date:20141118

Hi

Mr. Google is your friend when it comes to web page translations. 

The nice thing about that page is that you can easily see the 2003 date code on 
the OCXO. That’s a bit long on the stock room shelf for parts on a board made 
in 2014. The date codes match up with the eBay MV-89’s we’ve been seeing for 
the last couple of years.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:24 PM, F. W. Bray  wrote:
> 
> It looks like the boards, without front panel, connectors, etc., are 
> available from this source.
> 
> http://h5.m.taobao.com/awp/core/detail.htm?id=38848104218
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't speak the language but I might be able to guess the 
> price.
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Hi

Yes Bob is back on his silly “don’t go overboard” rant ….

We often get excited about things that matter at the 1x10^-15 level when 
looking at what is a 1x10^-12 level problem. One good example is distribution 
amplifiers. Another are things like multipliers. What ever horrid thing they 
are doing in the REF-0 box to get 10 MHz, it works reasonably well from an ADEV 
standpoint past 10 seconds. They made a decision that what ever it is was good 
enough for their needs. Past 10 seconds it’s as good as anything you could do 
compared to the 5 MHz source it’s self. At 1 second, it degrades the 5 MHz 
slightly. Phase noise wise, it’s utter garbage anyplace you look. It’s not as 
bad as a telecom Rb, but it’s certainly in that league. 

Keeping a goal in mind is a really good idea on any project. Coming up with a 
“everything for everybody” solution is wonderful. HP could not afford to do 
that at a > $50K sell price on a 5071A. Tradeoff against a specific target is 
the realistic way to do even a TimeNut effort. ADEV past 1 second does not 
require -170 dbc / Hz phase noise at a 100 Hz offset from carrier. 

High Q is indeed an issue, so are bandpass as compared to lowpass filters. 
Bandwidth does matter. Stable parts (no weird ferrite) are part of the proper 
approach. What ever you do, it must be done with thought and with care. You 
also need to test the result. The effort for any of this needs to go into the 
little things (like testing) rather than into this or that magic circuit. Magic 
circuit or not, you still need to verify the result ….

Bob 

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:26 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Indeed. I was just pointing out that high-Q approaches might not always works 
> as you would think, but there is a way around it if you need.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/19/2014 02:17 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV 
>> that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the 
>> parts count down to two to four coils  and a few capacitors lets you do it 
>> without a lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide 
>> rules back in the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based 
>> calculator app these days.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
>>> 
>>> Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series 
>>> loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 
>>> 1930-1950 era.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi

 Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a 
 collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF 
 transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q 
 to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the 
 collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a 
 Tee.

 Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:
> 
> I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in 
> push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering 
> it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased 
> at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 
> 70 dB down.
> 
> -Doug, AE6SY
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
> 
> HI
> 
> Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” 
> question.
> 
> Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick 
> with a simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up 
> with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, 
> gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic 
> design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. 
> Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has 
> design charts and tube based examples.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>> 
>> Don
>> The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so 
>> far.
>> The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
>> disciplines REF0.
>> If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
>> system design for about 20 years.
>> 
>> Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
>> why you have s

[time-nuts] Yet Another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread F. W. Bray

It looks like the boards, without front panel, connectors, etc., are available 
from this source.

http://h5.m.taobao.com/awp/core/detail.htm?id=38848104218

Unfortunately, I don't speak the language but I might be able to guess the 
price.
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Indeed. I was just pointing out that high-Q approaches might not always 
works as you would think, but there is a way around it if you need.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/19/2014 02:17 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV 
that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the parts 
count down to two to four coils  and a few capacitors lets you do it without a 
lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide rules back in 
the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based calculator app these 
days.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

Hi,

The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.

Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series loading 
the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 1930-1950 era.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a collector 
current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter 
textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something 
like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with 
another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:

I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull 
and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an 
LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus 
electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.

-Doug, AE6SY

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

HI

Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.

Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when 
mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to 
tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design 
textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:

Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.

Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 
days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Hi

For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV 
that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the parts 
count down to two to four coils  and a few capacitors lets you do it without a 
lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide rules back in 
the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based calculator app these 
days. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
> 
> Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series loading 
> the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 1930-1950 era.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a 
>> collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF 
>> transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q 
>> to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the 
>> collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a 
>> Tee.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in 
>>> push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it 
>>> with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a 
>>> local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB 
>>> down.
>>> 
>>> -Doug, AE6SY
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
>>> 
>>> HI
>>> 
>>> Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” 
>>> question.
>>> 
>>> Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with 
>>> a simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a 
>>> tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets 
>>> people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design 
>>> approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just 
>>> about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design 
>>> charts and tube based examples.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
 
 Don
 The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
 The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
 disciplines REF0.
 If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
 system design for about 20 years.
 
 Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
 why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
 double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
 thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
 I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
 running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 
 30 days.
 I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay KS-24361 may be gone. I emailed ASI to confirm.

Hi

Since the main source of these appears to be the one guy, I’d bet the split 
units that show up are from people doing buy and re-sell from him. One 
alternative to paying eBay premiums for that sort of service would be some sort 
of co-op buy from people on the list. I have absolutely no idea of how to 
organize such a thing. I am *not* in any way volunteering to do it. What I’m 
suggesting is that the the REF-0 is worth less than the REF-1. I suspect that 
the “I’d buy it for the OCXO” guys might split up sets with the “I just want 
the GPS” guys. The obvious issue in all that is multiple shipping fees.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:53 PM, F. W. Bray  wrote:
> 
> Yes, a lot of consumer protection laws forbid advertising a "sale" price 
> unless there is an actual reduction.  Some require that the "original price" 
> quoted be the actual price within a defined period, e.g. within the last 90 
> days.  eBay may also have it's own rules.
> 
> In the case of this item, I assume that most people on the list aren't 
> deciding whether to buy based on the word "sale"!
> 
> Fred
> 
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:38 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> I suppose that if they are on “$50 off SALE”  at $150, you need to list them 
>> at $200 for some period of time. 
>> 
>> Regardless of the why - yes, get them now. That’s a very good price for all 
>> you are getting. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am 18.11.2014 um 04:02 schrieb paul swed:
 Wow they are turning to gold right before our eyes.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> Price is down to $150 again. And I've just ordered mine :-)
>>> 
>>> Maybe I should have taken another one, then I could do a four-cornered hat.
>>> 
>>> regards, Gerhard, dk4xp
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Frederick Bray 
 wrote:
 
> Looks like the price has now gone back up to $200.  It will be interesting
> to watch to see how many sell at that price and whether they go back on
> sale.  At this point, 55 are reported sold with more than 10 available.
> 
> In terms of quantity available, the old/original shipping label on mine
> (which arrived last week) indicated that it was 32 of 135 in the original
> shipment.  This may or may not have any significance in terms of the total
> number the seller may have available.
> 
> Fred
> 
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 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long


Hi,

The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.

Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series 
loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 
1930-1950 era.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a collector 
current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter 
textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something 
like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with 
another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:

I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull 
and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an 
LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus 
electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.

-Doug, AE6SY

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

HI

Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.

Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when 
mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to 
tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design 
textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.

Bob


On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:

Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.

Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 
days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

Hi

After a bit of time with Mr. Google, I think it’s pretty clear that it’s an 
amateur project board. The same guy / outfit has a number of RF modules and 
instruments. The seem to show up mainly on the Russian and Chinese sites. I 
suspect that there is an article on each somewhere out there. The parts are 
almost certainly the same sort of stuff you get on eBay. In this case the 
builder probably buys them face to face rather than at auction.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 18 Nov 2014 23:39, "Bob Camp"  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Assuming that the number that looks like a date on the front panel is
> indeed a date, the gizmo was designed about 3 months ago. The OCXO looks a
> *lot* like a surplus Morion part. I think I’ll let somebody else go first
> on doing all the ADEV and phase noise testing on that one …
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> For something sold as new, it sure doesn't look like the OCXO is new.
> 
> It looks a lot more compact than the other auction which has two separate
> modules which I assume need to be linked together.
> 
> Not as compact as the Jackson Labs board though,  but it does have the
> (potential) advantage of an OCXO, although one has no idea how good/bad the
> performance.
> 
> Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay KS-24361 may be gone. I emailed ASI to confirm.

2014-11-18 Thread F. W. Bray

Yes, a lot of consumer protection laws forbid advertising a "sale" price unless 
there is an actual reduction.  Some require that the "original price" quoted be 
the actual price within a defined period, e.g. within the last 90 days.  eBay 
may also have it's own rules.

In the case of this item, I assume that most people on the list aren't deciding 
whether to buy based on the word "sale"!

Fred

On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:38 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> I suppose that if they are on “$50 off SALE”  at $150, you need to list them 
> at $200 for some period of time. 
> 
> Regardless of the why - yes, get them now. That’s a very good price for all 
> you are getting. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:
>> 
>> Am 18.11.2014 um 04:02 schrieb paul swed:
>>> Wow they are turning to gold right before our eyes.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul.
>>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> Price is down to $150 again. And I've just ordered mine :-)
>> 
>> Maybe I should have taken another one, then I could do a four-cornered hat.
>> 
>> regards, Gerhard, dk4xp
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Frederick Bray 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Looks like the price has now gone back up to $200.  It will be interesting
 to watch to see how many sell at that price and whether they go back on
 sale.  At this point, 55 are reported sold with more than 10 available.
 
 In terms of quantity available, the old/original shipping label on mine
 (which arrived last week) indicated that it was 32 of 135 in the original
 shipment.  This may or may not have any significance in terms of the total
 number the seller may have available.
 
 Fred
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

On 18 Nov 2014 23:39, "Bob Camp"  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Assuming that the number that looks like a date on the front panel is
indeed a date, the gizmo was designed about 3 months ago. The OCXO looks a
*lot* like a surplus Morion part. I think I’ll let somebody else go first
on doing all the ADEV and phase noise testing on that one …
>
> Bob

For something sold as new, it sure doesn't look like the OCXO is new.

It looks a lot more compact than the other auction which has two separate
modules which I assume need to be linked together.

Not as compact as the Jackson Labs board though,  but it does have the
(potential) advantage of an OCXO, although one has no idea how good/bad the
performance.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Hi

Done with some care, they have little or no phase noise impact on a good 5 MHz 
oscillator. The OCXO manufacturers would do something else if it did. Rip open 
some oscillators and take a look. It’s as good a use as any for that pile of 
dead parts sitting under everybody’s bench.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:51 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> I also use the same method though I am partial to IFR 510 FETs as I recall.
> Heck it just works and has for about 10 years.
> But that said this is Time-nuts and folks get pretty touchy about lots of
> things.
> So though these methods work I do wonder about noise and such.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a
>> collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF
>> transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q
>> to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the
>> collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a
>> Tee.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in
>> push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it
>> with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a
>> local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB
>> down.
>>> 
>>> -Doug, AE6SY
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>> Camp
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
>>> 
>>> HI
>>> 
>>> Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz”
>> question.
>>> 
>>> Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick
>> with a simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with
>> a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets
>> people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design
>> approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just
>> about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design
>> charts and tube based examples.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
 
 Don
 The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so
>> far.
 The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
 disciplines REF0.
 If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
 system design for about 20 years.
 
 Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
 why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
 double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
 thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
 I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
 running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only
>> in 30 days.
 I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 ___
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

I also use the same method though I am partial to IFR 510 FETs as I recall.
Heck it just works and has for about 10 years.
But that said this is Time-nuts and folks get pretty touchy about lots of
things.
So though these methods work I do wonder about noise and such.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a
> collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF
> transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q
> to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the
> collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a
> Tee.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:
> >
> > I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in
> push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it
> with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a
> local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB
> down.
> >
> > -Doug, AE6SY
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Camp
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
> >
> > HI
> >
> > Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz”
> question.
> >
> > Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick
> with a simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with
> a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets
> people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design
> approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just
> about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design
> charts and tube based examples.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> >>
> >> Don
> >> The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so
> far.
> >> The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
> >> disciplines REF0.
> >> If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
> >> system design for about 20 years.
> >>
> >> Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
> >> why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
> >> double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
> >> thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
> >> I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
> >> running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only
> in 30 days.
> >> I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news


Brooke,

Maybe, but maybe not. It's not a dark hole either. It supposedly does 
not interact very good with normal matter. It can be moot if the 
interaction is so weak that it only gives itself away in sub-ns level 
towards picoseconds or less, so that it becomes difficult of monitoring 
it at all. What if it's not "chunks" like that but fairly evenly spread, 
then we can only see the wrinkles as density varies. There is so many 
ways that this could go wrong, including not really interacting at all 
the way we think.


Then again, it's fundamental research, we don't know exactly how it 
behaves, even if we have some clues about things that doesn't fit, and 
in order to explain it we come up with the theories about dark matter 
and dark energy.


I just wanted to have the article behind the science journalist level.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/18/2014 11:57 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Magnus:

Maybe it's moot.  If a hunk of dark matter that's 0.75 of Earth's radius
is inside the GPS orbit there's likely to be bigger issues.
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Charles and Joe,

Read this, and hopefully you get smarter than from the write-up you
linked:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.1244v2.pdf

I could not find any attempt at sensitivity scale required, and thus
the feasability of actually detecting these deviations.

From a quick look at it, I have a kind of notion of what they imply
one should look for, but it's not really well described exactly what
to expect, but maybe it becomes clearer on a quality read-through. It
is more suggestive than detailed method proposing, enough to show the
idea, but not enough to implement it, it needs the engineering on top
of it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/18/2014 03:12 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
outcome of the study is.

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
 wrote:

Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?




Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news

2014-11-18 Thread Joseph Gray

Sounds like the plot for a good scifi movie.

Joe Gray
W5JG
 On Nov 18, 2014 3:57 PM, "Brooke Clarke"  wrote:

> Hi Magnus:
>
> Maybe it's moot.  If a hunk of dark matter that's 0.75 of Earth's radius
> is inside the GPS orbit there's likely to be bigger issues.
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
>> Hi Charles and Joe,
>>
>> Read this, and hopefully you get smarter than from the write-up you
>> linked:
>> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.1244v2.pdf
>>
>> I could not find any attempt at sensitivity scale required, and thus the
>> feasability of actually detecting these deviations.
>>
>> From a quick look at it, I have a kind of notion of what they imply one
>> should look for, but it's not really well described exactly what to expect,
>> but maybe it becomes clearer on a quality read-through. It is more
>> suggestive than detailed method proposing, enough to show the idea, but not
>> enough to implement it, it needs the engineering on top of it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 11/18/2014 03:12 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
>>> outcome of the study is.
>>>
>>> Joe Gray
>>> W5JG
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?

 

 Best regards,

 Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

Hi

The guy’s email *might* be: bg7...@126.com

That also could be something else entirely.

Bob

On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:34 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi 
> 
> … and indeed it is one. There are a whole range of this and that pieces of 
> test gear designed by the guy.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Alan Hochhalter  wrote:
>> 
>> BG7TBL sounds like an amateur radio callsign.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several
>>> of them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the
>>> local market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often
>>> they are based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more
>>> information, this is very much a “who knows” sort of thing.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent 
>>> wrote:
 
 You can see a similar product by this seller direct -
 
 http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
 http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/
 
 Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
 There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
 and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
 wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
 the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.
 
 -Arthur
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread xaos

The cheaper unit has no patch wires. Interesting.
Seems that he put a lot of work in the unit.
Too bad the information on the software is non-existent.

Cheap enough though.

-G

On 11/18/2014 07:24 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several of 
> them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the local 
> market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often they are 
> based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more information, this is 
> very much a “who knows” sort of thing.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent  wrote:
>>
>> You can see a similar product by this seller direct -
>>
>> http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
>> http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/
>>
>> Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
>> There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
>> and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
>> wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
>> the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.
>>
>> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

Hi 

… and indeed it is one. There are a whole range of this and that pieces of test 
gear designed by the guy.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Alan Hochhalter  wrote:
> 
> BG7TBL sounds like an amateur radio callsign.
> 
> Alan
> 
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several
>> of them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the
>> local market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often
>> they are based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more
>> information, this is very much a “who knows” sort of thing.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You can see a similar product by this seller direct -
>>> 
>>> http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
>>> http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/
>>> 
>>> Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
>>> There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
>>> and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
>>> wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
>>> the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.
>>> 
>>> -Arthur
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811

2014-11-18 Thread S. Jackson via time-nuts

Bill,
 
this would be a good question for time-nuts (CCd here).
 
I don't know what slope your particular oscillator has, but if it is  
negative then years ago someone posted schematics on how to invert the slope 
and  
how to offset the EFC voltage and change the range etc using an Opamp..
 
That should be in the archives. Otherwise such circuits are pretty readily  
available in the application notes of TI, LT, National, etc etc.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 15:54:30 Pacific Standard Time,  
bill.ric...@verizon.net writes:

 
I  guess my idea of controlling a 10811 with the LTE-Lite is dead as its 
EFC has  a negative slope.  Any ideas? 
Regards, 
Bill 
 

 
On  the 10811, that OCXO can typically be mechanically tuned to have a 1.5V 
 nominal EFC set voltage. The LTE-Lite can drive from 0V to 3.0V EFC, so 
that  should be more than required on a good (well aged and good thermal 
stability)  10811. We have not tried driving a 10811 with it yet though, so 
can't 
say for  sure. One requirement is that the OCXO has a positive EFC  slope.
 

Bye,
 
Said
 

 
 
In a  message dated 11/17/2014 16:28:51 Pacific Standard Time, 
_bill.riches@verizon.net_ (mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net)   writes:

Said,

Patiently  waiting for my 10 mhz unit.  What are your ideas on using it  to
control a 10811 instead of the built in 10 mhz osc?  Will there  be enough
control voltage for the  10811?








 

 (http://www.avast.com/)  
This  email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Hi

Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N  or … biased to generate a collector 
current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter 
textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something 
like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with 
another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald  wrote:
> 
> I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull 
> and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an 
> LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local 
> surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
> 
> -Doug, AE6SY
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
> 
> HI
> 
> Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question. 
> 
> Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
> simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
> single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad 
> when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates 
> back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter 
> design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based 
> examples.  
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>> 
>> Don
>> The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
>> The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that 
>> disciplines REF0.
>> If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh 
>> system design for about 20 years.
>> 
>> Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats 
>> why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz 
>> double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of 
>> thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
>> I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 
>> running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 
>> 30 days.
>> I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread Alan Hochhalter

BG7TBL sounds like an amateur radio callsign.

Alan

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several
> of them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the
> local market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often
> they are based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more
> information, this is very much a “who knows” sort of thing.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent 
> wrote:
> >
> > You can see a similar product by this seller direct -
> >
> > http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
> > http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/
> >
> > Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
> > There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
> > and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
> > wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
> > the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.
> >
> > -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread S. Jackson via time-nuts

In China they do it differently from what we do here: they "tame" the  
oscillator, and sometimes they "discplined" it as well :)
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 15:24:12 Pacific Standard Time,  
golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/1
11514491254
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

Hi

I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several of 
them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the local 
market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often they are 
based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more information, this is 
very much a “who knows” sort of thing.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent  wrote:
> 
> You can see a similar product by this seller direct -
> 
> http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
> http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/
> 
> Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
> There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
> and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
> wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
> the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.
> 
> -Arthur
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[time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread Arthur Dent

You can see a similar product by this seller direct -

http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/

Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.

-Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread xaos

Well, how about this:
http://www.cart100.com/Product/42336500072/

Same unit as eBay about 10 bucks cheaper.

-G


On 11/18/2014 07:03 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> The other marking on the unit is BG7TBL
>
> do a Google search of images, interesting
>
> Wonder who it is ?
>
> -pete
>
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 3:34 PM, xaos  wrote:
>> This is the strangest unit I have ever seen.
>> No documentation.
>>
>> Morion OCXO
>> http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/
>> From St. Petersburg :)
>>
>> I cant make out any part number.
>> except this number on the front panel:
>>
>> 06109a_y145_09
>>
>> Google gives me nothing.
>>
>> I might buy one just for the hell of it.
>>
>> -George
>> On 11/18/2014 06:23 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:
>>> I just noticed this on Ebay. The seller has several other related
>>> items but the pricing is kind of confusing. No a lot of info.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/111514491254
>>>
>>> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread Pete Lancashire

The other marking on the unit is BG7TBL

do a Google search of images, interesting

Wonder who it is ?

-pete

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 3:34 PM, xaos  wrote:
> This is the strangest unit I have ever seen.
> No documentation.
>
> Morion OCXO
> http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/
> From St. Petersburg :)
>
> I cant make out any part number.
> except this number on the front panel:
>
> 06109a_y145_09
>
> Google gives me nothing.
>
> I might buy one just for the hell of it.
>
> -George
> On 11/18/2014 06:23 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:
>> I just noticed this on Ebay. The seller has several other related
>> items but the pricing is kind of confusing. No a lot of info.
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/111514491254
>>
>> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

2014-11-18 Thread Doug Ronald

I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull 
and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an 
LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus 
electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.

-Doug, AE6SY

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

HI

Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question. 

Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when 
mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to 
tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design 
textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.  

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> Don
> The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
> The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that 
> disciplines REF0.
> If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh 
> system design for about 20 years.
> 
> Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats 
> why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz 
> double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of 
> thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
> I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 
> running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 
> days.
> I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811

Hi

Most charts show the temperature coefficient going through zero around 5V and 
passing 2 mV/C in the vicinity of 6V. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 12:10 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/17/2014 5:54 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
>> I ground one side of the tuning diode and use the 2 to 12 V as the external
>>  OCXO for my FRK's along with increasing the time constant. I have not
>> verified it but I think removing the zener Voltage should also improve  ADEV.
>> Bert Kehren
>> 
> 
> The choice for the Zener diode came from my old boss at HP,
> who was very knowledgeable about using discrete zener diodes
> as low noise references.  According to him, this particular
> part number has very respectable noise.  This is just something
> you have to know experientially, there is no theory of zener
> noise AFAIK.  You might try measuring the noise of the 6.2V
> reference voltage directly at baseband, and then multiplying
> by the 1 Hz/volt sensitivity.  Let us know your results.
> 
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> (Now retired from HP/Agilent/Keysight)
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread xaos

This is the strangest unit I have ever seen.
No documentation.

Morion OCXO
http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/
>From St. Petersburg :)

I cant make out any part number.
except this number on the front panel:

06109a_y145_09

Google gives me nothing.

I might buy one just for the hell of it.

-George
On 11/18/2014 06:23 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:
> I just noticed this on Ebay. The seller has several other related
> items but the pricing is kind of confusing. No a lot of info.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/111514491254
>
> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

Hi

Assuming that the number that looks like a date on the front panel is indeed a 
date, the gizmo was designed about 3 months ago. The OCXO looks a *lot* like a 
surplus Morion part. I think I’ll let somebody else go first on doing all the 
ADEV and phase noise testing on that one …

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Arthur Dent  wrote:
> 
> I just noticed this on Ebay. The seller has several other related
> items but the pricing is kind of confusing. No a lot of info.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/111514491254
> 
> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay KS-24361 may be gone. I emailed ASI to confirm.

Hi

I suppose that if they are on “$50 off SALE”  at $150, you need to list them at 
$200 for some period of time. 

Regardless of the why - yes, get them now. That’s a very good price for all you 
are getting. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:
> 
> Am 18.11.2014 um 04:02 schrieb paul swed:
>> Wow they are turning to gold right before our eyes.
>> Regards
>> Paul.
>> WB8TSL
> 
> Price is down to $150 again. And I've just ordered mine :-)
> 
> Maybe I should have taken another one, then I could do a four-cornered hat.
> 
> regards, Gerhard, dk4xp
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Frederick Bray 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Looks like the price has now gone back up to $200.  It will be interesting
>>> to watch to see how many sell at that price and whether they go back on
>>> sale.  At this point, 55 are reported sold with more than 10 available.
>>> 
>>> In terms of quantity available, the old/original shipping label on mine
>>> (which arrived last week) indicated that it was 32 of 135 in the original
>>> shipment.  This may or may not have any significance in terms of the total
>>> number the seller may have available.
>>> 
>>> Fred
>>> 
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[time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

2014-11-18 Thread Arthur Dent

I just noticed this on Ebay. The seller has several other related
items but the pricing is kind of confusing. No a lot of info.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-DISCPLINED-CLOCK-GPSDO-10M-OUTPUT-SQUARE-WAVE-/111514491254

-Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

Hi

The GPS antennal goes into the TNC connector on the left hand side of the front 
panel. The box sources +5V power for an antenna. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello all...
> 
> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
> 
> My stupid question (s)...
> 
> Where does the GPS antenna connect??
> 
> Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?
> 
> Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(
> 
> TIA...
> 
> 
> 
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
> m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
> 
> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
> similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev 
> perspective 
> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.) 
> At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805 
> from the same source doesn't work as  well.
> 
> None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
> basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
> perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
> 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I still 
> have 
> a nice collection of frequency counters.
> 
> 
> Sent  from my iPad
> 
> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
> wrote:
> 
>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>> 
>> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN 
> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel 
> ULNs for 
> even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I also have a 
> costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.
>> 
>> Those 10811s just rule.
>> 
>> In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small 
> spurs you can see  in the plots...
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Said
>> 
>> Sent From  iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put  around 
> it - right?
>>> 
>>> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
> noise floor that the MTI’s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only other 
> GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . There 
> you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of limited 
> use in a practical system. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:
 
 Hi  Bob,
 
 yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite good 
> till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
 
 Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a 
> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done to 
> show the 
> DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and spurs than the 
> 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this purpose).
 
 The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good is 
> very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering 
> out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should 
> be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those units 
> to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
 
 bye,
 Said
 
 In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time, 
> kb...@n1k.org writes:
 Hi
 
 Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and an 
> very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 15 
> MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I’ve seen on 
> the 
> surplus market. 
 
 I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier. I 
> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You 
> will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 Hz. 
> No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
 
 Math:
 
 15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.
 
 -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz
 
 You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of a 
> number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to  work 
> fine for him. 
 
 Bob
 
 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361 Web Page

Hi

Hmmm …. dc power cables …. chop end off un-used serial cable… attach proper 
wires to power supply. 

(Yes, if you get the wires backwards things get a bit exciting … I have 
empirical evidence to support this claim). 

Since the running current is well below 1A on each connector, you don’t really 
need super heavy cables. 

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 5:41 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> 
> I've received the components of the Z3810A system and have some 8x10 color 
> glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of 
> each one explainin' what each one is for.  But need to find the connectors to 
> make up the DC power cables.
> 
> http://www.prc68.com/I/KS-24361.html
> 
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
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Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

HI

Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question. 

Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a 
simple single transistor stage and a  tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned 
single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when 
mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to 
tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design 
textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.  

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> Don
> The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
> The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
> disciplines REF0.
> If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh system
> design for about 20 years.
> 
> Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats why
> you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz double it
> filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of thoughts on the
> process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
> I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 running
> so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
> I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

Hi

Any data on the measured phase noise performance at 10 MHz?


Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:20 PM, pch.tns  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> The easiest setup to get 10MHz out of the15MHz is using a SiLabs5351C and 
> program it 15MHz in and 10MHz out. You have 8 outputs you can define.
> Pics of my setup here  
> and here 
> . I am using 
> this for all my SDR’s and conventional Rx/Tx with 10 MHz ref inputs. Works 
> great.
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Peter, HB9DQY
> 
> 
> 
>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:09, Don Murray via time-nuts  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> TNX Paul and Anthony...
>> 
>> More questions...   ;-)
>> 
>> I see that the REF1 type unit outputs 15MHz...
>> 
>> The REF0 unit has both 15MHz and 10MHz...
>> 
>> So, if I am going to use GPS, I need REF1, but it only does  15MHz out,
>> and I need 10MHz for my stuff...  so how do REF1 and REF0  interface??
>> Or does it work that way??
>> 
>> TNX guys!!
>> 
>> 
>> 73
>> Don
>> W4WJ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
>> paulsw...@gmail.com writes:
>> 
>> In the  picture its the top unit ref1 and its the left hand TNC and it does
>> power  the antenna.
>> If no antenna you need to tie a resistor to ground on the tnc  to fake it
>> out.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at  11:49 AM, Anthony Roby  wrote:
>> 
>>> If you  search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of
>>> photos I posted.  This one
>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the
>>> front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>>> 
>>> Anthony
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don
>>> Murray via  time-nuts
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
>>> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom
>>> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>>> 
>>> Hello all...
>>> 
>>> Just getting up to speed on the  KS-24361...
>>> 
>>> My stupid question (s)...
>>> 
>>> Where  does the GPS antenna connect??
>>> 
>>> Does the GPS antenna port power  the antenna?
>>> 
>>> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
>>> 
>>> TIA...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> Don
>>> W4WJ
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52  A.M. Central Standard Time,
>>> m...@alignedsolutions.com  writes:
>>> 
>>> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811  ocxo iirc) also performs
>>> similarly at  times to the 58503A  mentioned by Said.   From an adev
>>> perspective
>>> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so   
>> iirc.)
>>> At times though the output seems to "jump" in   frequency.   My other 
>> Z3805
>>> from the same source doesn't  work as  well.
>>> 
>>> None of the 10811's in my various pieces  of test gear (some of  which I
>>> basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  
>> Adev
>>> perspective.  I  used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site 
>> with
>>> 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At  least I
>>> still have
>>> a nice collection of frequency  counters.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent  from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On  2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
>> >>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Correct on all counts  Bob.
 
 My two 58503A units  from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
>>> measurements, better  than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel
>>> ULNs for  even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).   I
>>> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP   unit.
 
 Those 10811s just rule.
 
 In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related  small
>>> spurs you can see  in the plots...
 
 Bye,
 Said
 
 Sent From   iPhone
 
> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Campwrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style  package put
> around
>>> it - right?
> 
> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in  it rather than an MTI OCXO.
>>> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at   100 Hz. That is much better than the
>>> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem  to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only
>>> other GPSDO OCXO that gets  to that level is  the one in the original 
>> TBolts
>>> . There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor
>>> of  limited use in a practical system.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,   saidj...@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hi   Bob,
>> 
>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
>> good
>>> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
>> 
>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using  the 10811 OCXO) as a
>>> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA  (this  plot was actually done
>>> to show the

Re: [time-nuts] 10811

2014-11-18 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist


Yes, 5.1V Zeners (or something like that) have a "magic" zero tempco if
you put a conventional diode in series with it.  I used to know
stuff like that during the Jurassic period.

However, the diode in the 10811 is ovenized, so that is not so 
important. 6.2V was chosen to get +/- 5V tuning range, which was 
probably a spec inherited from the 10544.  Everything was done for a 
reason relevant to HP, which may or may not be a reason relevant to you.


The frequency of the 10811 is more sensitive to the temperature of
the oscillator transistor (a selected 2N5179) than the diode.  This
inspired the E1938A.

Rick

On 11/18/2014 2:31 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Rick:

When working on Tunnel Diode amplifiers we used (AFAICR) 5.1 V Zener
diodes to stabilize the lower voltage that drive the diode.
5.1V was supposed to have excellent temperature characteristics in terms
of repeatability (don't remember if low noise was part of the selection
criteria).
http://www.prc68.com/I/Aertech.shtml#TDA
The boards with the terminals have the Zener and a custom compensation
network using both Veco (spelling?) (-TC) and Balco (+TC) and fixed
resistors so that the gain stays constant over mil temperature ranges.

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 11/17/2014 5:54 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:

I ground one side of the tuning diode and use the 2 to 12 V as the
external
  OCXO for my FRK's along with increasing the time constant. I have not
verified it but I think removing the zener Voltage should also
improve  ADEV.
Bert Kehren



The choice for the Zener diode came from my old boss at HP,
who was very knowledgeable about using discrete zener diodes
as low noise references.  According to him, this particular
part number has very respectable noise.  This is just something
you have to know experientially, there is no theory of zener
noise AFAIK.  You might try measuring the noise of the 6.2V
reference voltage directly at baseband, and then multiplying
by the 1 Hz/volt sensitivity.  Let us know your results.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
(Now retired from HP/Agilent/Keysight)


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news

Hi Magnus:

Maybe it's moot. If a hunk of dark matter that's 0.75 of Earth's radius is inside the GPS orbit there's likely to be
bigger issues.

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Charles and Joe,

Read this, and hopefully you get smarter than from the write-up you linked:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.1244v2.pdf

I could not find any attempt at sensitivity scale required, and thus the feasability of actually detecting these
deviations.

From a quick look at it, I have a kind of notion of what they imply one should look for, but it's not really well
described exactly what to expect, but maybe it becomes clearer on a quality read-through. It is more suggestive than
detailed method proposing, enough to show the idea, but not enough to implement it, it needs the engineering on top of
it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/18/2014 03:12 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
outcome of the study is.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
wrote:

Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] 10811

2014-11-18 Thread Alan Melia

Yes below about 4v is the only place where you get the real "Zener" effect, 
as you go above 5v it becomes Avalanche Breakdown. The trick is zener effect 
has a negative tempco and avalanche a positive one (I thinkthey are 
opposite senses anyway :-))  ) the result is a regulator diode 
("zener"so called) specced at around 5 to 5.5 volts has a near zero 
overall tempco.


Alan
G3NYK



- Original Message - 
From: "Brooke Clarke" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811



Hi Rick:

When working on Tunnel Diode amplifiers we used (AFAICR) 5.1 V Zener 
diodes to stabilize the lower voltage that drive the diode.
5.1V was supposed to have excellent temperature characteristics in terms 
of repeatability (don't remember if low noise was part of the selection 
criteria).

http://www.prc68.com/I/Aertech.shtml#TDA
The boards with the terminals have the Zener and a custom compensation 
network using both Veco (spelling?) (-TC) and Balco (+TC) and fixed 
resistors so that the gain stays constant over mil temperature ranges.


Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 11/17/2014 5:54 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
I ground one side of the tuning diode and use the 2 to 12 V as the 
external

  OCXO for my FRK's along with increasing the time constant. I have not
verified it but I think removing the zener Voltage should also improve 
ADEV.

Bert Kehren



The choice for the Zener diode came from my old boss at HP,
who was very knowledgeable about using discrete zener diodes
as low noise references.  According to him, this particular
part number has very respectable noise.  This is just something
you have to know experientially, there is no theory of zener
noise AFAIK.  You might try measuring the noise of the 6.2V
reference voltage directly at baseband, and then multiplying
by the 1 Hz/volt sensitivity.  Let us know your results.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
(Now retired from HP/Agilent/Keysight)


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and follow the instructions there.



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[time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361 Web Page


Hi:

I've received the components of the Z3810A system and have some 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows 
and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one is for.  But need to find the connectors to make up the 
DC power cables.


http://www.prc68.com/I/KS-24361.html

Mail_Attachment --
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http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news

2014-11-18 Thread bownes

I read the article and thought it would make for an interesting crowd sourced 
project if the sensitivity is large enough to build a distributed sensor 
network with GPSDOs. 



> On Nov 18, 2014, at 17:15, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Charles and Joe,
> 
> Read this, and hopefully you get smarter than from the write-up you linked:
> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.1244v2.pdf
> 
> I could not find any attempt at sensitivity scale required, and thus the 
> feasability of actually detecting these deviations.
> 
> From a quick look at it, I have a kind of notion of what they imply one 
> should look for, but it's not really well described exactly what to expect, 
> but maybe it becomes clearer on a quality read-through. It is more suggestive 
> than detailed method proposing, enough to show the idea, but not enough to 
> implement it, it needs the engineering on top of it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
>> On 11/18/2014 03:12 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>> Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
>> outcome of the study is.
>> 
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
>>  wrote:
>>> Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Charles
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

2014-11-18 Thread pch.tns

Hi all

The easiest setup to get 10MHz out of the15MHz is using a SiLabs5351C and 
program it 15MHz in and 10MHz out. You have 8 outputs you can define.
Pics of my setup here  
and here 
. I am using this 
for all my SDR’s and conventional Rx/Tx with 10 MHz ref inputs. Works great.

Rgds

Peter, HB9DQY



> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:09, Don Murray via time-nuts  wrote:
> 
> TNX Paul and Anthony...
> 
> More questions...   ;-)
> 
> I see that the REF1 type unit outputs 15MHz...
> 
> The REF0 unit has both 15MHz and 10MHz...
> 
> So, if I am going to use GPS, I need REF1, but it only does  15MHz out,
> and I need 10MHz for my stuff...  so how do REF1 and REF0  interface??
> Or does it work that way??
> 
> TNX guys!!
> 
> 
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
> paulsw...@gmail.com writes:
> 
> In the  picture its the top unit ref1 and its the left hand TNC and it does
> power  the antenna.
> If no antenna you need to tie a resistor to ground on the tnc  to fake it
> out.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at  11:49 AM, Anthony Roby  wrote:
> 
>> If you  search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of
>> photos I posted.  This one
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the
>> front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>> 
>> Anthony
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don
>> Murray via  time-nuts
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
>> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom
>> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>> 
>> Hello all...
>> 
>> Just getting up to speed on the  KS-24361...
>> 
>> My stupid question (s)...
>> 
>> Where  does the GPS antenna connect??
>> 
>> Does the GPS antenna port power  the antenna?
>> 
>> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
>> 
>> TIA...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 73
>> Don
>> W4WJ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52  A.M. Central Standard Time,
>> m...@alignedsolutions.com  writes:
>> 
>> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811  ocxo iirc) also performs
>> similarly at  times to the 58503A  mentioned by Said.   From an adev
>> perspective
>>  it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so   
> iirc.)
>> At times though the output seems to "jump" in   frequency.   My other 
> Z3805
>> from the same source doesn't  work as  well.
>> 
>> None of the 10811's in my various pieces  of test gear (some of  which I
>> basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  
> Adev
>> perspective.  I  used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site 
> with
>> 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At  least I
>> still have
>> a nice collection of frequency  counters.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent  from my iPad
>> 
>> On  2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
> >> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>>> 
>>> My two 58503A units  from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
>> measurements, better  than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel
>> ULNs for  even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).   I
>> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP   unit.
>>> 
>>> Those 10811s just rule.
>>> 
>>> In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related  small
>> spurs you can see  in the plots...
>>> 
>>> Bye,
>>> Said
>>> 
>>> Sent From   iPhone
>>> 
 On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Campwrote:
 
 Hi
 
 The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style  package put
 around
>> it - right?
 
 If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in  it rather than an MTI OCXO.
>> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at   100 Hz. That is much better than the
>> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem  to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only
>> other GPSDO OCXO that gets  to that level is  the one in the original 
> TBolts
>> . There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor
>> of  limited use in a practical system.
 
 Bob
 
> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,   saidj...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi   Bob,
> 
> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
> good
>> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
> 
> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using  the 10811 OCXO) as a
>> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA  (this  plot was actually done
>> to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since  that unit actually  has less noise and
>> spurs than the 58503A we  can simply use it as the reference  for this
>> purpose).
> 
> The good news is that  getting the  close-in phase noise to be good
> is
>> very hard to  do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box alrea

Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

2014-11-18 Thread Anthony Roby

Don - rather than repeat info that has been posted over the course of the past 
3-4 weeks, suggest you start here 
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-October/087274.html

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Murray via 
time-nuts
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:10 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z381...

TNX Paul and Anthony...
 
More questions...   ;-)
 
I see that the REF1 type unit outputs 15MHz...
 
The REF0 unit has both 15MHz and 10MHz...
 
So, if I am going to use GPS, I need REF1, but it only does  15MHz out, and I 
need 10MHz for my stuff...  so how do REF1 and REF0  interface??
Or does it work that way??
 
TNX guys!!
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

In the  picture its the top unit ref1 and its the left hand TNC and it does 
power  the antenna.
If no antenna you need to tie a resistor to ground on the tnc  to fake it out.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at  11:49 AM, Anthony Roby  wrote:

> If you  search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set 
> of  photos I posted.  This one  
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the  
> front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>
>  Anthony
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don 
> Murray via  time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>
>  Hello all...
>
> Just getting up to speed on the  KS-24361...
>
> My stupid question (s)...
>
> Where  does the GPS antenna connect??
>
> Does the GPS antenna port power  the antenna?
>
> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
>
>  TIA...
>
>
>
> 73
> Don
>  W4WJ
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52  A.M. Central Standard Time, 
> m...@alignedsolutions.com  writes:
>
> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811  ocxo iirc) also performs
> similarly at  times to the 58503A  mentioned by Said.   From an adev
> perspective
>   it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so   
iirc.)
>  At times though the output seems to "jump" in   frequency.   My other 
Z3805
> from the same source doesn't  work as  well.
>
> None of the 10811's in my various pieces  of test gear (some of  which 
> I basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from 
> an
Adev
> perspective.  I  used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  
> site
with
>  10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At  least I
> still have
> a nice collection of frequency  counters.
>
>
> Sent  from my iPad
>
> On  2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
 >
> wrote:
>
> >  Correct on all counts  Bob.
> >
> > My two 58503A units  from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
> measurements, better  than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel
> ULNs for  even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).   I
> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP   unit.
> >
> > Those 10811s just rule.
> >
>  > In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related  
> small spurs you can see  in the plots...
> >
>  > Bye,
> > Said
> >
> > Sent From   iPhone
> >
> >> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Campwrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
>  >>
> >> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style  package put 
> >> around
> it - right?
>  >>
> >> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in  it rather than an MTI OCXO.
> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at   100 Hz. That is much better than the
> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem  to  produce at 100 Hz. About the 
> only other GPSDO OCXO that gets  to that level is  the one in the 
> original
TBolts
> . There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise 
> floor of  limited use in a practical system.
> >>
> >>  Bob
> >>
> >>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,   saidj...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi   Bob,
> >>>
> >>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite 
> >>> good
> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
>  >>>
> >>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using  the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA  (this  plot was actually 
> done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since  that unit actually  has less 
> noise and spurs than the 58503A we  can simply use it as the reference  
> for this purpose).
>  >>>
> >>> The good news is that  getting the  close-in phase noise to be 
> >>> good is
> very hard to  do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already.
> Filtering  out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy 
> to
do.
>  It should be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter  
> for those uni

Re: [time-nuts] 10811

Hi Rick:

When working on Tunnel Diode amplifiers we used (AFAICR) 5.1 V Zener diodes to stabilize the lower voltage that drive
the diode.
5.1V was supposed to have excellent temperature characteristics in terms of repeatability (don't remember if low noise
was part of the selection criteria).

http://www.prc68.com/I/Aertech.shtml#TDA
The boards with the terminals have the Zener and a custom compensation network using both Veco (spelling?) (-TC) and
Balco (+TC) and fixed resistors so that the gain stays constant over mil temperature ranges.

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 11/17/2014 5:54 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:

I ground one side of the tuning diode and use the 2 to 12 V as the external
OCXO for my FRK's along with increasing the time constant. I have not
verified it but I think removing the zener Voltage should also improve ADEV.
Bert Kehren

The choice for the Zener diode came from my old boss at HP,
who was very knowledgeable about using discrete zener diodes
as low noise references. According to him, this particular
part number has very respectable noise. This is just something
you have to know experientially, there is no theory of zener
noise AFAIK. You might try measuring the noise of the 6.2V
reference voltage directly at baseband, and then multiplying
by the 1 Hz/volt sensitivity. Let us know your results.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
(Now retired from HP/Agilent/Keysight)

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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question


Hi Jim:

A number of hams have built VFOs using this chip, for example here's some data:
http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/si570_kit_from_k5bcq.htm#Frequency_Spectrum
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Jim Lux wrote:

I'm sure someone here has fooled with the Si570.
I just got a few of them (CMOS output), and am about to deadbug one of them to fool with it (unless there's some 
convenient protoboard out there available.. I didn't look too long and hard, but some casual googling didn't find one).

Looking at AN334 from SiLabs:
It looks like you just need a 10nF bypass on the Vcc, a pull down on the OE (1k), 1k pullups to 3.3V on SDA/SCL (which 
is going to be driven by a 3.3V teensy 3.0/3.1 microcontroller)

150 ohm loads to ground, followed by a 0.1 uF DC block?

I'm going to be running it at less than 50 MHz (although the parts I got are 
preset to 100 MHz)

Any traps for the unwary?
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news


Hi Charles and Joe,

Read this, and hopefully you get smarter than from the write-up you linked:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.1244v2.pdf

I could not find any attempt at sensitivity scale required, and thus the 
feasability of actually detecting these deviations.


From a quick look at it, I have a kind of notion of what they imply one 
should look for, but it's not really well described exactly what to 
expect, but maybe it becomes clearer on a quality read-through. It is 
more suggestive than detailed method proposing, enough to show the idea, 
but not enough to implement it, it needs the engineering on top of it.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 11/18/2014 03:12 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
outcome of the study is.

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
 wrote:

Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?



Best regards,

Charles

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[time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long

Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh system
design for about 20 years.

Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats why
you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz double it
filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of thoughts on the
process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 running
so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] z3816 what happened?

Thats because everything is supr-dupr secret in them. I have a mighty
seriously dead z3801. I picked up for $ zip. Well fact is its still mighty
dead. :-)
I am generally pretty good at reverse engineering. But when it goes in the
micro or asics or fpga's. Life gets near impossible especially with out
anything but your eyeballs.
But my interest in the dead one was to explore. Have to say the dual ovens
well done but what an ungodly mess. The insulation stuff gets sticky like
tar after years.
The Z3801s issue was however in one of the ASICs. Such is life.
Yes you do need satstat at least or the z38xx program from germany. Its
free and at least would give you a clue.

If you are lucky the DAC is at the top or bottom of its range that happens.
You need to take the oven apart and adjust the course frequency.
Ugly issues
Taking the oven apart, ultimately putting it back together
Adjusting teh cap. Since it has not been moved in 20 years you can be sure
its going to go noisey on you.
Then you have to adjust to get the DAC back to mid range. Patience.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> Hi Paul...
>
> No...  As a matter of fact, it stoped working down if  Florida a few
> years back.  Went into the ALARM mode and that was  it!!  Had
> a HP Rb box, so didn't worry about it too much.
>
> Moved to Texas a few years ago...  Rb box on the shelf,  so decided
> to fire the 3816A up and see what would happen.  It had  been on the
> shelf for several years...
>
> So it came up and locked and we were good to go!!  But,  after a
> few weeks and the first practice FMT, the 3816A went back into  alarm.
>
> Had not been able to get the K8CU software going to talk to  the 3816A
> so don't know what the alarm is about.
>
> Have tried to recycle it again, but it comes up in the alarm  mode and
> that is where it sits.  Using it with the HP mushroom  antenna.
>
> That's my story, and no one seems to be working on these  guys...  ;-(
>
>
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:29:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> paulsw...@gmail.com writes:
>
> Wonder  if the ole lightning gods visited since you are in 4  land.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

2014-11-18 Thread Pete Lancashire

The item is (back) on ebay which has pretty good pictures

321560316836

-pete

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts
 wrote:
> TNX Peter!!
>
> I had only seen a picture of REF1, with no GPS  connector!!
>
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 1:07:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> pch@gmail.com writes:
>
> Hi  Don,
>
> J7, marked GPS antenna is a good start. This connector also powers  your
> GPS Antenna.
>
> Take care
>
> Peter
> HB9DQY
>
>
>> On  18 Nov 2014, at 11:49, Anthony Roby  wrote:
>>
>> If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set  of
> photos I posted.  This one
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the front  
> of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don
> Murray via  time-nuts
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
>> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom
> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>>
>> Hello  all...
>>
>> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
>>
>> My stupid question (s)...
>>
>> Where does the GPS antenna  connect??
>>
>> Does the GPS antenna port power the  antenna?
>>
>> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
>>
>> TIA...
>>
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Don
>> W4WJ
>>
>>
>>
>> In a  message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
>>
>> One of  my Z3805's  (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs
>> similarly  at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev
> perspective
>> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred  seconds or so
> iirc.)
>> At times though the output seems to "jump"  in  frequency.   My other
> Z3805
>> from the same source  doesn't work as  well.
>>
>> None of the 10811's in my various  pieces of test gear (some of  which I
> basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev
> perspective.  I used to  buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with
>> 10811's and  the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I
> still  have
>> a nice collection of frequency counters.
>>
>>
>> Sent  from my iPad
>>
>> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM,  Said Jackson via time-nuts
> 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>>>
>>> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and  PN
>> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I  have
> Wenzel ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any  usable  ADEV). 
>  I
> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete  against the HP  unit.
>>>
>>> Those 10811s just  rule.
>>>
>>> In fact my  only complaint about the  58503A are the 60Hz related small
>> spurs you can see  in the  plots...
>>>
>>> Bye,
>>> Said
>>>
>>> Sent From  iPhone
>>>
 On Nov 17,  2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:

 Hi

 The 58503 is a Z3801 with  a pretty instrument style package put
 around
>> it  - right?

 If so, it might / shouldhave a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO.
>> The 10811 is rated for  -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the
> noise floor that the  MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only
> other GPSDO OCXO that  gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts .
> There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of
> limited use  in a practical system.

 Bob

> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com  wrote:
>
> Hi   Bob,
>
> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
> good
>> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten  too.
>
> Here is one of my 58503A  units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
>> comparison.. measured against  our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done
> to show the DROR-IIA PN, but  since that unit actually  has less noise and
> spurs than the 58503A we can  simply use it as the reference  for this
> purpose).
>
> The good news is that  getting the close-in phase  noise to be good
> is
>> very hard to do and the  unit  delivers that out-of-the box already.
> Filtering out the noise and  spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It
> should be fairly  straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those
> units to get  rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
> In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific  Standard Time,
>> kb...@n1k.org writes:
>  Hi
>
> Here ??s the phase noise on the 15  MHz.  There are a few spurs, and
> an
>> very  real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The
>  15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve
> seen on the surplus market.
>
> I would  not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.
> I
>> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with  a rationa

Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

Peter...
 
OOOPS...  Had only seen a picture of REF0 which has no  GPS port!!
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 1:07:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
pch@gmail.com writes:

Hi  Don,

J7, marked GPS antenna is a good start. This connector also powers  your 
GPS Antenna.

Take care

Peter
HB9DQY


> On  18 Nov 2014, at 11:49, Anthony Roby  wrote:
>  
> If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set  of 
photos I posted.  This one  
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the front  
of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
> 
> Anthony
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don 
Murray via  time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
> 
> Hello  all...
> 
> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
>  
> My stupid question (s)...
> 
> Where does the GPS antenna  connect??
> 
> Does the GPS antenna port power the  antenna?
> 
> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
> 
> TIA...
> 
> 
>  
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ 
> 
> 
> 
> In a  message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
> 
> One of  my Z3805's  (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
> similarly  at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev  
perspective 
> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred  seconds or so  
iirc.) 
> At times though the output seems to "jump"  in  frequency.   My other 
Z3805 
> from the same source  doesn't work as  well.
> 
> None of the 10811's in my various  pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to  buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
> 10811's and  the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I 
still  have 
> a nice collection of frequency counters.
> 
>  
> Sent  from my iPad
> 
> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM,  Said Jackson via time-nuts  

>  wrote:
> 
>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>>  
>> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and  PN
> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I  have  
Wenzel ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any  usable  ADEV).  
I 
also have a costly BVA and it can't compete  against the HP  unit.
>> 
>> Those 10811s just  rule.
>> 
>> In fact my  only complaint about the  58503A are the 60Hz related small
> spurs you can see  in the  plots...
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Said
>>  
>> Sent From  iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 17,  2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>>>  
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with  a pretty instrument style package put  
>>> around
> it  - right?
>>> 
>>> If so, it might / shouldhave a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
> The 10811 is rated for  -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
noise floor that the  MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only 
other GPSDO OCXO that  gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . 
There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of 
limited use  in a practical system. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>>  
 On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com  wrote:
 
 Hi   Bob,
 
 yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite 
 good
> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten  too.
 
 Here is one of my 58503A  units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against  our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done 
to show the DROR-IIA PN, but  since that unit actually  has less noise and 
spurs than the 58503A we can  simply use it as the reference  for this 
purpose).
  
 The good news is that  getting the close-in phase  noise to be good 
 is
> very hard to do and the  unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. 
Filtering out the noise and  spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It 
should be fairly  straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those 
units to get  rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
  
 bye,
 Said
  
 In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific  Standard Time,
> kb...@n1k.org writes:
  Hi
 
 Here ??s the phase noise on the 15  MHz.  There are a few spurs, and 
 an
> very  real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 
 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve  
seen on the surplus market. 
 
 I would  not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.  
 I
> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with  a rational  bandwidth. 
You will beat the noise on the output with a  fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 
Hz. 
> No reason to have a  bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
  
 Math:
 
 15   MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) ->

Re: [time-nuts] z3816 what happened?

Hi Paul...
 
No...  As a matter of fact, it stoped working down if  Florida a few
years back.  Went into the ALARM mode and that was  it!!  Had
a HP Rb box, so didn't worry about it too much.
 
Moved to Texas a few years ago...  Rb box on the shelf,  so decided
to fire the 3816A up and see what would happen.  It had  been on the
shelf for several years...
 
So it came up and locked and we were good to go!!  But,  after a
few weeks and the first practice FMT, the 3816A went back into  alarm.
 
Had not been able to get the K8CU software going to talk to  the 3816A
so don't know what the alarm is about.
 
Have tried to recycle it again, but it comes up in the alarm  mode and
that is where it sits.  Using it with the HP mushroom  antenna.
 
That's my story, and no one seems to be working on these  guys...  ;-(
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:29:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

Wonder  if the ole lightning gods visited since you are in 4  land.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

TNX Peter!!
 
I had only seen a picture of REF1, with no GPS  connector!!
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 1:07:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
pch@gmail.com writes:

Hi  Don,

J7, marked GPS antenna is a good start. This connector also powers  your 
GPS Antenna.

Take care

Peter
HB9DQY


> On  18 Nov 2014, at 11:49, Anthony Roby  wrote:
>  
> If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set  of 
photos I posted.  This one  
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the front  
of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
> 
> Anthony
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don 
Murray via  time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
> 
> Hello  all...
> 
> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
>  
> My stupid question (s)...
> 
> Where does the GPS antenna  connect??
> 
> Does the GPS antenna port power the  antenna?
> 
> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
> 
> TIA...
> 
> 
>  
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ 
> 
> 
> 
> In a  message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
> 
> One of  my Z3805's  (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
> similarly  at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev  
perspective 
> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred  seconds or so  
iirc.) 
> At times though the output seems to "jump"  in  frequency.   My other 
Z3805 
> from the same source  doesn't work as  well.
> 
> None of the 10811's in my various  pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to  buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
> 10811's and  the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I 
still  have 
> a nice collection of frequency counters.
> 
>  
> Sent  from my iPad
> 
> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM,  Said Jackson via time-nuts  

>  wrote:
> 
>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>>  
>> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and  PN
> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I  have  
Wenzel ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any  usable  ADEV).  
I 
also have a costly BVA and it can't compete  against the HP  unit.
>> 
>> Those 10811s just  rule.
>> 
>> In fact my  only complaint about the  58503A are the 60Hz related small
> spurs you can see  in the  plots...
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Said
>>  
>> Sent From  iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 17,  2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>>>  
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with  a pretty instrument style package put  
>>> around
> it  - right?
>>> 
>>> If so, it might / shouldhave a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
> The 10811 is rated for  -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
noise floor that the  MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only 
other GPSDO OCXO that  gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . 
There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of 
limited use  in a practical system. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>>  
 On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com  wrote:
 
 Hi   Bob,
 
 yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite 
 good
> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten  too.
 
 Here is one of my 58503A  units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against  our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done 
to show the DROR-IIA PN, but  since that unit actually  has less noise and 
spurs than the 58503A we can  simply use it as the reference  for this 
purpose).
  
 The good news is that  getting the close-in phase  noise to be good 
 is
> very hard to do and the  unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. 
Filtering out the noise and  spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It 
should be fairly  straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those 
units to get  rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
  
 bye,
 Said
  
 In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific  Standard Time,
> kb...@n1k.org writes:
  Hi
 
 Here ??s the phase noise on the 15  MHz.  There are a few spurs, and 
 an
> very  real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 
 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve  
seen on the surplus market. 
 
 I would  not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.  
 I
> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with  a rational  bandwidth. 
You will beat the noise on the output with a  fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 
Hz. 
> No reason to have a  bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
  
 Math:
 
 15   MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.

Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z381...

TNX Paul and Anthony...
 
More questions...   ;-)
 
I see that the REF1 type unit outputs 15MHz...
 
The REF0 unit has both 15MHz and 10MHz...
 
So, if I am going to use GPS, I need REF1, but it only does  15MHz out,
and I need 10MHz for my stuff...  so how do REF1 and REF0  interface??
Or does it work that way??
 
TNX guys!!
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:28:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

In the  picture its the top unit ref1 and its the left hand TNC and it does
power  the antenna.
If no antenna you need to tie a resistor to ground on the tnc  to fake it
out.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at  11:49 AM, Anthony Roby  wrote:

> If you  search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of
>  photos I posted.  This one
>  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the
>  front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>
>  Anthony
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don
> Murray via  time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To:  time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent  KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom
> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>
>  Hello all...
>
> Just getting up to speed on the  KS-24361...
>
> My stupid question (s)...
>
> Where  does the GPS antenna connect??
>
> Does the GPS antenna port power  the antenna?
>
> Need a replacement for my dead HP  Z3816A...   ;-(
>
>  TIA...
>
>
>
> 73
> Don
>  W4WJ
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52  A.M. Central Standard Time,
> m...@alignedsolutions.com  writes:
>
> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811  ocxo iirc) also performs
> similarly at  times to the 58503A  mentioned by Said.   From an adev
> perspective
>   it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so   
iirc.)
>  At times though the output seems to "jump" in   frequency.   My other 
Z3805
> from the same source doesn't  work as  well.
>
> None of the 10811's in my various pieces  of test gear (some of  which I
> basically purchased to get the  10811's) worked all that well from an  
Adev
> perspective.  I  used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site 
with
>  10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At  least I
> still have
> a nice collection of frequency  counters.
>
>
> Sent  from my iPad
>
> On  2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
 >
> wrote:
>
> >  Correct on all counts  Bob.
> >
> > My two 58503A units  from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
> measurements, better  than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel
> ULNs for  even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).   I
> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP   unit.
> >
> > Those 10811s just rule.
> >
>  > In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related  small
> spurs you can see  in the plots...
> >
>  > Bye,
> > Said
> >
> > Sent From   iPhone
> >
> >> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Campwrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
>  >>
> >> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style  package put
> >> around
> it - right?
>  >>
> >> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in  it rather than an MTI OCXO.
> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at   100 Hz. That is much better than the
> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem  to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only
> other GPSDO OCXO that gets  to that level is  the one in the original 
TBolts
> . There you very  much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor
> of  limited use in a practical system.
> >>
> >>  Bob
> >>
> >>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,   saidj...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi   Bob,
> >>>
> >>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten,  no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
> >>> good
> till  about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
>  >>>
> >>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using  the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA  (this  plot was actually done
> to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since  that unit actually  has less noise and
> spurs than the 58503A we  can simply use it as the reference  for this
> purpose).
>  >>>
> >>> The good news is that  getting the  close-in phase noise to be good
> >>> is
> very hard to  do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already.
> Filtering  out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to 
do.
>  It should be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter  for
> those units to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz  offset.
> >>>
> >>> bye,
>  >>>  Said
> >>>
> >>> In a message  dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,
> kb...@n1k.org  writes:
> >>>  Hi
> >>>
>  >>> Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few  spurs, and
> >>> an
> very real hump out at the likely  frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The
> 15 MHz is pretty  clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve
> seen on  the surplus market.
> >>>
> >>> I woul

Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question


On 11/18/14, 11:19 AM, Orin Eman wrote:

I have one of these: http://sdr-kits.net/PA0KLT_Description.html

built with the CML output Si570 that goes to 1417 MHz (!)

There is a schematic in the assembly manual that's linked to from that
page.  They use 100n and 1n capacitors in parallel on Vdd and 4K7 pullups
on SCL/SDA.  They have 100n DC blocks directly on the output pins.

Into a 50 ohm load, the CML outputs produce about 4dBm as I recall.
Obviously, the CMOS output will be different.

There is a review of a different Si570 kit on the Clifton Labs site:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/si570_kit_from_k5bcq.htm

I got similar results comparing my kit against an HP 8640B.  The Si570
beats the 8640B close in just as shown on the Clifton Labs site.

Some Softrock SDR radios also use the Si570.  They use a single 10n
capacitor on Vdd and 2K2 pullups...:

http://www.wb5rvz.org/ensemble_rxtx/03_lo

I have the Softrock Ensemble RXTX.  It works fine on RX, but unfortunately
I have not been able to get satisfactory image rejection on TX.  I suspect
the FST3253.

So, it looks like decoupling isn't that critical - 10n or 100n||1n in these
examples.  1K pullups on SDA/SCL seem to be overkill and anything
reasonable <= 4K7 should work.

Orin.


thanks... looks like it's time to stop analyzing and go find a piece of 
copper clad to stick this thing down on.  I see a lunchtime project 
coming up,



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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question


On 11/18/14, 10:24 AM, Götz Romahn wrote:

Jim,
thre is some info at:
http://www.box73.de/product_info.php?products_id=1869
it's all in German. If you can read that, goto "Zusaztinformationen"
(additional informations) where you will find a comprehensive articel
(pdf-document) also in German language (no I have not played with it).
enjoy Götz


that was quite informative  (and not totally beyond my limited German 
vocabulary)


Looks like they just send the output out through a couple of DC blocks, 
with no load resistors.



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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question

2014-11-18 Thread Orin Eman

I have one of these: http://sdr-kits.net/PA0KLT_Description.html

built with the CML output Si570 that goes to 1417 MHz (!)

There is a schematic in the assembly manual that's linked to from that
page.  They use 100n and 1n capacitors in parallel on Vdd and 4K7 pullups
on SCL/SDA.  They have 100n DC blocks directly on the output pins.

Into a 50 ohm load, the CML outputs produce about 4dBm as I recall.
Obviously, the CMOS output will be different.

There is a review of a different Si570 kit on the Clifton Labs site:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/si570_kit_from_k5bcq.htm

I got similar results comparing my kit against an HP 8640B.  The Si570
beats the 8640B close in just as shown on the Clifton Labs site.

Some Softrock SDR radios also use the Si570.  They use a single 10n
capacitor on Vdd and 2K2 pullups...:

http://www.wb5rvz.org/ensemble_rxtx/03_lo

I have the Softrock Ensemble RXTX.  It works fine on RX, but unfortunately
I have not been able to get satisfactory image rejection on TX.  I suspect
the FST3253.

So, it looks like decoupling isn't that critical - 10n or 100n||1n in these
examples.  1K pullups on SDA/SCL seem to be overkill and anything
reasonable <= 4K7 should work.

Orin.

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> I'm sure someone here has fooled with the Si570.
> I just got a few of them (CMOS output), and am about to deadbug one of
> them to fool with it (unless there's some convenient protoboard out there
> available.. I didn't look too long and hard, but some casual googling
> didn't find one).
> Looking at AN334 from SiLabs:
> It looks like you just need a 10nF bypass on the Vcc, a pull down on the
> OE (1k), 1k pullups to 3.3V on SDA/SCL (which is going to be driven by a
> 3.3V teensy 3.0/3.1 microcontroller)
> 150 ohm loads to ground, followed by a 0.1 uF DC block?
>
> I'm going to be running it at less than 50 MHz (although the parts I got
> are preset to 100 MHz)
>
> Any traps for the unwary?
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

2014-11-18 Thread pch.tns

Hi Don,

J7, marked GPS antenna is a good start. This connector also powers your GPS 
Antenna.

Take care

Peter
HB9DQY


> On 18 Nov 2014, at 11:49, Anthony Roby  wrote:
> 
> If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of 
> photos I posted.  This one 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the front 
> of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Murray 
> via time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
> Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
> 
> Hello all...
> 
> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
> 
> My stupid question (s)...
> 
> Where does the GPS antenna connect??
> 
> Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?
> 
> Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(
> 
> TIA...
> 
> 
> 
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
> m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
> 
> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
> similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev 
> perspective 
> it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.) 
> At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805 
> from the same source doesn't work as  well.
> 
> None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
> basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
> perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
> 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I still 
> have 
> a nice collection of frequency counters.
> 
> 
> Sent  from my iPad
> 
> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
>> Correct on all counts  Bob.
>> 
>> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel 
> ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I also 
> have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.
>> 
>> Those 10811s just rule.
>> 
>> In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small
> spurs you can see  in the plots...
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Said
>> 
>> Sent From  iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put  
>>> around
> it - right?
>>> 
>>> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only other 
> GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . There 
> you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of limited 
> use in a practical system. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:
 
 Hi  Bob,
 
 yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite 
 good
> till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
 
 Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done to 
> show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and spurs 
> than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this purpose).
 
 The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good 
 is
> very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering 
> out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be 
> fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those units to 
> get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
 
 bye,
 Said
 
 In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,
> kb...@n1k.org writes:
 Hi
 
 Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and 
 an
> very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 15 
> MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve seen on 
> the surplus market. 
 
 I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier. 
 I
> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You 
> will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 Hz. 
> No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
 
 Math:
 
 15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.
 
 -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz
 
 You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of 
 a
> number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to

Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

2014-11-18 Thread Tom Miller

Yes, and the antenna voltage is 5 volts. So be sure to use a 5 volt antenna.

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony Roby" 
To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of 
photos I posted.  This one 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the 
front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don 
Murray via time-nuts

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

Hello all...

Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...

My stupid question (s)...

Where does the GPS antenna connect??

Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?

Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(

TIA...

73
Don
W4WJ

In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:

One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs
similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev 
perspective

it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.)
At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805
from the same source doesn't work as  well.

None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site 
with
10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I 
still have

a nice collection of frequency counters.

Sent  from my iPad

On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts 

wrote:

Correct on all counts  Bob.

My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel 
ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I 
also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.

Those 10811s just rule.

In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small

spurs you can see  in the plots...

Bye,
Said

Sent From  iPhone

On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:

Hi

The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put
around

it - right?

If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO.
The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
noise floor that the MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only 
other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original 
TBolts . There you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise 
floor of limited use in a practical system.

Bob

On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:

Hi  Bob,

yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
good

till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.

Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done 
to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and 
spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this 
purpose).

The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good
is
very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. 
Filtering out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. 
It should be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for 
those units to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.

bye,
 Said

In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,

kb...@n1k.org writes:

 Hi

Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and
an
very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 
15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve 
seen on the surplus market.

I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.
I
would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You 
will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 
Hz.

No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.

Math:

15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.

 -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz

You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of
a
number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to 
work fine for him.

Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question

2014-11-18 Thread Götz Romahn


Jim,
thre is some info at:
http://www.box73.de/product_info.php?products_id=1869
it's all in German. If you can read that, goto "Zusaztinformationen" 
(additional informations) where you will find a comprehensive articel 
(pdf-document) also in German language (no I have not played with it).

enjoy Götz

Am 18.11.2014 16:59, :

I'm sure someone here has fooled with the Si570.
I just got a few of them (CMOS output), and am about to deadbug one of
them to fool with it (unless there's some convenient protoboard out
there available.. I didn't look too long and hard, but some casual
googling didn't find one).
Looking at AN334 from SiLabs:
It looks like you just need a 10nF bypass on the Vcc, a pull down on the
OE (1k), 1k pullups to 3.3V on SDA/SCL (which is going to be driven by a
3.3V teensy 3.0/3.1 microcontroller)
150 ohm loads to ground, followed by a 0.1 uF DC block?

I'm going to be running it at less than 50 MHz (although the parts I got
are preset to 100 MHz)

Any traps for the unwary?
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[time-nuts] z3816 what happened?

Wonder if the ole lightning gods visited since you are in 4 land.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

In the picture its the top unit ref1 and its the left hand TNC and it does
power the antenna.
If no antenna you need to tie a resistor to ground on the tnc to fake it
out.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Anthony Roby  wrote:

> If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of
> photos I posted.  This one
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the
> front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.
>
> Anthony
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don
> Murray via time-nuts
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom
> Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812
>
> Hello all...
>
> Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
>
> My stupid question (s)...
>
> Where does the GPS antenna connect??
>
> Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?
>
> Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(
>
> TIA...
>
>
>
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:
>
> One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs
> similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev
> perspective
>  it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.)
>  At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805
> from the same source doesn't work as  well.
>
> None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I
> basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev
> perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with
> 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I
> still have
> a nice collection of frequency counters.
>
>
> Sent  from my iPad
>
> On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   >
> wrote:
>
> > Correct on all counts  Bob.
> >
> > My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
> measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel
> ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I
> also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.
> >
> > Those 10811s just rule.
> >
> > In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small
> spurs you can see  in the plots...
> >
> > Bye,
> > Said
> >
> > Sent From  iPhone
> >
> >> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put
> >> around
> it - right?
> >>
> >> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO.
> The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the
> noise floor that the MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only
> other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts
> . There you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor
> of limited use in a practical system.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi  Bob,
> >>>
> >>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
> >>> good
> till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
> >>>
> >>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
> comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done
> to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and
> spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this
> purpose).
> >>>
> >>> The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good
> >>> is
> very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already.
> Filtering out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do.
> It should be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for
> those units to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
> >>>
> >>> bye,
> >>>  Said
> >>>
> >>> In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,
> kb...@n1k.org writes:
> >>>  Hi
> >>>
> >>> Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and
> >>> an
> very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The
> 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve
> seen on the surplus market.
> >>>
> >>> I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.
> >>> I
> would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You
> will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100
> Hz.
> No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.
> >>>
> >>> Math:
> >>>
> >>> 15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.
> >>>
> >>>  -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz
> >>>
> >>> You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of
> >>> a
> number of prett

Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question

Clue-less.
As to the good code I have only found maybe 1 site. I thought there would
be more. I think it was hackaday.
Regards

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 11/18/14, 8:04 AM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> I just picked up the si5351a and the thing that jumps out at mee is the
>> 228
>> registers to program.
>> Granted it lets you create just about any frequency and there is a good
>> program that tells you what to set the registers to. But 228 registers is
>> a
>> lot.
>> The traditional I2C is indeed simple. Make sure you watch the LSB order
>> and
>> setup times.
>> I see there are various ebay class boards to connect to usb for a few $
>> and
>> also boards that let you program in Windows studio as an example.
>> Or as you want to do straight out of a micro.
>>
>
> yes, there are a lot of registers, but there is some code out there to
> manage them, which I haven't actually looked at.
>
> The micro I'm using does I2C quite nicely, and I've used it for a variety
> of devices.
>
> I was wondering more about RF aspects.. How much Power supply rejection do
> these things have (yeah, the ap note shows a single bypass cap, but that
> may be "good enough to demonstrate function")... and how much harmonic
> output content is there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question


On 11/18/14, 8:04 AM, paul swed wrote:

I just picked up the si5351a and the thing that jumps out at mee is the 228
registers to program.
Granted it lets you create just about any frequency and there is a good
program that tells you what to set the registers to. But 228 registers is a
lot.
The traditional I2C is indeed simple. Make sure you watch the LSB order and
setup times.
I see there are various ebay class boards to connect to usb for a few $ and
also boards that let you program in Windows studio as an example.
Or as you want to do straight out of a micro.


yes, there are a lot of registers, but there is some code out there to 
manage them, which I haven't actually looked at.


The micro I'm using does I2C quite nicely, and I've used it for a 
variety of devices.


I was wondering more about RF aspects.. How much Power supply rejection 
do these things have (yeah, the ap note shows a single bypass cap, but 
that may be "good enough to demonstrate function")... and how much 
harmonic output content is there.



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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

2014-11-18 Thread Anthony Roby

If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of photos 
I posted.  This one 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the front of 
the units. J7 provides the GPS power.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Murray via 
time-nuts
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

Hello all...
 
Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
 
My stupid question (s)...
 
Where does the GPS antenna connect??
 
Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?
 
Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(
 
TIA...
 
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ 

 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:

One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev perspective 
 it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.) 
 At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805 
from the same source doesn't work as  well.

None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I still 
have 
a nice collection of frequency counters.


Sent  from my iPad

On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts  
wrote:

> Correct on all counts  Bob.
> 
> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel ULNs 
for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I also have a 
costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.
> 
> Those 10811s just rule.
> 
> In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small
spurs you can see  in the plots...
> 
> Bye,
> Said
> 
> Sent From  iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>>  
>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put  
>> around
it - right?
>> 
>> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the noise 
floor that the MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only other GPSDO 
OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . There you 
very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of limited use in 
a practical system. 
>>  
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi  Bob,
>>> 
>>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite 
>>> good
till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
>>> 
>>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done to 
show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and spurs 
than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this purpose).
>>> 
>>> The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good 
>>> is
very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering 
out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be 
fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get 
rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
>>> 
>>> bye,
>>>  Said
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,
kb...@n1k.org writes:
>>>  Hi
>>> 
>>> Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and 
>>> an
very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 15 MHz 
is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve seen on the 
surplus market. 
>>>  
>>> I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier. 
>>> I
would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You will 
beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 Hz. 
No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
>>> 
>>> Math:
>>> 
>>> 15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.
>>> 
>>>  -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz
>>>  
>>> You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of 
>>> a
number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to  work 
fine for him. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>>  
>>> 
>> 
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> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
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>  

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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay KS-24361 may be gone. I emailed ASI to confirm.

2014-11-18 Thread Gerhard Hoffmann


Am 18.11.2014 um 04:02 schrieb paul swed:

Wow they are turning to gold right before our eyes.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL


Price is down to $150 again. And I've just ordered mine :-)

Maybe I should have taken another one, then I could do a four-cornered hat.

regards, Gerhard, dk4xp





On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Frederick Bray 
wrote:


Looks like the price has now gone back up to $200.  It will be interesting
to watch to see how many sell at that price and whether they go back on
sale.  At this point, 55 are reported sold with more than 10 available.

In terms of quantity available, the old/original shipping label on mine
(which arrived last week) indicated that it was 32 of 135 in the original
shipment.  This may or may not have any significance in terms of the total
number the seller may have available.

Fred

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Re: [time-nuts] 10811

2014-11-18 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist




On 11/17/2014 5:54 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:

I ground one side of the tuning diode and use the 2 to 12 V as the external
  OCXO for my FRK's along with increasing the time constant. I have not
verified it but I think removing the zener Voltage should also improve  ADEV.
Bert Kehren



The choice for the Zener diode came from my old boss at HP,
who was very knowledgeable about using discrete zener diodes
as low noise references.  According to him, this particular
part number has very respectable noise.  This is just something
you have to know experientially, there is no theory of zener
noise AFAIK.  You might try measuring the noise of the 6.2V
reference voltage directly at baseband, and then multiplying
by the 1 Hz/volt sensitivity.  Let us know your results.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
(Now retired from HP/Agilent/Keysight)


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[time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

Hello all...
 
Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...
 
My stupid question (s)...
 
Where does the GPS antenna connect??
 
Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?
 
Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(
 
TIA...
 
 
 
73
Don
W4WJ 

 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:

One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs 
similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev perspective 
 it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.) 
 At times though the output seems to "jump" in  frequency.   My other Z3805 
from the same source doesn't work as  well.

None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site with 
10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I still 
have 
a nice collection of frequency counters.


Sent  from my iPad

On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts   
wrote:

> Correct on all counts  Bob.
> 
> My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN 
measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel ULNs 
for 
even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I also have a 
costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.
> 
> Those 10811s just rule.
> 
> In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small 
spurs you can see  in the plots...
> 
> Bye,
> Said
> 
> Sent From  iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp   wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>>  
>> The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put  around 
it - right?
>> 
>> If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. 
The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
noise floor that the MTI’s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only other 
GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original TBolts . There 
you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise floor of limited 
use in a practical system. 
>>  
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi  Bob,
>>> 
>>> yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite good 
till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.
>>> 
>>> Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a 
comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done to 
show the 
DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and spurs than the 
58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this purpose).
>>> 
>>> The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good is 
very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering 
out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should 
be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for those units 
to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.
>>> 
>>> bye,
>>>  Said
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time, 
kb...@n1k.org writes:
>>>  Hi
>>> 
>>> Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and an 
very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 15 
MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I’ve seen on the 
surplus market. 
>>>  
>>> I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier. I 
would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You 
will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 Hz. 
No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.  
>>> 
>>> Math:
>>> 
>>> 15  MHz to 150 MHz -> 20 log (N) -> 20 db.
>>> 
>>>  -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset -> -120 dbc/Hz
>>>  
>>> You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of a 
number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to  work 
fine for him. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>>  
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Si570 question

I just picked up the si5351a and the thing that jumps out at mee is the 228
registers to program.
Granted it lets you create just about any frequency and there is a good
program that tells you what to set the registers to. But 228 registers is a
lot.
The traditional I2C is indeed simple. Make sure you watch the LSB order and
setup times.
I see there are various ebay class boards to connect to usb for a few $ and
also boards that let you program in Windows studio as an example.
Or as you want to do straight out of a micro.
Regards
Paul

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> I'm sure someone here has fooled with the Si570.
> I just got a few of them (CMOS output), and am about to deadbug one of
> them to fool with it (unless there's some convenient protoboard out there
> available.. I didn't look too long and hard, but some casual googling
> didn't find one).
> Looking at AN334 from SiLabs:
> It looks like you just need a 10nF bypass on the Vcc, a pull down on the
> OE (1k), 1k pullups to 3.3V on SDA/SCL (which is going to be driven by a
> 3.3V teensy 3.0/3.1 microcontroller)
> 150 ohm loads to ground, followed by a 0.1 uF DC block?
>
> I'm going to be running it at less than 50 MHz (although the parts I got
> are preset to 100 MHz)
>
> Any traps for the unwary?
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[time-nuts] Si570 question


I'm sure someone here has fooled with the Si570.
I just got a few of them (CMOS output), and am about to deadbug one of 
them to fool with it (unless there's some convenient protoboard out 
there available.. I didn't look too long and hard, but some casual 
googling didn't find one).

Looking at AN334 from SiLabs:
It looks like you just need a 10nF bypass on the Vcc, a pull down on the 
OE (1k), 1k pullups to 3.3V on SDA/SCL (which is going to be driven by a 
3.3V teensy 3.0/3.1 microcontroller)

150 ohm loads to ground, followed by a 0.1 uF DC block?

I'm going to be running it at less than 50 MHz (although the parts I got 
are preset to 100 MHz)


Any traps for the unwary?
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Re: [time-nuts] RFTG-u REF 0 Z3812 as cleanup module for FEI5680A

2014-11-18 Thread Bert Kehren via time-nuts

I would not mess with the power management of the unit, HP did know what  
they where doing. Any clean up I would move off the unit if you want to stay  
with the same OCXO you have one in the second unit. 
As to phase noise before time nuts issues took up all my time low noise  
signal generators where my main focus and will be again. I know of no high  
quality Sig. Gen  that does not include a 100 MHz XO and in some cases  higher 
frequency SAW units. And that has been going on for as long as I can  
remember and I am 72.
One subject no one has touched on is thermal control. I do not know but  
suspect forced air cooling that would explain why all connectors on the front. 
 From comments by some members we are looking at 20 W. I will include a fan 
along  with temperature control.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 11/18/2014 12:21:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
don_he...@gmx.de writes:

Hello  List,

having not looked at the spectra yet as I am confined to mobile  phone 
instead of PC often, I had the idea to marry those two well-known  
devices to get a nice clean reference oscillator. I remember the  
spectrum of the FEI as not so nice, and the MTI sounds  better.


My understanding is yet that I would need to emulate the  REF1 unit, 
basically need to look up the "lonely REF" tweak with the  bridges in J5, 
maybe fake valid GPS datagrams with a microcontroller and  turn the 1PPS 
pulse from the FEI into that 2 PPSes  expected.

Replacing the Lucent Power Brick with a linear supply and  bridging the 
tripler to get 5 MHz out might be tweaks to increase the  output spectrum 
further. This was discussed before, I think, i have to  look it up too.

(I wonder if the REF0 acts up after complete removal of  the source REF1 
or keep on doing holdover which would be a nice way to  take a good 
frequency standard to a ham radio repeater  side)

BR

Hendrik

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS in the news

2014-11-18 Thread Joseph Gray

Yes, I read that yesterday. It will be interesting to hear what the
outcome of the study is.

Joe Gray
W5JG


On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz
 wrote:
> Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?
>
> 
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
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[time-nuts] GPS in the news

2014-11-18 Thread Charles Steinmetz


Dark matter the source of GPS irregularities?



Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] RFTG-u REF 0 Z3812 as cleanup module for FEI5680A

Hi

At this point there is no “proof” that the non-GPS REF-0 will run by it’s self. 
My guess is that it will operate on it’s own with faked GPS messages. 

Since the REF-0 has a 10 MHz output, there is less need to immediately change 
around the 15 MHz output. 

The power brick would be a bit complicated to remove. It’s a triple output unit.

Bob

> On Nov 18, 2014, at 12:08 AM, Hendrik Dietrich  wrote:
> 
> Hello List,
> 
> having not looked at the spectra yet as I am confined to mobile phone instead 
> of PC often, I had the idea to marry those two well-known devices to get a 
> nice clean reference oscillator. I remember the spectrum of the FEI as not so 
> nice, and the MTI sounds better.
> 
> 
> My understanding is yet that I would need to emulate the REF1 unit, basically 
> need to look up the "lonely REF" tweak with the bridges in J5, maybe fake 
> valid GPS datagrams with a microcontroller and turn the 1PPS pulse from the 
> FEI into that 2 PPSes expected.
> 
> Replacing the Lucent Power Brick with a linear supply and bridging the 
> tripler to get 5 MHz out might be tweaks to increase the output spectrum 
> further. This was discussed before, I think, i have to look it up too.
> 
> (I wonder if the REF0 acts up after complete removal of the source REF1 or 
> keep on doing holdover which would be a nice way to take a good frequency 
> standard to a ham radio repeater side)
> 
> BR
> 
> Hendrik
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811's