date:20141206

On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:16:14 -0500
Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Running one locked to each system is really the only approach that makes
 sense. There inevitably are minor differences in systems and trying to
 average things out is not the best way to do it.

Might or might not be. At least for GPS and Galileo there is an agreement
to synchronize the clocks and have a field in the message data that specifies
the difference between UTC(GPS) and UTC(Galileo). 

There was some discussion at last EFTF about how they are going to measure
the time difference accurately. Apparently the GPS people were not impressed
by Galileos plan to have a physical realization of UTC(Galileo). They seem to
have run into problems in the past and have thus switched to a paper clock.


Attila Kinali
-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

2014-12-06 Thread Bert Kehren via time-nuts

Provided the unit works one simple way to get an idea as to the health of  
the tube is  to insert a plain multi meter in the 200 mV position. That  
inserts a 10 M resistor in series and you can calculate beam current.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 12/5/2014 8:38:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
b...@evoria.net writes:

Hi  Magnus,
I'll certainly do that, but I'm waiting to pull the panels until I  know 
that it works.  I don't want a finger pointing at me saying I broke  it.  The 
reason I posed the question was that I'm wondering if this  thing, at 11 1/2 
years old, is on it's last dying legs.  But, I suppose I  won't find that 
out until it's powered up and I can download the status  string.  What will I 
be looking for?  I think I've read something  about ion pump current from 
past posts about rehabilitating an old Cs  standard.  I'll have to go back 
through that  thread.

Bob

From: Magnus Danielson  mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com 
Cc:  mag...@rubidium.se 
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 6:10 PM
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

Bob,

Do open up and  take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)

Bet the bottom plate is a  good start.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/05/2014 10:31 PM, Bob  Stewart wrote:
 Hi Magnus,
 It came in today.  Looks good  from the outside.  No obviously bad 
smells, but I can't power it up, as  my PSU hasn't come in yet.

 There is a paper Datum tag dated  6/2/03 on the outside.  Looking through 
the vent holes, I can see a Datum  Cesium Beam Tube assembly Model Number 
7613A/077, Part Number 74514-110.   I can see that the back two panels have 
been removed and replaced, but nothing  obvious has been done on the inside.  
There are two SMB connectors on the  main board that don't have anything 
plugged in, but there's nothing obvious  that they'd connect to.  Does any of 
that tell me something that I don't  want to know?  It's going to be a long 
wait till Monday.   =)

 Bob

From: Magnus  Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
  To:  time-nuts@febo.com
 Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
  Sent:  Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  PRS-45 Cs Standard

 Hi Bob,

 The manual is in  your inbox.
 It also describes a DS1 interface, which should be  interesting to know
 what the odd telecom signals is about.  :)

 Cheers,
 Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

I sent him the manual so that the serial readout of that digital cesium 
becomes easy and trivial.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 10:56 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:

Provided the unit works one simple way to get an idea as to the health of
the tube is  to insert a plain multi meter in the 200 mV position. That
inserts a 10 M resistor in series and you can calculate beam current.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 12/5/2014 8:38:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
b...@evoria.net writes:

Hi  Magnus,
I'll certainly do that, but I'm waiting to pull the panels until I  know
that it works.  I don't want a finger pointing at me saying I broke  it.  The
reason I posed the question was that I'm wondering if this  thing, at 11 1/2
years old, is on it's last dying legs.  But, I suppose I  won't find that
out until it's powered up and I can download the status  string.  What will I
be looking for?  I think I've read something  about ion pump current from
past posts about rehabilitating an old Cs  standard.  I'll have to go back
through that  thread.

Bob

From: Magnus Danielson  mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc:  mag...@rubidium.se
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 6:10 PM
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

Bob,

Do open up and  take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)

Bet the bottom plate is a  good start.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/05/2014 10:31 PM, Bob  Stewart wrote:

Hi Magnus,
It came in today.  Looks good  from the outside.  No obviously bad

smells, but I can't power it up, as  my PSU hasn't come in yet.


There is a paper Datum tag dated  6/2/03 on the outside.  Looking through

the vent holes, I can see a Datum  Cesium Beam Tube assembly Model Number
7613A/077, Part Number 74514-110.   I can see that the back two panels have
been removed and replaced, but nothing  obvious has been done on the inside.
There are two SMB connectors on the  main board that don't have anything
plugged in, but there's nothing obvious  that they'd connect to.  Does any of
that tell me something that I don't  want to know?  It's going to be a long
wait till Monday.   =)


Bob

From: Magnus  Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
  To:  time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
  Sent:  Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  PRS-45 Cs Standard

Hi Bob,

The manual is in  your inbox.
It also describes a DS1 interface, which should be  interesting to know
what the odd telecom signals is about.  :)

Cheers,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

2014-12-06 Thread Azelio Boriani

The 2014 EFTF abstracts are available here: (55MB ZIP file)
http://www.eftf-2014.ch/media/EFTF-2014-USB-DRIVE_20140624.zip

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:
 On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:16:14 -0500
 Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Running one locked to each system is really the only approach that makes
 sense. There inevitably are minor differences in systems and trying to
 average things out is not the best way to do it.

 Might or might not be. At least for GPS and Galileo there is an agreement
 to synchronize the clocks and have a field in the message data that specifies
 the difference between UTC(GPS) and UTC(Galileo).

 There was some discussion at last EFTF about how they are going to measure
 the time difference accurately. Apparently the GPS people were not impressed
 by Galileos plan to have a physical realization of UTC(Galileo). They seem to
 have run into problems in the past and have thus switched to a paper clock.


 Attila Kinali
 --
 I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
 the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
 even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
 superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
 -- Sophie Scholl
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361 RS-422 interface pinout

2014-12-06 Thread Hal Murray


From a few days ago...

go...@g-romahn.de said:
 Pins 4 and 8 look like inputs.  Does anybody know what you
 can send in there?

 Hal, it's already known to us:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts%40febo.com/msg69593.html 

Thanks.

Summary:
  If you send ptim:tcod:cont 0, that turns off the automatic (continuous) 
time messages.
  It doesn't turn on sending scpi   to tell you when it is ready for 
another command.

Without the scpi, I thought a short delay might be needed.  Except for two 
cases, it isn't.  There may be more cases that I haven't discovered.

The first case is switching to T2 mode.  It takes about a second for the scpi 
on the Diagnostic port.  I assume it's writing to flash.  A delay in that 
path works without any delay in the normal case.

The other case that needs special handling is the status page.  I check for 
Self Test:, then in the normal case discard the scpi.

I have python code that does what I want and works on both J6 (no scpi) and 
J8 (with scpi).  Every 30 seconds, it reads several parameters and writes 
them to a log file, then displays the status page.  Poke me off-list if you 
want a copy.  It's running on Linux but might be easy to port to Windows.

The bottom line is that you (or NTP) can get both the text interface and PPS 
on a single connector.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

2014-12-06 Thread Didier Juges

Magnus and all,

Thanks for the heads up, the Upload Instruction link has been fixed.

The short of it:
click on the Upload File button, use manuals for both login and
password, enter your email and any message for me (optional), select your
file, fill the info the fields about the document as suggested and click
Upload.

Didier KO4BB


On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 Charles,

 On 12/06/2014 02:30 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:


  Do open up and take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)
 Bet the bottom plate is a good start.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 Perhaps you can also post the manual to Didier's site (ko4bb.com) so we
 can all follow along?


 1) It's the standard FTS4065 manual.
 2) It was quicker to email it than locate the link.
 3) The upload instruction is unreadable, so I can't upload to Didier's
 site.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard


FTS4065C revision J manual uploaded.

I knew the login and password where some fake values, but I just could 
not locate it and didnt' have them cached.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 01:56 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

Magnus and all,

Thanks for the heads up, the Upload Instruction link has been fixed.

The short of it:
click on the Upload File button, use manuals for both login and
password, enter your email and any message for me (optional), select your
file, fill the info the fields about the document as suggested and click
Upload.

Didier KO4BB


On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

wrote:



Charles,

On 12/06/2014 02:30 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:



  Do open up and take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)

Bet the bottom plate is a good start.

Cheers,
Magnus



Perhaps you can also post the manual to Didier's site (ko4bb.com) so we
can all follow along?



1) It's the standard FTS4065 manual.
2) It was quicker to email it than locate the link.
3) The upload instruction is unreadable, so I can't upload to Didier's
site.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

Hi


 On Dec 6, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:
 
 On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 21:16:14 -0500
 Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
 Running one locked to each system is really the only approach that makes
 sense. There inevitably are minor differences in systems and trying to
 average things out is not the best way to do it.
 
 Might or might not be. At least for GPS and Galileo there is an agreement
 to synchronize the clocks and have a field in the message data that specifies
 the difference between UTC(GPS) and UTC(Galileo). 

Which would help a bit for timing in this case. 

 
 There was some discussion at last EFTF about how they are going to measure
 the time difference accurately. Apparently the GPS people were not impressed
 by Galileos plan to have a physical realization of UTC(Galileo). They seem to
 have run into problems in the past and have thus switched to a paper clock.

It’s the coordination part that gets “interesting”. It requires more effort on 
both ends than one might think. Without getting into politics, that might be 
less practical with some of the other systems. 

Bob 

 
 
   Attila Kinali
 -- 
 I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
 the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
 even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
 superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
   -- Sophie Scholl
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

Recall that beyond GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO and Big Dipper (COMPASS) you 
also have WAAS/EGNOS and other SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation Systems).


If you open up all of them, there is a lot of signals in the air.
Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 01:16 AM, lincoln wrote:

Hello,
One vendor we starts nimea strings with BD and GN instead of GP ie 
$GPGGA,blab, blab becomes $BDGGA,blab and $GNGGA,blab

If all systems are selected and the receiver has enough of each system you can 
have up to three $*GGA messages per update.

Link
On Dec 5, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Iain Young i...@g7iii.net wrote:


On 05/12/14 22:40, Bob Camp wrote:


Typically they let you selectively enable each of the major systems. As you 
enable more systems, you get more sat’s in each of the messages. For most 
users, there is not a lot of reason to enable multiple systems. If you want UTC 
sync’d to USNO you enable one system. If you want to set your watch to time 
from Moscow, you enable another system …. Setting your watch to both is 
impractical.


Time-nuts will buy multiple, enable one major system on each, and
compare, and draw ADEV plots!


Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

Hi

 On Dec 6, 2014, at 8:47 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
 wrote:
 
 Recall that beyond GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO and Big Dipper (COMPASS) you also 
 have WAAS/EGNOS and other SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation Systems).
 
 If you open up all of them, there is a lot of signals in the air.
 Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.

…. and when you add all the corrections on top of the “base” signals, 
coordinating just gets more messy. 

Bob

 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 12/06/2014 01:16 AM, lincoln wrote:
 Hello,
  One vendor we starts nimea strings with BD and GN instead of GP ie 
 $GPGGA,blab, blab becomes $BDGGA,blab and $GNGGA,blab
 
 If all systems are selected and the receiver has enough of each system you 
 can have up to three $*GGA messages per update.
 
 Link
 On Dec 5, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Iain Young i...@g7iii.net wrote:
 
 On 05/12/14 22:40, Bob Camp wrote:
 
 Typically they let you selectively enable each of the major systems. As 
 you enable more systems, you get more sat’s in each of the messages. For 
 most users, there is not a lot of reason to enable multiple systems. If 
 you want UTC sync’d to USNO you enable one system. If you want to set your 
 watch to time from Moscow, you enable another system …. Setting your watch 
 to both is impractical.
 
 Time-nuts will buy multiple, enable one major system on each, and
 compare, and draw ADEV plots!
 
 
 Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

On Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:47:54 +0100
Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.

AFAIK there is no satellite with L5 capabilities in space yet.
Also L2C is still marked as unhealthy.

Attila Kinali

-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

On Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:49:53 +0100
Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@gmail.com wrote:

 The 2014 EFTF abstracts are available here: (55MB ZIP file)
 http://www.eftf-2014.ch/media/EFTF-2014-USB-DRIVE_20140624.zip

The papers are also online, but only available to those who were
at the conference.

Attila Kinali

-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

2014-12-06 Thread Edesio Costa e Silva

According to http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=1
the L2C and L5 signals are now available.

Edésio

On Sat, Dec 06, 2014 at 03:18:25PM +0100, Attila Kinali wrote:
 On Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:47:54 +0100
 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
 
  Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.
 
 AFAIK there is no satellite with L5 capabilities in space yet.
 Also L2C is still marked as unhealthy.
 
   Attila Kinali
 
 -- 
 I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
 the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
 even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
 superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
   -- Sophie Scholl
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

2014-12-06 Thread Jim Lux


On 12/6/14, 6:18 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:47:54 +0100
Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.


AFAIK there is no satellite with L5 capabilities in space yet.
Also L2C is still marked as unhealthy.

Attila Kinali



There are at least 2 satellites radiating L5, maybe more.  We've 
received and processed the signals (and those from L2c) on the JPL 
software receiver on ISS. (making a first.. first triband receiver in 
space, etc.)


I'm pretty sure the L2c signals have been radiated for a while. If 
they're not marked good, it's probably because the formal validation 
process hasn't completed.


(in fact, a quick trip to gps.gov says for L2C Pre-operational signal 
broadcasting from 14 GPS satellites (as of November 7, 2014) and for L5 
Pre-operational signal broadcasting from 7 GPS satellites (as of 
November 7, 2014)


So, not a whole constellation, but the signals are there.


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[time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you want
to select the highest central peak.
However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
be off?
I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
easy to get on to the wrong peak.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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[time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?




Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 6DT, UK.
Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals


You can use them as additional nav birds too.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 03:09 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Dec 6, 2014, at 8:47 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

Recall that beyond GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO and Big Dipper (COMPASS) you also have 
WAAS/EGNOS and other SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation Systems).

If you open up all of them, there is a lot of signals in the air.
Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.


…. and when you add all the corrections on top of the “base” signals, 
coordinating just gets more messy.

Bob



Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 01:16 AM, lincoln wrote:

Hello,
One vendor we starts nimea strings with BD and GN instead of GP ie 
$GPGGA,blab, blab becomes $BDGGA,blab and $GNGGA,blab

If all systems are selected and the receiver has enough of each system you can 
have up to three $*GGA messages per update.

Link
On Dec 5, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Iain Young i...@g7iii.net wrote:


On 05/12/14 22:40, Bob Camp wrote:


Typically they let you selectively enable each of the major systems. As you 
enable more systems, you get more sat’s in each of the messages. For most 
users, there is not a lot of reason to enable multiple systems. If you want UTC 
sync’d to USNO you enable one system. If you want to set your watch to time 
from Moscow, you enable another system …. Setting your watch to both is 
impractical.


Time-nuts will buy multiple, enable one major system on each, and
compare, and draw ADEV plots!


Iain
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

On Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:35:16 -0200
Edesio Costa e Silva time-n...@tardis.net.br wrote:

 According to http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=1
 the L2C and L5 signals are now available.

Oh.must have missed that.

Thanks!

Attila Kinali

-- 
I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in
the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous
even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being
superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.
-- Sophie Scholl
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard

2014-12-06 Thread Didier Juges

Thanks Magnus, and apologies to all for the not-so-smooth conversion to
the new site. I still have a few random bugs that I am trying to squash and
I appreciate your patience...

On the other hand, performance of the new server seems to be good.

Didier KO4BB

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 FTS4065C revision J manual uploaded.

 I knew the login and password where some fake values, but I just could
 not locate it and didnt' have them cached.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 On 12/06/2014 01:56 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

 Magnus and all,

 Thanks for the heads up, the Upload Instruction link has been fixed.

 The short of it:
 click on the Upload File button, use manuals for both login and
 password, enter your email and any message for me (optional), select your
 file, fill the info the fields about the document as suggested and click
 Upload.

 Didier KO4BB


 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

 wrote:


  Charles,

 On 12/06/2014 02:30 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:


   Do open up and take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)

 Bet the bottom plate is a good start.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 Perhaps you can also post the manual to Didier's site (ko4bb.com) so we
 can all follow along?


 1) It's the standard FTS4065 manual.
 2) It was quicker to email it than locate the link.
 3) The upload instruction is unreadable, so I can't upload to Didier's
 site.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals


Attila,

On 12/06/2014 03:18 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:47:54 +0100
Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.


AFAIK there is no satellite with L5 capabilities in space yet.


There is at least 7 of them now. See this message on 18 Sep:

All CGSIC:
The seventh GPS-IIF satellite, SVN-68/PRN-09, launched on 02 August 
2014, was set to healthy and usable last night.  This brings the number 
of satellites transmitting the L2C signal to 14 and those transmitting 
the L5 signal to 07.  The next GPS-IIF satellite, IIF-8/SVN-69 is 
tentatively scheduled for launch on 29 Oct 2014.


So I expect there to be 8 by now.


Also L2C is still marked as unhealthy.


Indeed. Receivers exists that do track it never the less.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Hi

Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you can 
also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of the 
others and your ADEV degrades. 

Transition wise … not a good idea at all.

Bob

 On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Bob
Thanks but can you actually see that on the frequency out at 5 Mhz.
If on the wrong transition or peak shouldn't that translate into an offset
also.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Hi

 Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
 can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

 Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of
 the others and your ADEV degrades.

 Transition wise … not a good idea at all.

 Bob

  On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
  Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
  Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
 want
  to select the highest central peak.
  However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
  be off?
  I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
  easy to get on to the wrong peak.
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

Hi

 On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
 
 I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
 it due to the fact it had a bad tube.
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108
 
 I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
 practical to replace the tube?
 

New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern one 
re-tubed with a high performance tube is  $32K. 

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes you see 
are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any Cs) is just how 
many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically move Cs from one end 
of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One you have exhausted 
the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also coated all over the inside 
with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very important, the drop in Cs 
at end of life and crud on the inside leads to degradation in the performance 
towards the end of the tube life. Even if the tube works, it may (or may not) 
be useful in a given application. 

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their performance 
rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way cheaper, and they 
don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high performance tube in it, 
a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance. I’ve replaced two tubes in one 
of those, so they are correct when they talk about the projected life of the 
tube. 

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going to do it 
“right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does require you to do 
all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may not be an issue on the 
surplus market ….

Bob

 
 
 
 Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
 Kirkby Microwave Ltd
 Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 6DT, 
 UK.
 Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
 http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
 Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)
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Re: [time-nuts] FYI: Galileo satellite recovered and transmitting navigation signals

HI

Use these systems for navigation? What a silly idea. I’m *sure* they are mainly 
intend to deliver precise timing to people’s basement labs :) 

Bob


 On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
 wrote:
 
 You can use them as additional nav birds too.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 12/06/2014 03:09 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 On Dec 6, 2014, at 8:47 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org 
 wrote:
 
 Recall that beyond GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO and Big Dipper (COMPASS) you also 
 have WAAS/EGNOS and other SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation Systems).
 
 If you open up all of them, there is a lot of signals in the air.
 Also, GPS L2C and L5 signals is already there.
 
 …. and when you add all the corrections on top of the “base” signals, 
 coordinating just gets more messy.
 
 Bob
 
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 12/06/2014 01:16 AM, lincoln wrote:
 Hello,
One vendor we starts nimea strings with BD and GN instead of GP ie 
 $GPGGA,blab, blab becomes $BDGGA,blab and $GNGGA,blab
 
 If all systems are selected and the receiver has enough of each system you 
 can have up to three $*GGA messages per update.
 
 Link
 On Dec 5, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Iain Young i...@g7iii.net wrote:
 
 On 05/12/14 22:40, Bob Camp wrote:
 
 Typically they let you selectively enable each of the major systems. As 
 you enable more systems, you get more sat’s in each of the messages. For 
 most users, there is not a lot of reason to enable multiple systems. If 
 you want UTC sync’d to USNO you enable one system. If you want to set 
 your watch to time from Moscow, you enable another system …. Setting 
 your watch to both is impractical.
 
 Time-nuts will buy multiple, enable one major system on each, and
 compare, and draw ADEV plots!
 
 
 Iain
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 To unsubscribe, go to 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Hi

It’s a pretty small difference. The normal “tuning” (mag field) adjustments may 
be a bigger deal. A whole lot depends on the tube design. I *think* they are a 
measure of the transit time in the tube. It’s been about 30 years since I dug 
into that, so I could easily be a bit confused there ….

Bob

 On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:15 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Bob
 Thanks but can you actually see that on the frequency out at 5 Mhz.
 If on the wrong transition or peak shouldn't that translate into an offset
 also.
 
 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
 can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).
 
 Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of
 the others and your ADEV degrades.
 
 Transition wise … not a good idea at all.
 
 Bob
 
 On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
 want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] PRS-45 Cs Standard


Didier,

Happy to contribute.
The protocols of the 4065C comes from the 5085 cesium core which sits in 
a varity of vendors wrapping-boxes.


Simple protocols like that should be useful for analog cesiums and 
rubidiums, and I have toyed with the idea of a small board that senses 
voltages and output them in that format. Would help with logging and 
failure analysis.


Cheers,
Magnus


On 12/06/2014 04:00 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

Thanks Magnus, and apologies to all for the not-so-smooth conversion to
the new site. I still have a few random bugs that I am trying to squash and
I appreciate your patience...

On the other hand, performance of the new server seems to be good.

Didier KO4BB

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

wrote:



FTS4065C revision J manual uploaded.

I knew the login and password where some fake values, but I just could
not locate it and didnt' have them cached.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 12/06/2014 01:56 PM, Didier Juges wrote:


Magnus and all,

Thanks for the heads up, the Upload Instruction link has been fixed.

The short of it:
click on the Upload File button, use manuals for both login and
password, enter your email and any message for me (optional), select your
file, fill the info the fields about the document as suggested and click
Upload.

Didier KO4BB


On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org


wrote:



  Charles,


On 12/06/2014 02:30 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:



   Do open up and take a look. Do take photos. Do share. :)


Bet the bottom plate is a good start.

Cheers,
Magnus



Perhaps you can also post the manual to Didier's site (ko4bb.com) so we
can all follow along?



1) It's the standard FTS4065 manual.
2) It was quicker to email it than locate the link.
3) The upload instruction is unreadable, so I can't upload to Didier's
site.

Cheers,
Magnus

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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?


Bob,

On 12/06/2014 04:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi


On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?



New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern one re-tubed 
with a high performance tube is  $32K.

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes you see 
are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any Cs) is just how 
many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically move Cs from one end 
of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One you have exhausted 
the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also coated all over the inside 
with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very important, the drop in Cs 
at end of life and crud on the inside leads to degradation in the performance 
towards the end of the tube life. Even if the tube works, it may (or may not) 
be useful in a given application.

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their performance 
rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way cheaper, and they 
don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high performance tube in it, 
a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance. I’ve replaced two tubes in one 
of those, so they are correct when they talk about the projected life of the 
tube.

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going to do it 
“right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does require you to do 
all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may not be an issue on the 
surplus market ….


Well, there is one use-case for a cesium, which is the validation of GPS 
receivers. Rubidiums do help to some degree. Comparing two GPS clocks 
with their highly systematic sources, so you can't get useful 
differences that way for the stability of the produced signal.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


Hi Paul and Bob

On 12/06/2014 04:04 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you can 
also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of the 
others and your ADEV degrades.

Transition wise … not a good idea at all.


It's worse than that. Of the 7 peaks, the middle one has significantly 
least sensitivity to the C-field, as well as having the strongest response.


The new digital cesiums actually measures the near-by peaks to sense 
the C-field and servo the C-field and then use the center peak for servo 
the frequency. This is a key to increase the stability of frequency and 
reduce a systematic effect.


Cheers,
Magnus


Bob


On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you want
to select the highest central peak.
However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
be off?
I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
easy to get on to the wrong peak.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Bob
Thanks.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Hi

 It’s a pretty small difference. The normal “tuning” (mag field)
 adjustments may be a bigger deal. A whole lot depends on the tube design. I
 *think* they are a measure of the transit time in the tube. It’s been about
 30 years since I dug into that, so I could easily be a bit confused there ….

 Bob

  On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:15 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Bob
  Thanks but can you actually see that on the frequency out at 5 Mhz.
  If on the wrong transition or peak shouldn't that translate into an
 offset
  also.
 
  On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
  Hi
 
  Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
  can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).
 
  Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one
 of
  the others and your ADEV degrades.
 
  Transition wise … not a good idea at all.
 
  Bob
 
  On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
  Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
  Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
  want
  to select the highest central peak.
  However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output
 frequency
  be off?
  I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its
 pretty
  easy to get on to the wrong peak.
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

Hi
On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:

Bob,

On 12/06/2014 04:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?

New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern one
re-tubed with a high performance tube is $32K.

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes you
see are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any Cs) is
just how many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically move Cs
from one end of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One you
have exhausted the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also coated all
over the inside with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very
important, the drop in Cs at end of life and crud on the inside leads to
degradation in the performance towards the end of the tube life. Even if the
tube works, it may (or may not) be useful in a given application.

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their performance
rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way cheaper, and
they don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high performance
tube in it, a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance. I’ve replaced
two tubes in one of those, so they are correct when they talk about the
projected life of the tube.

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going to do
it “right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does require you
to do all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may not be an issue on
the surplus market ….

Well, there is one use-case for a cesium, which is the validation of GPS
receivers. Rubidiums do help to some degree. Comparing two GPS clocks with
their highly systematic sources, so you can't get useful differences that way
for the stability of the produced signal.

Unless you are making a GPS receiver from scratch (which you might be), there
is a certain “trust factor” that comes into using a GPS for timing. Since you
can’t play with the firmware, you trust that the guy who wrote it did a good
job.

In making a GPSDO, yes on a commercial basis verification against primary
standards is likely to be required by this or that customer. In a basement lab,
I’m not so sure that’s true. Simply comparing things against an ensemble of
“known good” designs (and cross checking the results) should be good enough. If
your design passes the performance of the ensemble, building several of your
design is likely to be cheaper than keeping a Cs running long term. That’s even
more true if you need a fully functional 5071A to do the comparison. Let’s see
.. new BMW or rebuild the 5071 … hmmm :)

Bob

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Magnus
Great but I am looking for very specific detail. If you pick a wrong peak
especially if you can't see peaks on a very weak tube then I think that
translates into an actual offset.
If thats a true statement. Given the modern GPS boxes we have today that
are stable. Wouldn't you see that as a always constant drift. Say 7-10ns
over 20 minutes?
If you restart the system it magically comes back to the same offset.
Also there is a second harmonic reading and control. If you very the fine
phase on the 5 MHz indeed the ctl voltage readout adjusts and the system is
locked. Green light.
Here is the real issue the tube has always been so weak that you simply
can't look at the i meter and see humps. What I had done a long time ago
was add in another meter that was very sensitive and then use a magnifying
glass to see the peaks.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 Hi Paul and Bob

 On 12/06/2014 04:04 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

 Hi

 Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
 can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

 Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of
 the others and your ADEV degrades.

 Transition wise … not a good idea at all.


 It's worse than that. Of the 7 peaks, the middle one has significantly
 least sensitivity to the C-field, as well as having the strongest response.

 The new digital cesiums actually measures the near-by peaks to sense the
 C-field and servo the C-field and then use the center peak for servo the
 frequency. This is a key to increase the stability of frequency and reduce
 a systematic effect.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


  Bob

  On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
 want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


Paul,

On 12/06/2014 04:51 PM, paul swed wrote:

Magnus
Great but I am looking for very specific detail. If you pick a wrong peak
especially if you can't see peaks on a very weak tube then I think that
translates into an actual offset.


Yes, there will be a significant offset unless you adjust your 
synthesizer frequency accordingly, which few clocks allow you to do.


Then, if you have a weak tube, then the center pidestal is the most 
likely to lock onto.



If thats a true statement. Given the modern GPS boxes we have today that
are stable. Wouldn't you see that as a always constant drift. Say 7-10ns
over 20 minutes?


It would be significant yes, and it depends on the C-field, but in 
general, the C-field is so strong as it separates of the -3, -2, -1, +1, 
+2 and +3 peaks from the central 0 peak so that it can be observed 
without interference. The C-field will offset the 0 peak un a much lower 
degree than it offsets the closer -1 and +1 peaks (which is also 
weaker). The nominal C-field setting is reflected in the synthesizer 
offset and balances out. That way most cesiums isn't really as primary 
as being advertized.



If you restart the system it magically comes back to the same offset.
Also there is a second harmonic reading and control. If you very the fine
phase on the 5 MHz indeed the ctl voltage readout adjusts and the system is
locked. Green light.


It is actually the strength of the 1st harmonic which is interesting, 
since if you have strong 2nd degree with almost zero 1st degree, then 
you are pretty much on the mark (i.e. lock).



Here is the real issue the tube has always been so weak that you simply
can't look at the i meter and see humps. What I had done a long time ago
was add in another meter that was very sensitive and then use a magnifying
glass to see the peaks.


I wired up a network analyzer with a mixer to re-modulate the response 
onto the 12.6 MHz signal. Worked like a charm, but slow scanning rate is 
recommended. I think I did some photos of that.


Anyway, on a weak tube, you are most likely to lock to the 0 pedistal, 
because it is the strongest of all 7. If you have a GPSDO you can 
pre-tune your OCXO to help locking.


Cheers,
Magnus



Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


Hi Paul and Bob

On 12/06/2014 04:04 PM, Bob Camp wrote:


Hi

Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one of
the others and your ADEV degrades.

Transition wise … not a good idea at all.



It's worse than that. Of the 7 peaks, the middle one has significantly
least sensitivity to the C-field, as well as having the strongest response.

The new digital cesiums actually measures the near-by peaks to sense the
C-field and servo the C-field and then use the center peak for servo the
frequency. This is a key to increase the stability of frequency and reduce
a systematic effect.

Cheers,
Magnus


  Bob


  On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:


I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
want
to select the highest central peak.
However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
be off?
I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
easy to get on to the wrong peak.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Yes indeed I used the GPSDO to do exactly that.
When I play with the synthesizer things go all over the place.
As someone pointed out a long time ago, the synthesizer doesn't behave as
you may think. Logically I had believed that a LSD of 1 change would be
some simple shift. But it seems that was wrong.
What I am looking at may be a drift thats far smaller the 1 LSD. I can't
really tell.
Regards

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 Paul,

 On 12/06/2014 04:51 PM, paul swed wrote:

 Magnus
 Great but I am looking for very specific detail. If you pick a wrong peak
 especially if you can't see peaks on a very weak tube then I think that
 translates into an actual offset.


 Yes, there will be a significant offset unless you adjust your synthesizer
 frequency accordingly, which few clocks allow you to do.

 Then, if you have a weak tube, then the center pidestal is the most likely
 to lock onto.

  If thats a true statement. Given the modern GPS boxes we have today that
 are stable. Wouldn't you see that as a always constant drift. Say 7-10ns
 over 20 minutes?


 It would be significant yes, and it depends on the C-field, but in
 general, the C-field is so strong as it separates of the -3, -2, -1, +1, +2
 and +3 peaks from the central 0 peak so that it can be observed without
 interference. The C-field will offset the 0 peak un a much lower degree
 than it offsets the closer -1 and +1 peaks (which is also weaker). The
 nominal C-field setting is reflected in the synthesizer offset and balances
 out. That way most cesiums isn't really as primary as being advertized.

  If you restart the system it magically comes back to the same offset.
 Also there is a second harmonic reading and control. If you very the fine
 phase on the 5 MHz indeed the ctl voltage readout adjusts and the system
 is
 locked. Green light.


 It is actually the strength of the 1st harmonic which is interesting,
 since if you have strong 2nd degree with almost zero 1st degree, then you
 are pretty much on the mark (i.e. lock).

  Here is the real issue the tube has always been so weak that you simply
 can't look at the i meter and see humps. What I had done a long time ago
 was add in another meter that was very sensitive and then use a magnifying
 glass to see the peaks.


 I wired up a network analyzer with a mixer to re-modulate the response
 onto the 12.6 MHz signal. Worked like a charm, but slow scanning rate is
 recommended. I think I did some photos of that.

 Anyway, on a weak tube, you are most likely to lock to the 0 pedistal,
 because it is the strongest of all 7. If you have a GPSDO you can pre-tune
 your OCXO to help locking.

 Cheers,
 Magnus



 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

  Hi Paul and Bob

 On 12/06/2014 04:04 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

  Hi

 Sure you can set them on the wrong peak. If you really get confused, you
 can also set them on the wrong transition … (gulp).

 Peak wise, the one you want is the highest Q / best SNR. Set it to one
 of
 the others and your ADEV degrades.

 Transition wise … not a good idea at all.


 It's worse than that. Of the 7 peaks, the middle one has significantly
 least sensitivity to the C-field, as well as having the strongest
 response.

 The new digital cesiums actually measures the near-by peaks to sense
 the
 C-field and servo the C-field and then use the center peak for servo the
 frequency. This is a key to increase the stability of frequency and
 reduce
 a systematic effect.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


   Bob


   On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:11 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:


 I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
 want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output
 frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its
 pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Bert Kehren via time-nuts

I am looking forward to long term data on the Lucent unit. GPSDO's are
getting closer and closer to Cesium. Having worked for 18 month on two GPSDO
projects we find that the limiting factors are the Cesium Standards. Working
presently on a Cesium GPSDO. Short term OCXO, medium Rb and long term
Cesium. With Cesium may be able to use 14 day filter. Will find out. If we do
not see an improvement we will most likely retire our Cesium units.
Bert Kehren

In a message dated 12/6/2014 10:46:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi
On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

Bob,

On 12/06/2014 04:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?

New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern one
re-tubed with a high performance tube is $32K.

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes
you see are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any Cs)
is just how many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically move
Cs from one end of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One
you have exhausted the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also coated
all over the inside with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very
important, the drop in Cs at end of life and crud on the inside leads to
degradation in the performance towards the end of the tube life. Even if the
tube works, it may (or may not) be useful in a given application.

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their
performance rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way
cheaper,
and they don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high
performance tube in it, a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance. I’ve
replaced two tubes in one of those, so they are correct when they talk about
the
projected life of the tube.

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going
to do it “right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does
require you to do all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may not be an
issue on the surplus market ….

Unless you are making a GPS receiver from scratch (which you might be),
there is a certain “trust factor” that comes into using a GPS for timing.
Since you can’t play with the firmware, you trust that the guy who wrote it
did a good job.

In making a GPSDO, yes on a commercial basis verification against primary
standards is likely to be required by this or that customer. In a basement
lab, I’m not so sure that’s true. Simply comparing things against an
ensemble of “known good” designs (and cross checking the results) should be
good enough. If your design passes the performance of the ensemble, building
several of your design is likely to be cheaper than keeping a Cs running long
term. That’s even more true if you need a fully functional 5071A to do the
comparison. Let’s see .. new BMW or rebuild the 5071 … hmmm :)

Bob

Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] OT - For those without enough watches

2014-12-06 Thread Alan Hochhalter

I saw this watch
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hddwatches-the-geek-watch-made-out-from-a-hdd
on Indegogo.  You may be able to get one in time for a Christmas gift. Here
http://www.citizen.co.jp/miyota_mvt/download/pdf/spec_GL20_GL15_GM15_GN15.pdf
are
the specs for the movement itself.  Accuracy is only +/- 20 seconds per
month though, so perhaps not good enough for time nuts.

Alan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Tom Van Baak

Paul,

There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're talking 
about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either side, about 
1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic field, which is 
specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/

You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)

For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm

/tvb


- Original Message - 
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
___
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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

If you toss a Rb into the GPSDO “mix” things can get quite good. The Rb
*should* be better than an OCXO in the 1,000 second range. It’s crossover
with the GPS ADEV will be further out than the OCXO’s. The gotcha with both the
OCXO and Rb is their temperature dependance. Some / many / all of the lower
cost Rb’s are not much better than a good double oven OCXO in terms of raw
temperature performance. The approach they use to “correct” this does not help
their ADEV at all. Yes, you can disable the correction and put the whole thing
in a temperature controlled environment.

Lots of details to take care of. If you get them all right, you’ll beat any /
all of the older Cs standards. That *assumes* that GPS is not deliberately
lying to you :) … (off to the Conspiracy Time Nuts mailing list). One very cute
addition would be to pull down the NIST GPS data and use it to correct your
system on an hourly / daily basis. If you do that with common view satellites,
you most certainly will beat a surplus grade Cs standard.

Bob

On Dec 6, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
wrote:

I am looking forward to long term data on the Lucent unit. GPSDO's are
getting closer and closer to Cesium. Having worked for 18 month on two GPSDO
projects we find that the limiting factors are the Cesium Standards. Working
presently on a Cesium GPSDO. Short term OCXO, medium Rb and long term
Cesium. With Cesium may be able to use 14 day filter. Will find out. If we
do
not see an improvement we will most likely retire our Cesium units.
Bert Kehren

In a message dated 12/6/2014 10:46:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi
On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

Bob,

On 12/06/2014 04:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?

New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern one
re-tubed with a high performance tube is $32K.

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes
you see are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any Cs)
is just how many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically move
Cs from one end of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One
you have exhausted the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also coated
all over the inside with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very
important, the drop in Cs at end of life and crud on the inside leads to
degradation in the performance towards the end of the tube life. Even if the
tube works, it may (or may not) be useful in a given application.

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their
performance rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way
cheaper,
and they don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high
performance tube in it, a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance. I’ve
replaced two tubes in one of those, so they are correct when they talk about
the
projected life of the tube.

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going
to do it “right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does
require you to do all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may not be
an
issue on the surplus market ….

Unless you are making a GPS receiver from scratch (which you might be),
there is a certain “trust factor” that comes into using a GPS for timing.
Since you can’t play with the firmware, you trust that the guy who wrote it
did a good job.

In making a GPSDO, yes on a commercial basis verification against primary
standards is likely to be required by this or that customer. In a basement
lab, I’m not so sure that’s true. Simply comparing things against an
ensemble of “known good” designs (and cross checking the results) should be
good enough. If your design passes the performance of the ensemble, building
several of your design is likely to be cheaper than keeping a Cs running long
term. That’s even more true if you need a fully functional 5071A to do the
comparison. Let’s see .. new BMW or rebuild the 5071 … hmmm :)

Bob

Cheers,
Magnus

Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

Well a bad tube is a bad tube and thats been my story. Though for $125 how
can I complain. But for $999 plus $79 shipping no interest at all.
When the tubes used up its used up. Generally.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

If you toss a Rb into the GPSDO “mix” things can get quite good. The Rb
*should* be better than an OCXO in the 1,000 second range. It’s crossover
with the GPS ADEV will be further out than the OCXO’s. The gotcha with both
the OCXO and Rb is their temperature dependance. Some / many / all of the
lower cost Rb’s are not much better than a good double oven OCXO in terms
of raw temperature performance. The approach they use to “correct” this
does not help their ADEV at all. Yes, you can disable the correction and
put the whole thing in a temperature controlled environment.

Lots of details to take care of. If you get them all right, you’ll beat
any / all of the older Cs standards. That *assumes* that GPS is not
deliberately lying to you :) … (off to the Conspiracy Time Nuts mailing
list). One very cute addition would be to pull down the NIST GPS data and
use it to correct your system on an hourly / daily basis. If you do that
with common view satellites, you most certainly will beat a surplus grade
Cs standard.

Bob

On Dec 6, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:

I am looking forward to long term data on the Lucent unit. GPSDO's are
getting closer and closer to Cesium. Having worked for 18 month on two
GPSDO
projects we find that the limiting factors are the Cesium Standards.
Working
presently on a Cesium GPSDO. Short term OCXO, medium Rb and long term
Cesium. With Cesium may be able to use 14 day filter. Will find out. If
we do
not see an improvement we will most likely retire our Cesium units.
Bert Kehren

In a message dated 12/6/2014 10:46:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi
On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

Bob,

On 12/06/2014 04:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

I see this cesium reference on eBay, where apparently someone
returned
it due to the fact it had a bad tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-FOR-PARTS-REPAIR-/141483787108

I'm wondering if it was someone on this list. It is likely to be
practical to replace the tube?

New tubes for Cs standards are in the $20K range. Getting a modern
one
re-tubed with a high performance tube is $32K.

The stock of “new old stock” tubes is long gone. About the only tubes
you see are pulls from used gear. The question with them (as with any
Cs)
is just how many years (or months) is left on the tube. You physically
move
Cs from one end of the tube to the other when you operate the device. One
you have exhausted the pre-loaded stock, the tube is dead. It’s also
coated
all over the inside with surplus Cs. Since signal to noise ratio is very
important, the drop in Cs at end of life and crud on the inside leads to
degradation in the performance towards the end of the tube life. Even if
the
tube works, it may (or may not) be useful in a given application.

For many applications, GPSDO’s are the more useful device. Their
performance rivals that of most of the older Cs standards. They are way
cheaper,
and they don’t wear out. Indeed, if you have a 5071A with a high
performance tube in it, a GPSDO is not going to match it’s performance.
I’ve
replaced two tubes in one of those, so they are correct when they talk
about the
projected life of the tube.

The other subtle issue with Cs standards is shipping. If you are going
to do it “right” it’s a major pain. Sending one back for re-tube does
require you to do all the formal shipping nuttiness. That may or may
not be an
issue on the surplus market ….

Well, there is one use-case for a cesium, which is the validation of
GPS
receivers. Rubidiums do help to some degree. Comparing two GPS clocks
with
their highly systematic sources, so you can't get useful differences
that
way for the stability of the produced signal.

Unless you are making a GPS receiver from scratch (which you might be),
there is a certain “trust factor” that comes into using a GPS for
timing.
Since you can’t play with the firmware, you trust that the guy who
wrote it
did a good job.

Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

On 6 Dec 2014 17:58, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well a bad tube is a bad tube and thats been my story. Though for $125 how
 can I complain. But for $999 plus $79 shipping no interest at all.
 When the tubes used up its used up. Generally.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

I have never looked a tube, but what (if anything) stops them being
rebuilt? I guess someone has tried it.

They want almost $1000 to ship to me, although I suspect that they would
recalculate and get a more realistic price.

It sounds like it is not worth bothering with.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Tom Van Baak

 Now if the device was on one of those side peaks what would that make the 
 offset at 5 MHz be?.
 I think something like 1 Khz divided by 9192631770. I am sure 5 MHz comes 
 into the calculation.
 Pretty small. But may guess thats what I see. Its 44ns slow over 27 minutes 
 as of yesterday.
 The systems been on 4 days.

Paul,

40 kHz / 9192 MHz is 4e-6, so you're obviously not locked to one of the 6 wrong 
peaks.

1 kHz / 9192 MHz is 1e-7, or 100 ns per second, so I don't think you're locked 
to one of the 2 side peaks either. A 1e-7 error translates to 0.5 Hz out of 5 
MHz.

44 ns / 27 minutes time drift = 2.7e-11 frequency offset. Maybe all you need to 
do is adjust the C-field dial. As a quick test measure the 5061A output 
frequency at min C-field and max C-field to get an idea of your tuning range. 
HP used two different ranges on the 5061A. Or measure at each turn of the dial, 
as I did here:
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/hp-5065a-cfield/

If you want, perform the Zeeman calibration as described in the 5061A manual. 
It says an error of 1% in the Zeeman frequency causes an error of 3.6 parts in 
10^12 in the 5 MHz output. 

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


Paul,

There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're talking 
about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either side, about 
1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic field, which is 
specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/

You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)

For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm

/tvb


- Original Message - 
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 6:11 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
 Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
 Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you want
 to select the highest central peak.
 However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
 be off?
 I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
 easy to get on to the wrong peak.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL


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[time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Gregory Maxwell

Bob Camp wrote:
 Unless you are making a GPS receiver from scratch (which you might be), there 
 is a certain “trust factor” that comes into using a GPS for timing. Since you 
 can’t play with the firmware, you trust that the guy who wrote it did a good 
 job.

As compared to internet facing software embedded systems seem to be
unusually fragile, consider this paper on GPS receivers with
adversarial signals:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/tnighswa/GPS_CCS.pdf

And the trust with using GPS goes beyond the quality of the
construction of the receiver:  You're trusting the the GPS
constellation is working and correct (see the recent GLONASS failure)
and you're trusting that there aren't random jammers going by, you're
trusting that there isn't someone in physical proximity manipulating
the signal intentionally (see the paper above), or even just random
truckers going by with jammers (there have been past threads on
time-nuts) about this.  IIRC the stated US policy with respect to GPS
signal integrity is that it may be intentionally degraded (and can be
degraded in a geographically targeted manner) for e.g.
political/military objectives, so you trust that you won't be the
target or collateral damage of any such degradation or that it won't
be severe enough to effect you.

GPS driven timing works amazing well under most conditions most of the
time and at a very low cost. The trade-off is that you're taking more
fringe risk and greater trust. I sometimes worry that we're building
too much public infrastructure which is depends on a single system (or
on space based timing in general, since Kessler syndrome, while
unlikely, is a risk that exists) now that loran is gone in the US. Of
course, the attractiveness of GPS makes this self-fulfilling: Solid,
long living, CS primary frequency sources would probably be much less
expensive of GPS didn't cover so much of the commercial demand for
them.  There are newer receivers (e.g. ublox m8) that are concurrent
mult-gnss which might help, or maybe not: who knows what the receiver
will do if one system starts emitting crap?  I am not especially
confident that the software in these systems is well baked under
exceptional conditions.

If you're working on things with no availability requirements, no
real-time requirements (e.g. able to go download after-the-fact GPS
reliability and precise ephemeris from NGS), and aren't doing anything
where your timing is likely to be intentionally attacked, say for
test-lab purposes... then these issues may be less of a consideration.

In the context of time-nuts though many people are interested in the
art and science of precise time/frequency for pretty much its own
sake... and the driving need for the lowest phase noise or best adev
at some window might just be because it's possible.  In that light,
the extremes of autonomy, reliability, avoidance of systemic risk, and
surviving attacks are also interesting parameters that I find to be
interesting to explore, and they're ones which perhaps have inadequate
commercial attention on them these days since it seems people are
often (a little too) willing to trust and then point fingers when
things fail.

[Or at least this is an area I personally find interesting ... I wrote
this back in 2011 not so long after I started reading time-nuts:
https://people.xiph.org/~greg/decentralized-time.txt  before I knew
common-view time-transfer was already a thing, and when I knew a
little less nothing than the nothing I know now about time/frequency
standards.]

In terms of the 5061A  at least some of the old surplus units floating
around out there are non-working for silly reasons,  e.g. left
sitting for a long time, and they'll actually lock up fine if left
with the ion pump running for a few days, or the OCXO put back on
frequency, or the gain adjusted though I wouldn't spend $1k just
to find out. I picked up a 5061B for basically shipping costs a while
back and it was up and running reliably after some minor repairs...
though the beam current is low and it likely doesn't have much life
left in the tube. It's hard to deny how interesting and finely built
these devices are, objects of techno-lust in their own right, even in
surplus-and-maybe-not-reliable and impossibly-expensive-to-refurbish
condition.

As an actual lab tool-- rather than a science project, sadly, I do
have to agree that you're better off with a GPSDO than a surplus CS
unless you happen to get really lucky in the surplus gear lottery. Of
course, none of this is mutually exclusive. It's possible and
reasonable to have both.
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Bert Kehren via time-nuts

Be careful you are touching on two subjects that can turn in to long  
lasting discussions. Legal shipping will be very expensive and rebuilding tubes 
 
has been looked at in the past but short of a sophisticated lab in Russia I  
doubt it could be done, the real issue who would buy one people that need 
Cesium  will pay the price for a new one and time nuts would not spend the 
money for a  working rebuild tube. Where is the market?
 
 
In a message dated 12/6/2014 1:07:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes:

On 6 Dec 2014  17:58, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well a  bad tube is a bad tube and thats been my story. Though for $125 
how
  can I complain. But for $999 plus $79 shipping no interest at all.
  When the tubes used up its used up. Generally.
 Regards
  Paul
 WB8TSL

I have never looked a tube, but what (if anything)  stops them being
rebuilt? I guess someone has tried it.

They want  almost $1000 to ship to me, although I suspect that they would
recalculate  and get a more realistic price.

It sounds like it is not worth  bothering  with.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

On 6 Dec 2014 18:33, Bert Kehren via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
 be done, the real issue who would buy one people that need
 Cesium  will pay the price for a new one and time nuts would not spend the
 money for a  working rebuild tube. Where is the market?

There's a professional market for thermionic tubes above 10 kW or so.
Commercial companies will buy rebuilt tubes. Why should it be any different
with a Cs tube?

I just searched some of my old emails on time-nuts, and can see it is felt
to be impractical to rebuild a tube.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

OK Tom
Some things for me to look at.
The Zeeman freq method never worked for me. I tried high and low drive and
several generators that are very accurate.
But will take a look.
Thanks

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote:

  Now if the device was on one of those side peaks what would that make
 the offset at 5 MHz be?.
  I think something like 1 Khz divided by 9192631770. I am sure 5 MHz
 comes into the calculation.
  Pretty small. But may guess thats what I see. Its 44ns slow over 27
 minutes as of yesterday.
  The systems been on 4 days.

 Paul,

 40 kHz / 9192 MHz is 4e-6, so you're obviously not locked to one of the 6
 wrong peaks.

 1 kHz / 9192 MHz is 1e-7, or 100 ns per second, so I don't think you're
 locked to one of the 2 side peaks either. A 1e-7 error translates to 0.5 Hz
 out of 5 MHz.

 44 ns / 27 minutes time drift = 2.7e-11 frequency offset. Maybe all you
 need to do is adjust the C-field dial. As a quick test measure the 5061A
 output frequency at min C-field and max C-field to get an idea of your
 tuning range. HP used two different ranges on the 5061A. Or measure at each
 turn of the dial, as I did here:
 http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/hp-5065a-cfield/

 If you want, perform the Zeeman calibration as described in the 5061A
 manual. It says an error of 1% in the Zeeman frequency causes an error of
 3.6 parts in 10^12 in the 5 MHz output.

 /tvb

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 9:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


 Paul,

 There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
 talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either
 side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
 field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

 For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/

 You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
 http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)

 For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
 https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

 A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
 http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm

 /tvb


 - Original Message -
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 To: Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 6:11 AM
 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


 I have a curious question that really applies to all Cs references.
  Its possible to set them on to the wrong peak.
  Typically in the literature it will speak to at least 3 peaks and you
 want
  to select the highest central peak.
  However if you select the wrong peak, how much would the output frequency
  be off?
  I had read a tech note for the airforce that seems to indicate its pretty
  easy to get on to the wrong peak.
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


Tom,

On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Paul,

There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're talking 
about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either side, about 
1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic field, which is 
specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/


These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay 
fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too 
have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite 
significant, but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they 
are much denser and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay 
more details of which fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes 
is due to the observation time, which has been one of the driving forces 
to develop hydrogen masers and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium 
tube, it's a few dm of distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.



You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)


Which is a good illustration. It would be good.


For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm


Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary 
information.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current, about
.5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
Regards
Paul.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 Tom,

 On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

 Paul,

 There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
 talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either
 side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
 field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

 For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/


 These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
 fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
 have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite significant,
 but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much denser
 and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of which
 fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the observation
 time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
 and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
 distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

  You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
 http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)


 Which is a good illustration. It would be good.

  For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
 https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

 A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
 http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm


 Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
 information.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

On 6 December 2014 at 17:58, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Well a bad tube is a bad tube and thats been my story. Though for $125 how
 can I complain. But for $999 plus $79 shipping no interest at all.
 When the tubes used up its used up. Generally.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

I just offered them $250 for it. From what I gather, it is going to be
unfixable, but will be a bit of fun poking around inside. But I'm not
paying $1000 either.

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

It's a challenge indeed. IF you are running on fumes, it will be harder 
for the automatic locking to find first and second modulations, and if 
it does this, it is much more likely to be the central pedestal as the 
others will be even further down into the noise. The lack of the 
fundamental tone will cause that FLL may fail to lock, since the sweep 
signal can be too strongs, and if it does lock, it will be weak as the 
loop gain will be off by the lack of signal and then naturally the S/N 
will be problematic.


Not sure that it in itself will be the cause of systematically drifting 
of the mark, but rather varying a lot around that mark.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 08:16 PM, paul swed wrote:

All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current, about
.5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
Regards
Paul.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

wrote:



Tom,

On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:


Paul,

There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on either
side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/



These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite significant,
but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much denser
and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of which
fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the observation
time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

  You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:

http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)



Which is a good illustration. It would be good.

  For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm



Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
information.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

David
I picked my unit up for $125 at a Hamfesyt and the tube was absolutely bad
as it turned out. But then what do you expect for the $. That said another
time nut gave me his dead tube from a 5060. I spent a good deal of time
getting it adapted into the 5061 now name Frankenstein. This included a new
oven controller.
But it was all about learning and boy did I. Still nothing like some of the
folks on Time nuts truly they have the expertise and feel for the beasts.

But the fumes were enough for me to get an actual feel for a CS reference
and why they were always left on. Also it drove home a lot of the physics
and math.
Now for $125, thats a pretty good education.
Good luck and may the CS fumes be with you.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL/1




On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 On 6 December 2014 at 17:58, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
  Well a bad tube is a bad tube and thats been my story. Though for $125
 how
  can I complain. But for $999 plus $79 shipping no interest at all.
  When the tubes used up its used up. Generally.
  Regards
  Paul
  WB8TSL

 I just offered them $250 for it. From what I gather, it is going to be
 unfixable, but will be a bit of fun poking around inside. But I'm not
 paying $1000 either.

 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

The system does consistently come to lock with a constant offset. So its
finding something. Just the odd little offset thats bugging me.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 It's a challenge indeed. IF you are running on fumes, it will be harder
 for the automatic locking to find first and second modulations, and if it
 does this, it is much more likely to be the central pedestal as the others
 will be even further down into the noise. The lack of the fundamental tone
 will cause that FLL may fail to lock, since the sweep signal can be too
 strongs, and if it does lock, it will be weak as the loop gain will be off
 by the lack of signal and then naturally the S/N will be problematic.

 Not sure that it in itself will be the cause of systematically drifting of
 the mark, but rather varying a lot around that mark.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 On 12/06/2014 08:16 PM, paul swed wrote:

 All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
 But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current,
 about
 .5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
 Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

 wrote:


  Tom,

 On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

  Paul,

 There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
 talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
 either
 side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
 field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

 For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/


 These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
 fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
 have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
 significant,
 but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
 denser
 and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
 which
 fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
 observation
 time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
 and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
 distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

   You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:

 http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)


 Which is a good illustration. It would be good.

   For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:

 https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

 A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
 http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm


 Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
 information.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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[time-nuts] For those without enough watches

2014-12-06 Thread Ronald Held

With that Miyota GL 20 movement it is not good enough for the HAQ
crowd. Seems all right as a geeky item.
 Ronald
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

On 6 Dec 2014 21:10, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 David
 I picked my unit up for $125 at a Hamfesyt and the tube was absolutely bad
 as it turned out. But then what do you expect for the $. That said another
 time nut gave me his dead tube from a 5060. I spent a good deal of time
 getting it adapted into the 5061 now name Frankenstein. This included a
new
 oven controller.
 But it was all about learning and boy did I. Still nothing like some of
the
 folks on Time nuts truly they have the expertise and feel for the beasts.

 But the fumes were enough for me to get an actual feel for a CS reference
 and why they were always left on. Also it drove home a lot of the physics
 and math.
 Now for $125, thats a pretty good education.

The fumes will do for me!

I got an HP 58503A as I need a solution, not a project.

But playing with a Cs for a bit of fun/education is something quite
different. But maybe I should wait until one comes up in the UK, shipping
is going to be $300-$500.

Due to the size of the UK, there's a lot less test equipment around here
than the US. What we do have here tends to be quite expensive.

Dave
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[time-nuts] Lucent / Z3810A log time offset.

2014-12-06 Thread Paul

I was curious about the six second difference between GPS valid on the two
boxes.  Is that likely just due to (message) processing overhead?
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


Yes, but what's the offset?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/06/2014 10:12 PM, paul swed wrote:

The system does consistently come to lock with a constant offset. So its
finding something. Just the odd little offset thats bugging me.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

wrote:



It's a challenge indeed. IF you are running on fumes, it will be harder
for the automatic locking to find first and second modulations, and if it
does this, it is much more likely to be the central pedestal as the others
will be even further down into the noise. The lack of the fundamental tone
will cause that FLL may fail to lock, since the sweep signal can be too
strongs, and if it does lock, it will be weak as the loop gain will be off
by the lack of signal and then naturally the S/N will be problematic.

Not sure that it in itself will be the cause of systematically drifting of
the mark, but rather varying a lot around that mark.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 12/06/2014 08:16 PM, paul swed wrote:


All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current,
about
.5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
Regards
Paul.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org


wrote:



  Tom,


On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

  Paul,


There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
either
side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/



These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
significant,
but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
denser
and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
which
fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
observation
time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

   You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:


http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)



Which is a good illustration. It would be good.

   For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:


https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm



Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
information.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

Used to be quite a bit available at reasonable costs. But Ebay ended that
ages ago. Even for bad stuff the dollars are very high. Granted some
venders will take back items that do not work such as this one. But not
always.
And yes its not for business at all.
Regards
Paul

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 On 6 Dec 2014 21:10, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  David
  I picked my unit up for $125 at a Hamfesyt and the tube was absolutely
 bad
  as it turned out. But then what do you expect for the $. That said
 another
  time nut gave me his dead tube from a 5060. I spent a good deal of time
  getting it adapted into the 5061 now name Frankenstein. This included a
 new
  oven controller.
  But it was all about learning and boy did I. Still nothing like some of
 the
  folks on Time nuts truly they have the expertise and feel for the beasts.
 
  But the fumes were enough for me to get an actual feel for a CS reference
  and why they were always left on. Also it drove home a lot of the physics
  and math.
  Now for $125, thats a pretty good education.

 The fumes will do for me!

 I got an HP 58503A as I need a solution, not a project.

 But playing with a Cs for a bit of fun/education is something quite
 different. But maybe I should wait until one comes up in the UK, shipping
 is going to be $300-$500.

 Due to the size of the UK, there's a lot less test equipment around here
 than the US. What we do have here tends to be quite expensive.

 Dave
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

Slow by 44 ns in 27 minutes.
-2.7 e-11
Regards
Paul

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 Yes, but what's the offset?

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 On 12/06/2014 10:12 PM, paul swed wrote:

 The system does consistently come to lock with a constant offset. So its
 finding something. Just the odd little offset thats bugging me.

 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

 wrote:


  It's a challenge indeed. IF you are running on fumes, it will be harder
 for the automatic locking to find first and second modulations, and if it
 does this, it is much more likely to be the central pedestal as the
 others
 will be even further down into the noise. The lack of the fundamental
 tone
 will cause that FLL may fail to lock, since the sweep signal can be too
 strongs, and if it does lock, it will be weak as the loop gain will be
 off
 by the lack of signal and then naturally the S/N will be problematic.

 Not sure that it in itself will be the cause of systematically drifting
 of
 the mark, but rather varying a lot around that mark.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 On 12/06/2014 08:16 PM, paul swed wrote:

  All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the
 meter.
 But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current,
 about
 .5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
 Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

  wrote:


   Tom,


 On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

   Paul,


 There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
 talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
 either
 side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
 field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

 For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/


  These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the
 Ramsay
 fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
 have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
 significant,
 but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
 denser
 and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
 which
 fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
 observation
 time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen
 masers
 and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
 distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:

  http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)


  Which is a good illustration. It would be good.

For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For
 example:

  https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html

 A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
 http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm


  Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
 information.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

 ___
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 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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[time-nuts] TIC users

2014-12-06 Thread Don Latham

Ran across this in my 'net travels:
http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/analog/sensors-and-sensor-interface/MAX35103.html
American supplier, 20 ps accuracy claimed time interval to digital.
Don



-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question


C-field adjustment is what you should be doing then.

Cheers,
Magnuns

On 12/07/2014 12:24 AM, paul swed wrote:

Slow by 44 ns in 27 minutes.
-2.7 e-11
Regards
Paul

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

wrote:



Yes, but what's the offset?

Cheers,
Magnus


On 12/06/2014 10:12 PM, paul swed wrote:


The system does consistently come to lock with a constant offset. So its
finding something. Just the odd little offset thats bugging me.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org


wrote:



  It's a challenge indeed. IF you are running on fumes, it will be harder

for the automatic locking to find first and second modulations, and if it
does this, it is much more likely to be the central pedestal as the
others
will be even further down into the noise. The lack of the fundamental
tone
will cause that FLL may fail to lock, since the sweep signal can be too
strongs, and if it does lock, it will be weak as the loop gain will be
off
by the lack of signal and then naturally the S/N will be problematic.

Not sure that it in itself will be the cause of systematically drifting
of
the mark, but rather varying a lot around that mark.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 12/06/2014 08:16 PM, paul swed wrote:

  All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the

meter.
But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current,
about
.5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
Regards
Paul.

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

  wrote:




   Tom,



On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

   Paul,



There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
either
side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
field, which is specific to each beam tube design.

For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/


  These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the

Ramsay
fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
significant,
but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
denser
and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
which
fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
observation
time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen
masers
and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.

You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:

  http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)



  Which is a good illustration. It would be good.


For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For
example:

  https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html


A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm


  Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary

information.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Pete Lancashire

Paul and I have tubes that most would consider dead. Mine is not far
behind. I fire it up about 3 to 4 times a year if anything to keep it
pumped down. I can still get the correct peak with the internal meter but
it is getting harder each time.
 On Dec 6, 2014 11:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
 But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current, about
 .5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
 Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
  wrote:

  Tom,
 
  On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
 
  Paul,
 
  There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
  talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
 either
  side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
  field, which is specific to each beam tube design.
 
  For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
  http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/
 
 
  These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
  fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
  have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
 significant,
  but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
 denser
  and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
 which
  fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
 observation
  time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
  and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
  distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.
 
   You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
  http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)
 
 
  Which is a good illustration. It would be good.
 
   For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
  https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html
 
  A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
  http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm
 
 
  Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
  information.
 
  Cheers,
  Magnus
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
  mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Did a member of time-nuts buy this?

2014-12-06 Thread Pete Lancashire

$300 of which $50 was shipping. 14 day return but I pay the shipping. So
figured would only be out the $50.  Seller said would be  fipped in a
double wall box. So shipping shock was much less of a concern.

Also not for work.
On Dec 6, 2014 1:52 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:

 On 6 Dec 2014 21:10, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  David
  I picked my unit up for $125 at a Hamfesyt and the tube was absolutely
 bad
  as it turned out. But then what do you expect for the $. That said
 another
  time nut gave me his dead tube from a 5060. I spent a good deal of time
  getting it adapted into the 5061 now name Frankenstein. This included a
 new
  oven controller.
  But it was all about learning and boy did I. Still nothing like some of
 the
  folks on Time nuts truly they have the expertise and feel for the beasts.
 
  But the fumes were enough for me to get an actual feel for a CS reference
  and why they were always left on. Also it drove home a lot of the physics
  and math.
  Now for $125, thats a pretty good education.

 The fumes will do for me!

 I got an HP 58503A as I need a solution, not a project.

 But playing with a Cs for a bit of fun/education is something quite
 different. But maybe I should wait until one comes up in the UK, shipping
 is going to be $300-$500.

 Due to the size of the UK, there's a lot less test equipment around here
 than the US. What we do have here tends to be quite expensive.

 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question

2014-12-06 Thread Tom Van Baak (lab)

Pete, Paul,

You can always try increasing the Cs oven temperature. I'm told +10 C will 
double the beam current -- and half the life. But my my, hey hey sometimes it's 
better to burn out than fade away. 

/tvb (i5s)

 On Dec 6, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote:
 
 Paul and I have tubes that most would consider dead. Mine is not far
 behind. I fire it up about 3 to 4 times a year if anything to keep it
 pumped down. I can still get the correct peak with the internal meter but
 it is getting harder each time.
 On Dec 6, 2014 11:16 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 All good answers with a good tube and enough current to read on the meter.
 But I am working at the very limit of the Cs fumes. There is current, about
 .5 to 1 tick mark on the meter of a 5061 using a 5060 tube.
 Thats the challenge on a very eol tube.
 Regards
 Paul.
 
 On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Magnus Danielson 
 mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:
 
 Tom,
 
 On 12/06/2014 06:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
 
 Paul,
 
 There are 7 peaks total, about 40 kHz apart (on my 5061A). If you're
 talking about just the central peak, there are two smaller peaks on
 either
 side, about 1 kHz apart. The exact value depends on internal magnetic
 field, which is specific to each beam tube design.
 
 For some measurements of all the peaks, have a look at:
 http://leapsecond.com/pages/cspeak/
 
 These are the 7 Zeeman pedestals, and on top of them you have the Ramsay
 fringes. You can indeed lock onto the wrong Ramsey-fringe, but they too
 have amplitude differences. For a normal tube, they are quite
 significant,
 but if you look at the Ramsay fringes on the NIST-F1, they are much
 denser
 and looses amplitude much slower, so you need to pay more details of
 which
 fringe you use. The density of the Ramsay fringes is due to the
 observation
 time, which has been one of the driving forces to develop hydrogen masers
 and cesium fountains, but for a simple cesium tube, it's a few dm of
 distance and the average speed of the cesium steam.
 
 You can play with the C-field in addition to playing with peaks:
 http://leapsecond.com/images/cfield.gif  (578 x 4610 pixels)
 
 Which is a good illustration. It would be good.
 
 For more details search the archives for the word Zeeman. For example:
 https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-April/018171.html
 
 A nice description from hp how a cesium beam standard works:
 http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5062c/theory.htm
 
 Do check the FTS-4065C manual as I just uploaded. Good complementary
 information.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
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[time-nuts] FW: Z3810 Correction

2014-12-06 Thread billriches

Correction of post sent about 5 min ago.

 

I had TX- going to pin 7. It should go to Pin 8 of Z3810.

 

Bill Riches

 

 

I finally got my 3810 talking with my windows 7 64 bit pc.

 

1. Ordered a Gearmo GM-485422 USB to RS-485-422 interface converter from
Amazon - 39.95.

 

 
http://www.amazon.com/GearMo%C2%AE-5ft-RS485-RS422-FTDI/dp/B005CPLOVW/ref=sr
_1_8?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/GearMo%C2%AE-5ft-RS485-RS422-FTDI/dp/B005CPLOVW/ref=s
r_1_8?ie=UTF8qid=1417918933sr=8-8keywords=gearmo+usb+rs-232+serial+adapte
r qid=1417918933sr=8-8keywords=gearmo+usb+rs-232+serial+adapter

 

The driver disk that came with this unit does not have 422 drivers on it
-only rs-232 drivers.  I went to gearmo.com and downloaded the correct
drivers and a correct manual.  Installed drivers and it works fine.

 

2. Downloaded and installed Z3811.exe. Opened program and I am getting more
info from the boxes than I will ever need.

 

3. Pin out that worked for me:

 

CONVERTER Z3810

 

TX +4

TX- 8

RX+5

RX- 9

GND   7

 

73,

 

Bill, WA2DVU

Cape May, NJ

 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5061Cs reference question