Re: [time-nuts] Flashback to 1988 (Austron Catalog)
In message cac2_fprrd0hpwbrqbejvwsiuaq8afrmn1be25wtdqnh+pxy...@mail.gmail.com , Dan Watson writes: The serial-numbered original manual was also included. Inside the plastic wrapping was an Austron catalog from 1988, complete with vintage smell! It is very interesting to look through. Attached is a picture of the spread for you Austron fans. Can we persuade you to all that stuff and uploade it to KO4BB or similar ? I'd love to get a chance to read it... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] More BJT gain and frequency curves
On the low noise transistor thread, we got into how BJT transition frequency (f sub tau) and current gain (beta) vary with collector current. I posted graphs of beta vs. Ic for two very common transistors, the 2N3904 and 2N4401 (and their cognates in other packages with other prefixes, MMBT, etc.). Here are two graphs showing beta vs. Ic and Ft vs. Ic for a range of popular transistors (a few of which are obsolete by now). The graphs are from the second edition of The Art of Electronics (not the new, 3rd edition). Once again, note that the current gain curves represent the static (DC) values. As Rick pointed out, the DC value is an upper bound on the AC current gain, which is approximately equal to the DC value up to the transition frequency (Ft) divided by the DC current gain (usually at least 1MHz for small-signal transistors). Above that, it declines at 20dB per decade. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz line data
I've updated the graph at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2014-2015.pn g and added July-2015 at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2015-Jul.png July 19th shifted 15 seconds in one day! The shift is 25 seconds over July 17-19. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Square to sine wave symmetrical conversion (part 2)
Not necessarily. Many oscillator circuits do not deliver a good sine wave to begin with This is very true. However if it is worse than -30dB harmonic sinewave back stream then the oscillator is probably extremely high in phase noise anyway. Since the threshold is off center, the phase noise of the 20% duty cycle squarewave will have additional amounts from the AM noise on the signal adding in from that threshold offset. The reason we want 50% is to get the cleanest signal possible with what we have to work with. :) Jerry N9XR. On Jul 25, 2015 3:17 PM, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote: it is relative easy to make a perfect 50% square wave from almost any input wave form U1 could be any-- fast enough for the desired frequency--comparator or a transistor pair similar to Charles Wenzel's circuit, R1 C1 is a long time integrator,[ RxC 1/f of the incoming frequency] the voltage at A is proportional with the duty cycle, U 2 is some high gain low noise, low input offset voltage high input impedance amplifier, the duty-cycle is set by R4/R5, fine tuning with R6, C2v removes the noise Vr is well stabilized reference voltage, To set up the circuit the output should be connected -- with DC decoupling -- to a spectrum analyzer's input for watching the second harmonic [a perfect 50% duty cycle square wave lacks of even harmonics ..] of the input frequency, which has to be adjusted to minimum with R6, using the same stile resistors for ±0,1%, R4 and R5, with value 100 times of R6 a very good temperature stability could be achieved. for better short time stability R2 's top could bealso connected to Vr, If the drive capability of U1 is not enough for the load non-inverting buffers could be inserted to U1's output, of course that circuit wil contribute some phase noise/ jitter too. 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 7/25/2015 1:34 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: bypassing the inverter you will improve phase noise. Yuo will probably need a sine buffer at 10MHz to drive 50 ohms. This separator con be the solution: http://www.timeok.it/files/hp5065AoptH10v200.pdf high input impedance, output 50Ohm, high power handling and low additive phase noise. But before measure using an oscilloscope the output of the GPS OCXO directly on the output pin to verify if there is a sine-wave or square Luciano timeok Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPSDO question
Speaking with Tom recently impressed on me just how much I don't know about what's normal for a GPSDO. The options on the LEA-6T are formidable and have consequences for my GPSDO. The question I'm struggling with now is what's normal during the survey process? The only example of a commercial GPSDO I have is the KS-24361. I believe it leaves the oscillator output available and both the FLL and PLL are functioning. I've set the bit in the LEA-6T so that it doesn't emit the PPS when the time isn't valid. So, with the other restraints I've put on it (TDOP, TAcc, etc), there's no PPS during survey. That means there's no FLL or PLL, and the DAC is frozen, so I might as well shut off the oscillator output. On the one hand, a survey implies the OCXO has just been turned on and all the nastiness of early retrace. And the first several hours of these 34310-T OCXOs are horrible. OTOH, there's the KS which, by default anyway, ignores all that and does the best it can, and does it right quickly. I suppose it wouldn't be all that hard to add still more controls to allow it to work or not work as the user desires. Any input on the state of the art would be appreciated. Bob - AE6RV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz line data
Hi That correlates quite well with data from the 1960’s before “everybody” was on one big network. Bob On Jul 25, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: I've updated the graph at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2014-2015.pn g and added July-2015 at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2015-Jul.png July 19th shifted 15 seconds in one day! The shift is 25 seconds over July 17-19. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO question
Hi Commercial GPSDO’s are manufactured to a specific customer requirement. The application in the system dictates how it behaves as it it powered up or power cycled. There is no single “always correct” approach. In a Time Nut environment, people seem to be quite happy setting up temperature controlled areas that are stable to a small fraction of a C. They also seem to be able to set up power that never ever goes out. Both are quite different than the constraints on a commercial system. A GPSDO optimized for this sort of environment may be a very different beast. Survey performance varies from module to module. It also is highly dependent on your antenna and sky view. A survey with an antenna on top of a 300 M tall tower will progress very differently than a survey on an antenna at the bottom of a well. Commercial systems are designed with a good antenna location (or not) as part of the spec. Time Nuts seem to often have antennas at the bottom of a well. A full survey on an older GPS may take weeks with a poor antenna location. The same process on a new(er) GPS and a good antenna can complete in under 10 minutes. Thats a wide range. The answer to the survey issue in both cases (commercial and Time Nut) is to lock the GPS in a fixed location mode. Do the survey however you can. Get the best location possible. Load that location into the GPS each time it boots (or save it in the module). That way there is no survey process to mess things up. You also *should* have a much better location this way. The auto-survey process rarely gives a really good location. On Jul 26, 2015, at 12:27 AM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Speaking with Tom recently impressed on me just how much I don't know about what's normal for a GPSDO. The options on the LEA-6T are formidable and have consequences for my GPSDO. The question I'm struggling with now is what's normal during the survey process? The only example of a commercial GPSDO I have is the KS-24361. It’s a good example of an older GPSDO design that was done back when the GPS signal was being deliberately degraded by the DOD. I believe it leaves the oscillator output available and both the FLL and PLL are functioning. At least on the ones I have looked at, it continues to play with the output quite a bit for the first 12 hours and still is swinging things around over the next couple of days. I've set the bit in the LEA-6T so that it doesn't emit the PPS when the time isn't valid. So, with the other restraints I've put on it (TDOP, TAcc, etc), there's no PPS during survey. That means there's no FLL or PLL, and the DAC is frozen, so I might as well shut off the oscillator output. That depends a lot on when you shut it down and how good a DAC setting you have stored in memory. On the one hand, a survey implies the OCXO has just been turned on and all the nastiness of early retrace. Or (more likely in a commercial environment) there has been a brief power outage and things are trying to get going again. And the first several hours of these 34310-T OCXOs are horrible. …. and how were those OCXO’s treated before you got them …. OTOH, there's the KS which, by default anyway, ignores all that and does the best it can, and does it right quickly. I suppose it wouldn't be all that hard to add still more controls to allow it to work or not work as the user desires. Any input on the state of the art would be appreciated. Well, there are probably a dozen or so “controls” that you can set in a commercial environment. Time Nuts seem to like to fiddle. That would probably up the number into the several dozen range. There are a *lot* of corner cases (I can only see one sat a day for 10 minutes and want to do an auto survey …). If you include them all, there really is no upper bound other than exhaustion on the part of the designer. Consider that (as others have noted), every time you add a user settable control, you also add the likelihood it will be set incorrectly. Each time it is set wrong, you get a support call. So much fun…. Bob Bob - AE6RV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Flashback to 1988 (Austron Catalog)
Sure. I uploaded a scan of the catalog parts to KO4BB. It's listed in Recent Uploads awaiting sorting. As for the 2100F manual, is there a scan available online already? Dan On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cac2_fprrd0hpwbrqbejvwsiuaq8afrmn1be25wtdqnh+pxy...@mail.gmail.com , Dan Watson writes: The serial-numbered original manual was also included. Inside the plastic wrapping was an Austron catalog from 1988, complete with vintage smell! It is very interesting to look through. Attached is a picture of the spread for you Austron fans. Can we persuade you to all that stuff and uploade it to KO4BB or similar ? I'd love to get a chance to read it... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Suggested Low Noise Transistors
I offer the following for your consideration. Once upon a time - about 1968 Motorola introduced 4 low noise transistors for audio and low frequency applications. There were th 2N5086, 5087, 5088 and 5089. The 5086 and 5087 are PNP and the 5088 and 5089 are NPN. They are almost perfect complements to each other. They are still made though the part numbers are now MMBT2N5088L and so on. As of September 2014 I bought and used several of them in a photo transistor preamp for a laser theodolite receiver. They are commonly available from distributor stock. They differ slightly in noise figure and Beta. Since 1970 I have used them in a number of professional applications from DC up to 50 MHz. The latter a 6 channel summing amplifier for a military mapping photo transistor device. These are some of the hottest bi-polar devices known with a specified minimum beta of 150 at 100 uA. The beta is pretty flat up to 10 mA. The current gain bandwidth product varies from a bit less than 50 at 100 uA up to 500 at 10 mA. At 1 mA it is 200. The low frequency noise figure IS specified - 2N5086 3.0 dB MAX (Ic = 20 uA, Vce = 5 v, Rs = 10 K, from 10 Hz to 15.7 kHz) 2N5087 2.0 dB Max, 1.0 dB typical(Ic = 100 uA, Vce = 5V, Rs = 3K, f = 1.0 kHz) Data is provided for the effect of source resistance and Ic on the noise figure. Data for the complementary 2N5088 and 2N5089 is nearly identical. You can look it up. It is all on the data sheet for the original devices and may be found in the Semiconductor Data Handbook issued my Motorola in the 1970. the data may also be on the ON semiconductor web site among other places. With their relatively low high frequency response (as compared to a 2n2857) you are not risking oscillations up in the the microwave bands where most of you do not have the test gear to find and fix any funny business. This is a really nice calm set of devices and easy to use. I believe that when I bought them last year they were around a buck each. The 5086 and 5087 are PNP and the 5088 and 5089 are NPN. They are still made though the part numbers are now MMBT2N5088L and so on. As of September 2014 I bought and used several of them in a photo transistor preamp for a laser theodolite receiver. They are commonly available from distributor stock. I have not applied them in low noise oscillator applications and have no idea as to their suitability for that. But they are one hell of a transistor family and worth knowing about. Best regards john c roos K6iql spring hill ks ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Square to sine wave symmetrical conversion (part 2)
Hi Ummm …. errr…. The oscillator loop has a limiter in it or it’s not going to work very well. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range. With some tweaking you can get into the 170’s. It’s not the limiting by it’s self, it’s *how* the limiting is achieved. In most cases the “oscillator output” you are looking at is not the signal from the oscillator stage it’s self. You are looking at a signal that has been through several (like tuned) buffers before you see it. The same narrow band tuned stages can be used to “clean up” harmonics on any signal. The old style rack mount OCXO’s did a *lot* of this. Bob On Jul 25, 2015, at 11:47 PM, jerry shirᴀr radio.n...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily. Many oscillator circuits do not deliver a good sine wave to begin with This is very true. However if it is worse than -30dB harmonic sinewave back stream then the oscillator is probably extremely high in phase noise anyway. Since the threshold is off center, the phase noise of the 20% duty cycle squarewave will have additional amounts from the AM noise on the signal adding in from that threshold offset. The reason we want 50% is to get the cleanest signal possible with what we have to work with. :) Jerry N9XR. On Jul 25, 2015 3:17 PM, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote: it is relative easy to make a perfect 50% square wave from almost any input wave form U1 could be any-- fast enough for the desired frequency--comparator or a transistor pair similar to Charles Wenzel's circuit, R1 C1 is a long time integrator,[ RxC 1/f of the incoming frequency] the voltage at A is proportional with the duty cycle, U 2 is some high gain low noise, low input offset voltage high input impedance amplifier, the duty-cycle is set by R4/R5, fine tuning with R6, C2v removes the noise Vr is well stabilized reference voltage, To set up the circuit the output should be connected -- with DC decoupling -- to a spectrum analyzer's input for watching the second harmonic [a perfect 50% duty cycle square wave lacks of even harmonics ..] of the input frequency, which has to be adjusted to minimum with R6, using the same stile resistors for ±0,1%, R4 and R5, with value 100 times of R6 a very good temperature stability could be achieved. for better short time stability R2 's top could bealso connected to Vr, If the drive capability of U1 is not enough for the load non-inverting buffers could be inserted to U1's output, of course that circuit wil contribute some phase noise/ jitter too. 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 7/25/2015 1:34 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: bypassing the inverter you will improve phase noise. Yuo will probably need a sine buffer at 10MHz to drive 50 ohms. This separator con be the solution: http://www.timeok.it/files/hp5065AoptH10v200.pdf high input impedance, output 50Ohm, high power handling and low additive phase noise. But before measure using an oscilloscope the output of the GPS OCXO directly on the output pin to verify if there is a sine-wave or square Luciano timeok Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lab upgrade
Ok - not so bad. One of the 250v 5Amp inside the case blew on the 10v line. Now to work out why... J. On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: Recently I've been on the hunt for test gear so facilitate moving up into the microwave bands (ham radio), accurate timing being one of the basics to be sorted. As part of this I've recently acquired a HP 5335A with OCXO and HP5350B microwave frequency counter, both picked up today. I've setup a test stack using a stanford research function generator and my existing HP 5384A counter to compare all the kit, it was nice to see everything lock in within +5Hz @ 10MHz using only the internal reference. I'll have a GPSDO running in a couple of days to provide an external reference as well. Unfortunately after running for 15 minutes the HP 5335A literally went 'clunk' and now has no display which is disappointing as I wanted some of the measurement functions this unit provides. There's no odd small (for an old system) so I'm hoping its a reasonably simple problem, I'll open the case tonight. Does anybody have any experience with issues on the HP 5335A's ? Cheers j. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Who has a copy of:
les...@veenstras.com said: Once apron a time, somewhere in this neighborhood, someone, or possibly more than one, presented documentation of the phase/frequency stability of the local (I think SOCAL) power grid. AS I recall it was able to discern phase changes caused by local substations changing transformer taps.. I don't remember anything detailed enough to see changing transformer taps. I have samples every 10 seconds from Silicon Valley. That's good for watching the time on a line powered mechanical clock wander around. Here is an interesting sample: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/60Hz-2015-Jul-24-pick-a.p ng The step in the offset is an extra cycle somewhere in that 10 second period. I've assumed the steps in the frequency are some big generator or load switching on or off. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Square to sine wave symmetrical conversion (part 2)
Hi Bob, Help me to understand your remarks. A. The oscillator stage has a limiter. (Agreed.) B. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range? C. But we are not talking about the signal from the oscillator stage itself? D. Tuned buffers can have these higher harmonics and all is well? E. Okay. We are now talking about downstream harmonics and not the actual oscillator stage harmonics? Ideally the oscillator stage should have no tuned circuits so that the feedback of this oscillator stage utilizes only the tuned circuit of the high Q resonator. Okay. What frequency components should the hi Q resonator exhibit? Should it be rich in harmonics or should it be pretty limited to one frequency represented by a sinewave? Are we talking about the harmonics at the output of the actual oscillator stage or after a few buffer stages? Help me out here. Thanks, Jerry N9XR On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Ummm …. errr…. The oscillator loop has a limiter in it or it’s not going to work very well. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range. With some tweaking you can get into the 170’s. It’s not the limiting by it’s self, it’s *how* the limiting is achieved. In most cases the “oscillator output” you are looking at is not the signal from the oscillator stage it’s self. You are looking at a signal that has been through several (like tuned) buffers before you see it. The same narrow band tuned stages can be used to “clean up” harmonics on any signal. The old style rack mount OCXO’s did a *lot* of this. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz line data
There have been a number of proposals to completely eliminate manual time correction (used to keep synchronous clocks accurate over long time periods). There apparently was a manual procedure activated when the error reached +/- 30 seconds from true time, but I think that since 2011 the power grid reliability considerations have caused grid operators to not make any frequency changes for clock time correction. Frequency changes are often made to change the power transfer rate. See: FERC Docket RM14-10-000 Order: Real Power Balancing Control Performance Reliability Standard (issued April 16, 2015) - this doesn't mention use of time error correction! http://www.ferc.gov/whats-new/comm-meet/2015/041615/E-3.PDF FERC docket RM09-13-000: Time Error Correction Reliability Standard http://www.balch.com/files/upload/%284-24-2010%29%20NERC_BAL-004_NOPR_Comments.pdf In October 2012 this petition was withdrawn. 60Hz Stability on Power Grid Going Away? http://www.radiomagonline.com/deep-dig/0005/60hz-stability-on-power-grid-going-away/33527 NERC Frequency Response Standard Background Document http://www.nerc.com/comm/oc/rs%20landing%20page%20dl/related%20files/bal-003-1_background_document_clean_20121130.pdf It appears from various comments that with no manual time correction, the accumulated time error in the East Interconnection will typically gain 20+ minutes/year. The West will gain 8 minutes/year and ERCOT (Texas area) will gain 2 minutes/year. http://www.ercot.com/content/meetings/rms/keydocs/2011/0518/03_manual_time_error_correction_elimination_field_trial.doc So don't trust an AC synchronous motor clock in North America. -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Sun, Jul 26, 2015, at 07:08 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi That correlates quite well with data from the 1960’s before “everybody” was on one big network. Bob On Jul 25, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: I've updated the graph at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2014-2015.pn g and added July-2015 at: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/line/Calif-60Hz-2015-Jul.png July 19th shifted 15 seconds in one day! The shift is 25 seconds over July 17-19. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. _ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt serial question
Hi, My Datum Starloc recently died after 12 years in service so I am replacing it with a Trimble Thunderbolt. The Starloc used a DB9 female to female null modem cable but I noticed a minute ago when getting ready to connect the Thubderbolt to my laptop that the Thunderbolt has a female DB9 connector. So the question is do I need a gender changer in order to use my existing null modem cable, or does the thunderbolt use a standard M-F serial cable? Thanks. Chris KD4PBJ — Sent from Mailbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Austron 2010B useful in Australia/Sydney at all ?
I can pick one up in excellent condition for a reasonably low price... but only if it could be useful. J. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] [Bulk] Thunderbolt serial question
Chris, I'm not in my shop right now but I think it is a standard cable. Don't recall needing a 'null modem' cable for the TBolt. I needed one for the Z3816A. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Waldrup Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 11:47 AM To: TIme Nuts Subject: [Bulk] [time-nuts] Thunderbolt serial question Hi, My Datum Starloc recently died after 12 years in service so I am replacing it with a Trimble Thunderbolt. The Starloc used a DB9 female to female null modem cable but I noticed a minute ago when getting ready to connect the Thubderbolt to my laptop that the Thunderbolt has a female DB9 connector. So the question is do I need a gender changer in order to use my existing null modem cable, or does the thunderbolt use a standard M-F serial cable? Thanks. Chris KD4PBJ — Sent from Mailbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lab upgrade
And I have seen them without scorch marks - the tatalums are especially prone to failing with a dead short. Use an ohmeter to confirm that the 10V is shorted to ground and then use a soldering iron and lift one leg of the cap until you find it (them all). 20-30 years is about the magic number. I am also into electronic music and lots of people just go ahead and re-cap an instrument if it is that old - cuts the hassle-factor by several orders of magnitude. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 14:07 To: ja...@ball.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lab upgrade Hi Look for electrolytic / tantalum capacitors on the 10V rail with scorch marks.. Bob On Jul 26, 2015, at 12:59 AM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: Ok - not so bad. One of the 250v 5Amp inside the case blew on the 10v line. Now to work out why... J. On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: Recently I've been on the hunt for test gear so facilitate moving up into the microwave bands (ham radio), accurate timing being one of the basics to be sorted. As part of this I've recently acquired a HP 5335A with OCXO and HP5350B microwave frequency counter, both picked up today. I've setup a test stack using a stanford research function generator and my existing HP 5384A counter to compare all the kit, it was nice to see everything lock in within +5Hz @ 10MHz using only the internal reference. I'll have a GPSDO running in a couple of days to provide an external reference as well. Unfortunately after running for 15 minutes the HP 5335A literally went 'clunk' and now has no display which is disappointing as I wanted some of the measurement functions this unit provides. There's no odd small (for an old system) so I'm hoping its a reasonably simple problem, I'll open the case tonight. Does anybody have any experience with issues on the HP 5335A's ? Cheers j. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60Hz line data
It's not just synchronous-motor clocks that use line frequency as a time reference. I have a Heathkit alarm clock that counts cycles of line frequency as its timebase. I think that was common in the early generations of NMOS clock chips. The clock does have a backup oscillator (powered by a 9 V battery) for use when line voltage disappears, but its accuracy is horrible. I think it's an RC oscillator, and in a power failure of a few hours it will accumulate minutes of time error. So a bunch of people with analog and digital clocks from that era are likely to notice the drift, particularly at 20 minutes/year. When did 32 kHz crystals get cheap enough that line-powered clocks started using them as a time reference instead of counting line cycles? - Dave On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Bill Byrom t...@radio.sent.com wrote: 60Hz Stability on Power Grid Going Away? http://www.radiomagonline.com/deep-dig/0005/60hz-stability-on-power-grid-going-away/33527 NERC Frequency Response Standard Background Document http://www.nerc.com/comm/oc/rs%20landing%20page%20dl/related%20files/bal-003-1_background_document_clean_20121130.pdf It appears from various comments that with no manual time correction, the accumulated time error in the East Interconnection will typically gain 20+ minutes/year. The West will gain 8 minutes/year and ERCOT (Texas area) will gain 2 minutes/year. http://www.ercot.com/content/meetings/rms/keydocs/2011/0518/03_manual_time_error_correction_elimination_field_trial.doc So don't trust an AC synchronous motor clock in North America. -- Bill Byrom N5BB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Flashback to 1988 (Austron Catalog)
Dan next test 6-7 August not much time. What is your location? Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Dan Watson watsondani...@gmail.com wrote: I bought a nice Austron 2100F this past week. It is very much new old stock. The unit is pristine and powers up just fine. I'll have to get an antenna built before the next eLoran test. The serial-numbered original manual was also included. Inside the plastic wrapping was an Austron catalog from 1988, complete with vintage smell! It is very interesting to look through. Attached is a picture of the spread for you Austron fans. Regards, Dan W. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Square to sine wave symmetrical conversion (part 2)
Hi On Jul 26, 2015, at 2:48 PM, jerry shirᴀr radio.n...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bob, Help me to understand your remarks. A. The oscillator stage has a limiter. (Agreed.) B. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range? yes C. But we are not talking about the signal from the oscillator stage itself? yes D. Tuned buffers can have these higher harmonics and all is well? not if they are properly tuned. The tuning is bandpass in nature. E. Okay. We are now talking about downstream harmonics and not the actual oscillator stage harmonics? nope. Ideally the oscillator stage should have no tuned circuits so that the feedback of this oscillator stage utilizes only the tuned circuit of the high Q resonator. Fine unless you have an overtone crystal. Roughly 99.99% of all low noise stuff runs on an overtone. That forces you to some sort of “zonal filter” in the feedback path. Okay. What frequency components should the hi Q resonator exhibit? The resonator has impedance properties. Should it be rich in harmonics or should it be pretty limited to one frequency represented by a sine wave? All *real* resonators have “rich” impedance plots. An SC very much so. Are we talking about the harmonics at the output of the actual oscillator stage or after a few buffer stages? No, we’re talking about the signals present in a typical oscillator stage it’s self *before* you decide to clean them up and *after* you make this or that choice about where to get a signal from. Help me out here. Your oscillator *must* meat Barkenhausen’s criteria. It’s got to have a gain of *exactly* one and a phase shift of *exactly* zero degrees (modulo 360 degrees). Anything else and it will not sustain oscillation. If the oscillator has a gain of one all the time, it’s unlikely it will ever start oscillating. The only practical way to make an oscillator work is to provide “excess gain” at starting. If that gain is in the 3 to 6 db range, the norm is to take care of it by limiting. If you look at a very conventional circuit that runs a single transistor as the oscillator stage, that stage is both a limiter and the sustaining stage for the oscillation. If you take a look at the collector current, it’s far from continuous. Pick off from there without any bandpass tuning and shove the result into a phase noise analyzer. Phase noise is as good as any other point on the oscillator. Harmonics *may* be down 6 db (more likely 10) …. Bob Thanks, Jerry N9XR On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Ummm …. errr…. The oscillator loop has a limiter in it or it’s not going to work very well. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range. With some tweaking you can get into the 170’s. It’s not the limiting by it’s self, it’s *how* the limiting is achieved. In most cases the “oscillator output” you are looking at is not the signal from the oscillator stage it’s self. You are looking at a signal that has been through several (like tuned) buffers before you see it. The same narrow band tuned stages can be used to “clean up” harmonics on any signal. The old style rack mount OCXO’s did a *lot* of this. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lab upgrade
Hi Look for electrolytic / tantalum capacitors on the 10V rail with scorch marks…. Bob On Jul 26, 2015, at 12:59 AM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: Ok - not so bad. One of the 250v 5Amp inside the case blew on the 10v line. Now to work out why... J. On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: Recently I've been on the hunt for test gear so facilitate moving up into the microwave bands (ham radio), accurate timing being one of the basics to be sorted. As part of this I've recently acquired a HP 5335A with OCXO and HP5350B microwave frequency counter, both picked up today. I've setup a test stack using a stanford research function generator and my existing HP 5384A counter to compare all the kit, it was nice to see everything lock in within +5Hz @ 10MHz using only the internal reference. I'll have a GPSDO running in a couple of days to provide an external reference as well. Unfortunately after running for 15 minutes the HP 5335A literally went 'clunk' and now has no display which is disappointing as I wanted some of the measurement functions this unit provides. There's no odd small (for an old system) so I'm hoping its a reasonably simple problem, I'll open the case tonight. Does anybody have any experience with issues on the HP 5335A's ? Cheers j. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lab upgrade
Thanks for that Bob. From the circuit diagram the path to ground appears to be on either the 3v the 5v lines that are fed via this fuse. When I disconnect the power supply from the rest of the system the fuse doesn't blow which suggests the fault is in the logic board, of course it could simply mean that connector completes the circuit. I'll buzz out the pins on the connnector there and see if I can find the probably short and let people know. Cheers Jason. On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Look for electrolytic / tantalum capacitors on the 10V rail with scorch marks…. Bob -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Square to sine wave symmetrical conversion (part 2)
We seem to have wandered into one of my favorite subjects, oscillators that make very low distortion sine waves. I found this 1960 HP journal article to be most useful: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1960-04.pdf Best quote:In fact, were it not for [amplifier] nonlinearity, it would be impossible to build a simple oscillator with good envelope stability [...] This is borne out by the fact that occasionally oscillators show up in production which, because of a fortuitous combination of tube characteristics, exhibit extremely low distortion. Invariably these units give trouble with with envelope bounce [...] N1EKV also had a nice article in a 2010 QEX about the battle between amplitude stability and low distortion sine wave output (not sure this is available online). Tim N3QE On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:48 PM, jerry shirᴀr radio.n...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Bob, Help me to understand your remarks. A. The oscillator stage has a limiter. (Agreed.) B. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range? C. But we are not talking about the signal from the oscillator stage itself? D. Tuned buffers can have these higher harmonics and all is well? E. Okay. We are now talking about downstream harmonics and not the actual oscillator stage harmonics? Ideally the oscillator stage should have no tuned circuits so that the feedback of this oscillator stage utilizes only the tuned circuit of the high Q resonator. Okay. What frequency components should the hi Q resonator exhibit? Should it be rich in harmonics or should it be pretty limited to one frequency represented by a sinewave? Are we talking about the harmonics at the output of the actual oscillator stage or after a few buffer stages? Help me out here. Thanks, Jerry N9XR On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Ummm …. errr…. The oscillator loop has a limiter in it or it’s not going to work very well. You can *easily* get -160 dbc/Hz with an oscillator that has harmonics in the -10 to -20 range. With some tweaking you can get into the 170’s. It’s not the limiting by it’s self, it’s *how* the limiting is achieved. In most cases the “oscillator output” you are looking at is not the signal from the oscillator stage it’s self. You are looking at a signal that has been through several (like tuned) buffers before you see it. The same narrow band tuned stages can be used to “clean up” harmonics on any signal. The old style rack mount OCXO’s did a *lot* of this. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 100 Mhz OCXO by PTI FS
I have a few 100 Mhz OCXO by PTI (and other manufactures) that I would like to sell. Trying to fund another project. Email me direct, off list for info. Chris N3IZN ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt serial question
Hi Chris, it's a standard serial cable. Here is a good FAQ on the tbolt at leapsecond: http://www.leapsecond.com/tbolt-faq.htm mg NG7M On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Chris Waldrup kd4...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, My Datum Starloc recently died after 12 years in service so I am replacing it with a Trimble Thunderbolt. The Starloc used a DB9 female to female null modem cable but I noticed a minute ago when getting ready to connect the Thubderbolt to my laptop that the Thunderbolt has a female DB9 connector. So the question is do I need a gender changer in order to use my existing null modem cable, or does the thunderbolt use a standard M-F serial cable? Thanks. Chris KD4PBJ — Sent from Mailbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- M. George ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Flashback to 1988 (Austron Catalog)
I don't think there is one. Watch out there is one located I believe on a Chinese site. I was told its actually malware. On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Dan Watson watsondani...@gmail.com wrote: Sure. I uploaded a scan of the catalog parts to KO4BB. It's listed in Recent Uploads awaiting sorting. As for the 2100F manual, is there a scan available online already? Dan On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message cac2_fprrd0hpwbrqbejvwsiuaq8afrmn1be25wtdqnh+pxy...@mail.gmail.com , Dan Watson writes: The serial-numbered original manual was also included. Inside the plastic wrapping was an Austron catalog from 1988, complete with vintage smell! It is very interesting to look through. Attached is a picture of the spread for you Austron fans. Can we persuade you to all that stuff and uploade it to KO4BB or similar ? I'd love to get a chance to read it... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt serial question
Thanks to all who helped me out. I really appreciate it. . I got it working and now see satellites with Tboltmon program. Chris KD4PBJ Monteagle, TN — Sent from Mailbox On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:09 PM, M. George m.matthew.geo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Chris, it's a standard serial cable. Here is a good FAQ on the tbolt at leapsecond: http://www.leapsecond.com/tbolt-faq.htm mg NG7M On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Chris Waldrup kd4...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, My Datum Starloc recently died after 12 years in service so I am replacing it with a Trimble Thunderbolt. The Starloc used a DB9 female to female null modem cable but I noticed a minute ago when getting ready to connect the Thubderbolt to my laptop that the Thunderbolt has a female DB9 connector. So the question is do I need a gender changer in order to use my existing null modem cable, or does the thunderbolt use a standard M-F serial cable? Thanks. Chris KD4PBJ — Sent from Mailbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- M. George ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Austron 2010B useful in Australia/Sydney at all ?
I've decided to pick up this unit as it is in really nice condition and inexpensive. I'll see if I can pickup the e-loran signals on my ham kit over that weekend to see if there is any point, failing that another member of time buts may be interested. J On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Jason Ball ja...@ball.net wrote: I can pick one up in excellent condition for a reasonably low price... but only if it could be useful. J. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lab upgrade
Recently I've been on the hunt for test gear so facilitate moving up into the microwave bands (ham radio), accurate timing being one of the basics to be sorted. As part of this I've recently acquired a HP 5335A with OCXO and HP5350B microwave frequency counter, both picked up today. I've setup a test stack using a stanford research function generator and my existing HP 5384A counter to compare all the kit, it was nice to see everything lock in within +5Hz @ 10MHz using only the internal reference. I'll have a GPSDO running in a couple of days to provide an external reference as well. Unfortunately after running for 15 minutes the HP 5335A literally went 'clunk' and now has no display which is disappointing as I wanted some of the measurement functions this unit provides. There's no odd small (for an old system) so I'm hoping its a reasonably simple problem, I'll open the case tonight. Does anybody have any experience with issues on the HP 5335A's ? Cheers j. -- -- Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/ ja...@ball.net vk2...@google.com vk2f...@google.com callsign: vk2vjb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
