Re: [time-nuts] Casio Wave Ceptor wrist watch - quick accuracy test

[David G. McGaw]

I think you guys won the luck of the draw.  I have had a Casio 
WV200DA-1AV Wave Ceptor for a while, module 3140.  Nice watch, but it 
gains about 1/2 sec per day when not synchronized.  I recently got a 
Casio GW-M5610 G-Shock, module 3153.  I have not run it unsychronized, 
so have not checked its drift, but other G-Shocks have been quite good.  
It is the higher-end line with tighter specs and they actually have a 
trimmer inside.


David N1HAC


On 6/11/18 6:30 AM, Dana Whitlow wrote:

I bought a Casio 'atomic watch" about 3 months ago, one which uses the
'3405' module.
I've also been running checks with radio setting turned off, and mine is
coming in at
just under 1 sec per month, based on seeing how long it takes to drift one
second.

But I find that visual/aural coordination is a poor way to do business- if
the error is near
zero (or an integer number of seconds), my eye/ear/brain will shift to make
it look like
it's "right on" within a few seconds even if the initial look says it's a
little bit off.

I hadn't thought of the video approach- sure wish I had a means to record
video and
then view it frame by frame.

Dana


On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 3:20 AM, Esa Heikkinen  wrote:


Hi!

There seems to be some kind of comeback going on with 80's style digital
watches. You may find replicas of some 80's models or even re-makes of the
original models from original manufacturer.

So I decided to get one. As a time-nut my primary goal was to have radio
controlled 'atomic' model. So I ended up to Casio Wave Ceptor
WV-59DE-1AVEF. There's many models available from basic digital models like
this to very nice ones with with full titanium body (analog style). But
because of the 80's is hot it had to be digital...

Wave Ceptors suport all time signals formats (US, UK/German and Japan) and
correct standard is automatically selected when home city is set.

One of the first things to do was to test the accuracy with radio
syncronization turned off. Correct time was fist set with DCF77. Then I
switched off the synconization. After beign about three days off there was
no significiant visible error on time. In the video we can see however
about one frame error, which means about 40 milliseconds. Still that's
pretty good result for wrist watch. Also, the syncronization will occur
once per day when the reception is good.

So the watch must be at least calibrated in the factory. Don't know if the
watch performs any kind of self-calibration according to radio
syncronization results, most likely not - but it would be technically
possible.

So far so good, it's accurate enough - at least as new. When
syncronization is turned on, there should never be visible error on time.

Here's my test video:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_A23buFeHd0=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Ca8e76ed2d4b54ed75dce08d5cf866ee5%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636643098739784325=EH0F8vRQK0jmROrREGrD9jDMcd2JQglutxZO%2BVff7t0%3D=0

--
73s!
Esa
OH4KJU
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for Mains Power Monitor / Logger

[David G. McGaw]

I expect 1/R^2 would prevent such a scheme from working as the 
terrestrial transmitters would vary widely in signal strength in a way 
that GPS satellites do not and could overload the receiver.


David N1HAC


On 3/12/18 9:54 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:

Reading this paper makes one wonder if there are other improvements that
can be made to increase the robustness against jamming, software bugs, 
solar events

or hostile attacks to the GPS system

A suggestion:

Create a parallel terrestrial GPS system.   This would be a system of 
GPS transmitters
mounted on cell phone towers.   They would masquerade as GPS 
satellites (but unusually low
and stationary).   It would be ideal if they could have unique 
identifiers and be integrated
into the GPS receivers timing and location calculations as any other 
satellite.   If there
is no room in the existing ID space then the terrestrial node would 
take over the ID of
a satellite that is below the horizon.   When the satellite reappeared 
the terrestrial node

would simply take over a different below the horizon satellite's ID.

Such a system could be built out as needed.   It may not require any 
alterations to existing
GPS receivers.   It would not disrupt the operation of the existing 
satellite constellation.
It would protect against attacks on the satellite system by either a 
human enemy or a natural

one, the sun.

Each node need not contain an accurate time source like a cesium 
standard.   They could
derive timing from a neighbor.   Cesium reference nodes would be 
periodically placed around the
system.   Timing derivations would be more accurate since the 
distances would be much closer and

thereby encounter less environmental disturbance.

GPSDO units would prefer such close and stationary references vs 
distant moving ones.


Pete.

On 3/11/2018 5:26 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi Andy,

On 03/11/2018 08:40 PM, Andy Backus wrote:

Thank you for your posting, Magnus.

Your information is very interesting.

Do you mind saying a little more about the "incident" on 
26-JAN-2016?  I don't find reference to it in the link.  And my own 
TE plot for then shows no obvious disturbance.


Thanks.

Please read this:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Frubidium.dyndns.org%2F~magnus%2Fpapers%2FGPSincidentA6.pdf=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Ca4a010b972b74eba0aa208d5890f2665%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636565620521190534=DvYknd%2F9wuMeyr0DaSNwdZPuPunA8I8XBmSp1nXnm38%3D=0 



In short, the GPS to UTC time correction polynomial got screwed up.

I got email from NASA, ended up having to call NASA HQ and got invited
to Washington DC to present before the US PNT advisory board.

Among the stranger things I've done in my life, but it was fun.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[David G. McGaw]

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and 
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the 
technical or lay person, give a reason.


David N1HAC


On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:

Hello all,

Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:

   
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D=0

This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
cycle using NTP for reference.

Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.

Regards,
   Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)



On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:

Hi,

from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.

I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.

Cheers
Detlef Schücker
DD4WV

(See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)

"time-nuts"  schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:


Von: Gerhard Hoffmann 
An: time-nuts@febo.com
Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
Gesendet von: "time-nuts" 



Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:

This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.

Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for

future discussions...
Does that help?

<
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D=0
album-72157662535945536/
          >

Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to

4Vpp.

Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
middle of the night after all.
They have to catch up.

BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
weekend
I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.

The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
so I can enforce
quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.

The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
the 89441A.
One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
MTI-260s on
my oscillator carrier board.

Have a good night,
Gerhard

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Xtal Osc Question

[David G. McGaw]

There are several models of the oscillator that have been made.  The 
-60111 was common as the high-stability option in many HP counters and 
signal generators.  The differences are documented on page 79 of the 
10811 data sheet available on the Keysight website: 



David N1HAC


On 3/6/18 11:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:

List,
When perusing HP xtal oscillators on ebay I noticed some cases were marked HP 
10811 and the same appearing unit was marked HP 10811-60111.
Are both the same for TN purposes?
If so what are the differences?
Regards,
Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] PBS, Tue evening, The Secret of Tuxedo Park

[David G. McGaw]

Here is the PBS website which includes the full video: 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/secret-tuxedo-park/#part01


David N1HAC


On 1/16/18 1:14 PM, paul swed wrote:

Hello to the group.
I did read the book several years ago. Its quite good and I had no idea
about any of this.
Sort of amazing.
So the fact that PBS is doing a show on this is going to be good to watch
tonight.
Thank you for sharing.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Azelio Boriani 
wrote:


...he would wear it on the outside of his wrist instead of the inside,

so that gravity changed the rate of the tuning fork...
Sort of manual turbillon...

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

I can't stress enough how important Loomis was to the history of precise

timekeeping in early radio, telephone, pendulum clock, quartz oscillator
era. And for those of us who still have Loran-C receivers can thank him
(Loomis Radio Navigation -> LRN -> Loran).

So I highly recommend the 2003 book "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.simonandschuster.com%2Fbooks%2FTuxedo-Park%2FJennet-=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=qFPSaqAEbfKwjfSO9D76XsqMfIm91Kw6eZuKLsmTvqo%3D=0

Conant/9780684872889

Our kind of guy. In the "Palace of Science" chapter she writes: Loomis

would remain a "time nut" for the rest of his life, according to Luis
Alvarez, who recalled that Loomis always wore "two Accutrons--one on his
right wrist and one on his left wrist." He would check them every day
against WWV (the standard frequency broadcasting station of the National
Bureau of Standards), and if one was gaining a half second on the other, he
would wear it on the outside of his wrist instead of the inside, so that
gravity changed the rate of the tuning fork and the two watches tracked
each other, and WWV, "to within less than a second a day."



Some other Loomis links of interest:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAlfred_Lee_Loomis=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=%2FkxpYWQyHhOGfAPH6N6enMskObQhtRzC8oK5j0sZLFk%3D=0
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLORAN=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=ijMVI04uZM0eTrbLuv4mUY%2B083xMfjWbNpZ3MTc7t9c%3D=0
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimeandnavigation.si.edu%2Fnavigating-air%2Fnavigation-=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=jYgt%2FrAP8cQKLvF9R4nVZG3k6nKUJzbJnJTzOcM5UAM%3D=0

at-war/new-era-in-time-and-navigation/alfred-loomis

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ob-ultrasound.net%2Floomis.html=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=GWqcRU3I3aUBiLOIE5Mw3Ei0YcSjgWIkZbUYIzlR%2FFw%3D=0
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleapsecond.com%2Fpages%2Floomis%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=ClO8gkx05Vq6qhDr5hkYYiwUO8na8HA1%2FYjNAGWuNZk%3D=0


And the clever way to do time transfer and compare precision clocks to 1

ms in the 1930's...

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleapsecond.com%2Fpend%2Fshortt%2F1931-RAS-Precise-=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=q9iz56t67V0%2BwCYEVnkAtHxpVPLT3WeJo9Q%2FECXznzU%3D=0

Measurement-Time-Loomis.pdf


Also the classic "The Evolution of the Quartz Crystal Clock" by Warren

A. Marrison:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fieee-uffc.org%2Fabout-us%2Fhistory%2Fuffc-s-history%2Fthe-=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=%2Fhbhe1nN0EpFHrUC9lbFRX8vdOzsqVFh7K6pkUncVQ0%3D=0

evolution-of-the-quartz-crystal-clock/

via 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fieee-uffc.org%2Fabout-us%2Fhistory%2Fuffc-s-history%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C2baf103d9c32419fccc108d55d0d047f%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636517232850475383=gkQ3dzxJODXSS2QoxyZ9pCDH%2FvMNByXOxXDkbWelwDE%3D=0
and original at 

Re: [time-nuts] Identify RFTGM-II-XO Part

[David G. McGaw]

Hi Dan,

That would be a MMIC amplifier.  Transistors have Q reference 
designators.  U's are ICs.  Take a look on the other side for markings.  
It appears to have been mounted upside-down.


David N1HAC


On 1/10/18 12:22 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:

Patrick,

It's possible that's one of the integrated RF amps, and not just an RF 
transistor.


You should be able to tell by tracing out the circuit. The inputs and 
outputs will typically be capacitor coupled, with DC fed to the output 
through a chip inductor or similar choke and resistor. There are some 
other variations, but that's a pretty common style part.


Here's and example. Although I doubt this is exactly what you have.
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.minicircuits.com%2Fpdfs%2FERA-1%2B.pdf=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C00427658632047168ebd08d5584e8f93%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636512016803493571=MUR%2FKgKEJQeJRDNUK6ADoG4fGhQFxkNF31LVg6hzPlk%3D=0 

If it's one of these style amp's, you may be able to find a compatible 
part if you know the rough gain required and frequency of operation.


It appears there is a mini circuits part close by, possibly tied into 
this amp. Can you tell what part of the circuit this board covers? GPS 
signal, etc?


Dan


On 1/10/2018 1:26 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 23:33:33 -0600
From: Patrick Murphy
To:time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Identify RFTGM-II-XO Part
Message-ID:

Re: [time-nuts] UltrAtomic clock.

[David G. McGaw]

We have a number of the UltrAtomic clocks in our Physics classrooms at 
Dartmouth in NH because they are in well shielded, interior rooms and a 
noisy environment.  Lesser clocks do not sync.  They all switched properly.


Perhaps of interest, I was able to receive the new code reliably with an 
evaluation receiver in Kangerlussuaq, Greenland last spring.


David N1HAC


On 11/5/17 11:36 AM, Mike Garvey wrote:

My Ultratomic properly made the transition back to std time this morning.  I am 
in the Boston area.
Mike

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:49
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] UltrAtomic clock.

Hi

All of the ones here (a fairly large sample :) ) seem to have changed “on time”.
I’m in Pennsylvania so not exactly close to WWVB. They are various brands and 
various ages. None of them (yet) are the fancy new ones that do the “improved”
modulation.

Bob


On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:23 AM, Dan Kemppainen  wrote:

Hi all,

So, anyone notice what time their UltrAtomic clock did the dst change?

Mine didn't change last night. Time has been right since it first set
itself, so, I'm suspecting it's getting signal. ( We're in northern
Michigan, eastern time zone.)

Anyone else have a clock that missed dst change?

Dan


--
Sent from my phone.
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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

[David G. McGaw]

No, the flare also produced a CME, which is expected to reach us 
tomorrow and may (hopefully?) trigger a G-3 class geomagnetic storm.


http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1=07=09=2017

David N1HAC
Dartmouth College
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
Space Physics Group
(Yes, I am a rocket scientist.)


On 9/7/17 10:47 AM, jimlux wrote:

On 9/6/17 2:46 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:

It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC


On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
mixing up a flare with a CME ?
Alan
G3NYK




CME was earlier this week, whether it is connected to the subsequent 
flare, or it's just coincidence is a question of heliophysics.


This is somewhat poorly understood - in fact, in a few years (2021 - 
NASA funding willing) we're going to put some satellites into orbit 
above GEO to look at radio emissions (Type II radio bursts) from the 
sun connected with CMEs.  Time-nuts connection is that we're going to 
be doing interferometry among the multiple satellites which means the 
independent recordings have to be time synchronized for processing. 
We're planning on using GPS satellites on the "other side" of the 
earth, grazing the limb, and a suitably stable onboard oscillator.  I 
don't imagine I have to explain the general timing concept to this 
particular crowd.


The idea is that we can see more of the physics of the creation and 
emission of the CME, and more importantly, *where* the changes are 
occurring as the CME evolves.


CMEs, as the name implies, occur in the corona.  Flares are tied to 
sunspots, and occur in the surface or deeper.  Granted, both phenomena 
are all tied up in twisting lines of magnetic fields, so there may be 
some relationship among them.


I'm just learning all this heliophysics stuff - all I have to do is 
build, launch, and operate the satellites - Top women and men on the 
science team will do the physics with the data.





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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

[David G. McGaw]

It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC


On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:
The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists 
mixing up a flare with a CME ?

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Mark Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 8:50 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.



It might be coming here...

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F09%2F06%2Fbiggest_solar_flare_in_years_heading_our_way%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C41d65efbdfcd41b163e708d4f56d6fe6%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636403297765507567=sv4874WVgjHxh%2Fv94LL%2FQNT3BagNSbdjIG4TC%2FawfvU%3D=0 



You might want to break out your eclipse monitoring equipment...
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[David G. McGaw]

It appears there is no command to set the current time in the 
Thunderbolt.  Too bad.  I have some very old Garmin OEMs (GPS35) that 
work fine as long as I set the time and date to be close.  I just had to 
do a RAM reset ( $PGRMI,,,C   ) on one which had gotten 
corrupted and would not report position properly (all zeros).  After 
reset, once it got its initial fix it was reporting a date in 1997, but 
reports correctly now that the time and date were set (also using the 
$PGRMI command).  It even has the current GPS week (1959) correct.


David N1HAC


On 7/28/17 11:36 AM, Dave B via time-nuts wrote:

Interesting.

What about NTPD implementations, when using a TB as the reference time
source?  Does that handle the week count roll over as well?  If that was
added, from what version?

I suspect I may have some updating to do!   I use a TB as a frequency
ref' and local NTP/NTPD server reference.

The local TB here is showing "week 1959" top left of LH's display window
(Rev 5.01)

Cheers.

Dave G0WBX.


On 28/07/17 08:14, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Well quite an unpleasant surprise. So after the 30th do the TBolts stop

Paul,

This topic has been covered a number of times over the years. Some time-nuts have even run 
TBolt's under GPS simulators to verify that the 10 MHz and 1PPS outputs will be fine. So 
apparently the only effect is that the date & time (in binary TSIP messages) are off by 
1024 weeks. This rollover-related effect is by now a "common" issue with many GPS 
receivers.

The current version of Mark's Lady Heather program has code to detect this and 
fix it so you're good to go for the next 19.6 years.

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[David G. McGaw]

Just tried it, came up 4 sec. slow.  Refreshed the page and it was correct.

David N1HAC


On 5/11/17 7:52 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:

I checked it on two different computers and again just now, all were counting 
5+ seconds slow.  I then downloaded their flash app which as an option I never 
had to do and that was correct.  Both of the apps claim to be adjusted for 
network delay.

This was around 14:00Pacific.  I just checked again and both apps are now 
correct.  I’ll have to dig into the issue.



On May 11, 2017, at 3:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html

About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.

Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
web pages so refresh may be necessary.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Jerry Hancock 
Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 


I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
me off a week later…

Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
give or take about .2 seconds.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP10811 Oscillator Thermal Fuse

[David G. McGaw]

I too have had a fuse open up due to a failed thermistor in a HP10811.

David N1HAC


On 5/10/17 7:43 PM, Dan Rae wrote:
As I reported the last time this subject came up, or maybe the time 
before, the only time I had an open thermal fuse was in a 10811 that 
had an open thermistor.  I was able to replace that and get the OCXO 
working, but if the fuse had been replaced with a wire link I'm sure 
the entire oven would have been toast.


There have been two types of fuse fitted, all I those have are the 
type that can be fitted with the plug in axial panasonic type, less 
than a dollar from Digikey.  The older ovens had a different type but 
I imagine it's similarly easy to replace.


All my 10811s have the higher temperature Panasonic fuse fitted and I 
sleep well at night...


Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] HP E1938

[David G. McGaw]

I just heated up with a soldering iron and pulled out the pins of a standard 
DB25 connector that would get in the way.  No problem, lovely budgie.


David N1HAC



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bruce Griffiths 

Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 11:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement; Larry McDavid
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP E1938

More precisely the active EFC range is +1.25 to +3.75V with an absolute minimum 
of 0V and an absolute max of +5V.

At least this is the range that the pseudo differential AD7714 ADC inputs 
monitoring the EFC are configured for.

Bruce

> On 16 April 2017 at 14:57 Bruce Griffiths  wrote:
>
>
> 0 to +5V dc max, however only the 0 to 2.5V range appears measurable by 
> the AD7714 ADC on the PCB.
>
> Increasing the EFC voltage decreases the capacitance in series with the 
> crystal requiring an increase in the inductance exhibited by the crystal 
> hence requiring a lower oscillator frequency.
>
> Bruce
>
> > >
> > On 16 April 2017 at 13:01 Larry McDavid  wrote:
> >
> > The units now available on eBay have various types of D-Subminiature
> > connectors and can be on either side of the board. I will have to 
> > wait
> > until my unit arrives to see what I get. It should be possible, if
> > necessary, to remove the connector and replace it with a more 
> > convenient
> > D-Submin connector on the desired side of the board.
> >
> > I did not originally note the additional zip'd info available from 
> > that
> > eBay website but now have those files. Thanks for that link.
> >
> > So far, I have not seen any spec for the EFC voltage and polarities 
> > used
> > in the "Integrated PWB." Anyone know that?
> >
> > The "full instrument" version also available now on eBay is a 
> > complete
> > GPSDO but at $130 plus $80 shipping. I really don't need yet another
> > GPSDO but would use the integrated PWB assembly for a low ADEV
> > free-running 10 MHz source. I have a HP 10811D for that now but will
> > evaluate this new unit for performance.
> >
> > Anyone have experience doing this and know the EFC requirements?
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On 4/15/2017 4:01 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > It's been 20 years, but I will try to recap what I remember
> > > about this connector. I believe there were 3 customers,
> > > and one of them required the DB connector with coax inserts
> > > for reasons of backward compatibility. I think this
> > > vendor was Motorola. We did not actually use the coax
> > > inserts, but left them blank and ran the RF, etc on
> > > ordinary pins. I believe you can make an ordinary male
> > > DB-25 mate with these insert versions by clipping off some
> > > of the pins that would be blocked by the female insert
> > > version. I vaguely remember that the other 2 vendors
> > > used gender changers or something. There might have
> > > an issue with the mating plane location being different
> > > for different customers.
> > >
> > > I am sure that time-nuts, being talented at repurposing,
> > > will be able to think about this problem and come up with
> > > a simple solution to interfacing with these boards.
> > > No need to buy insert type connectors. I never had
> > > any trouble making cables that connected to these units
> > > using plain vanilla DB25's.
> > >
> > > Rick N6RK
> > >
> > > On 4/15/2017 10:42 AM, Larry McDavid wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > Ok, so a standard DB 25-pin socket-contact connector 
> > > > will mate with the
> > > > on-board connector with the center hole and missing 
> > > > pins. That's good!
> > > >
> > > > I now notice a comment on your webpages about this 
> > > > device in which you
> > > > mention a schematic. Do you have a schematic of this 
> > > > board? If so, can
> > > > you point to it or send me a copy.
> > > >
> > > > I was unaware of the complete packaged unit on eBay; 
> > > > thanks for that.
> > > >
> > > > Another poster mentioned the wiring of the connector on 
> > > > the full
> > > > instrument version power connector; is that pin-out and 
> > > > spec available?
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > On 4/15/2017 5:05 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > 

Re: [time-nuts] Totally unrelated, but..

[David G. McGaw]

One has to be very careful with LDOs.  As we say in applications, 
RTFDS.  :-)  The output capacitor often needs a finite ESR (effective 
series resistance).  A too-large ceramic cap WILL make them oscillate.  
I have noticed that they are used in some GPSDOs.


David


On 12/8/16 11:39 AM, Van Horn, David wrote:

Yes, I hit one of those. I forget the frequency other than around 1 MHz, but it 
was pretty warm when it shouldn't have been, and it was several volts amplitude.

This thing I'm chasing is much more subtle.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 1:57 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Totally unrelated, but..

I don't think so.  I first ran into a batch of LM340-5's that were excellent 
oscillators back in the 1970's... long before counterfeiting was even remotely 
possible.

The symptom is the regulator puts out only 4.5 out of 5V.

LM309's were, however, totally immune.

Usually, I had to be really bad to make it happen, things like using clip leads 
between the power supply and load with the LM340-5 dangling in between.

The answer is as simple as a couple of 0.1uf ceramic caps soldered right at the 
input and ground, and the output and ground pins.

LDO (low dropout) regulators are very susceptible to oscillation.  They need to 
have a couple of hundred uf of good quality capacitance right on the input and 
output leads.  Where people usually get in trouble, is in not knowing that 
electrolytic capacitors lose most of their capacitance as the temperature 
starts hovering around 0C.

The circuit works great on the bench, but fails when out hanging on a light 
pole...

-Chuck Harris

Joe Leikhim wrote:

Could the low noise parts actually be counterfeit, relabeled as such?

Is the circuit the regulator feeds sensitive to a narrow band of
voltage that the "good regulator" is outside of?

Try replacing the regulator with a battery supply and resistor divider
to attain the working voltage. Move the voltage around. A good
potentiometer and stiff filter capacitors are recommended so as not to introduce 
"pot noise".

Is something corrupting your test procedure?  I had a circuit that
misbehaved due to floating logic pins reacting to static electricity
on the work bench. Another time a diode was photosensitive.




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Re: [time-nuts] Audio format with embedded timestamps?

[David G. McGaw]

The AES3 and S/PDIF formats have provision to carry SMPTE time code within the 
stream.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES3#Embedded_timecode


David N1HAC



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Tim Shoppa 

Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:19 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Audio format with embedded timestamps?

I think I have asked this question at least once here in past years but I
don't remember coming away with a satisfying answer.

Is there a common digital audio format that embeds in the digital stream, a
timestamp marker of real-world-clock-time that the audio was recorded at?

At my "day job" we have many digital "system of record" phone and radio
recording systems. The best they do, is to timestamp the filenames they
generate with the start time.

In decades past at work we had multitrack audio recorders doing this, that
recorded on an independent audio track the IRIG timecode already
distributed throughout the control center. This was really spiffy because
we had a playback station that could display the IRIG timecode even under
fast forward and rewind. I suppose I could do the same with a multitrack
WAV or other common audio format file but I don't know of any software that
would support the nifty IRIG display functionality.

I know that in the TV/video editing world, they have long used SMPTE and
derivative timecodes embedded in the video signal, and I'm guessing (been a
long time since I worked in the video editing field) that modern video
editing formats have progressed the SMPTE functionality.

Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] Sick Trimble Thunderbolt

[David G. McGaw]

Connector part numbers and wiring are here: 
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/power.htm


David


On 11/29/16 10:39 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The connector is a standard PC item. Pre wired supplies are an eBay item. Multi 
output
industrial supplies are something I get from TRC. There are lots of vendors. 
For bench
testing, hooking the harness to your normal bench supplies is probably a better 
bet than
hooking into a brick.

Bob


On Nov 29, 2016, at 10:22 AM, W1KSZ  wrote:

The output level on one of my T-Bolts has dropped way off so it's off to the 
bench with it.

I thought  I had a spare power supply and power connector but it's no where to 
be found.

Any suggestions where I can find a spare supply and power connector ? The one I 
use is
powering another so I can't borrow it.

Tnx es HH, Dick, W1KSZ
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Re: [time-nuts] How phase stable is rg59 or alternate coax

[David G. McGaw]

Note that partial air core (9913) and foam dielectric is better than 
solid polyethylene.


David N1HAC


On 11/21/16 5:39 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:

At one point I contemplated running Andrews "Heliax" for my GPS antenna.   Part 
of the rationale was due to the data presented in page 2 of the following paper.

http://ivs.nict.go.jp/mirror/meetings/v2c_wm1/phase_stability.pdf

I subsequently decided to stay with my existing run of plenum rated RG58.  The 
bulk of my cable run is indoors where the temperature is fairly stable.

Regards
Mark Spencer




On Nov 21, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Scott Stobbe  wrote:

When I first took a look at some of the coax datasheets I couldn't find
anything. I was able to find the following paper "phase stability of
typical navy radio frequency coaxial cables"
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/628682.pdf I attached the table
from the last page. They estimate RG59 to have a tempCo of -330 PPM/degC
for electrical length. They also estimated RG-58 at -480 PPM/degC.


On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:44 PM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

I can't find the data right now, but will keep digging.  There's also a
short paper from the early 2000s from Haystack on their measurement of
LMR400 in an environmental chamber.  They came to the same conclusion, but
I can't find that paper either. :-


John, many thanks for the Haystack tip! That is a wonderful paper, I
believe the one you are quoting is "Dispersion and temperature effects in
coax cables" http://www.haystack.mit.edu/tech/vlbi/mark5/mark5_memos/067.pdf

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Re: [time-nuts] 53132 replacement fan

[David G. McGaw]

I will point out that I have rejuvenated many a fan by peeling off the 
round label covering the bearing and adding a small amount of oil.


David N1HAC


On 11/21/16 12:57 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 11/21/16 6:39 AM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Tom wrote:


EFB0412MD
Airflow 7.17 CFM
6300 RPM
Noise 24 dBA

FBK04F12U
Same exact form factor.
Air Flow 9.2 CFM
9500 RPM
Noise 42 dB(A)


Note the 18dB greater noise (that's a HUGE difference).  Even with bad
bearings in the original fan, it is probably considerably quieter (by
10dB or more) than the proposed replacement.  On the other hand, the
replacement moves 28% more air, which may be a good thing.



That's a 40mm fan, which is a standard size, I'll bet you can find a 
slower turning/quieter fan.


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Re: [time-nuts] Question about AD9832 "I out Full Scale" (what does it mean?)

[David G. McGaw]

There is something wrong with the example.  The output is single-ended, 
so using info from the AD9832 data sheet with Rset=3.9K and Rload=300 
ohms as shown in the EVB schematic, it should go from 0 to 3.88mA and 0 
to 1.16V.  Figure 12 shows only half this, including only about .3V DC 
bias instead of .58V.


I apologize.  As a former Analog Devices applications engineer (Digital 
Audio Group), I find this data sheet and user guide poorly written.  
They have a lot of digital and almost no analog information.


David N1HAC


On 11/17/16 11:09 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

Trying to figure out what "Iout Full Scale" means on the AD9832.
Some time nuts may have used this one.

On page 7 of this doc:

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/user-guides/UG-313.pdf 



It shows the AD9832 output as 572 mV peak to peak
across 300 ohms.  This works out to 1.9 mA peak to
peak current through the resistor.  But Rset on the
board is 3.9K, which is supposed to give a value
for so-called "Iout Full Scale" of 3.878 mA.

I would have thought (just guessing) that peak to
peak output current would be equal to Iout Full
Scale, but it appears to be only half of that.

Can anyone clarify this?

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] precision timing pulse

[David G. McGaw]

The PIC can easily be programmed to be armed with a switch and stop at a 
particular count, or you can use actual logic - debouncer, gating 
flip-flop and programmable counter!


David N1HAC


On 11/15/16 1:57 PM, Chuck / Judy Burch wrote:


I'm building a laboratory scintillation counter that uses my HP 5335a 
counter as a read-out.  The FREQ mode gives only approximate results 
(maximum gate time is about 5 seconds).  The TOT mode counts pulses 
for an arbitrary time that can be set using the "external arm input" 
on the rear panel.  So I need a timing pulse (of either polarity) of 
known and adjustable width (time).  One way to do this is with a PIC 
frequency divider taking the counter 10MHz output down to 1 PPS 
following that with two or three ripple counters to get a 1 - 5 - 10 - 
50 ... sequence.  That I understand.


How do I get a pulse to start with a push button and then stop for 
example 500 or 10,000 seconds later?



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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David G. McGaw]

It has been my experience that both chemistries have thermal cutouts for 
overcharge limiting and both can use chargers that detect the negative 
voltage slope when the cells heat up once they are fully charged, hence 
the ability to use the same chargers for NiCd and NiMH.  I have many 
radios that started out with NiCd batteries and the newer replacements 
are NiMH.


David

On 9/16/16 2:37 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi David:

The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas 
Ni-MH is Exothermic.  This is why chargers for Ni-MH have a mandatory 
temperature sensor.  This is one of the reasons I say Ni-Cad cells 
batteries are easy to charge.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[David G. McGaw]

NiMH batteries are close the same voltage and charge the same as NiCd 
and are more available and not toxic when disposing of them. They should 
be a good replacement.  Lithiums are very different in voltage and charging.


David N1HAC

On 9/14/16 10:19 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 


Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.

73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:


Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html


Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
just replace the old cells?



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Re: [time-nuts] [Bulk] 10811 unsoldered fuse

[David G. McGaw]

That probably is an original thermal cutout.  It matches ones I have 
found when repairing 10811As.


David


On 10/20/15 7:59 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

Dimitri,

That clearly is not the 'original' thermal fuse that I found in my 10811.
Mine was a small, axial lead, cylindrical part.

It looks like someone substituted a different part (is that a fuse or a
cutoff?) and did a poor job soldering.  I think the temperature is correct
though.  I'd have to look at the manual to know for sure.

My 'fuse' failed and I replaced it.  All the soldering was OK on my unit.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dimitri.p
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 2:32 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [Bulk] [time-nuts] 10811 unsoldered fuse

How common is it to find undetected missing solder on 10811 parts after all
these years?

Dimitri

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Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info

[David G. McGaw]

That is not true.  If the converter is set to 192kHz sampling, the 
bandwidth will be nearly 96kHz, typically at least 80kHz, not limited to 
20kHz.  That is the POINT of 192kHz sampling.


David N1HAC


On 8/5/15 10:03 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

Scott:

You won't be able to use an off-the-shelf audio card, because they will have
filters that cut off just above human hearing limits, somewhere in the
mid 20 kHz range.  I was referring to the data converter chips they use
on those high end cards.  The circuit for ~80 kHz (Nyquist) low pass
filters
and antenna interface would likely be a custom card.

For the guys talking about the Tayloe receivers, the Tayloe front end is
just
a down converter to get the HF or VHF signals down into the range that WWVB
is already in.  So to receive WWVB, you only need the backend of the Tayloe
receiver, ie., no Tayloe mixer required.  Just the (audio) data converter
and the
DSP.

--- Graham / KE9H

==

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Scott Newell newell+timen...@n5tnl.com
wrote:


At 12:40 PM 8/5/2015, Graham / KE9H wrote:


Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

There are several high end audio Analog to Digital Data converters that
will clock at 192 kHz, ~23 bits ENOB, which puts a 60 kHz signal sweetly
in
the first Nyquist zone. Typical NF of the front end of the data converter


Any specific recommendations? I've seen the Asus Xonar U7 (USB) and Asus
Xonar D1 (PCI) mentioned on some of the SDR sites. (I'm running XP and
linux.)


--
newell


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