Blazer]

Hui,
It sounds like the issue is with your OEM GPIB controller. Why don't you 
post some pictures of it and see if any of the Time Nuts can identify 
it? It probably is a generic version of some common interface.


Mike


On 6/18/2012 8:43 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:

Hello Mike:
 Many thanks for useful information. The problem is I have no more information of my USB-GPIB controller, 
so I don't know any command of this device. I used stupid way to send my command, if I want send 
"DI" to increase the display digis, I will convert "DI" to HEX code, it's 0x44 and 0x49. 
I add 0x36 (0x36 is HP5386's address) and 0x0A in the begin and end of my command sequence separately. So my 
command looks like "0x3644490A0D", the command was worked.
 but I don't know what command can set my counter to "talk" status, I am also 
confused on how to "initiate its read cycle".


Hui


At 2012-06-17 23:45:07,"Michael Blazer"  wrote:

Hui,
The older instruments have a very simple command structure. You don't
need the "?" to query. Typically just doing a GPIB Read command (ibread
for NI controllers) will address the counter to output and it will send
the current reading. This can cause a problem if you request data too
soon after a setup command. You'll get the previous reading.
The "ENTER S ; N$" command just reads from address "S" into the variable
"N$".
It sound like you need the command to your USB-GPIB controller to get it
to read. The counter is probably ready to send the data, the controller
just needs to initiate its read cycle.

Mike

On 6/17/2012 10:17 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:

I have a old HP5386A counter and a OEM USB-GPIB controller(no tech support), I use a serial port 
debug program to send command via USB-GPIB to HP5386A, when I send "FU2"(Measure period) 
or "DI"(increment display digis), the 5386 response the command and worked well, the 
other control command in the HP's manual also worked well.


But I don't know how to read the measure value from 5385A, in my HP3478A mutilmeter case, I just 
send a "?", it will return voltage value to software, but at 5386A, the “?” not work, I 
got error message "52" on LCD panel.


I read the HP5386's manual, the demonstrates used "ENTER" command to get measure value, 
but the "ENTER" is a HP-BASIC command of vintage HP-85 computer. I don't know how to send 
similar command to control my counter, can someone give me some advice? Thank you!


Hui
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[cfo]

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:29:07 +0200, Ton wrote:

> Hello Hui,
> 
> I found that I needed:
> Ag488Wrap.ibeos(devDesc, 0x040A); // 04 = terminate read when 0A = /n is
> detected
> as part of the initialization. Without this, the communication with my
> 5384A timed out.
> 
That matches my findings on my HP5384A.
It doesn't set EOI at end of data.
But terminates all messages with 0x0A aka (\n) instead.

It doesn't respond/excecute commands if the REN line isn't active.

It expects GPIB commands to be terminated with 0x0A (\n) , so
don't send <0x0A><0x0D> , it wants <0x0A> as last char to 
indicate (EOM).

I suppose it's because it's pre SCPI.

CFO


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Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[Hui Zhang]

Hello Ton:
Thanks for your reply. I tried to send 0x040A to HP5386, but I did not 
receive any response. I pressed RESET button when I got "52" error message, the 
error message disappeared and frequency reading displayed in the receive buffer 
area of my Serial port Assitant software.


Hui


At 2012-06-18 15:29:07,Ton  wrote:
>Hello Hui,
>
>I found that I needed:
>Ag488Wrap.ibeos(devDesc, 0x040A); // 04 = terminate read when 0A = /n is 
>detected
>as part of the initialization. Without this, the communication with my 
>5384A timed out.
>
>Also, see what happens when you press the reset button when you get 
>error 52 while you continue to loop on ibread with a timer.
>
>Best regards,
>Ton
>
>
>On 17-Jun-12 17:45, Michael Blazer wrote:
>> Hui,
>> The older instruments have a very simple command structure. You don't 
>> need the "?" to query. Typically just doing a GPIB Read command 
>> (ibread for NI controllers) will address the counter to output and it 
>> will send the current reading. This can cause a problem if you request 
>> data too soon after a setup command. You'll get the previous reading.
>> The "ENTER S ; N$" command just reads from address "S" into the 
>> variable "N$".
>> It sound like you need the command to your USB-GPIB controller to get 
>> it to read. The counter is probably ready to send the data, the 
>> controller just needs to initiate its read cycle.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 6/17/2012 10:17 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:
>>> I have a old HP5386A counter and a OEM USB-GPIB controller(no tech 
>>> support), I use a serial port debug program to send command via 
>>> USB-GPIB to HP5386A, when I send "FU2"(Measure period) or 
>>> "DI"(increment display digis), the 5386 response the command and 
>>> worked well, the other control command in the HP's manual also worked 
>>> well.
>>>
>>>
>>> But I don't know how to read the measure value from 5385A, in my 
>>> HP3478A mutilmeter case, I just send a "?", it will return voltage 
>>> value to software, but at 5386A, the “?” not work, I got error 
>>> message "52" on LCD panel.
>>>
>>>
>>> I read the HP5386's manual, the demonstrates used "ENTER" command to 
>>> get measure value, but the "ENTER" is a HP-BASIC command of vintage 
>>> HP-85 computer. I don't know how to send similar command to control 
>>> my counter, can someone give me some advice? Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>> Hui
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[Hui Zhang]

Hello Mike:
Many thanks for useful information. The problem is I have no more 
information of my USB-GPIB controller, so I don't know any command of this 
device. I used stupid way to send my command, if I want send "DI" to increase 
the display digis, I will convert "DI" to HEX code, it's 0x44 and 0x49. I add 
0x36 (0x36 is HP5386's address) and 0x0A in the begin and end of my command 
sequence separately. So my command looks like "0x3644490A0D", the command was 
worked. 
but I don't know what command can set my counter to "talk" status, I am 
also confused on how to "initiate its read cycle".


Hui


At 2012-06-17 23:45:07,"Michael Blazer"  wrote:
>Hui,
>The older instruments have a very simple command structure. You don't 
>need the "?" to query. Typically just doing a GPIB Read command (ibread 
>for NI controllers) will address the counter to output and it will send 
>the current reading. This can cause a problem if you request data too 
>soon after a setup command. You'll get the previous reading.
>The "ENTER S ; N$" command just reads from address "S" into the variable 
>"N$".
>It sound like you need the command to your USB-GPIB controller to get it 
>to read. The counter is probably ready to send the data, the controller 
>just needs to initiate its read cycle.
>
>Mike
>
>On 6/17/2012 10:17 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:
>> I have a old HP5386A counter and a OEM USB-GPIB controller(no tech support), 
>> I use a serial port debug program to send command via USB-GPIB to HP5386A, 
>> when I send "FU2"(Measure period) or "DI"(increment display digis), the 5386 
>> response the command and worked well, the other control command in the HP's 
>> manual also worked well.
>>
>>
>> But I don't know how to read the measure value from 5385A, in my HP3478A 
>> mutilmeter case, I just send a "?", it will return voltage value to 
>> software, but at 5386A, the “?” not work, I got error message "52" on LCD 
>> panel.
>>
>>
>> I read the HP5386's manual, the demonstrates used "ENTER" command to get 
>> measure value, but the "ENTER" is a HP-BASIC command of vintage HP-85 
>> computer. I don't know how to send similar command to control my counter, 
>> can someone give me some advice? Thank you!
>>
>>
>> Hui
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TimePod 5330A announcement/info (was TimePod, cross-correlation fun and measurements)

[John Miles]

> Hi John,
> 
> Congratulations on a good design.

Thanks!

> Why the 78 MHz sample frequency ?

Long story: it's mostly arbitrary, but at least with some ADCs, it's
beneficial to spur performance if the first few dozen harmonics of the ADC
clock rate and the most commonly-used test frequencies don't approach each
other too closely.  In this case I wanted to ensure good SFDR when measuring
5 and 10 MHz signals, so I went with a clock frequency that has no harmonics
within 100 kHz of any harmonics of 5 MHz until 3.2 GHz.  At that point, the
640th harmonic of 5 MHz is 50 kHz away from the 41st harmonic of 78.050 MHz.


The resulting 50 kHz spur is somewhat dependent on input levels, but it's
rarely worse than -130 dBc, well below the 5330A's spec limit of -100 dBc.
Being in a predictable location far from the carrier, it could be removed in
software, although I don't currently do that.  

There is a patent by Symmetricom (US 7,227,346) that discusses the problem
in more detail.  Their approach in the TSC 5120A was to use a pair of ADCs
with inputs in quadrature at each phase detector, for a total of eight.
This technique doesn't seem to be needed with the LTC2216s I used.  They're
well-behaved even near input frequencies deliberately chosen to cause
trouble, like 7.805 MHz.

-- john



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Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[Azelio Boriani]

I have seen that others had a communication problem with the HP5386A. When
I use the Agilent IOLibrarySuite, this counter generates ghost sessions and
can't enumerate correctly. I thought it was a faulty GPIB port at first but
after reading all this I suspect it is the strange behaviour of the 5386A
GPIB controller software. Good to know it must be stopped at the newline 0A.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Ton  wrote:

> Hello Hui,
>
> I found that I needed:
> Ag488Wrap.ibeos(devDesc, 0x040A); // 04 = terminate read when 0A = /n is
> detected
> as part of the initialization. Without this, the communication with my
> 5384A timed out.
>
> Also, see what happens when you press the reset button when you get error
> 52 while you continue to loop on ibread with a timer.
>
> Best regards,
> Ton
>
>
> On 17-Jun-12 17:45, Michael Blazer wrote:
>
>> Hui,
>> The older instruments have a very simple command structure. You don't
>> need the "?" to query. Typically just doing a GPIB Read command (ibread for
>> NI controllers) will address the counter to output and it will send the
>> current reading. This can cause a problem if you request data too soon
>> after a setup command. You'll get the previous reading.
>> The "ENTER S ; N$" command just reads from address "S" into the variable
>> "N$".
>> It sound like you need the command to your USB-GPIB controller to get it
>> to read. The counter is probably ready to send the data, the controller
>> just needs to initiate its read cycle.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 6/17/2012 10:17 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:
>>
>>> I have a old HP5386A counter and a OEM USB-GPIB controller(no tech
>>> support), I use a serial port debug program to send command via USB-GPIB to
>>> HP5386A, when I send "FU2"(Measure period) or "DI"(increment display
>>> digis), the 5386 response the command and worked well, the other control
>>> command in the HP's manual also worked well.
>>>
>>>
>>> But I don't know how to read the measure value from 5385A, in my HP3478A
>>> mutilmeter case, I just send a "?", it will return voltage value to
>>> software, but at 5386A, the “?” not work, I got error message "52" on LCD
>>> panel.
>>>
>>>
>>> I read the HP5386's manual, the demonstrates used "ENTER" command to get
>>> measure value, but the "ENTER" is a HP-BASIC command of vintage HP-85
>>> computer. I don't know how to send similar command to control my counter,
>>> can someone give me some advice? Thank you!
>>>
>>>
>>> Hui
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>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TimePod, cross-correlation fun and measurements

[Bob Camp]

Hi

At least with 60 Hz power (which may indeed behave differently than 50 Hz)
everything I have seen so far has been in the OCXO's I'm testing. The
TimePod it's self seems to be very immune to the usual ground loops and
power supply noise issues.

As you play with phase noise testing - be sure to take a look at the neat
little file that lets you fiddle the FFT's. It's a very neat way to stress
test your computer...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] TimePod, cross-correlation fun and measurements

Fellow time-nuts,

As you know, I spent last week in Boulder. NIST T&F seminar, fellow 
time-nuts and much fun.

I also picked up my TimePod out of the hands of no other than John Miles 
himself. Being sleep deprived from the travel, progress have been slow, 
but I have now come to the point where I got a bunch of measurements 
done. This has been greatly aided by the excellent cables and adapters 
provided by Tom Knox.

I did a comparison of my OSA8601-02 SN1314 and OSA8600-1 SN817. Some 
material to let you know what these are, see:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/oscilloquartz/8601/

Essentially the 8601 is a different interconnection mounting than the 
8600. I tend to refer to them as 8600s as they are essentially the same. 
However, my 8601 is an older generation than my 8600. We will come back 
to that.

I have made three essential measurements:

OSA8600-OSA8601 pair (one as input and one as reference)
OSA8601 with dual reference (OSA8600 and HP5065A)
OSA8600 with dual reference (OSA8601 and HP5065A)

With the first measurement, I get the sum of the noise-levels.
With the second and third, the noise of the other sources 
cross-correlates out to some degree and the individuals noise should 
remain. It works to some degree. Let's see how the noise-floor 
measurements look:

http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_1.png

The green trace is the sum of them both. This is best seen from 10 Hz 
and above.

The blue trace is the OSA8601-02 AT-cut BVA.
The purple trace is the OSA8600-1 AT cut BVA.

The overall plot shows the typical f^-3 noise, some f^-1 noise and the 
white noise. The white noise is around -155 dBc or better and is 
essentially flat from 1 kHz to 100 kHz, except for the 20 kHz bump. This 
bump I do not know the source of.

In the 7 Hz to 500 Hz region, the f^-1 noise of the 8600 dominates the 
sum (green), where as below 7 Hz the 8601 f^-3 noise dominates.

Considering that their Q values should be roughly the same, and hence 
their break-point, it is fair to assume that the white noise of the 8600 
buffer amp is worse than the 8601 buffer amp, but the amplifier core of 
the 8600 is better than the 8601 amplifier core.

Doing a Hadamard analysis with linear drift:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_2.png
and without linear drift:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_6.png

Shows kind of OK values, with the flat part of ADEV around 3-5 E-13.
It's obvious how the 50 Hz breaks through, and that spurious was clearly 
visible in the phase-noise plots too. To maintain that low I kept lights 
off in the lab (with me walking around the disaster area with few visual 
cueues). Obviously I need to work on that. The ADEV is clearly 
school-book with a 9E-14/tau slope and then level out at about 4E-13 and 
then go steep up at tau or tau square depending on the linear drift 
being removed or not. This prooves that the frequency drift is not 
linear, and that Hadamard is not able to remove the effect.

Looking at the phase difference:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_3.png

and frequency difference:
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_4.png

Reveal that this is not matching up very well with the linear drift 
assumption, but there is clearly a systematic effect in here. A better 
frequency drift model should be applied, and it can be assumed that it 
pollutes the xDEV data, especially in the long-term.

Finally a look at TDEV
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_2012
0618_5.png

For short times, the time-stability can be as low as below 20 fs RMS. It 
is clear that 50 Hz noise is a threat for that performance. At 1 s they 
all remain below 300 fs. 1 ns stability is in the range of 100-400 s or so.

Actually, there is many improvements in how these measures are being 
done, but it is a nice example of how cross correlation allows one to 
measure below onces oscillators noise. The HP5065A is even noiser.

I could for instance not trim the OSA8601 for optimum frequency, so the 
measurements of the OSA8600 may suffer from tracking issues. Thi

Re: [time-nuts] TimePod 5330A announcement/info (was TimePod, cross-correlation fun and measurements)

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <00bf01cd4d12$f83a41d0$e8aec570$@pop.net>, "John Miles" writes:

Hi John,

Congratulations on a good design.

Why the 78 MHz sample frequency ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5386A GPIB

[Ton]

Hello Hui,

I found that I needed:
Ag488Wrap.ibeos(devDesc, 0x040A); // 04 = terminate read when 0A = /n is 
detected
as part of the initialization. Without this, the communication with my 
5384A timed out.


Also, see what happens when you press the reset button when you get 
error 52 while you continue to loop on ibread with a timer.


Best regards,
Ton


On 17-Jun-12 17:45, Michael Blazer wrote:

Hui,
The older instruments have a very simple command structure. You don't 
need the "?" to query. Typically just doing a GPIB Read command 
(ibread for NI controllers) will address the counter to output and it 
will send the current reading. This can cause a problem if you request 
data too soon after a setup command. You'll get the previous reading.
The "ENTER S ; N$" command just reads from address "S" into the 
variable "N$".
It sound like you need the command to your USB-GPIB controller to get 
it to read. The counter is probably ready to send the data, the 
controller just needs to initiate its read cycle.


Mike

On 6/17/2012 10:17 AM, Hui Zhang wrote:
I have a old HP5386A counter and a OEM USB-GPIB controller(no tech 
support), I use a serial port debug program to send command via 
USB-GPIB to HP5386A, when I send "FU2"(Measure period) or 
"DI"(increment display digis), the 5386 response the command and 
worked well, the other control command in the HP's manual also worked 
well.



But I don't know how to read the measure value from 5385A, in my 
HP3478A mutilmeter case, I just send a "?", it will return voltage 
value to software, but at 5386A, the “?” not work, I got error 
message "52" on LCD panel.



I read the HP5386's manual, the demonstrates used "ENTER" command to 
get measure value, but the "ENTER" is a HP-BASIC command of vintage 
HP-85 computer. I don't know how to send similar command to control 
my counter, can someone give me some advice? Thank you!



Hui
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