Re: [time-nuts] True Position GPSDP + Rb X72

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Meaning home=home ?  just kidding. ,long staying constant 
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2017 8:45:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi,

On 09/24/2017 02:30 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>  Hi
> 
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2017, at 9:39 PM, Hal Murray   wrote:
>>
>>
>>  kb...@n1k.org said:
>>> If the main use is feeding test gear (and  not direct synthesis) an Rb 
may do
>>> pretty well. Most  instruments assume a dirty reference signal and 
clean it
>>> up  internally.
>>
>> What's the bandwidth on the typical  cleanup PLL?  How well does that 
match
>> the noise from a  Rb?
> 
> It’s like any other PLL with noise involved. You look at  the noise of 
the Rb, the
> noise of the particular cleanup oscillator,  and your system 
requirements. In some
> cases that comes out to a few  seconds. For Time Nut grade with a really 
good
> OCXO you are at some  pretty long numbers.
> 
> If the Rb starts at 2x10^-11 at 1 second  and goes down by square root 
tau: At
> 100 seconds you are at 2x10^12.  Still not as good as a really good OCXO. 
At
> 10,000 seconds you might  get to 2x10^-13 (but probably will not). Your 
OCXO
> likely will climb  out of the “parts in 10^-13” range before 10,000 
seconds.
> 
>  Lots of fun.

Once up on a time, you could order the OSA cesiums width  different 
oscillators, essentially to buy into different balances between  
oscillator cost and performance. The time constant is adapter with  
regards to oscillator type, as the trade off shifts.

I can't recall  any other cesium or rubidium that did this, but HP 
upgraded oscillators at  one point for this reason  too.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

correct !
 
 
In a message dated 9/17/2017 1:51:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
cjaysh...@gmail.com writes:

Yes.

An instrument with a calibration certificate is not  necessarily accurate
but it's inaccuracies are known and can be compensated  for (but only to the
accuracy of the calibration reference of  course.)



On 17 Sep 2017 17:39, "Magnus Danielson"   
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The  word "calibration" is overloaded with multiple meanings, and
>  incompatible too.
>
> "calibration" is often used to describe  adjustments to make a device
> operate correctly, such as passing the  performance checks.
>
> "calibration" in legal traceability is  about measure the performance
> against references to form a traceable  record of deviations from the 
norml.
> This may include adjustment to  ease compensation, but this is not
> necessary. Regardless of wither  adjustments where done or not, the
> calibration record will indicate  the errors that then needs to be applied
> to the measurement for the  measurement to be traceable, and this in 
itself
> requires documented  knowledge about how to do the measurement.
> Otherwise it's just a fancy  indication.
>
> Adjustment to a reference thus do not imply legal  traceability, or even
> full functionality.
>
> For full  functionality, you have to go through the performance check and
> see  that all values is within limits.
>
> "calibration" can thus imply  different things.
>
> I regularly see people use these terms  inconsistently. That people get
> disappointed when they get the wrong  thing is to be expected.
>
> Cheers,
>  Magnus
>
> On 09/17/2017 05:23 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
>
>> As to the point most modern instruments have self  calibration,   Most of
>> the time 'calibration' is simply  the performance check adjustments are 
not
>> performed unless  necessary
>>
>> The difference being the instruments used in  performance test are
>> traceable to a national standards  body.
>>
>> So whats referred to as calibration is in  reality performance 
validation.
>>
>> How do I know this by  becoming friendly with the local lab and years ago
>> when i worked  for govt i used to moonlight at one of the local cal  
labs.
>>
>> On Sep 17, 2017, at 8:57 AM, KA2WEU--- via  time-nuts 

>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Modern test and radio equipment have  self calibration capabilities, 
older
>>> analog do not.  Calibration is not always need for  just simple test, 
but
>>>  for specification conformation it is useful. A bit  of luck also   
helps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In a message dated 9/17/2017 8:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
>>> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk  writes:
>>>
>>> On 15  Sep 2017 10:45, "Scott  McGrath"wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Precisely my point,But when purchasing i  expect to pay for  a
>>>>
>>> calibration at a  minimum.
>>>
>>> I have on occasions  requested  sellers to send an item to the
>>> manufacturer
>>>  (Agilent or Keysight)  for calibration *before* shipping it to  me,
>>> offering
>>> to pay the calibration   cost, but stating that I expect a full refund 
if
>>>  the
>>> item fails the   calibration.
>>>
>>> If a test equipment dealer is  confident that something is  working 
well,
>>> they should  not object to sending it to the manufacturer for
>>>  calibration,
>>> as long as the buyer is willing to  pay.
>>>
>>> Of course if a  seller knows little  about something,  they are not 
going
>>> to
>>>  do  this,  but the item should be appropriately  priced.
>>>
>>> One UK seller  (grace1403)  declined to send an Agilent N9912A FieldFox 
to
>>> Agilent,  because  "Agilent were too fussy"., failing items for  trivual
>>> issues.But he did agree to send it to  one of the cal labs he uses. 
I
>>> thought it  was a waste of  time going to one of the less fussy outfits,
>>>  but
>>> bought it anyway. It was then clear on receipt that it was  faulty.  
(The
>>> spectrum analyser functionality was ok, but  it didn't work as a  
network
>>> analyzer).  He took it  back,  but then advertised it on  eBay 6 months
>>>  later. When asked, he said nothing had been done to   it.
>>>
>>> eBay rules about who pays the return  shipping charge for an item  that 
is
>>> "not as described'  keep changing, and may be different on different
>>>  sites.
>>

Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

good point 
 
 
In a message dated 9/17/2017 2:01:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jim...@earthlink.net writes:

On  9/17/17 9:42 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
> Simply call it " Make  it to meet specification", N1UL
>   
>
> In a message dated 9/17/2017 12:39:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> The word "calibration" is overloaded with multiple  meanings,  and
> incompatible too.
> 

> "calibration"  can thus imply different things.
> 
> I  regularly see people  use these terms inconsistently. That people get
> disappointed when they  get the wrong thing is to be  expected.
> 
> Cheers,
>  Magnus
> 


Indeed - in my business, we have to be careful  about the word "test" vs, 
say, "characterization".  A "test" has a  pass/fail criteria associated 
with it, while a "characterization" might  just need recording what the 
value is.  "tests" have institutional  requirements for witnessing, etc. 
that "characterizations" do not, for  instance.

And this gets into the whole "knowledge" vs "control" - I may  not care 
if a XO changes frequency 10ppm over temperature, as long as it's  
repeatable and I can know the actual frequency within 0.5  ppm.


As Magnus points out, "calibration" can mean many different  things, and 
some of them are historically derived.  Back in the day,  there may have 
been some sort of physical adjustment required to, for  instance, set the 
scale factor of a display - but now, it's "calibrated by  design", and 
the "calibration process" (as in "sending it to the cal lab"  to get a 
"cal cert") is more about verification that it's not  "broken".

I also used to (and still do) get bent out of shape when  you'd send 
something like a power supply out for cal, and it would come  back with 
some problem (like a non-functioning pilot light).  And the  cal lab 
would say: "we checked the output voltage and it is within  spec".  Yeah, 
but isn't "proper function of all features" covered -  and the response 
would be "no, it is not, we don't see 'verify function of  pilot light' 
on the cal procedure we have"

ANd then there's the  "calibration/validation" phase of instruments in 
space - that's a  completely different kind of thing, more akin to 
characterization.. The  'val' part is yes, verifying that the instrument 
is working as  designed,but the 'cal' part is more about relating 
instrument measurements  to some other reference, and from that, relating 
it to some physical  property of interest.  And that can happen at many 
levels.

A  spaceborne scatterometer to measure winds can be cal/val at
1) Does the  instrument work, and are the instrumental effects accounted 
for - if it  measure a particular backscatter cross section, is that what 
the  backscatter cross section really is?
2) Does the "retrieval model function"  that turns backscatter 
measurements into wind speed and direction  work?

And particularly for #2, a lot of it is inferential - comparing  one 
model against another, since there's not really "ground truth"  available.


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Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Simply call it " Make it to meet specification", N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 9/17/2017 12:39:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi,

The word "calibration" is overloaded with multiple  meanings, and 
incompatible too.

"calibration" is often used to  describe adjustments to make a device 
operate correctly, such as passing  the performance checks.

"calibration" in legal traceability is about  measure the performance 
against references to form a traceable record of  deviations from the 
norml. This may include adjustment to ease  compensation, but this is not 
necessary. Regardless of wither adjustments  where done or not, the 
calibration record will indicate the errors that  then needs to be 
applied to the measurement for the measurement to be  traceable, and this 
in itself requires documented knowledge about how to  do the measurement.
Otherwise it's just a fancy  indication.

Adjustment to a reference thus do not imply legal  traceability, or even 
full functionality.

For full functionality,  you have to go through the performance check and 
see that all values is  within limits.

"calibration" can thus imply different things.

I  regularly see people use these terms inconsistently. That people get  
disappointed when they get the wrong thing is to be  expected.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 09/17/2017 05:23 PM, Scott  McGrath wrote:
> As to the point most modern instruments have self  calibration,   Most of 
the time 'calibration' is simply the  performance check adjustments are not 
performed unless necessary
>  
> The difference being the instruments used in performance test are  
traceable to a national standards body.
> 
> So whats referred to  as calibration is in reality performance validation.
> 
> How do I  know this by becoming friendly with the local lab and years ago 
when i worked  for govt i used to moonlight at one of the local cal labs.
>  
>> On Sep 17, 2017, at 8:57 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts  
 wrote:
>>
>> Modern test and  radio equipment have self calibration capabilities, 
older
>> analog  do not. Calibration is not always need for  just simple test,  
but
>> for specification conformation it is useful. A bit  of  luck also   
helps.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a  message dated 9/17/2017 8:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>  drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes:
>>
>>> On 15   Sep 2017 10:45, "Scott McGrath"wrote:
>>>
>>> Precisely my point,   But  when purchasing i  expect to pay for a
>> calibration at a  minimum.
>>
>> I have on occasions  requested sellers  to send an item to the 
manufacturer
>> (Agilent or Keysight)   for calibration *before* shipping it to me, 
offering
>> to pay the  calibration  cost, but stating that I expect a full refund 
if  the
>> item fails the  calibration.
>>
>> If a  test equipment dealer is confident that something is  working  
well,
>> they should not object to sending it to the manufacturer  for  
calibration,
>> as long as the buyer is willing to  pay.
>>
>> Of course if a  seller knows little about  something,  they are not 
going to
>> do  this,  but  the item should be appropriately priced.
>>
>> One UK  seller  (grace1403) declined to send an Agilent N9912A FieldFox  
to
>> Agilent, because  "Agilent were too fussy"., failing items  for trivual
>> issues.But he did agree to send it to  one of the cal labs he uses. I
>> thought it  was a waste of  time going to one of the less fussy outfits,
>> but
>>  bought it anyway. It was then clear on receipt that it was faulty.   
(The
>> spectrum analyser functionality was ok, but it didn't work as  a  network
>> analyzer).  He took it back,  but then  advertised it on  eBay 6 months
>> later. When asked, he said  nothing had been done to  it.
>>
>> eBay rules about  who pays the return shipping charge for an item  that 
is
>> "not  as described' keep changing, and may be different on different   
sites.
>> But on a heavy item shipped internationally,  the  postage cost  can be
>> comparable or exceed the  calibration  cost.
>>
>> Dave.
>>  ___
>> time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go  to
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>  __

Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

 
And if the performance is not validated, then they fix it.. I hope.
 
I do a lot of phase noise measurements , spectrum analysis and power  
measurements  and S/N ratio measurements so I need correct tool .
 
 

 
 
In a message dated 9/17/2017 11:23:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
scmcgr...@gmail.com writes:

As to  the point most modern instruments have self calibration,   Most of  
the time 'calibration' is simply the performance check adjustments are not  
performed unless necessary 

The difference being the instruments used  in performance test are 
traceable to a national standards body.

So  whats referred to as calibration is in reality performance  validation.

How do I know this by becoming friendly with the local lab  and years ago 
when i worked for govt i used to moonlight at one of the local  cal labs.

> On Sep 17, 2017, at 8:57 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts  
 wrote:
> 
> Modern test and radio  equipment have self calibration capabilities, 
older  
> analog do  not. Calibration is not always need for  just simple test, but 
  
> for specification conformation it is useful. A bit  of luck  also  helps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message  dated 9/17/2017 8:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>  drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes:
> 
>> On 15  Sep  2017 10:45, "Scott McGrath"wrote:
>> 
>> Precisely my point,   But when  purchasing i  expect to pay for a
> calibration at a  minimum.
> 
> I have on occasions  requested sellers to send  an item to the 
manufacturer
> (Agilent or Keysight)  for  calibration *before* shipping it to me, 
offering
> to pay the  calibration  cost, but stating that I expect a full refund if 
the
>  item fails the  calibration.
> 
> If a test equipment dealer  is confident that something is  working well,
> they should not  object to sending it to the manufacturer for  
calibration,
> as  long as the buyer is willing to pay.
> 
> Of course if a   seller knows little about something,  they are not going 
to
>  do  this,  but the item should be appropriately priced.
>  
> One UK seller  (grace1403) declined to send an Agilent N9912A  FieldFox to
> Agilent, because  "Agilent were too fussy"., failing  items for trivual
> issues.But he did agree to send it to  one of the cal labs he uses. I
> thought it  was a waste of time  going to one of the less fussy outfits,  
 
> but
>  bought it anyway. It was then clear on receipt that it was faulty.   (The
> spectrum analyser functionality was ok, but it didn't work as  a  network
> analyzer).  He took it back,  but then  advertised it on  eBay 6 months
> later. When asked, he said  nothing had been done to  it.
> 
> eBay rules about who pays  the return shipping charge for an item  that is
> "not as  described' keep changing, and may be different on different   
sites.
> But on a heavy item shipped internationally,  the postage  cost  can be
> comparable or exceed the calibration   cost.
> 
> Dave.
>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Modern test and radio equipment have self calibration capabilities, older  
analog do not. Calibration is not always need for  just simple test, but  
for specification conformation it is useful. A bit  of luck also  helps.
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/17/2017 8:08:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk writes:

On 15  Sep 2017 10:45, "Scott McGrath"   wrote:
>
> Precisely my point,   But when purchasing i  expect to pay for a
calibration at a minimum.

I have on occasions  requested sellers to send an item to the manufacturer
(Agilent or Keysight)  for calibration *before* shipping it to me, offering
to pay the calibration  cost, but stating that I expect a full refund if the
item fails the  calibration.

If a test equipment dealer is confident that something is  working well,
they should not object to sending it to the manufacturer for  calibration,
as long as the buyer is willing to pay.

Of course if a  seller knows little about something,  they are not going to
do  this,  but the item should be appropriately priced.

One UK seller  (grace1403) declined to send an Agilent N9912A FieldFox to
Agilent, because  "Agilent were too fussy"., failing items for trivual
issues.But he did agree to send it to one of the cal labs he uses. I
thought it  was a waste of time going to one of the less fussy outfits,   
but
bought it anyway. It was then clear on receipt that it was faulty.  (The
spectrum analyser functionality was ok, but it didn't work as a  network
analyzer).  He took it back,  but then advertised it on  eBay 6 months
later. When asked, he said nothing had been done to  it.

eBay rules about who pays the return shipping charge for an item  that is
"not as described' keep changing, and may be different on different  sites.
But on a heavy item shipped internationally,  the postage cost  can be
comparable or exceed the calibration  cost.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] R&S XSRM Rubidium Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

To all:
 
I would highly recommend not to buy used test equipment on e-bay , mine  
(R&S) or HP or similar.
 
These pieces are mostly out of calibration , defective , just too expensive 
 to repair. I have 3 XSRM systems, which I co designed in 1970, they came 
from  e-bay and needed $ 5000 + to be in shape.
 
My advise :Hands off.
 
Ulrich Rohde , N1 UL 
 

xx
 
 
In a message dated 9/12/2017 8:59:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:

A friend  of mine has bought a just out of calibration R  & S XSRM Rubidium 
 
standard from one of the so called "recyclers" on   Ebay.

Although the price was good, and it came with the off air   receiver, phase 
meter, and frequency divider, it looks to have been  heavily  
decommissioned 
with deliberate damage to the internal wiring  and the  rubidium lamp 
removed.

We've found the relevant manuals  online and he's confident he can  repair 
the wiring but he still  needs to locate a lamp.

If anyone has a working lamp available, or  might know where one  could be 
obtained, please contact me off  list.

He did comment that the lamp assembly looked as though it might  accept the 
 
lamp from an Efratom FRK, can anyone confirm  this?
Alternatively, is there likely to be any risk of damage to the   FRK lamp 
or 
to the XSRM lamp driver if he tries it but it's not   compatible?

Nigel
GM8PZR


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Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Test Set For Sale

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Used to be  the best around ...
 
 
In a message dated 8/23/2017 8:28:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
druc...@sonic.net writes:

I am  selling my HP 3048 phase noise test set as I don’t use it that much 
anymore.  Complete with 5316 counter, 3561 and 3585 spectrum analyzers, and 
PC with  windows phase noise software.



Eric Drucker  (druc...@sonic.net)

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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

well,that is a good question. Knowing the publishing industry a yea after  
submission of the manuscript , so end of 2018 if we pull our act together  
...   
 
 
In a message dated 8/18/2017 6:31:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
wb4...@wb4gcs.org writes:

When  will it be available??

Jim

wb4...@amsat.org



On  8/18/2017 4:17 PM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts wrote:
> Yes, and  there is a lot of useful material in place including CMOS  and 
related  new topics and update on numerical controlled oscillators . Thanks, 
 Ulrich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 18,  2017, at 2:58 PM, David Bengtson   
wrote:
>>
>> That's good news. It would be good to have a  single reference for noise 
correlation.
>>
>>  Dave
>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 7:04 AM   wrote:
>>>Good Morning all  ,
>>>   
>>> yes , it became non trivial but  Enrico agreed to take over the old 
chapter 2. He thinks I do not use IEEE  norm  abbreviation and the noise 
correlation part did not exist 20 years  ago.And many new and important things  
So 
I thing we are  settled.
>>>   
>>> Thanks,  Ulrich
>>>   
>>> In a message dated  8/14/2017 9:10:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.bengt...@gmail.com  writes:
>>> Ulrich - Did anyone ever agree to help update  this?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>  Dave
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM,  KA2WEU--- via time-nuts 
  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you look at the  outline to determine what might be  needed 
or
>>>> missing  .
>>>>
>>>>  Ulrich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  In a message dated 3/11/2016 11:09:51 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,
>>>> att...@kinali.ch  writes:
>>>>
>>>> Hoi   Ulrich,
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:52:58  -0500
>>>> KA2WEU--- via time-nutswrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  I have published the following   book
>>>>>
>>>>> " Microwave and Wireless  Synthesizers: Theory and  Design, Ulrich L.
>>>>  Rohde,
>>>>> John Wiley & Sons, August 1997,   ISBN  0-471-52019-5."
>>>> [...]
>>>>>  As I am more or less now in  microwave technology and less in  PLL  
IC's,
>>>> I
>>>>> hate to see this   standard textbook disappear Who can help or  
want
>>>>  to
>>>>> take  over?
>>>> Da ich sowieso  für mich was grösseres über  Zeit/Frequenzmessung
>>>>  amzusammenstellen bin, und da PLL's grundsätzlich auch  dazu  gehören,
>>>> wäre ich interessiert. Mein Problem dabei ist,  dass ich von  der
>>>> praktischen Seite aber kaum eine  Erfahrung habe und für mich  alleine
>>>> die Arbeit mit  ziemlicher Sicherheit zuviel wäre. Aber es wäre   
möglich,
>>>> dass ich zum Beispiel mit Magnus zusammen und  vielleicht der Hilfe  
von
>>>> ein paar anderen time-nuts  und/oder Enrico etwas auf die Beine stellen
>>>>  könnte.
>>>>
>>>> Was wären denn die Dinge,  welche für dich, in ein Update rein   
müssten?
>>>>
>>>> Gruess aus  Saarbrücken
>>>>
>>>> Attila  Kinali
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> It is  upon moral qualities that a  society is ultimately founded.  All
>>>> the prosperity and technological  sophistication  in the world is of no
>>>> use without that   foundation.
>>>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil   Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good Morning all ,
 
yes , it became non trivial but Enrico agreed to take over the old chapter  
2. He thinks I do not use IEEE norm  abbreviation and the noise correlation 
 part did not exist 20 years ago.And many new and important things  So I  
thing we are settled.
 
Thanks, Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/14/2017 9:10:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
david.bengt...@gmail.com writes:

 
 
Ulrich - Did anyone ever agree to help update this?  


Regards


Dave


On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, KA2WEU--- via  time-nuts 
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) > wrote:


Why  don't you look at the outline to determine what might be  needed  or
missing .

Ulrich




In a message dated  3/11/2016 11:09:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_attila@kinali.ch_ (mailto:att...@kinali.ch)  writes:

Hoi   Ulrich,

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:52:58 -0500
KA2WEU--- via  time-nuts  <_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) 
>  wrote:

> I have published the following  book
>
>  " Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and  Design, Ulrich  L.
Rohde,
> John Wiley & Sons, August 1997,  ISBN   0-471-52019-5."
[...]
> As I am more or less now  in  microwave technology and less in  PLL IC's,
I
> hate  to see this  standard textbook disappear Who can help or   want
to
> take  over?

Da ich sowieso für mich  was grösseres über  Zeit/Frequenzmessung
amzusammenstellen bin, und  da PLL's grundsätzlich auch  dazu gehören,
wäre ich interessiert.  Mein Problem dabei ist, dass ich von  der
praktischen Seite aber  kaum eine Erfahrung habe und für mich  alleine
die Arbeit mit  ziemlicher Sicherheit zuviel wäre. Aber es wäre  möglich,
dass ich  zum Beispiel mit Magnus zusammen und vielleicht der Hilfe  von
ein  paar anderen time-nuts und/oder Enrico etwas auf die Beine  stellen
könnte.

Was wären denn die Dinge, welche für dich, in ein  Update rein  müssten?

Gruess aus Saarbrücken

Attila  Kinali

--
It is upon moral  qualities that a  society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity  and technological  sophistication in the world is of no
use without  that  foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil   Stephenson

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for OSA 3210 information

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Who is selling "used" Cesium standards ?   Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/1/2017 3:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi  Skip,

Björn called me and made me aware of your need. I had already  seen it 
briefly, but I was doing a music festival, så no ability to do  anything 
about it.

Anyway, I have the full OSA 3000 manual, but the  3210 manual I got 
electronically is similar enough. I serviced 7 of these,  but no major 
problems so far, got 5 of them myself.

Toss a separate  email with an electronic version. Let me know if you 
need something  scanned from my original manual.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/31/2017  09:35 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:
> Hello time-nuts,
>
> I'm  looking for a User Manual or Service Manual for the Oscilloquartz OSA
>  3210 cesium standard.  So far my search has turned up nothing.  TVB  as a
> User Manual for the OSA3200, which I assume is an earlier (though  similar
> model).
>
> The cesium unit is an OSA 3000 and any  documentation on it would be a
> start.  The unit that I have has  an 8612 oscillator in it.
>
> Electronic copies would be great,  but I'm always willing to pay
> shipping/copy costs for  hardcopy.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
>  Skip Withrow
>
>  

>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>  

>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] Cross-correlatiion workshop at EFTF-IFCS-2017

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

A similar topic is in
 
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7138792/
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/22/2017 6:15:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Fellow  time-nuts,

I thought that I should write a few lines about the  EFTF-IFCS, so a good 
start would be the Cross-correlation workshop which  is about addressing 
the complexities of the cross-correlation measurement  and achieving 
stable and proper measurements. This session was curated by  Prof. Enrico 
Rubiola of femtosecond and Craig Nelson of NIST.

OK,  for those that don't know about the issue, let me get a quick 
explanation  here. For a long time cross-correlation have been a 
technique to remove  the internal noise of two, by feeding the source 
into two channels using a  power-splitter, and then each channel add its 
noise which is uncorrelated.  The cross-correlation of the channels then 
sees the common signal and as  one average over multiple spectrums the 
uncorrelated signals average out.  Sounds splendid, but trouble showed up 
on the horizon when they had  trouble getting stable readings from 
measurement to measurement as the  noise starts to reach the thermal 
noise floor. Some measurements where  about 20 dB below the noise floor, 
some where about the noise floor, but  there was a dip in the response.
As one look closer on historic  measurements using cross-correlation it's 
been there for ages, since the  measurement method started to be used. 
Looking closer on it, it looks like  the thermal noise flips from 300 K 
to -300K and the "dip" is where the  noise goes through zero. Oups!

In 2015 there was a similar workshop, at  that workshop Joe Gorin 
contributed an explanation for where the  anti-correlated noise was 
generated. In a Wilkinson splitter, the power is  divided into two ports. 
However, to achieve isolation between the ports, a  resistor of twice the 
impedance is needed, i.e. 100 Ohm. It just happens  that the noise that 
generates is two times the noise of the source, and it  is completely 
anti-correlated, thus subtracting. OK, great, now we know  why it breaks 
this way. What to do about it? At NIST Archita Hati and  Craig Nelson 
where pulling their hair and at the FSM8 conference in  Potsdam, Archita 
presented a poster which was interesting exercise in  failure to solve 
the problem with a whole range of splitters, including a  Wilkinson where 
they out of desperation had pulled the resistor, and still  it was 
problematic. During late evening discussions over wine at FSM8 we  had 
the most interesting discussions. Good teachings where had for  everyone 
involved.

At EFTF 2016 in York, I met with Craig and  Archita to discuss some 
ideas, which they tried and found useful and  presented by Archita at 
IFCS 2016 in New Orleans a month later. My  contribution was to ask about 
what isolation gives us, and it turns out  that lack of isolation causes 
channel noise to back-propagate and reach  the other channel, being now 
correlated noise between the channels and  then acting as correlated 
noise, with a complex response after FFT  depending on the delay between 
the channels. Given that the source noise  pops up on the real axis due 
to equal distance to the channels, insertion  of variable delays allows 
one to steer the vector of the channel noise  onto the imaginary axises 
where it as a secondary effect collapses as they  cancel. Sound great 
huh? Yeah, in theory, but it is hard to balance this  to maintain the 
full property for the length of the full measurement, but  at least some 
attempt on it.

Now, with that back-story it was time  for another workshop on 
cross-correlation at the EFTF-IFCS-2017 in  Besancon. Enrico asked for my 
contribution, so I volunteered to  contribute. We ended up being some 
30-40 people in the room, with people  like Dave Leeson present.

A variety of presentations where made,  illustrating the width of 
different insights. NoiseXT showed a source that  could generated AM and 
PM noise, in hope that it could prove useful in  provoking different 
scenarios and be useful to illustrate AM-to-PM  conversion for instance.
Jason Breibarth of Hollingsworth presented an  array of cases where 
AM-to-PM was evident. Enrico presented an approach to  estimate the 
removed noise and simply add it back. Mike Driscoll discussed  the 
potential of doing a different approach with mixers for higher  amplitude 
level. Sam Stein made some good comments about how their  equipment was 
built and pointed out some difficulties they had ran into,  such as the 
cross-AVAR needed to avoid the flipping sine. Also, the data  as 
presented out for post processing is a different decimation path than  
what is used for internal processing since, well, it was difficult to  
have them so close.

As for myself, I made the point that even with  ideal splitter, isolation 
is broken when noise from channels is reflected  on the source, as some 
sources have far from 

Re: [time-nuts] Cross-correlatiion workshop at EFTF-IFCS-2017

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Here is something of further  interest:
 
 

 
_The impact of thermal energy on cross spectrum PM noise  measurements_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7546809/) 
_Yannick  Gruson_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?searchWithin="Authors":.QT.Yannick%20Gruson.QT.&newsearch=true)
 ; _Vincent  
Giordano_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?searchWithin="Authors":.QT.Vincent%20Giordano.QT.&newsearch=true)
 ; _Ulrich L.  Rohde_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?searchWithin="Authors":.QT.Ulrich
%20L.%20Rohde.QT.&newsearch=true) ; _Enrico  Rubiola_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?searchWithin="Authors":.QT.Enrico%20Rubiola.QT
.&newsearch=true)  
_2016 IEEE International Frequency Control  Symposium (IFCS)_ 
(http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?punumber=7524853)   
Year:  2016



 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 7/22/2017 6:15:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Fellow  time-nuts,

I thought that I should write a few lines about the  EFTF-IFCS, so a good 
start would be the Cross-correlation workshop which  is about addressing 
the complexities of the cross-correlation measurement  and achieving 
stable and proper measurements. This session was curated by  Prof. Enrico 
Rubiola of femtosecond and Craig Nelson of NIST.

OK,  for those that don't know about the issue, let me get a quick 
explanation  here. For a long time cross-correlation have been a 
technique to remove  the internal noise of two, by feeding the source 
into two channels using a  power-splitter, and then each channel add its 
noise which is uncorrelated.  The cross-correlation of the channels then 
sees the common signal and as  one average over multiple spectrums the 
uncorrelated signals average out.  Sounds splendid, but trouble showed up 
on the horizon when they had  trouble getting stable readings from 
measurement to measurement as the  noise starts to reach the thermal 
noise floor. Some measurements where  about 20 dB below the noise floor, 
some where about the noise floor, but  there was a dip in the response.
As one look closer on historic  measurements using cross-correlation it's 
been there for ages, since the  measurement method started to be used. 
Looking closer on it, it looks like  the thermal noise flips from 300 K 
to -300K and the "dip" is where the  noise goes through zero. Oups!

In 2015 there was a similar workshop, at  that workshop Joe Gorin 
contributed an explanation for where the  anti-correlated noise was 
generated. In a Wilkinson splitter, the power is  divided into two ports. 
However, to achieve isolation between the ports, a  resistor of twice the 
impedance is needed, i.e. 100 Ohm. It just happens  that the noise that 
generates is two times the noise of the source, and it  is completely 
anti-correlated, thus subtracting. OK, great, now we know  why it breaks 
this way. What to do about it? At NIST Archita Hati and  Craig Nelson 
where pulling their hair and at the FSM8 conference in  Potsdam, Archita 
presented a poster which was interesting exercise in  failure to solve 
the problem with a whole range of splitters, including a  Wilkinson where 
they out of desperation had pulled the resistor, and still  it was 
problematic. During late evening discussions over wine at FSM8 we  had 
the most interesting discussions. Good teachings where had for  everyone 
involved.

At EFTF 2016 in York, I met with Craig and  Archita to discuss some 
ideas, which they tried and found useful and  presented by Archita at 
IFCS 2016 in New Orleans a month later. My  contribution was to ask about 
what isolation gives us, and it turns out  that lack of isolation causes 
channel noise to back-propagate and reach  the other channel, being now 
correlated noise between the channels and  then acting as correlated 
noise, with a complex response after FFT  depending on the delay between 
the channels. Given that the source noise  pops up on the real axis due 
to equal distance to the channels, insertion  of variable delays allows 
one to steer the vector of the channel noise  onto the imaginary axises 
where it as a secondary effect collapses as they  cancel. Sound great 
huh? Yeah, in theory, but it is hard to balance this  to maintain the 
full property for the length of the full measurement, but  at least some 
attempt on it.

Now, with that back-story it was time  for another workshop on 
cross-correlation at the EFTF-IFCS-2017 in  Besancon. Enrico asked for my 
contribution, so I volunteered to  contribute. We ended up being some 
30-40 people in the room, with people  like Dave Leeson present.

A variety of presentations where made,  illustrating the width of 
different insights. NoiseXT showed a source that  could generated AM and 
PM noise, in hope that it could prove useful in  provoking different 
scenarios and be useful to illustrate AM-to-PM  conversion for instance.
Jason Breibarth of Hollings

Re: [time-nuts] Ph.D. and Postdoc Positions at Max-Planck Institute for Infor...

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

It must be almost 2 PM in the morning ! Congratulations , can I help ?good  
luck , Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 7/1/2017 7:52:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
att...@kinali.ch writes:

Moin  moin,

Our group (where I am doing my PhD) is currently looking for PhD  or Postdoc
candidates. Our research spans an extremely wide area from  math/theoretical
computer science to low noise electronics and ASICs. One  of our main focus
is fault-tolerant clock synchronization in the low ps  level. We would
like to especially encourage people with a solid background  in
electrical/electronics engineering to apply. Even more so, if you  know
how to deal with precision time and frequency generation and/or  
measurement. 

On a personal note: because our research is on such a  wide field, you
are free to pursue your own research and are encouraged to  do so, as
long as it fits somehow within the general topic (which is not  hard at 
all).

If you have questions, feel free to contact either  Christoph or me
directly.

Attila Kinali

Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:50:46 +0200
From: Christoph  Lenzen 
Subject: Ph.D. and Postdoc Positions  at MPI for Informatics, Saarbrücken, 
Germany

The Theory of Distributed  and Embedded Systems  group
(https://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/departments/algorithms-complexity/research/theor
y-of-distributed-and-embedded-systems/
)  in the Department for Algorithms & Complexity of the MPI  for
Informatics invites Ph.D. and Postdoc applications. Our research  spans
a broad range. At one end of the spectrum, we are interested in  all
aspects of the theory of distributed systems. At the other end,  we
apply these principles in the development of fault-tolerant  hardware,
including FPGA and analog/mixed-signal ASIC prototypes.  Accordingly, we
welcome all applicants with a background in computer  science,
electrical engineering, mathematics, computer engineering, or  related
fields.

Successful applicants will take part in an ERC  Starting Grant project,
which has the ambitious goal of devising highly  robust, yet efficient
systems that do not rely on centralized clocking  methods. The teaching
load is low and there is room to explore other  research avenues;
especially postdocs are encouraged to follow their own  research agenda
next to the ERC project.

For informal inquiries as  well as filing an application, please send me
an email  (clen...@mpi-inf.mpg.de). A typical application should contain
your CV,  publication list, a brief statement (up to about one page) of
your  motivation and research interests, and your two most  interesting
publications (links suffice).

The Max Planck Society is  committed to employing more individuals with
disabilities and expressly  welcomes these to apply. The Max Planck
Society seeks to increase the  percentage of women in the areas where
they are underrepresented and  expressly encourages these to apply.

-- 
It is upon moral qualities  that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological  sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that  foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil  Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP8640

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Yes I need one for 1 day, not to keep
 
 
In a message dated 6/7/2017 3:19:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
scmcgr...@gmail.com writes:

Ulrich

I have an operational 8640 

Content by  Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Jun 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Dave Daniel   wrote:
> 
> There is, or was, a member of  the Yahoo hp_agilent forum who was making 
metal replacement gears for the  HP8640. I believe several members replaced 
the plastic gears with the new  metal ones and were able to bring their 
instruments back to life.
>  
> DaveD
> 
>> On 6/7/2017 8:56 AM, Bert Kehren via  time-nuts wrote:
>> I think it will be difficult to find a well  working 8640, plastic gears
>> will have by now totally  disintegrated. What part of it do you need, I 
may
>> have   something left.
>> Bert Kehren
>>In a message  dated 6/6/2017 9:06:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>  time-nuts@febo.com writes:
>> 
>> Hi , I  am trying to  find an well working  HP 8640 to do some   
measurements
>>  like SSB  FM and AM noise.
>>  
>> Who can help ?  73 de Ulrich  N1UL
>>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP8640

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

yes, I need it for about 1 day.. Thanks, Ulrich 1UL
 
 
In a message dated 6/6/2017 9:37:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
brent.ev...@gmail.com writes:

Seems a bit sacrilegious no?  


Just kidding - wish I had another myself..


Brent
KD4VMM


On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 9:05 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts  
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) > wrote:

Hi  , I am trying to find an well working  HP 8640 to do some   measurements
like SSB  FM and AM noise.

Who can help ?   73 de Ulrich  N1UL
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Re: [time-nuts] HP8640

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Hi , I am trying to find an well working  HP 8640 to do some  measurements 
like SSB  FM and AM noise.
 
Who can help ?  73 de Ulrich N1UL 
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Re: [time-nuts] Optimal oscillator topology for diffrent frequency range

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

2 points: 
 
First I do not get copies of my own mail... strange  .
 
Second a complete treatment including the results is in 
 
 
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7546729/ 
These  results are superior  to other publication , and the paper is 
complete.  Probably only very few do a complete literature search. The Disco 
oscillator,  while  applaudable (for its time ) is not used commercially in any 
product  . 
73 de  Ulrich N1UL 
 
 
In a message dated 2/6/2017 11:00:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dk...@arcor.de writes:

Am 06.02.2017 um  14:08 schrieb Richard (Rick) Karlquist:
> Agreed, for low phase noise  FLOOR, it is imperative to
> take the signal out through the  crystal.  However, for
> close in noise (say ADEV at t=1), the  Driscoll has
> worked well for me.  I have been able to reach  ADEV
> = 10^-11 at 100 MHz at using suitable resonators.
>
>  Rick

But one won't be able to use the power right out of the  crystal
for anything. So it will have to be amplified &  buffered.

If you can do that without lifting the noise floor,  then
you've got to ask yourself one question  :-)

Why don't I  use that little wonder for the sustaining amplifier, too?

And - why do  I divide the precious crystal power between the 2
amplifiers at the  location where it hurts most: where the level is 
smallest?

When you  compare the Driscoll and the Burgoon (sp??) output
coupling through the  crystal, you see it is exactly the same.
One might even apply the current  step up trick from Burgoon.

The current through the drains/collectors  is enforced by the
crystal, operating into a near-short. Off-resonance the  transistor
has complete negative feedback and no gain.

On the output  side of the buffer, losing a dB or two for sustaining
the oscillation does  not hurt.


A thing I do not like about the typical Colpitts is that  it is never
on the series resonance of the crystal. That means that
the  feedback divider is part of the resonance which increases
the number of  critical parts.

In the Driscoll, the sustaining feedback is quite a  wideband thing
and mostly decoupled from the sharp crystal  resonance.


regards, Gerhard, DK4XP



>
> On  2/6/2017 4:35 AM, ka2...@aol.com wrote:
>> Not quiet, using the  crystal also as filter gives much better numbers 
>>  ,
>> 73 de Ulrich N1UL
>>
>> In a message dated  2/6/2017 7:30:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> rich...@karlquist.com  writes:
>>
>> I would say the 2 stage  "Driscoll" oscillator is the
>> way to go.  I  have had good luck with it up to 100 MHz.
>> The  first stage has the crystal in series with the
>>  emitter, but is otherwise a grounded emitter stage.
>>   The second stage is in cascode as a grounded  base.
>> The important operating condition is that  only
>> the second stage limits.  First  publications on
>> it were in the early 1970's  (search Michael Driscoll).
>>
>> Rick  Karlquist N6RK  

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Re: [time-nuts] Optimal oscillator topology for diffrent frequency range

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

That is the pragmatic deflection reply . but essentially you are  
correct 
 
 
In a message dated 2/6/2017 7:57:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi

One could easily spend years answering this sort of  question. Several 
people on the 
list *have* done so. Two of them have  already tossed up answers. 

What are you trying to do?

What is  your definition of “low”? 

How well equipped are you to test this sort  of thing? 

How much tweaking are you willing to do?

Do you have  a source of (custom) low noise crystals?

Lots of questions and lots of  twists and turns in the answers as a result. 

Bob

> On Feb 6,  2017, at 4:06 AM, Yeti Yetos  wrote:
>  
> Good morning,
> What's the optimal  oscillator topology  for low phase noise (low 
frequency
> noise and phase noise floor)  for  25Mhz/50Mhz/100Mhz frequency  range.?
> 
> Best  regards, Rafal
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Re: [time-nuts] Optimal oscillator topology for diffrent frequency range

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Not quiet, using the crystal also as filter gives much better numbers  ,
73 de Ulrich N1UL 
 
 
In a message dated 2/6/2017 7:30:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

I would  say the 2 stage "Driscoll" oscillator is the
way to go.  I have had  good luck with it up to 100 MHz.
The first stage has the crystal in series  with the
emitter, but is otherwise a grounded emitter stage.
The second  stage is in cascode as a grounded base.
The important operating condition  is that only
the second stage limits.  First publications on
it  were in the early 1970's (search Michael Driscoll).

Rick Karlquist  N6RK

On 2/6/2017 1:06 AM, Yeti Yetos wrote:
> Good  morning,
> What's the optimal  oscillator topology for low phase  noise (low 
frequency
> noise and phase noise floor) for   25Mhz/50Mhz/100Mhz frequency  range.?
>
> Best regards,  Rafal
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Re: [time-nuts] Optimal oscillator topology for diffrent frequency range

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

A optimized Colpitts circuit 
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 2/6/2017 5:30:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rtoporow...@gmail.com writes:

Good  morning,
What's the optimal  oscillator topology for low phase noise  (low frequency
noise and phase noise floor) for  25Mhz/50Mhz/100Mhz  frequency  range.?

Best regards,  Rafal
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Re: [time-nuts] Syntesizer Book Update

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Happy holidays to all. If you have some time and are interested  I am  
still looking for specialized help to give my book 
 
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471520195.html
 
a new life as I drifted in to Meta Material  Based Structure based  Signals 
Sources.
 
The key missing parts are an in depth treatment of Arbitrary Waveform  
Generation (in base band) , precision I-Q modulation  (modulator/demodulator) 
and all  resulting in a Vector Signal Generation  architecture .  
 
Modern Synthesizer based Signal Sources use these technologies .
 
Who has the time, will put up the sleeves and will work with me ?
 
Thanks,  73 de Ulrich, N1UL 
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Re: [time-nuts] Switching regulator 12 > 4 V (3.3)

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks, I came too late into this discussion, yes the preferred voltage is  
3.3 V, but if decoupled by a emitter follower , maybe 4 V is a good  choice.
 
Can you please copy /past me the info?  Thanks Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 12/4/2016 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jim...@earthlink.net writes:

On  12/4/16 11:46 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
> Who has a good  recommendation for a switching power supply circuit, 12V 
DC
> in, 4 V/  500mA out , Exactly 3.3 for IC voltage.
>
do you need 4V or  3.3V?

I'd start with one of the modular parts we've been  discussing.  They 
typically have 9-18V input range and whatever you  want out.

Since I have the Mouser search page up, P78A03-0500 is $3.71  in qty 1, 
3.3V out @ 0.5A, 6-28V in.  ABout 85%  efficient
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Re: [time-nuts] Switching regulator 12 > 4 V (3.3)

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Who has a good recommendation for a switching power supply circuit, 12V DC  
in, 4 V/ 500mA out , Exactly 3.3 for IC voltage.
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rohde & Schwarz XSD 2.5 MHz crystal gone bad?

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://www.classicbroadcast.de/downloads/rohde_XSD.pdf
 
 
Greetings,
 
I am surprised that this is the 2.5 MHz  (XSD)and not the new 5 Mhz  
crystal. XSD2 ) Bernd Neubig , on distribution always has a wealth of  
information 
and part. 
 
There was a later R&S ( XSD 2 )  5 MHz frequency standard,  interchangeable 
with the XSRM Rb standard..
 
I looked at the Internet but did not find a surplus one . Sorry , Ulrich  
Rohde  N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 11/20/2016 7:05:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
m...@rentapacs.de writes:

Hi  there,

I'm new to this list and have some interest in quartz crystal  and
rubidium oscillators - GPS, NTP, PPS and "clock watching" in general  ;-)

I snatched an R&S XSD frequency standard accompanied by an XKE  frequency
controller. Found the manuals on KO4BB's site (Thanks a lot for  that!
BTW there's a slight mix-up of pages in that some of the XKE pages  have
found their way into the XSD manual).

My initial hope of a  quick and easy restoration project faded a bit when
I looked at the XSD  output frequency after heating up the oven. It was
off by about -1 * 10-5  and after cranking the fine tuning for some time
and having another look at  the specs I realized that the frequency was
too far off to be dialed in by  the fine tuning which only covers about
+/- 2 * 10-7.

Next step was  to take apart the oven and check series capacitor,
oscillator and the  crystal itself. I found that even the coarse
adjustment range of the  cylindrical series capacitor (40 - 110 pF) would
not allow to pull the  crystal to it's specified frequency. When
replacing the series cap by a  ceramic and lowering the value to just
before the oscillation breaks down  (about 10 pF) I managed to set the
oscillator frequency offset to   +2.5 * 10-6 at room temperature. But
even this will not suffice when taking  into account that the frequency
will drop by a few parts in 10-5 (cf. XSD  manual) when the oven heats up
to its operating temperature. I also checked  some of the components on
the oscillator PCB which might have an influence  on frequency but could
not find any fault.

The crystal itself is a  disk of about 30 mm diameter mounted in a sealed
glass cylinder of about 38  mm dia. and 43 mm height. There is no socket
just 2 bare wires.. It does  not show any visual signs of damage.
According to a reference given in the  R&S XSD manual the crystal's
construction follows a publication from  A.W. Warner "Design and
Performance of Ultraprecise 2.5-mc Quartz Crystal  Units" in Vol 39,
Issue 5 of Bell Labs Technical Journal (Sept. 1960).  According to that
it is an AT-cut 5th overtone design.

Now my  questions:

a) Considering that this gear is about 50 years old, a  "crystal gone
bad" situation shouldn't be that much of a surprise,  right?  But could
there be any other cause of the "huge" frequency  offset besides a bad
crystal? I would very much appreciate any idea that I  could try to get
this baby back on spec.

b) if nothing else helps:  Could any of you give me a hint about who
might be able to supply a spare  crystal? I tried my directly reachable
contacts but unfortunately to no  avail so far. Please consider that
similar crystals might also have found  their way into other
manufacturer's constructions from that era - Sulzer,  Racal, HP ... you
name it ...

Many thanks in advance!

Best  regards ... Michael  U.
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

In a message dated 10/30/2016 6:07:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
davidwh...@gmail.com writes:

That is  always the danger when using parts for characteristics not
guaranteed in  the specifications.
YES



Sometimes a process just becomes obsolete necessitation new  parts to
be fabricated on a new process.  Or a process may have  enough
variation that some lots or parts meet unguaranteed specifications  and
others do not.  Occasionally a minor update is made to correct  a
problem or improve yield that significantly changes  unguaranteed
specifications.
 This was not the case with Infinion. They moved the production from  
Germany to Austria and did change the process



And of course the company could be bought resulting in the  process or
parts you are relying on being  discontinued. 

That is the reason why I / we will design or own transistors as other also  
do. There is a possibility that some oscillator producers will get into 
trouble  .. This can happen with the crystals too 

 I am currently worrying
about this with Linear Technology  being bought by Analog Devices and
NXP being bought by Qualcomm.  In  the case of Qualcomm, I cannot see
them being in the discrete parts  business.

As far as testing, nobody likes to test for noise or low  leakage for
that matter.  Test time costs money and low frequency  noise testing
especially takes a lot of time.  The example I like to  use for this is
the LMC6081 ($0.83) and LMC6001 ($5.76) operational  amplifiers; the
later is identical to the former except it spends a lot  more time on
the tester to guarantee its lower input bias current.   Common small
signal transistors are usually specified with 50 or 100  nanoamps of
leakage even though it is often 1000s of times lower because  that is
as good as the automatic testers can do  quickly.

 
I use special  set of test oscillators at different  frequencies  with 
rivets to connect the transistors. Before I forget  this, the same is valid for 
diodes getting noisier. I have arranged to have a  custom diode developed 
for us, in a foundry,   Important point !
 
The R&S FSWP signal analyzer takes only  few seconds to  test  all 



On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:06:52 -0400, you wrote:

>It has  to do with the manufacturing process and a reduction in cost. I 
can   
>not speak for other companies, Infinion "killed" the good phase  noise   
>performance but the large signal noise is not  specified in the data sheet 
so  
>they are legally   "clean"
> 
>>In a message dated 10/30/2016 4:56:38 P.M. Eastern  Daylight Time,  
>>davidwh...@gmail.com  writes:
>>
>>You  mentioned suitable transistor  availablity being an increasing
>>problem and I  have run across  that myself.  Do you expect Qualcomm's
>>aquisition of  NXP  to have an impact?
>>
>>NXP is currently the best source I  have for fast  complementary pairs
>>or even just fast  PNPs.
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

It has to do with the manufacturing process and a reduction in cost. I can  
not speak for other companies, Infinion "killed" the good phase noise   
performance but the large signal noise is not specified in the data sheet so  
they are legally  "clean"
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2016 4:56:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
davidwh...@gmail.com writes:

You  mentioned suitable transistor availablity being an increasing
problem and I  have run across that myself.  Do you expect Qualcomm's
aquisition of  NXP to have an impact?

NXP is currently the best source I have for fast  complementary pairs
or even just fast PNPs.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016  16:06:19 -0400, you wrote:

>Absolutely ! But not with 2N3904 but  rather with a 
>  
>http://cache.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BFG135.pdf?pspll=1
>  
>>In a message dated 10/30/2016 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,  
>>scott.j.sto...@gmail.com  writes:
>>
>>Does your text provide a good discussion of the  implications of 
operating  
>>with large  signals?
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I typically buy a full box ( 1000) , ask them what they consider as a  
replacement ...
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2016 4:59:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes:

>  http://cache.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BFG135.pdf?pspll=1

The usual  suppliers say that it's no longer available.  What do you 
use/suggest  these days?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate  spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Absolutely ! But not with 2N3904 but rather with a 
 
http://cache.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BFG135.pdf?pspll=1
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2016 3:27:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
scott.j.sto...@gmail.com writes:



Does your text provide a good discussion of the implications of operating  
with large signals?

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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Well, i guess both statements  are correct.
 
Most of us  (Poddar and I ), and the leading Crystal Oscillator  houses ( 
Axtal, Morion and Wenzel ) and others  know the limits  imposed by the 
crystal and the semiconductor. I have several patents how to do  it better 
(noise 
canceling technique) but we are victims of the crystal  noise  (Operating Q 
at 100 MHz  about 70 000) and the transistors  which are getting worse  as 
the production  is aimed towards more  profit 
 
The low aging 10 MHz oscillators use 50uW at most  in the  crystal, phase 
noise not much better then -160 dB down,and the locked 100, 120,  125 and 128 
MHz Crystal oscillators with  calculated phase noise approaching -190 dBm.
 
 
The result will be to have  at lest  three custom made  transistors up to 
100 Ghz and low flicker noise.
 
One transistor for 150 MHz Oscillators, then one  400 to 2000 MHz  (SAW) 
and then finally  5000 to 40 Ghz (DRO).
 
Here you need up to 18 dBm output power, KF < 10E-10, and almost 1 W +  
dissipation .
 
The low noise large signal  AM/PM conversion circuits are not yet  fully 
understood . I am supervising 3 PhD's, one on crystal oscillators , one on  
Meta Material Structure DRO's and one on power amplifier with an additive  
noise at -170 down  relative  to the large signal input.  
 
So there is money and problems from 400 MHz to 40 Ghz, not easy ...
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/30/2016 11:50:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
att...@kinali.ch writes:


That's something that has been bothering me lately: Most of  your 
publications are about the noise in UHF and GHz applications,  hardly
any for the area where most of time metrology happens: at 10MHz and  100MHz.

Is this because the sub-100MHz range oscillators are a solved  problem
and hit the physical limits of what noise optimization can do? Or  is
it because there is more money to be made in the >100MHz  range?

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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Some references, e-mail addresses do not work, see Ref. 8, I hate  this
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colpitts_oscillator
 
7  S. Sarkar, S. Sarkar, B. C.  Sarkar. _"Nonlinear Dynamics of a BJT Based 
Colpitts Oscillator with Tunable  Bias Current"_ 
(http://www.ijeat.org/attachments/File/v2i5/E1662062513.pdf) . IJEAT _ISSN_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number)  
_2249-8958_ 
(https://www.worldcat.org/search?fq=x0:jrnl&q=n2:2249-8958) , Volume-2, 
Issue-5, June 2013. p. 1.
 
73 de Ulrich
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://read.pudn.com/downloads84/sourcecode/comm/322249/pll_matlab[1]/pll_ma
tlab/pll2/colpitts.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I think "treatment " is the word of  choice but we all know what is meant .
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/29/2016 8:28:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
preilley_...@comcast.net writes:

Please  don't take this wrong but your use of the word "treaty" is wrong.
I think  you mean "treatise".

Pete.

On 10/29/2016 8:05 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> Hoi Ulrich,
>
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:56:53  -0400
> KA2WEU--- via time-nuts   wrote:
>
>> The Parzen book was on my list (Amazon ), I find  these books,  including
>> Rhea's book practically useless as  they do not provide the necessary  
non
>> -linear noise  analysis, and do not have real live examples with test 
data.
>>  Cerda's "Understanding Quartz Crystals and Oscillators book I have not  
 seen.
> You don't have to look then. There are very few people who  actually 
looked
> at the noise in oscillator circuits and tried to  optimize it. You and
> Poddar are definitely those who wrote most about  it. Then comes probably
> Enrico. One can find a paper here and there  analysing different noise
> sources, but never a complete  treaty.
>
> The lack of noise/non-linear analysis does not mean  you cannot learn
> from those books, though. They are good books to  learn from on how to
> build an oscillator. Once that is achieved, one  can learn how to make
> it low noise by reading your books  :-)
>
>  Attila  Kinali
>

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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good Morning 
 
The oscillator market is extremely completive and a few dB can easily make  
a buy or not decission.It is not the non liner spice type analysis but the  
non-linear noise analysis that makes the difference. I agree SPICE was 
never  meant for non linear noise.
 
There is a difference if you "just build" on oscillator or want to know  
where the limits of physics are . Rhea made the circuits more transparent  but 
I find
 
 Everard's  "Fundamentals of RF Circuit Design: with Low Noise  
Oscillators".
 
infinitely better. These are personal opinions , not gospel . 
 
At the end of the day the winner is the one with the best understanding and 
 the best products, no doubt about it .
 
73 de Ulrich N1UL 




In a message dated 10/30/2016 12:29:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
dk...@arcor.de writes:

Am  30.10.2016 um 01:56 schrieb KA2WEU--- via time-nuts:
> The Parzen book  was on my list (Amazon ), I find these books,  including
> Rhea's  book practically useless as they do not provide the necessary   
non
> -linear noise analysis, and do not have real live examples with  test 
data.
> Cerda's "Understanding Quartz Crystals and Oscillators book  I have not  
seen.
>   
> 73 de Ulrich
I really  do not like to see Rhea dissed this way. Yes, nonlinear sim may 
buy  another dB or two,
but in the end one has to stay at least somewhat linear,  lest one builds 
an 1/f upconverter.
(and Harbec does  nonlinear.)

Others don't even have their linear basics complete;  everybody talks 
loop gain but
nobody shows how you get from your  network analyzer to the correct 
answer of a
circuit whose output is  terminated with its own input and whose input is 
terminated
with its  own output. It took Rhea to present that on page 3 or so.

And I see a  lot of examples compared to actual measurements, and the
Genesys design  kits simply work. In fact, Rhea's Genesys is the one 
simulator  that
saved me most of the time, and that includes LTspice, which says a  lot.

He more or less forced Agilent to buy a competitor from the  market, while
they had their own ADS. (which tries to be everybody's  darling, nothing it
can't do, but it is too complicated if you do not use  it every day.)
>
>> I found Frerking's "Crystal Oscillator  Design and  Temperature
> Compensation"
>> to be a  fruitful read. It's free on the  archive,
>>
>  
https://archive.org/details/CrystalOscillatorDesignTemperatureCompensation   .

Silly me, I've bought it. But his book on digital radio is much  better.


vy 73 de Gerhard,  DK4XP
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

The Parzen book was on my list (Amazon ), I find these books,  including 
Rhea's book practically useless as they do not provide the necessary  non 
-linear noise analysis, and do not have real live examples with test data.  
Cerda's "Understanding Quartz Crystals and Oscillators book I have not  seen.
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/29/2016 7:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
att...@kinali.ch writes:

On Sat,  29 Oct 2016 15:38:33 -0400
Scott Stobbe   wrote:

> I found Frerking's "Crystal Oscillator Design and  Temperature 
Compensation"
> to be a fruitful read. It's free on the  archive,
>  
https://archive.org/details/CrystalOscillatorDesignTemperatureCompensation  .
> 
> Are there any recommendations for one or more book(s) that  are definitely
> worth skimming through, or reading?

Depends for  what. If you are looking for books on crystal oscillators
and how to build  them, I would recommend Parzen's book "Design of
Crystal and Other Harmonic  Oscillators". It's probably the most complete
treaty I have seen (though i  have not completely read it). Rhea's last
book "Discrete Oscillator Design"  is definetly also worth a look and
easier written than Parzen's book, but  much less complete. Another book
worth considering, though a bit expensiv  IMHO, is Cerda's "Understanding
Quartz Crystals and Oscillators". Another  current book is Everard's
"Fundamentals of RF Circuit Design: with Low  Noise Oscillators".
If you are interested in harmonic oscillators in  general, then a look
at Ulrich's and Poddar's book "The Design of Modern  Microwave Oscillators
for Wireless Applications" is definitely worth a  look. Quite a bit of
it is also applicable to quartz oscillators and it  contains together with
"A New and Efficient Method of Designing Low Noise  Microwave  Oscillators"
(http://synergymwave.com/Articles/a-new-efficient-method-of-designing-low-no
ise-microwave-oscillators.pdf)  the most on how to get oscillator noise
down.


If you have a IEEE  account, you can get the older of these books
(and a few othersothers) from  the UFFC website:  
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/publications/books/index.asp


Attila Kinali

-- 
Malek's  Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most  complicated  way.
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Re: [time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

On what topic ? older book miss the phase noise issue, most useful things  
are in papers, look at the references 
 
*   Ulrich L. Rohde, Ajay K. Poddar, Georg Böck  "The Design of Modern 
Microwave Oscillators for Wireless Applications ", John  Wiley & Sons, New 
York, NY, May, 2005, _ISBN  0-471-72342-8_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0471723428) . 
*   George Vendelin, Anthony M. Pavio, Ulrich L.  Rohde " Microwave 
Circuit Design Using Linear and Nonlinear Techniques ", John  Wiley & Sons, New 
York, NY, May, 2005, _ISBN  0-471-41479-4_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0471414794) . 
*   Ulrich L. Rohde, Anisha M. Apte 
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7506417/ Everything You Always Wanted to 
Know  About Colpitts Oscillators 
[Applications Note] 
*   Anisha M. Apte; Ajay K. Poddar; Ulrich L.  Rohde; Enrico Rubiola, 
Colpitts oscillator: A new criterion of energy saving  for high performance 
signal sources 2016 IEEE International Frequency Control  Symposium (IFCS)
 
Not because my name is  there but we tried to list ALL relevant literature, 
also 
 
https://www.amazon.com/Design-Crystal-Other-Harmonic-Oscillators/dp/04710881
96
 
is useful and look at 
 
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/home.jsp   .
 
In the last 10 years Dr. Poddar and I have  done the most oscillator and 
phase noise work..Look us up at Xplore
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/29/2016 3:38:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
scott.j.sto...@gmail.com writes:

I found Frerking's "Crystal Oscillator Design and Temperature  
Compensation" to be a fruitful read. It's free on the archive, 
https://archive.org/details/CrystalOscillatorDesignTemperatureCompensation  .  


Are there any recommendations for one or more book(s) that are definitely  
worth skimming through, or reading?


On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:12 PM, KA2WEU--- via  time-nuts 
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) > wrote:

Some  useful literature

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/https://en._ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_noise) 


_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/https://en.wikipedi_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colpitts_oscillator) 

Some  links seem not to work   73 de  Ulrich

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[time-nuts] our favorite topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Some useful literature
   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_noise
 
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colpitts_oscillator
 
Some links seem not to work   73 de Ulrich 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] TimeLab

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

You guys never give up, happy Sunday 
 
 
In a message dated 10/9/2016 2:46:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.se writes:

Hi,

Agree. However, one need to make sure that the counter  triggering never 
flukes a measurement.

There is a few things  missing to make it work much much better.

Cheers,
Magnus

On  10/09/2016 08:35 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> I understand  the “keep it simple” concept, even if I rarely practice it 
:)
>
>  I would indeed like to get time tagging of phase measurements better  
integrated with some of these
> tools. The whole “was that a dropout in  the signal or a counter issue” 
thing is rarely handled in a
> very good  fashion. It also just happens to be a pretty good addition to 
a comb  measurement system
> as well.
>
>  Bob
>
>
>> On Oct 9, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Magnus Danielson  
 wrote:
>>
>> Hi  Bob,
>>
>> There is so many things that could be done  differently if we started 
with a clean sheet. I was intentionally not going  down that road but more 
thinking about practical setups with the stuff we  have, or very small 
additions.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  Magnus
>>
>> On 10/09/2016 07:26 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>>
  On Oct 9, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Magnus Danielson  
  wrote:

 Hi Bob and  Bob,

 This is why the two-counter setup  is so messy, you have to have 
software that will sync up and query them  alternatively. You also need to make 
sure you get the counters to trigger.  Besides, another issue is that 
difference in the two counters read-outs will  cause a false signal, so 
calibration 
and compensation becomes important to  remove that.
>>>
>>> That’s why I believe the time  tagger + counter is the better solution 
rather than multiple counters. Let it  give you the global information and 
then use it to sort out what you see from  the counter. Yes, a full blown 
multi channel time tagger with picosecond  resolution would be better still. 
That’s going to cost more than  $5….
>>>
>>>  Bob
>>>

 Using a picket  fence type of triggering approach is cheaper and 
easier to maintain. Some mild  software support for the processing and it will 
work like a charm. Calibration  for true zero offset is needed, but relatively 
easy to implement, you want  that anyway.

  Cheers,
 Magnus

 On  10/09/2016 07:02 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
> Hi  Bob,
> I had actually thought about making a server for  the Prologix 
Ethernet adapters, but I gave up when I considered the issue of  two processes 
trying to claim the same device.  I've experimented with  using a C program to 
capture multiple GPIB ports to a live file.  But, I  can't figure out how to 
get the "live" part to work when running Timelab on a  Windows client in a 
Virtual Box under a Linux server that is collecting the  data.  I think 
Santa may have to bring me another GPIB adapter this  Christmas.
>
>  Bob
>  -
>  AE6RV.com
>
> GFS GPSDO  list:
>  groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>
>   From: Bob Camp 
> To:  Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and 
frequency  measurement 
> Sent: Sunday,  October 9, 2016 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  TimeLab
>
>  Hi
>
>> On Oct 9, 2016, at  12:27 PM, Bob Stewart   wrote:
>>
>> Hi  Bob,
>> Is it actually possible to address two  devices on one GPIB adapter 
with Timelab?  I admit to not reading the  documentation carefully, but I've 
not been able to do this directly.  The  only way I could think of doing it 
was to use some software to send the data  to a file and then use Timelab 
to pull the data from the file.  Maybe NI  software allows you to configure  
this?
>
> That was my poorly  stated point :) … you would have to add the 
ability to identify and address  multiple devices.
>
>  Bob
>
>>
>>  Bob
>>  -
>>  AE6RV.com
>>
>> GFS GPSDO  list:
>>  groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>>
>>   From: Bob Camp 
>>  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  

>> Sent: Sunday, October  9, 2016 8:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  TimeLab
>>
>>  Hi
>>
>> Given that *some*  of us have more than errr … one counter  :)
>>
>> There are several  setups that involve two or three counters to 
resolve some of these issues.  Having
>> multiple serial ports or multiple devices  on a GPIB isn’t that big 
a problem. Addressing multiple  devices
>> (setting up the addresses in TimeLab) is  an added step. Coming up 
with standard setups would be  the
>> first step. Getting them documented to the  degree that they could 
be run without a lot of hassle would  be
>> the next  step.
>>
>> Another fairly  simple addition (rather than a full blown counter) 
would be some sort of MCU  to ti

Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise testing

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

To all :

I have all the necessary high end phase noise test  SYTEM up to 50 Ghz here 
at 07457 NJ , if any one needs measurement help , 73 de  Ulrich , N1UL

Sent from my iPhone



xxx
 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I can not find the item on EBAY , Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/3/2016 11:51:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jn6...@gmail.com writes:

According to my -hp- catalogs it was available only in rack-mount  form, not
in a cabinet. That suggests it was being marketed to a specific  small group
so it may indeed have been manufactured in small  quantities.

Jeremy


On Monday, October 3, 2016, Magnus  Danielson 
wrote:

> Since you  force-feed it 100 KC at the back, no crystal would be needed.
>
>  Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 10/03/2016 04:57 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>
>> Also notice the missing something on the far right  that may have been 
some
>> xtal or something.
>> I went to  look for a manual to see what it was. No luck though the 
manual
>>  may be out there.
>> I would say its rare, but the price is going to  most likely go up 
because
>> it is a bid.
>> Great winter  project but not worth a lot of $ to me at least. Good luck 
to
>>  whoever gets it.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>>  WB8TSL
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Bob Camp   wrote:
>>
>>  Hi
>>>
>>> Rare is indeed a relative term. I would  certainly call it rare, but
>>> others
>>> might  not.
>>> You likely would be the only person on your block who has  one :)
>>>
>>> In the picture of the innards you can  see a number of fine old wet slug
>>> tantalum
>>>  capacitors. One even appears to have goo leaking out of it. I’d plan  
on
>>> having a
>>> lot of fun tracking down this or  that part to get it working reliably.
>>>
>>> On Oct  3, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Jeremy Nichols   wrote:

 I saw that. Is it really rare  or just hype by the luster?

  Jeremy

 On Monday, October 3, 2016,  Bert Kehren via time-nuts <

>>>  time-nuts@febo.com>
>>>
  wrote:

 There  is a rare HP clock  on ebay for the collectors among us. I am to
>  old.
>
> RARE  HP H20 115BR  FREQUENCY DIVIDER & DIGITAL CLOCK STANDARD  
VINTAGE
>
  TEST
>>>

> Bert   Kehren
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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

what is the link ?
 
 
In a message dated 10/3/2016 10:34:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
jn6...@gmail.com writes:

I saw  that. Is it really rare or just hype by the luster?

Jeremy

On  Monday, October 3, 2016, Bert Kehren via time-nuts  
wrote:

> There  is a rare HP  clock on ebay for the collectors among us. I am to
>  old.
>
> RARE  HP H20 115BR FREQUENCY DIVIDER & DIGITAL  CLOCK STANDARD VINTAGE  
TEST
>
> Bert  Kehren
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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO - probably a stupid question.

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

There are no (rarely maybe ) stupid questions, mostly silly answers 
 
 
In a message dated 8/17/2016 5:03:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
elfchief-timen...@lupine.org writes:

Wouldn't  you also not be able to actually sync to the individual chips, 
since you  can't really see the start of any given chip so much as you 
just see the  correlation over larger sections of the stream? Plus you'd 
have to track  only one SV at a time (right? Since I doubt the edges of 
every chip are  perfectly aligned across all SVs even under the best 
conditions), so  things like brief multipath excursions or even 
atmospheric/ionospheric  fluctuations would push you off by a bit as well...

(which is why, of  course, you have the long control loop that GPSDOs  use)

-j


On 2016-08-17 11:41 , Didier Juges wrote:
> In  fact, you do not want to "update the crystal one million  
times/second".
> The whole point of a GPSDO is to combine the excellent  short term 
stability
> of the crystal with the excellent long term  stability of the GPS signal. 
If
> you update the crystal in real time  from the GPS data, you do not need 
the
> crystal...
> The control  loop of GPSDOs usually have an effective bandwidth measured 
in
> minutes  or even hours in the case of rubidium oscillators.
>
>
> On  Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Peter Reilley  

> wrote:
>
>> You can  get crystal oscillators that have a frequency control signal and
>>  are more
>> stable than the run of the mill oscillators.Changing the GPS 
oscillator
>> would
>> require modifying a  very tightly populated circuit board.   Perhaps not
>>  possible.
>>
>> What about some of the SDR (software defined  radio) projects that aim to
>> implement GPS  functionality?   If you used the GPS chipping rate  (1.023
>> MHz)
>> to dicipline the 10 MHz oscillator then  you are less sensitive to 
crystal
>> instabilities.
>> You  are updating the crystal one million times a second rather than  
once
>> per second.
>> This is assuming that the chipping  rate of the transmitter is just as 
good
>> as the
>> 1 PPS  signal.   This info from here;
>>  https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog862/node/1753
>> and  here;
>>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals
>>
>> Even using  the 50 bits/sec data rate of the GPS signal would allow
>> updating  the
>> GPSDO faster than the 1 PPS signal.
>>
>>  Pete.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

-177dBm /Hz at 300 deg  SSB phase noise is correct, not because AM/  FM but 
Single Sideband Energy .
In my last QEX paper I showed the measured AM and FM levels and how to  
calculate them.
 
73 de Ulrich 
 

xx
 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2016 9:00:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mfe...@eozinc.com writes:

That is  interesting. We always used -174 and not -177 as it was concluded 
that at  those low levels AM and PM noise are not discernible, so, the total 
noise  density per Hz was -174. This must be relatively new since I worked 
in  industry. We had a bunch of PhDs from Lincoln helping as well and they 
always  used -174. This sounds like one of those instrument manufacturers 
gimmick to  make the numbers look better :). 

Your last statement is why I started  to question the claims initially. - 
Mike 

Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89  Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831  cell


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles
Sent: Thursday,  August 11, 2016 7:57 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency  measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal  oscillator 
measurements

-177 = the -174 dBm/Hz SSB thermal noise floor  at 25C, less 3 dB to 
account for the usual assumption that half of it is AM,  half PM.   

dBm/Hz is obviously equivalent to dBc/Hz for a 0  dBm carrier.  

Anyone who claims to measure noise in a 1 Hz  bandwidth below -177 dBm/Hz 
at room temperature is either doing something  wrong somewhere, or doing 
something amazing somewhere.

-- john,  KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

> -Original Message-
> From:  time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike 
>  Feher
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 4:15 PM
> To: 'Discussion  of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  State of the art of crystal oscillator 
> measurements
> 
>  That is why I asked what the Po was. Where did the 177 come from? L(f)  
> is single sided. This is not my first "rodeo" in these matters. 73 -  
> Mike
> 
> Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
> 89 Arnold  Blvd.
> Howell, NJ, 07731
> 732-886-5960 office
>  908-902-3831 cell
>  

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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Values  of kT at 25°C (298 K) Units  kT = 4.11×10−21 _J_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule)   kT = 4.114 pN⋅nm  kT = 9.83×10−22 _cal_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie)   kT = 25.7 _meV_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron-volt)Related quantities  kT/hc = 
200 cm-1  kT/e = 25.7 _mV_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt)   RT = kT ⋅ _NA_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro's_number)  = 2.479 _kJ⋅mol-1_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_per_mole)   u = 0.593 _kcal⋅mol−1_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilocalorie_per_mole)   _h_ 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant) 
/kT = 0.16 _ps_ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picosecond) 
 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2016 7:02:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
j...@miles.io writes:

Right,  I'm speaking specifically of L(f).  The device being driven by the  
oscillator doesn't care about the NF of the driver stage, only what a PN  
analyzer would measure at the output jack.

For any 50-ohm source, the  practical L(f) floor is -177 dBm/Hz - the 
carrier power in dBm.  No  oscillator with an output of 0 dBm can be quieter 
than 
-177 dBc/Hz at any  offset, but an oscillator that puts out +20 dBm could 
approach -197  dBc/Hz.

Given a proverbial black box containing a +17 dBm oscillator  that measures 
-195 dBc/Hz at 100 kHz, the interesting question is, "What's in  the box?"  
There could be a passive resonator that's shaving off the  broadband noise 
after the last active stage without contributing additive  noise of its own. 
 Another possibility might be cross-spectral collapse  due to correlated 
thermal noise from the splitter.   

--  john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


> -Original  Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On  Behalf Of KA2WEU--
> - via time-nuts
> Sent: Thursday, August 11,  2016 2:37 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts]  State of the art of crystal oscillator 
measurements
> 
> NO, the  maximum  possible noise dynamic range is ( 177 +  Pout)   [dBm]  
-
> Transistor large signal NF ( dB),
>  the  signal to noise ration is dimensionless 
>  

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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

NO, the maximum  possible noise dynamic range is ( 177 +  Pout)  [dBm]  - 
Transistor large signal NF ( dB),
 the signal to noise ration is dimensionless 
 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2016 5:00:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
j...@miles.io writes:

Or  rather -(177+DUT output power in dBm).  The minus sign makes the  
difference between the thermal floor and a nuclear war!

-- john,  KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

> Remember that L(f) is expressed in  dBc/Hz, not dBm/Hz.  If it were 
dBm/Hz,
> then kT would be the  limit.  But in dBc/Hz terms, the limit is 177 + the 
DUT's
> output  power in  dBm.


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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

See below 
 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2016 4:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
j...@miles.io writes:

Remember  that L(f) is expressed in dBc/Hz, not dBm/Hz.  If it were dBm/Hz, 
then kT  would be the limit.  But in dBc/Hz terms, the limit  is 177 + the 
DUT's output power in dBm - transistor large signal NF in dB  .  

Assuming a 50 ohm system, of course.

-- john,  KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


> -Original Message-
>  From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike
>  Feher
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:51 PM
> To: 'Discussion  of precise time and frequency measurement';
> ka2...@aol.com;  t...@leapsecond.com
> Cc: enrico.rubi...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator 
measurements
>  
> kT is indeed relevant for a physical implementation. - Mike
>  
> Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
> 89 Arnold Blvd.
> Howell, NJ,  07731
> 732-886-5960 office
> 908-902-3831  cell

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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good morning,
 
the difference between the two phase noise FWSP systems is the lower noise  
internal 10 MHz reference crystal  oscillator (optimized )  as  well as 
also some of the internal FSWP circuits custom  optimized . The  output power 
was 17 dBm, but we also have build one oscillator with  12 dBm  output power 
and noise  similar values.
 
This is part of a PhD project which I supervise .For values so close to 
the carrier you need a very low noise power supply  and a well shielded 
Faraday cage . The measurement with ca 100  correlation  took about 2 hours. 
Also the heating circuit needs to be low noise and well  decoupled .
 
The 100 Hz value of the better analyzer seems suspicious , It needs to be  
further  investigated.
 
All very exciting and time consuming .
 
Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/10/2016 11:02:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mfe...@eozinc.com writes:

These  seem extremely fantastic results for a 100 MHz oscillator. I am 
curious what  the Po of the oscillators are Regards - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, EOZ  Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960  office
908-902-3831 cell


-Original Message-
From:  time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van  
Baak
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 9:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise  time and frequency measurement
Cc: enrico.rubi...@gmail.com
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator  
measurements

Attached is a GIF of the table Ulrich wants to  share.

Note time-nuts is a plain text mailing list so any rtf or html  formatting 
is discarded.
On the bright side, PDF or data or image  attachments are allowed with no  
problem.

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

The _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com)  reformatted the  
offset / phase noise  table so it became almost unreadable compared to the  
original , sorry, 
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/10/2016 8:00:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:





Test Equipment Improvement 




The  measurement of  the  100 MHz  XO was done on an improved  R&S  FSWPs.  
Measured data is in the table  below:



XO  100  MHz   

FSWP SN  101143  
FSWP SN   101192   
Offset  
Phase  Noise in  dBc/Hz   
0.1  Hz  
-45.24   
-49.11   
1  Hz  
-82.30   
-82.33   
10  Hz  
-113.87   
-113.74   
100  Hz  
-143.27   
-141.61   
1  kHz  
-166.55   
-167.26   
10  kHz  
-180.54   
-186.91   
100  kHz  
-186.41  
-195.43  






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[time-nuts] State of the art of crystal oscillator measurements

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

 
 
Test Equipment Improvement 
 
 
  

 The  measurement of  the 100 MHz  XO was done on an improved  R&S  FSWPs. 
Measured data is in the table  below:
 


XO  100 MHz   

FSWP SN  101143  
FSWP SN  101192   
Offset  
Phase  Noise in dBc/Hz   
0.1  Hz  
-45.24  
-49.11   
1  Hz  
-82.30  
-82.33   
10  Hz  
-113.87  
-113.74   
100  Hz  
-143.27  
-141.61   
1  kHz  
-166.55  
-167.26   
10  kHz  
-180.54  
-186.91   
100  kHz  
-186.41  
-195.43 






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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good evening  Magnus 
 
 Nice hearing again from you  and I hate to  disagree  with  you but you 
are wrong , Leeson did not add the flicker effect ,  this was done by my 
friend  Dieter Scherer of HP, I added the  neglected VCO term (pushing) and 
Everett the important  effect of unloaded  vs loaded Q. Please take a look at 
the 
complete  modern  liner noise  equation  to be found in
 
https://www-docs.tu-cottbus.de/mikrowellentechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ulr_
habil_presentation.pdf
 
see page 9 !
 
A complete  up to date non-linear noise model for LC oscillators  and its 
general validation  can be found in 
 
https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/bitstream/11303/1306/1/Dokument_16.pdf
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/7/2016 6:30:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Well, it  is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that 
is  expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on 
record  than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would 
have to  be collected over a much larger set of people.

BTW. Ref 44 in this  paper is one of Edson's articles.

I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book,  and it provides a model, but fail 
to include flicker noise, which  is in Leesons model. It is a 
straight-forward extension thought.  I don't have access to any of his 
articles, except the one-page letter  that Rick linked.

There is surely more work to be done to build a more  comprehensive 
detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented,  
incorporated and extended. Edson clearly  contributed.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU---  via time-nuts wrote:
> Here is another comment ;
>
>
>  this paper is too self-centered for it to be the  reliable  historical
> report which we would like.
> It seems that Edson did  some great work before,
>
>
> 73 de Ulrich , and I agree  with the statement
>
>
>
>
>
>  http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf
>
> Vacuum tube  oscillators
>
>
>  

>  xx
>
>
> In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M.  Eastern Daylight Time,
> time-nuts@febo.com writes:
>
>  Good  morning,
>
> yes I saw the reference  but he did  not point out what it  was or
> function,
> This paper is  more about people and events and very  little since   
...
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> In a message  dated  8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>  michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes:
>
> On Sat,  Aug 6, 2016 at  9:34  AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
> wrote:
>
>> Leeson  produced a somewhat random selection of papers  ,  omitting
>  important
>> things like the sapphire based best in  the word  .  This was not even
>> referenced  .
>
>  The  reference [145] at the  end of the sentence that mentions   sapphire
> oscillators also discusses a  hybrid  photonic-microwave  oscillator that
> incorporates a  room-temperature  sapphire oscillator  so I think he
> tried  to cover both subjects with that  single  reference.
>
>  The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it   is a history  of
> the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50   years  ago. The
> abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't  really  expect to  read
> much about developments  past   1970.
>
> Cheers
>  Michael
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34  AM,   KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
>   wrote:
>>  Some of  the cited references are poor, modern  non-linear mathematic  
is
>
> kind
>>  of  omitted . After all the oscillator   phase noise  speculation,  I 
would
>> have really liked to see at  last a reference   about the most modern
>> measurements   techniques and it  validation.  How do you calibrate a
> phase
> noise   test
>> system.
>>
>> Leeson  produced a  somewhat random  selection of papers , omitting
>  important
>>  things like the  sapphire based best in the  word . This was not even
>>   referenced   .
>>
>> I think he is really out of it.
>>
>> 73 de  N1UL
>>
>>
>>
>> In a  message   dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>   j...@miles.io  writes:
>>
>>>
>>> Very  selected and  incomplete  references and the equally important
>>>  question
>>> of measurements  strangely  not   covered
>>>
>>> 73 de  N 1   UL
>>>
>>
>>  I suppose he  could  write an  equally-lengthy article on measurements
>  alone,
>> but leaving  out the  post-1970s history entirely  was a  little
>>  disappointing.  It was strange   to hit "ctrl-f Rohde"  and see

Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Here is another comment ;
 
 
this paper is too self-centered for it to be the  reliable historical 
report which we would like.
It seems that Edson did some great work before, 
 
 
73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement 

 
 
 
 
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf
 
Vacuum tube oscillators
 
 

xx
 
 
In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:

Good  morning,

yes I saw the reference  but he did not point out what it  was or  
function, 
This paper is more about people and events and very  little since  ...

Ulrich 


In a message dated  8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes:

On Sat,  Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34  AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
   wrote:

> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers  ,  omitting 
important
> things like the sapphire based best in  the word .  This was not even
> referenced  .

The  reference [145] at the  end of the sentence that mentions  sapphire
oscillators also discusses a  hybrid photonic-microwave  oscillator that
incorporates a room-temperature  sapphire oscillator  so I think he
tried to cover both subjects with that  single  reference.

The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it   is a history of
the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50  years  ago. The
abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really  expect to  read
much about developments past   1970.

Cheers
Michael


On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34  AM,  KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
 wrote:
>  Some of  the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic  is 
 
kind
>  of omitted . After all the oscillator   phase noise  speculation, I would
> have really liked to see at  last a reference  about the most modern
> measurements   techniques and it validation.  How do you calibrate a 
phase 
noise  test
> system.
>
> Leeson  produced a somewhat random  selection of papers , omitting 
important
>  things like the  sapphire based best in the word . This was not even
>   referenced  .
>
> I think he is really out of it   .
>
> 73 de N1UL
>
>
>
> In a  message  dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>  j...@miles.io  writes:
>
>>
>> Very selected and  incomplete  references and the equallyimportant
>>  question
>> of measurements strangely  not   covered
>>
>> 73 de N 1   UL
>>
>
>  I suppose he could  write an  equally-lengthy article on measurements  
alone,
> but leaving  out the  post-1970s history entirely was a  little
>  disappointing.  It was strange  to hit "ctrl-f Rohde"  and see  only one 
reference in the
> bibliography.   Same for   "Hewlett."  "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no
> citations)   and  "Stein" brings up none at all.
>
> -- john,   KE5FX
> Miles Design  LLC
>
>
>   ___
> time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

This may be interesting :
 
Y. Gruson, V. Giordano, U. L. Rohde, and E. Rubiola, “On a Conceptual Error 
 in Cross Spectrum PM
Noise Measurements,” Proc. European Frequency and Time  Forum p. ***–***, 
York, United Kingdom,
4–7 April 2016. Abstract no.  1056,
 
73 de Ulrich 
 

xx
 
 
In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:

Good  morning,

yes I saw the reference  but he did not point out what it  was or  
function, 
This paper is more about people and events and very  little since  ...

Ulrich 


In a message dated  8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes:

On Sat,  Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34  AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
   wrote:

> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers  ,  omitting 
important
> things like the sapphire based best in  the word .  This was not even
> referenced  .

The  reference [145] at the  end of the sentence that mentions  sapphire
oscillators also discusses a  hybrid photonic-microwave  oscillator that
incorporates a room-temperature  sapphire oscillator  so I think he
tried to cover both subjects with that  single  reference.

The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it   is a history of
the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50  years  ago. The
abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really  expect to  read
much about developments past   1970.

Cheers
Michael


On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34  AM,  KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
 wrote:
>  Some of  the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic  is 
 
kind
>  of omitted . After all the oscillator   phase noise  speculation, I would
> have really liked to see at  last a reference  about the most modern
> measurements   techniques and it validation.  How do you calibrate a 
phase 
noise  test
> system.
>
> Leeson  produced a somewhat random  selection of papers , omitting 
important
>  things like the  sapphire based best in the word . This was not even
>   referenced  .
>
> I think he is really out of it   .
>
> 73 de N1UL
>
>
>
> In a  message  dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>  j...@miles.io  writes:
>
>>
>> Very selected and  incomplete  references and the equallyimportant
>>  question
>> of measurements strangely  not   covered
>>
>> 73 de N 1   UL
>>
>
>  I suppose he could  write an  equally-lengthy article on measurements  
alone,
> but leaving  out the  post-1970s history entirely was a  little
>  disappointing.  It was strange  to hit "ctrl-f Rohde"  and see  only one 
reference in the
> bibliography.   Same for   "Hewlett."  "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no
> citations)   and  "Stein" brings up none at all.
>
> -- john,   KE5FX
> Miles Design  LLC
>
>
>   ___
> time-nutsmailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
>   https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and  follow  the  instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good morning,
 
yes I saw the reference  but he did not point out what it was or  function, 
This paper is more about people and events and very little since  ...
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
michaeljwout...@gmail.com writes:

On Sat,  Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
  wrote:

> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers ,  omitting 
important
> things like the sapphire based best in the word .  This was not even
> referenced  .

The reference [145] at the  end of the sentence that mentions sapphire
oscillators also discusses a  hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that
incorporates a room-temperature  sapphire oscillator so I think he
tried to cover both subjects with that  single reference.

The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it  is a history of
the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years  ago. The
abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to  read
much about developments past  1970.

Cheers
Michael


On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM,  KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
 wrote:
> Some of  the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is  
kind
>  of omitted . After all the oscillator  phase noise  speculation, I would
> have really liked to see at last a reference  about the most modern
> measurements  techniques and it validation.  How do you calibrate a phase 
noise test
> system.
>
> Leeson  produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting 
important
>  things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even
>  referenced  .
>
> I think he is really out of it  .
>
> 73 de N1UL
>
>
>
> In a message  dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> j...@miles.io  writes:
>
>>
>> Very selected and incomplete  references and the equally   important
>>  question
>> of measurements strangely not   covered
>>
>> 73 de N 1  UL
>>
>
>  I suppose he could  write an equally-lengthy article on measurements  
alone,
> but leaving out the  post-1970s history entirely was a  little
> disappointing.  It was strange  to hit "ctrl-f Rohde"  and see only one 
reference in the
> bibliography.   Same for  "Hewlett."  "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no
> citations)  and  "Stein" brings up none at all.
>
> -- john,  KE5FX
> Miles Design  LLC
>
>
>  ___
> time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

The story is quite simple, life is never fair and therefore some use more  
elbow then others ,
 
Happy weekend, 73 de Ulrich N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 8/6/2016 1:00:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:



On 8/5/2016 12:47 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> Here's a  new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free):
>
> "Oscillator  Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875
>

It  has always irked me that no credit was given to Edson's
pioneering 1953  book "Vacuum tube oscillators" in Leeson's papers
and I see that the  omission continues in the latest paper.  You can see
from the  following reference that Edson was the true pioneer in  this
field:

http://garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1983/A1983QV0081.pdf

He  actually had the basic idea in 1934.  He is the proverbial
"unsung  hero".

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Yes, a good book ! Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/6/2016 7:00:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
csteinm...@yandex.com writes:

Rick  wrote:

> It has always irked me that no credit was given to  Edson
> He is the proverbial "unsung hero"

Hardly unsung.   Harvard PhD Sigma Xi as a Gordon McKay Scholar, 
distinguished career at  Bell Labs, Illinois Institute of Technology, 
Bell Labs Radio Research  Laboratory, Georgia Institute of Technology, 
Georgia Tech Research  Institute, Stanford (working with Fred Terman, as 
he had at RRL), Stanford  Electronics Research Laboratory, GE, founded 
Emtech, Stanford Research  Institute, IEEE Life Fellow.

Edson was very well-known and  well-respected in his day, but he didn't 
publish much.

To this day,  I still refer to "Vacuum-Tube Oscillators" regularly -- 
over 60 years  since it was published!

Best  regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is kind 
 of omitted . After all the oscillator  phase noise speculation, I would  
have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern 
measurements  techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a phase noise 
test  
system.
 
Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting important  
things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even 
referenced  .
 
I think he is really out of it .
 
73 de N1UL  
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
j...@miles.io writes:

>  
> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally   important
> question
> of measurements strangely not  covered
> 
> 73 de N 1  UL
> 

I suppose he could  write an equally-lengthy article on measurements alone, 
but leaving out the  post-1970s history entirely was a little 
disappointing.  It was strange  to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one 
reference in the 
bibliography.   Same for "Hewlett."  "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no 
citations) and  "Stein" brings up none at all.  

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design  LLC


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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

This is in reference to 
 
Here's a new article, on IEEE's site (and this one's  free):

"Oscillator Phase Noise: A 50-Year  Review", by David B.  Leeson
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875



In a message dated 8/5/2016 4:48:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
ka2...@aol.com writes:

Very selected and incomplete references and the equally  important question 
of measurements strangely not covered

73 de N 1  UL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:47 PM,  "Tom Van Baak"  wrote:
> 
> Here's a new  article, on IEEE's site (and this one's free):
> 
> "Oscillator  Phase Noise: A 50-Year Review", by David B. Leeson
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7464875
> 
>  
> 
> Also, a few months IEEE had a "Special Issue to  celebrate the 50th 
anniversary of the Allan Variance".
> The full list  of papers is here:
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7445917
> 
>  Most of the articles are behind the IEEE paywall. Some free exceptions  
here:
> 
> "Introduction to the Special Issue on Celebrating the  50th Anniversary 
of the Allan Variance"
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7445935
> 
>  "The Parabolic Variance (PVAR): A Wavelet Variance Based on the 
Least-Square  Fit"
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7323846
> also  at:
> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.00687.pdf
> 
> "Simulations  of the Hadamard Variance: Probability Distributions and 
Confidence  Intervals"
>  http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7350241
> 
>  
> 
> Best of all, a free version of the David Allan and Judah  Levine paper is 
here:
> 
> "A Historical Perspective on the  Development of the Allan Variances and 
Their Strengths and Weaknesses"
>  http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2834.pdf
> 
> /tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] Effect of EFC noise on phase noise

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

A good filter in the cable is highly recommended, 5 KOhm  & 1000  uF cleans 
many things
 
 
In a message dated 8/1/2016 11:12:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi

It’s just very standard FM modulation math. The only  gotcha is the 
(often unknown) bandwidth of the EFC port. Even on a  precision 
OCXO, it might be <10 Hz, it might be over a KHz …. The trap  many
fall into is the “small angle” restriction. You can get into  modulation 
indexes that will get the second and third order terms  contributing. 
It’s more common to see on vibration, but it can happen on a  noisy
EFC.

Bob


> On Aug 1, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Attila  Kinali  wrote:
> 
> Moin,
> 
>  I need some formulas that relate EFC noise to the (added) phase noise  of
> an OCXO. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something.  But
> before I make some stupid mistakes, i wanted to ask whether  someone
> has already done this or has any references to papers? My  google-foo
> was not strong enough to find something.
> 
>  Attila Kinali
> 
> --  
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All  
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no  
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil  Stephenson
> ___
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[time-nuts] For all : Makes for interesting reading

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

_http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/26593-m%C3%B6bius-metamaterial-ins
pired-signal-sources-and-sensors_ 
(http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/26593-möbius-metamaterial-inspired-signal-sources-and-sensors)
 
 
 
 
Ulrich 
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Re: [time-nuts] IFCS 2016 in New Orleans

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I will be there too, which ham repeater ?   N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 5/8/2016 1:00:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bneu...@t-online.de writes:

I will  be  I will arrive on Monday late afternoon.
Looking forward to meeting  you and other Time Nuts soon

Bernd Neubig - DK1AG
AXTAL GmbH &  CO. KG



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Magnus  
Danielson
Gesendet: Sonntag, 8. Mai 2016 13:42
An: Discussion of precise  time and frequency measurement 

Cc:  mag...@rubidium.se
Betreff: [time-nuts] IFCS 2016 in New  Orleans

Fellow time-nuts,

As I will attend the IFCS 2016 in New  Orleans there is an opportunity to 
meet. One of the local time-nuts have  already reached out and contacted me. 
Already in  town.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Misc topics

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I got a large reply to give the 8662 away, let the old/new one arrive and  
be ok, and the first one who contacted me will get mine. Good luck with the  
repair of the power supply. The 8662 works correct occasionally, starts up 
and  then not but is in specs.
 
I will be in San Francisco IMS /MTT giving papers in May, then I  will know 
more.
 
For those interested in advanced physics here is some work we are doing 
 
 
 Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 4/30/2016 6:40:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
ka2...@aol.com writes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
 
 
 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rpair of an 8662 HP Generator

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

The problem is solved, A German surplus dealer has/had bunch of these  
generator, calibrated and with guarantee for less then $ 3000. And in good  
shape. 
 
Who wants  the old one .. no cost , power supply in trouble , Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2016 10:01:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:

Thanks,  I do not have a repair manual and I hate to abandon the signal   
generator after man years of positive use... Ulrich  


In a  message dated 4/15/2016 9:14:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,   
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:


Ulrich
To  your first  question I am unaware of anyone that repairs them. Though 
there are   many places that might, typical cal and repair shops. I have a 
sick 
8662  also  (age) and need to dig in. At least I know the board and the 
most  
likely issue.  The yahoo user group has a lot of useful  details.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL






On Fri, Apr  15, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Dr. Ulrich Rohde via  time-nuts  
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) >  wrote:

Thanks

Sent  from my iPhone


On Apr 15,  2016, at 6:38 PM, "John Miles" <_john@miles.io_ 
(mailto:j...@miles.io)  >  wrote:

>> My  signal generator has a poor,  intermittent  power  supply.  The RF
>> section is ok.  Who can please  tell me which company can and  will fix  
these
>>  older
>> but excellent   generators?
>>
>>  Thanks, Ulrich
>
> Have  a look at the capacitors in the voltage  divider that drives the  
bases of the switching transistors.  There's a  good chance  that's your 
problem, and they probably need to be replaced even  if  not.  75-TVA1607 
(Mouser 
p/n for Sprague TVA1607) works   well.
>
> It would be nice to use 105C parts if you can find   some, but the 85C 
TVA1607s have worked well for me in multiple 8662As  over  several years.
>
> The other likely suspect is one of  the large  screw-terminal 
electrolytics on the motherboard.  The  power supply can  
almost-but-not-quite start up 
when one of those is  completely open.   High ESR is very likely to cause 
intermittent  operation.
>
> --  john, KE5FX
> Miles Design  LLC
>
>   ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rpair of an 8662 HP Generator

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks
 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2016 10:02:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
scmcgr...@gmail.com writes:

Silicon  investigations repairs them. Google the name for website

Content by  Scott
Typos by Siri

On Apr 15, 2016, at 6:38 PM, John Miles   wrote:

>> My  signal generator has a  poor, intermittent power  supply.  The RF
>> section is ok.  Who can please tell me which company can and  will fix 
these
>>  older
>> but excellent  generators?
>> 
>>  Thanks, Ulrich
> 
> Have a look at the capacitors in the voltage  divider that drives the 
bases of the switching transistors.  There's a  good chance that's your 
problem, and they probably need to be replaced even if  not.  75-TVA1607 
(Mouser 
p/n for Sprague TVA1607) works well.   
> 
> It would be nice to use 105C parts if you can find some, but  the 85C 
TVA1607s have worked well for me in multiple 8662As over several  years. 
> 
> The other likely suspect is one of the large  screw-terminal 
electrolytics on the motherboard.  The power supply can  almost-but-not-quite 
start up 
when one of those is completely open.  High  ESR is very likely to cause 
intermittent operation. 
> 
> -- john,  KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
> 
>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rpair of an 8662 HP Generator

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks, I do not have a repair manual and I hate to abandon the signal  
generator after man years of positive use... Ulrich  
 
 
In a message dated 4/15/2016 9:14:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

 
Ulrich
To  your first question I am unaware of anyone that repairs them. Though 
there are  many places that might, typical cal and repair shops. I have a sick 
8662 also  (age) and need to dig in. At least I know the board and the most 
likely issue.  The yahoo user group has a lot of useful details.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL






On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Dr. Ulrich Rohde via  time-nuts 
<_time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) > wrote:

Thanks

Sent  from my iPhone


On Apr 15, 2016, at 6:38 PM, "John Miles" <_john@miles.io_ 
(mailto:j...@miles.io) >  wrote:

>> My  signal generator has a poor, intermittent  power  supply.  The RF
>> section is ok. Who can please  tell me which company can and  will fix 
these
>>  older
>> but excellent  generators?
>>
>>  Thanks, Ulrich
>
> Have a look at the capacitors in the voltage  divider that drives the 
bases of the switching transistors.  There's a  good chance that's your 
problem, and they probably need to be replaced even  if not.  75-TVA1607 
(Mouser 
p/n for Sprague TVA1607) works  well.
>
> It would be nice to use 105C parts if you can find  some, but the 85C 
TVA1607s have worked well for me in multiple 8662As over  several years.
>
> The other likely suspect is one of the large  screw-terminal 
electrolytics on the motherboard.  The power supply can  almost-but-not-quite 
start up 
when one of those is completely open.   High ESR is very likely to cause 
intermittent operation.
>
> --  john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>
>  ___
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(mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) 
> To  unsubscribe, go to 
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>  and follow the instructions  there.
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[time-nuts] Rpair of an 8662 HP Generator

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

My  signal generator has a poor, intermittent power  supply.  The RF 
section is ok. Who can please tell me which company can and  will fix these 
older 
but excellent  generators?
 
Thanks, Ulrich 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Framework for simulation of oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2270&context=etd
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/20/2016 5:33:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.se writes:

Ulrich  and Attila,

As you read the appendixes of ITU-T Rec. G.823, G.824 and  G.825 they 
will not give very detailed information, but hints. The flicker  noise 
model comes from Jim Barnes and Chuck Greenhalls PTTI 19 article  "Large 
Sample Simulation of Flicker Noise". Be aware of Chuck's follow-up  
correction. Further, they model the amount of noise and add into the  
loop in place of the oscillator, which then has a normal PI-loop. Such a  
simulation can be done fairly efficiently considering that the  
oscillator and loop is very simple linear models of phase, not too  
different to what I proposed. For the stuff that Attila needs to  
simulate, some additional thought needs to go into how to simulate the  
effect he is seeing, but a fairly simple approach should be interesting  
to try out initially.

The Barnes&Greenhall flicker generator  builds on a filter-bank where the 
poles and nulls is placed such that they  approximate the flicker noise 
slope of 1/tau. This is a generalized  variant of Jim Barnes PhD work 
where he had fixed relations and where  Chuck Greenhall have contributed 
significantly by providing means to setup  the state of the filter such 
that the filter will act as a filter in  equilibrium from start, rather 
than taking much time to converge,  something which may introduce a bias 
into the measurement results. I have  re-implemented their BASIC-code 
into C and run Chuck's original code  along-side to verify (just to find 
where I did my mistake in converting  it).

If this simulation approach is sufficient for either of your  efforts, or 
not, depends on what you try to capture. For instance, the  oscillators 
performance have been idealized in assuming fully linear EFC,  fully 
linear integrator of the crystal, assuming noise profile etc. This  may 
or may not be sufficient. Inherent lowpass filtering may be important  or 
not.

I've done PLL simulations many times, in fixed integer, in  floating 
point and in VHDL. It's always a challenge to model it right to  the needs.

Let me also have reader of this thread reminded of TvB's  simulator for a 
GPSDO, which is interesting as it adds real GPS PPS data  and real open 
loop oscillator data with a simple PLL oscillator core you  can then 
tweak. Great fun in all it's simplicity and nice way to do  reality 
check. I've done similar things with about the same code amount  that 
have proved very useful.

However, recall that whenever you  make a model, you do it with 
assumptions for your particular problem, so  some stuff will be left out 
and some will be particular to your problem.  One guys model may be crap 
to another ones problem. There is a few tricks  to be learned and a few 
things to recall to  include.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/20/2016 09:19 PM,  ka2...@aol.com wrote:
> I am interested in this topic too, thanks,  Ulrich
> In a message dated 3/20/2016 4:10:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>
>   Attila,
>
> On 03/17/2016 10:56  AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>  > Moin,
>   >
>  > Measurement we recently  did showed some quite unexpected behaviour
>  >  and I am trying to figure out where this comes from. For this
>   > I would like to simulate our system, which consists of  multiple
>  > crystal oscillators that are coupled  in a non-linear way (kind of
>  > a vector-PLL  with a step transfer function) with a "loop 
bandwidth"
> > of a few 10kHz.
>  >
>   > My goal is to simulate the noise properties of the  crystal
> oscillators
>   > both short term (in the 10us range) and long term (several  1000
> seconds)
>  > in a  way that models reality closely (ie short term instability
>   is uncorrelated
>  > while long term  instability is correlated through 
temp/humidity/...)
> >
>  > As I am pretty sure not the first  one to attempt something like 
this,
>  > I would  like to ask whether someone has already some software
>   framework
>  > around for this kind  of simulation?
>  >
>   > If not, does someone have pointers how to write realistic
>   oscillator models
>  > for this kind  of short and long term simulation?
>
> It is a  large field that you tries to cover. What you need to do is
>   actually find the model that models the behavior of your physical  
setup.
>
> You need to have white and flicker  noises, there is a few ways to get
> the flicker  coloring. I did some hacking of the setup, and ran tests
>   against Chuck Greenhalls original BASIC  code.
>
> You probably want a systematic effect  model of phase, frequency and
> drift. Also a cubic  frequency vs. temperature. All the properties 
needs
>  to be different for each instance. Similarly, the flicker filter  
needs
> to be independent f

Re: [time-nuts] Framework for simulation of oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://joerg-berkner.de/Fachartikel/pdf/2000_AKB_Berkner_1f_noise.pdf
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/20/2016 5:33:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.se writes:

Ulrich  and Attila,

As you read the appendixes of ITU-T Rec. G.823, G.824 and  G.825 they 
will not give very detailed information, but hints. The flicker  noise 
model comes from Jim Barnes and Chuck Greenhalls PTTI 19 article  "Large 
Sample Simulation of Flicker Noise". Be aware of Chuck's follow-up  
correction. Further, they model the amount of noise and add into the  
loop in place of the oscillator, which then has a normal PI-loop. Such a  
simulation can be done fairly efficiently considering that the  
oscillator and loop is very simple linear models of phase, not too  
different to what I proposed. For the stuff that Attila needs to  
simulate, some additional thought needs to go into how to simulate the  
effect he is seeing, but a fairly simple approach should be interesting  
to try out initially.

The Barnes&Greenhall flicker generator  builds on a filter-bank where the 
poles and nulls is placed such that they  approximate the flicker noise 
slope of 1/tau. This is a generalized  variant of Jim Barnes PhD work 
where he had fixed relations and where  Chuck Greenhall have contributed 
significantly by providing means to setup  the state of the filter such 
that the filter will act as a filter in  equilibrium from start, rather 
than taking much time to converge,  something which may introduce a bias 
into the measurement results. I have  re-implemented their BASIC-code 
into C and run Chuck's original code  along-side to verify (just to find 
where I did my mistake in converting  it).

If this simulation approach is sufficient for either of your  efforts, or 
not, depends on what you try to capture. For instance, the  oscillators 
performance have been idealized in assuming fully linear EFC,  fully 
linear integrator of the crystal, assuming noise profile etc. This  may 
or may not be sufficient. Inherent lowpass filtering may be important  or 
not.

I've done PLL simulations many times, in fixed integer, in  floating 
point and in VHDL. It's always a challenge to model it right to  the needs.

Let me also have reader of this thread reminded of TvB's  simulator for a 
GPSDO, which is interesting as it adds real GPS PPS data  and real open 
loop oscillator data with a simple PLL oscillator core you  can then 
tweak. Great fun in all it's simplicity and nice way to do  reality 
check. I've done similar things with about the same code amount  that 
have proved very useful.

However, recall that whenever you  make a model, you do it with 
assumptions for your particular problem, so  some stuff will be left out 
and some will be particular to your problem.  One guys model may be crap 
to another ones problem. There is a few tricks  to be learned and a few 
things to recall to  include.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/20/2016 09:19 PM,  ka2...@aol.com wrote:
> I am interested in this topic too, thanks,  Ulrich
> In a message dated 3/20/2016 4:10:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>
>   Attila,
>
> On 03/17/2016 10:56  AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>  > Moin,
>   >
>  > Measurement we recently  did showed some quite unexpected behaviour
>  >  and I am trying to figure out where this comes from. For this
>   > I would like to simulate our system, which consists of  multiple
>  > crystal oscillators that are coupled  in a non-linear way (kind of
>  > a vector-PLL  with a step transfer function) with a "loop 
bandwidth"
> > of a few 10kHz.
>  >
>   > My goal is to simulate the noise properties of the  crystal
> oscillators
>   > both short term (in the 10us range) and long term (several  1000
> seconds)
>  > in a  way that models reality closely (ie short term instability
>   is uncorrelated
>  > while long term  instability is correlated through 
temp/humidity/...)
> >
>  > As I am pretty sure not the first  one to attempt something like 
this,
>  > I would  like to ask whether someone has already some software
>   framework
>  > around for this kind  of simulation?
>  >
>   > If not, does someone have pointers how to write realistic
>   oscillator models
>  > for this kind  of short and long term simulation?
>
> It is a  large field that you tries to cover. What you need to do is
>   actually find the model that models the behavior of your physical  
setup.
>
> You need to have white and flicker  noises, there is a few ways to get
> the flicker  coloring. I did some hacking of the setup, and ran tests
>   against Chuck Greenhalls original BASIC  code.
>
> You probably want a systematic effect  model of phase, frequency and
> drift. Also a cubic  frequency vs. temperature. All the properties 
needs
>  to be different for each instance. Similarly, the flicker filter  
needs
> to be independent for 

Re: [time-nuts] Framework for simulation of oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks, Ulrich
 
 
In a message dated 3/20/2016 5:33:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.se writes:

Ulrich  and Attila,

As you read the appendixes of ITU-T Rec. G.823, G.824 and  G.825 they 
will not give very detailed information, but hints. The flicker  noise 
model comes from Jim Barnes and Chuck Greenhalls PTTI 19 article  "Large 
Sample Simulation of Flicker Noise". Be aware of Chuck's follow-up  
correction. Further, they model the amount of noise and add into the  
loop in place of the oscillator, which then has a normal PI-loop. Such a  
simulation can be done fairly efficiently considering that the  
oscillator and loop is very simple linear models of phase, not too  
different to what I proposed. For the stuff that Attila needs to  
simulate, some additional thought needs to go into how to simulate the  
effect he is seeing, but a fairly simple approach should be interesting  
to try out initially.

The Barnes&Greenhall flicker generator  builds on a filter-bank where the 
poles and nulls is placed such that they  approximate the flicker noise 
slope of 1/tau. This is a generalized  variant of Jim Barnes PhD work 
where he had fixed relations and where  Chuck Greenhall have contributed 
significantly by providing means to setup  the state of the filter such 
that the filter will act as a filter in  equilibrium from start, rather 
than taking much time to converge,  something which may introduce a bias 
into the measurement results. I have  re-implemented their BASIC-code 
into C and run Chuck's original code  along-side to verify (just to find 
where I did my mistake in converting  it).

If this simulation approach is sufficient for either of your  efforts, or 
not, depends on what you try to capture. For instance, the  oscillators 
performance have been idealized in assuming fully linear EFC,  fully 
linear integrator of the crystal, assuming noise profile etc. This  may 
or may not be sufficient. Inherent lowpass filtering may be important  or 
not.

I've done PLL simulations many times, in fixed integer, in  floating 
point and in VHDL. It's always a challenge to model it right to  the needs.

Let me also have reader of this thread reminded of TvB's  simulator for a 
GPSDO, which is interesting as it adds real GPS PPS data  and real open 
loop oscillator data with a simple PLL oscillator core you  can then 
tweak. Great fun in all it's simplicity and nice way to do  reality 
check. I've done similar things with about the same code amount  that 
have proved very useful.

However, recall that whenever you  make a model, you do it with 
assumptions for your particular problem, so  some stuff will be left out 
and some will be particular to your problem.  One guys model may be crap 
to another ones problem. There is a few tricks  to be learned and a few 
things to recall to  include.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/20/2016 09:19 PM,  ka2...@aol.com wrote:
> I am interested in this topic too, thanks,  Ulrich
> In a message dated 3/20/2016 4:10:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>
>   Attila,
>
> On 03/17/2016 10:56  AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>  > Moin,
>   >
>  > Measurement we recently  did showed some quite unexpected behaviour
>  >  and I am trying to figure out where this comes from. For this
>   > I would like to simulate our system, which consists of  multiple
>  > crystal oscillators that are coupled  in a non-linear way (kind of
>  > a vector-PLL  with a step transfer function) with a "loop 
bandwidth"
> > of a few 10kHz.
>  >
>   > My goal is to simulate the noise properties of the  crystal
> oscillators
>   > both short term (in the 10us range) and long term (several  1000
> seconds)
>  > in a  way that models reality closely (ie short term instability
>   is uncorrelated
>  > while long term  instability is correlated through 
temp/humidity/...)
> >
>  > As I am pretty sure not the first  one to attempt something like 
this,
>  > I would  like to ask whether someone has already some software
>   framework
>  > around for this kind  of simulation?
>  >
>   > If not, does someone have pointers how to write realistic
>   oscillator models
>  > for this kind  of short and long term simulation?
>
> It is a  large field that you tries to cover. What you need to do is
>   actually find the model that models the behavior of your physical  
setup.
>
> You need to have white and flicker  noises, there is a few ways to get
> the flicker  coloring. I did some hacking of the setup, and ran tests
>   against Chuck Greenhalls original BASIC  code.
>
> You probably want a systematic effect  model of phase, frequency and
> drift. Also a cubic  frequency vs. temperature. All the properties 
needs
>  to be different for each instance. Similarly, the flicker filter  
needs
> to be independent for each  oscillator.
>
> Similar enough things have been  tried wh

Re: [time-nuts] Framework for simulation of oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

 
I am interested in this topic too, thanks, Ulrich 

 
 
In a message dated 3/20/2016 4:10:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Attila,

On 03/17/2016 10:56 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>  Moin,
>
> Measurement we recently did showed some quite unexpected  behaviour
> and I am trying to figure out where this comes from. For  this
> I would like to simulate our system, which consists of  multiple
> crystal oscillators that are coupled in a non-linear way  (kind of
> a vector-PLL with a step transfer function) with a "loop  bandwidth"
> of a few 10kHz.
>
> My goal is to simulate the  noise properties of the crystal oscillators
> both short term (in the  10us range) and long term (several 1000 seconds)
> in a way that models  reality closely (ie short term instability is 
uncorrelated
> while long  term instability is correlated through temp/humidity/...)
>
> As I  am pretty sure not the first one to attempt something like this,
> I  would like to ask whether someone has already some software framework
>  around for this kind of simulation?
>
> If not, does someone have  pointers how to write realistic oscillator 
models
> for this kind of  short and long term simulation?

It is a large field that you tries to  cover. What you need to do is 
actually find the model that models the  behavior of your physical setup.

You need to have white and flicker  noises, there is a few ways to get 
the flicker coloring. I did some  hacking of the setup, and ran tests 
against Chuck Greenhalls original  BASIC code.

You probably want a systematic effect model of phase,  frequency and 
drift. Also a cubic frequency vs. temperature. All the  properties needs 
to be different for each instance. Similarly, the flicker  filter needs 
to be independent for each oscillator.

Similar enough  things have been tried when simulating the jitter and 
wander in the  G.823-825 specs.

An aspect you need to include is the filtering  properties of the EFC 
input, it acts like a low-pass filter, and the Q of  the resonator is 
another catch-point.

I wonder how complex model  you need to build before you have catched the 
characteristics you are  after.

The EFC measures you have done so far indicate that your  steering 
essentially operates as if you do where doing something similar  to 
charge-pump  operation.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: 5065

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

 
The HP 5065A Rubidium Frequency Standard requires  a circular 3 pin adapter 
cable that  can be plugged into 115V AC outlet. 
I checked all cables I have  and this particular cable  is not finable. Can 
the unit set to 110/220 V  
Maybe  this cable can be  purchased  or assembled ?   ULRICH  
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[time-nuts] HP 5065A

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

In my closet I found one of these, any merit to play with it  ?
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/14/2016 5:00:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
lars.walen...@hotmail.com writes:

Hi

Shouldn´t 5x10^-11 over 50C be 1x10^-12 / C? So with  2-4°C variation it is 
2-4x10^-12.

What about pressure variations for  the HP5065 and other Rb´s? My LPRO have 
about 7x10^-14/mBar (hPa) so with  15-20mbar change, that can happen quite 
quick, it is also in the ^-12 range.  The tempco for my LPRO is 7x10^-13/°C 
and drift in the high ^-14 per day so my  GPSDO controller mostly fights the 
temperature and pressure variations I  think. I like having a GPS 
disciplined Rb as I haven´t had to adjust it during  the last years. Of course 
a OCXO 
based GPSDO will also stay on frequency. For  me the Rb have been good when 
I have tested GPS modules and GPSDO´s just out  of curiosity. In hold mode 
it have been useful to get the ADEV out to say  1 secs (low ^-13).

Lars

Från: Bob  Camp
Skickat: den 14 mars 2016 02:01
Till:  Discussion of precise time and frequency  
measurement
Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5065A  repair

Hi

Some math:

5x10^-11 over 50C

You have  1x10^-13 / C

If you have pretty good HVAC you get 2C cycles. On a  typical home system, 
you get 2X that or more.

Net is a bump at 2x10^-13  (or more).

That assumes no hysteresis. (Hint: there always is  hysteresis).

That assumes you have no rate dependent effects. (… they  almost always are 
present ..).

If you are at 10X the data sheet level,  the bump is more like 2x10^-12 (or 
more). Either one will likely show up on a  good test plot.

Can you take care of all this? Of course you can. Does  modeling and 
correcting all this fall into the “quick and easy fix” category?  Nope, not at 
all. The thread is about a request for a simple approach to an Rb  setup. That 
sort of thing does not include fancy models and all sorts of  corrections.

Bob



> On Mar 13, 2016, at 5:10 PM,  Poul-Henning Kamp  
wrote:
>
>  
> In message ,  cdel...@juno.com 
writes:
>
>> As far a tempco goes, unless your  lab swings tens of degrees will you
>> really see it?
>
>  Well, I do...
>
> My air-con is far from optimal, but it clearly  makes a very obvious
> bump in my AVAR plots.
>
>
>  --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since  RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since  4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained  by 
incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Best Rubidium Frequency Standard

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good morning ,
 
what is wrong with   the Standford Research  Rubidium  standard with a 1 
sec sync pulls form a GPS satellite ?" 
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/13/2016 10:16:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi

With “real” (who knows how real) Rb based GPSDO’s selling  below $250, it’
s not clear that running an Rb in a lash up that makes it look  like a 
TBolt is a worthwhile exercise. Unless you can get the time constants  out into 
the “several days” range, a manual adjust is a much better way to go.  
Since we are talking about a “I just want to plug it all in” sort of approach  
here, anything more than “set and forget” appears to be out of the 
question.  

Bob


> On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:48 PM, Charles Steinmetz   
wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
>  
>> With the right settings, a PRS10 *does* work extremely well with  the 
PPS input from a GPS.  They do generally take several days or more to  lock, 
because of the long time constants involved.
> 
> Bob  replied:
> 
>> I would call having to wait a few days for it to  lock a bit of a 
disadvantage. Even more so for those with an antenna  challenged environment 
that 
gives them dropouts every few hours.
>  
> Well, one is certainly free to use shorter time constants to achieve  
lock faster.  The very long TCs simply allow one to exploit the exemplary  
stability of the PRS10 for performance much better than what an OCXO-based  
GPSDO can deliver.  If you are content with the stability of, say, a  TBolt, 
you 
can replicate that performance by adjusting the PRS10 loop to match  TBolt 
dynamics -- in which case it will lock in a comparable time.
>  
> WRT holdover, the long TC and the inherent stability of the PRS10  mean 
that it will stay very close to the GPS PPS even over long holdover  periods, 
so re-acquiring lock does not take nearly as long as acquiring it  
initially.  For the same reason, a PRS10 set up for maximum stability can  
acquire 
lock even if there are holdover periods during the acquisition process  (in 
both cases, assuming that the GPS does not output "bad" PPS pulses when it  
is not locked to GPS).
> 
> In principle, one might be able to  begin the process by setting the 
PRS10 loop "tighter," then changing the loop  constants in one or more steps 
after it achieves initial lock.  I have  not tried this, and do not know if 
changing the loop programming on the fly  upsets the PRS10 phase.  If not, it 
should work (and one could even  program a BBB, 'uino, or other small 
processor to do it  automatically).
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>  Charles
> 
> 
>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Why don't you look at the outline to determine what might be  needed or 
missing .
 
Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/11/2016 11:09:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
att...@kinali.ch writes:

Hoi  Ulrich,

On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:52:58 -0500
KA2WEU--- via time-nuts   wrote:

> I have published the following  book 
>  
> " Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and  Design, Ulrich L.  
Rohde, 
> John Wiley & Sons, August 1997,  ISBN  0-471-52019-5."
[...]
> As I am more or less now in  microwave technology and less in  PLL IC's, 
I 
> hate to see this  standard textbook disappear Who can help or  want 
to 
> take  over?

Da ich sowieso für mich was grösseres über  Zeit/Frequenzmessung
amzusammenstellen bin, und da PLL's grundsätzlich auch  dazu gehören,
wäre ich interessiert. Mein Problem dabei ist, dass ich von  der
praktischen Seite aber kaum eine Erfahrung habe und für mich  alleine
die Arbeit mit ziemlicher Sicherheit zuviel wäre. Aber es wäre  möglich,
dass ich zum Beispiel mit Magnus zusammen und vielleicht der Hilfe  von
ein paar anderen time-nuts und/oder Enrico etwas auf die Beine stellen  
könnte.

Was wären denn die Dinge, welche für dich, in ein Update rein  müssten?

Gruess aus Saarbrücken

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a  society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological  sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that  foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil  Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks, that why I try to keep it alive, Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/9/2016 5:08:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
brent.ev...@gmail.com writes:

Ulrich  -

I checked my bookshelf last night and sure enough, Rhode's "Digital  PLL
Frequency Synthesizers - Theory and Design" is still sitting  faithfully
there (I thought it might have been lost with my missing copy of  "Microwave
Transistor Amplifiers by Gonzales).  I remember getting it  directly from
you probably right around 1996, when I was working on PLL's  at Watkins
Johnson as a young (and back then, "still-relevant"  engineer).  I remember
there was quite a dearth of information on  practical PLL theory and design
(at least that I could find), and that it  (your book) was essentially out
of print.  I felt lucky to have found  that you still had a pile of them for
sale.

I moved on from that  work shortly after and never knew that a new edition
was re-incarnated as  "Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and
Design".

To me,  your PLL book, and others like Gonzales and Clarke and  Hess's
"Communication Circuits: Analysis and Design"  and some of the  old HP app
notes were the "Art of Electronics" of my RF  world.

Brent
KD4VMM


On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:44 PM,  Magnus Danielson 
 wrote:

> Hi  Ulrich and Jim,
>
> On 03/08/2016 07:11 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>
>> The people who really know about this stuff do it  for a living, all the
>> time, and probably don't have a lot of free  time. I've done a couple of
>> book chapters, and it's an enormous  amount of work, and that's with
>> collaborators and editors to  help.  I suspect that  for these people the
>> problem is  not a lack of "funding" from the employer, but, rather, that
>> there  is more work to do than people to do it.
>>
>> And, often,  the "state of the art" is either proprietary or subject to
>> other  controls on distribution.  Unless you are in a special  situation
>> (e.g. you own the company, or it's a small company and  the owner(s)
>> agree), I can see management not seeing the "value  added proposition"
>> for letting your talented, knowledgable PLL  guru work on getting into a
>> form suitable for publication: they'd  rather you be making boxes.
>>
>
> Indeed, this is really  a problem. At the same time, people do need to
> learn the basics and  honestly, there haven't been many good books but 
lots
> of half-crap  books.
>
> There is also many aspects which you need to learn as  concepts, even if
> you use gift-wrapped designs.
>
> At the  same time, there is always a generation shift, there is always new
>  designers that need to learn how to do this, that need the advice.
> I  find that I teaches basics regularly to my colleagues, so that they  
can
> design a better solutions.
>
> I think there is value  in keeping a good reference book maintained and up
> to  date.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition and other activities

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/26091-german-university-establishes
-center-of-excellence
 
Yes, I need to repair my 2m/70 cm ICOM old toy. Mostly on 20 m and up
 
Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 8:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mfe...@eozinc.com writes:

I agree  Ulrich. I was designing FFTs, Digital filters and DDSs in the late 
60's early  70's through the mid 80's. After that it was discrete PLLs. Had 
to write our  own programs for coefficients and use discrete parts most of 
the time. How  many design engineers today even know what a Z transform is, 
or the Remez  exchange algorithm. It seems except for a very few, the 
fundamentals are lost.  BTW, I do have your book, HI. It has been a long time 
since we chatted on 2  meters. 73 - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold  Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831  cell

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of KA2WEU--- 
via  time-nuts
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 11:57 AM
To:  rich...@karlquist.com; time-nuts@febo.com
Cc:  enrico.rubi...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd  edition

yes, but the underlying math and system architecture   will/would be 
exciting.

Thanks, for the comments, Ulrich  


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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Thanks, Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 8:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
mfe...@eozinc.com writes:

I agree  Ulrich. I was designing FFTs, Digital filters and DDSs in the late 
60's early  70's through the mid 80's. After that it was discrete PLLs. Had 
to write our  own programs for coefficients and use discrete parts most of 
the time. How  many design engineers today even know what a Z transform is, 
or the Remez  exchange algorithm. It seems except for a very few, the 
fundamentals are lost.  BTW, I do have your book, HI. It has been a long time 
since we chatted on 2  meters. 73 - Mike 

Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold  Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831  cell

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of KA2WEU--- 
via  time-nuts
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 11:57 AM
To:  rich...@karlquist.com; time-nuts@febo.com
Cc:  enrico.rubi...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd  edition

yes, but the underlying math and system architecture   will/would be 
exciting.

Thanks, for the comments, Ulrich  


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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Correct, unless yo want to sell PLL chips, DDS and  NCO's and their use 
needs to be explained  !  Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 2:01:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jim...@earthlink.net writes:

On  3/8/16 8:27 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
>
>
> On  3/8/2016 3:18 AM, ka2...@aol.com wrote:
>> Good Morning,
>>  technically you are correct, most buy what they find and live with  a
>> compromise. But companies like mine, R&S, test equipment ,  need superior
>> performance and many parts which we need, we have  made by foundries.
>> Numerically controlled oscillators belong to  this and modern IQ
>> modulators and arbitrary wave form generators  are the norm., much better
>> then many analog  type  designs.  Most chips on the market are
>> compromises for power  consumption and  phase noise. We now have fraction
>
> I  worked for HP/Agilent for 35 years, retiring 2 years ago just before
>  the Keysight spinoff.  Yes, they do have proprietary chips made  by
> internal and external foundries (for example my phase  detector).  Other
> than that one case, I was never able to get any  custom
> chips made during my career because of the high NRE cost  and
> the need to have either very high volume, or an extreme  value
> proposition to cover NRE.  There was a small group of  designers
> who designed a handful of fractional-N chips.  The rest  of
> us were merely users of them.  Newer designs have tended  towards
> COTS frac-N chips.  Similarly, there was a small  department of
> designers of NCO's, AWG's, etc (I was in the same lab  with these
> guys), and the rest of the engineers were merely users of  these
> IC's.
>
> So in terms of the book market, it would  be limited to a small
> fraction of the engineers in test and  measurement.  And that
> small fraction probably has already gone  way beyond any
> technology that has made it into textbooks.  A lot  of this
> really advanced work is based on trade secrets that of
>  course will only appear in internal documents.
>

Or is subject to  export controls because of the specific application. 
While you could  probably "generalize" it to get out from under export 
controls, that's a  lot of work.  Ulrich and Rick raise interesting points:

The people  who really know about this stuff do it for a living, all the 
time, and  probably don't have a lot of free time. I've done a couple of 
book  chapters, and it's an enormous amount of work, and that's with  
collaborators and editors to help.  I suspect that  for these  people the 
problem is not a lack of "funding" from the employer, but,  rather, that 
there is more work to do than people to do it.

And,  often, the "state of the art" is either proprietary or subject to 
other  controls on distribution.  Unless you are in a special situation  
(e.g. you own the company, or it's a small company and the owner(s)  
agree), I can see management not seeing the "value added proposition"  
for letting your talented, knowledgable PLL guru work on getting into a  
form suitable for publication: they'd rather you be making  boxes.




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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Yes, we need the same properties  at R&S in Munich 
 
Ulrich , N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 11:15:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
steph@wanadoo.fr writes:

Here at  CERN in particle accelerators we're not looking at the same 
properties for  PLLs than one would require for radiocom.
Two features usually requested  are very low short term phase jitters 
(100fs-1ps) which directly leads  into particule beam stability, as well 
as being able to synchronously  reset the dividers for phase sync. which 
is usually not possible with  integrated PLL ICs like NXP/AD/Hittite 
ones.
This is also an unsual  application which is not representative of mass 
usage of PLLs. RF Phase  stability and synchronization is a key for 
accelerators performance and  thus the approach is different than for 
PLLs I'm designing for  radiocom...

Stephane, F1TJJ

-- Message d'origine  --
De : "jimlux" 
À :  time-nuts@febo.com
Envoyé 08/03/2016 14:30:51
Objet : Re: [time-nuts]  PLL book 3rd edition

>On 3/8/16 12:19 AM, Stéphane Rey  wrote:
>>Hi Rick,
>>
>>There are hopefully many  applications where monolythics PLL can't
>>achieve the requested  functionalitities or performances so that there  
>>is
>>still room to build block PLLs. I'm still desiging  such things for my
>>job for instance.
>>
>
>As  do we at JPL.  In fact, I'd say that given the advent of more  
>"software driven" radios, with things like PLLs with DDS or NCO in the  
>loop, having a text that covers performance on an analytical basis is  
>useful.
>
>However, it's a pretty darn small market.  (Considering we do a "new 
>design" every 5-10  years)
>
>And, we use the data sheets and ap notes as a much as  we'd use the 
>textbook.
>
>What is really hard to find is  good data on the noise properties of the 
>other components.   Everyone makes noise plots for the oscillators and 
>amplifiers and  publishes them.  For instance, what about the noise 
>added by the  Phase Frequency Detector - that's not a spec that shows up 
>on the data  sheet. (but does get discussed here on  time-nuts)
>
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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

yes, but the underlying math and system architecture  will/would be 
exciting.
 
Thanks, for the comments, Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 11:29:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:



On 3/8/2016 3:18 AM, ka2...@aol.com wrote:
> Good  Morning,
> technically you are correct, most buy what they find and live  with a
> compromise. But companies like mine, R&S, test equipment ,  need superior
> performance and many parts which we need, we have made  by foundries.
> Numerically controlled oscillators belong to this and  modern IQ
> modulators and arbitrary wave form generators are the norm.,  much better
> then many analog  type designs.  Most chips on  the market are
> compromises for power consumption and  phase  noise. We now have fraction

I worked for HP/Agilent for 35 years,  retiring 2 years ago just before
the Keysight spinoff.  Yes, they do  have proprietary chips made by 
internal and external foundries (for  example my phase detector).  Other 
than that one case, I was never  able to get any custom
chips made during my career because of the high NRE  cost and
the need to have either very high volume, or an extreme  value
proposition to cover NRE.  There was a small group of  designers
who designed a handful of fractional-N chips.  The rest  of
us were merely users of them.  Newer designs have tended  towards
COTS frac-N chips.  Similarly, there was a small department  of
designers of NCO's, AWG's, etc (I was in the same lab with  these
guys), and the rest of the engineers were merely users of  these
IC's.

So in terms of the book market, it would be limited to a  small
fraction of the engineers in test and measurement.  And  that
small fraction probably has already gone way beyond any
technology  that has made it into textbooks.  A lot of this
really advanced work  is based on trade secrets that of
course will only appear in internal  documents.

Rick

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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Yes, and an extension of my book should address these issues 
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2016 10:02:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jim...@earthlink.net writes:

On  3/8/16 12:19 AM, Stéphane Rey wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> There  are hopefully many applications where monolythics PLL can't
> achieve  the requested functionalitities or performances so that there is
> still  room to build block PLLs. I'm still desiging such things for my
> job  for instance.
>

As do we at JPL.  In fact, I'd  say that given the advent of more 
"software driven" radios, with things  like PLLs with DDS or NCO in the 
loop, having a text that covers  performance on an analytical basis is 
useful.

However, it's a  pretty darn small market. (Considering we do a "new 
design" every 5-10  years)

And, we use the data sheets and ap notes as a much as we'd use  the 
textbook.

What is really hard to find is good data on the noise  properties of the 
other components.  Everyone makes noise plots for  the oscillators and 
amplifiers and publishes them.  For instance,  what about the noise added 
by the Phase Frequency Detector - that's not a  spec that shows up on the 
data sheet. (but does get discussed here on  time-nuts)

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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good Morning,
 
technically you are correct, most buy what they find and live with a  
compromise. But companies like mine, R&S, test equipment , need superior  
performance and many parts which we need, we have made by foundries. 
Numerically  
controlled oscillators belong to this and modern IQ modulators and arbitrary  
wave form generators are the norm., much better then many analog  type  
designs.  Most chips on the market are compromises for power consumption  and  
phase noise. We now have fraction and integer chips with a noise floor  of 
-172 dBc/Hz up to 22 GHz and many  MHz off and these require  careful planing 
and are needed for high end test equipments. But maybe my  application is 
too special . For me Hittite takes too much power and all these  companies 
make nice parts nut not really leading edge parts. Keysight could  not build 
many "boxes" without their own designs, architecture and  hardware like 
oscillators  
 
Thanks, Ulrich .
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/7/2016 10:33:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

I know  for me, I mainly use the "synthesizer on a chip" IC's
from Analog  Devices/Hittite and National.  Their data sheets
and ap notes serve as  the "textbook".  I'm not sure there
will be much call going forward  for a book on fundamentals
that explains how to design synthesizers from  first
principles using basic building blocks.  Having  designed
PLL's for over 40 years, I know all about how to do this,
yet  is now a nearly useless skill with the IC's now available.
Only the IC  designers themselves need these skills.
Occasionally I find myself  mentoring these guys in the
hope of getting better chips to buy :-)   (I have a
patent on a phase detector design that was made into
a chip,  but the chip is built by Keysight's captive
foundry which doesn't sell much  to the merchant market.)

No criticism of the book; it's just a market  issue.

Rick N6RK

On 3/7/2016 4:52 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts  wrote:
> To all :
>
> I have published the following  book
>
> " Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and Design,  Ulrich L.  
Rohde,
> John Wiley & Sons, August 1997, ISBN   0-471-52019-5."
>
> and  have since kind of drifted into the  VCO und high stability
> oscillators.
> The  first  edition
>
> "Digital PLL Frequency Synthesizers - Theory and  Design, Ulrich L.  
Rohde,
> Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs,  NJ, January 1983  "
>
> has sold more then 10 000 copies. Is  there any of you out  there who 
would
> like to take over a needed  update and take over the resulting  revenues 
and
> unfortunately  also the work and glory and who feels qualified to so  ?
>
>  As I am more or less now in microwave technology and less in  PLL IC's,  
I
> hate to see this standard textbook disappear Who can help  or  want to
> take over?
>
>  Ulrich
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message  dated 3/2/2016 12:04:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> time-nuts@febo.com  writes:
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/16/2016  9:03:59 A.M. Eastern  Standard Time,
> time-nuts@febo.com   writes:.
>
>  http://www.synergymwave.com/articles/2016/calculation-of-fm-and-am.pdf
>  ___
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>

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Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

To all :
 
I have published the following book 
 
" Microwave and Wireless Synthesizers: Theory and Design, Ulrich L.  Rohde, 
John Wiley & Sons, August 1997, ISBN  0-471-52019-5."
 
and  have since kind of drifted into the VCO und high stability  
oscillators.
The  first edition 
 
"Digital PLL Frequency Synthesizers - Theory and Design, Ulrich L.  Rohde, 
Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 1983  "
 
has sold more then 10 000 copies. Is there any of you out  there who would 
like to take over a needed update and take over the resulting  revenues and 
unfortunately also the work and glory and who feels qualified to so  ?
 
As I am more or less now in microwave technology and less in  PLL IC's, I 
hate to see this standard textbook disappear Who can help or  want to 
take over?
 
Ulrich 






In a message dated 3/2/2016 12:04:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:




In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:03:59 A.M. Eastern  Standard Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com  writes:.

http://www.synergymwave.com/articles/2016/calculation-of-fm-and-am.pdf
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[time-nuts] AM-FM noise

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

 
In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:03:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
time-nuts@febo.com writes:.
 
http://www.synergymwave.com/articles/2016/calculation-of-fm-and-am.pdf
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[time-nuts] http://www.arrl.org/news/ieee-microwave-theory-and-techniques-society-honors-ulr

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/25845-dr-ulrich-l-rohde-receives-20
16-microwave-application-award
 
 
 
My  team and I will continue to work on ultra-low noise oscillators by 
applying  "Möbius Strips and Metamaterial Symmetry: Theory and Applications" 
for 
mm wave  applications and other techniques using different resonators like  
multiple  coupled resonators  and  my special hobby low noise crystal  
oscillators but not as a product but understanding  the complete physics .  
Ulrich
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Did my plot make it ?  Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
r...@nc0b.com writes:

I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 
the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be 
something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier 
 frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better 
than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I 
have never used or measured an  8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after 
the  3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on 
the 20 meter band.



It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  
On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a 
receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most  
generators.



Rob,  NC0B







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Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Typically,one should not look at just on offset point,  Here is an  example.
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
r...@nc0b.com writes:

I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 
the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be 
something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier 
 frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better 
than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I 
have never used or measured an  8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after 
the  3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on 
the 20 meter band.



It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  
On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a 
receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most  
generators.



Rob,  NC0B







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Re: [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I find it difficult in NJ to find  seasoned RF engineers...Ulrich
 
 
In a message dated 11/11/2015 9:02:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi

Well, if you sit down with a bunch of these people and  talk to them, you 
find out some interesting things:

1) When the job  postings go up, there aren’t many that ask about resistors 
and capacitors.  They all ask about
firmware and processors.  The ratio is at least  10:1.

2) If you hold out for that job and go on the interview trip …  surprise … 
it’s a sales job *selling* resistors or 
capacitors or something  similar.That’s about a 4:1.

3) You hold out and keep on looking for  that job. You land one. You start 
out all excited. A year later you  look
around. Everybody else got a bump in pay at the end of the year. You  ask 
and the answer is “they work on 
important stuff, you just do the easy  stuff”.  I’ve heard that about 100% 
of the time (from both 
sides of  the divide).  

H …. so what choice would *you* make in that  job market?  And yes, 
this is a (possibly biased) sample
across  several dozen people a year over the last ten or so years. Some of 
them have  kept in touch and I’ve
been able to follow their up’s and downs. Some work  for the biggest of the 
big. Some work for the smallest of the
small. All of  them are US based. 

Hmmm … so now how do you feel about “guiding” them  to learn more about 
hardware …I *know* how I feel. 

Bob

> On  Nov 11, 2015, at 6:26 PM, Rob Sherwood.  wrote:
>  
> The EE department at the University of Colorado has an enlightened  
professor.  
> 
>  http://ecee.colorado.edu/faculty/popovic.html
> 
> Zoya required  her students to not only get a ham license, but to build a 
Norcal 40A.   
> 
>  http://ecee.colorado.edu/~ecen2420/Files/NorCal40A_Manual.pdf
> 
>  
> Most of the EE students had no idea what a resistor really was, let  
alone have any experience in soldering a resistor or capacitor on a PC board.  
One student stuffed the PC board, bent all the leads 90 degrees without  
cutting any of them off, and then in effect flow soldered the whole bottom of  
the PC board!
> 
> One wonders how EE grads today can actually get  a job and be productive 
with so little hands-on experience.
> 
>  Zoya belongs to the Boulder (Colorado) Amateur Radio Club, and our 
monthly  meetings are in the EE department. It is too bad this is likely an 
unusual  example of what happens on campuses today.  
> 
> Rob
>  NC0B  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From:  time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete  
Lancashire
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:01 AM
> To:  Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A
> 
> 
> 
> I  can understand the downsizing, someday it will happen to me. And where 
I live  there is pretty much zero interest in anything electronic. The two 
local  schools Portland State and Reed both have EE but the students done 
seem to  have any interest in anything physical. they believe everything they 
need or  have interest in can be simulated on a computer. I helped one of 
the PSU EE's  one day, just finished his 2nd year, had an old Kenwood stereo 
distorted left  output. He pretty much had no idea what to do, and when 'we' 
found the bad  transistor, he didn't really know how to replace it.
> 
> BTW I  know a Comp Sci graduate from PSU that can not write a program in 
any language  that outputs "Hello World"
> 
> -pete Sad
> 
> On Thu,  May 23, 2013 at 5:08 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>  
>> Bill
>> It is unfortunate when the time comes to  downsize. Even worse as time 
>> goes by at least for me each piece  of test equipment from HP seems to 
>> get heavier. Must be dust  building up inside. So as Ed says if you 
>> need that fine grain  resolution you need them.
>> But you are also running into the age  thing in the gear and that there 
>> are failures that creep in that  are really a big problem to figure out.
>> Especially if some form of  programmable logics involved.
>> Lastly sending them to the dumpster  is the worst thing. But then the 
>> ole reality really sets in  selling packing and shipping the stuff.
>> I guess the good news is  that today there is a lot of replacement gear 
>> that will do  reasonably well thats cheap respectively consumes little 
>> power  and can easily be controlled by usb so you don't have to 
>> actually  stop experimenting.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>>  WB8TSL
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 2:32 AM,  ed breya  wrote:
>> 
>>> You don't  save these kinds of synthesizers for high frequency 
>>> coverage,  but for their 10 to 11 digit frequency resolution. If you 
>>>  anticipate needing that, then of course they should be kept and  
>>> fixed. The long-obsolete telecom standard connectors and  ranges are 
>>> pretty much useless - sacrifice that one first if  you need parts for 
the others.
>>> 
>>> If you need to  justify keeping them, you can use them for practi

Re: [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I know Zoya for many years, this ham business is a good idea.Give her my  
best regards , Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 11/11/2015 7:00:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
r...@nc0b.com writes:

The EE  department at the University of Colorado has an enlightened 
professor.   

http://ecee.colorado.edu/faculty/popovic.html

Zoya required her  students to not only get a ham license, but to build a 
Norcal 40A.   

http://ecee.colorado.edu/~ecen2420/Files/NorCal40A_Manual.pdf


Most  of the EE students had no idea what a resistor really was, let alone 
have any  experience in soldering a resistor or capacitor on a PC board. One 
student  stuffed the PC board, bent all the leads 90 degrees without 
cutting any of  them off, and then in effect flow soldered the whole bottom of 
the 
PC  board!

One wonders how EE grads today can actually get a job and be  productive 
with so little hands-on experience.

Zoya belongs to the  Boulder (Colorado) Amateur Radio Club, and our monthly 
meetings are in the EE  department. It is too bad this is likely an unusual 
example of what happens on  campuses today.  

Rob
NC0B  


-Original  Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf  Of Pete 
Lancashire
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:01 AM
To:  Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re:  [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A



I can understand the  downsizing, someday it will happen to me. And where I 
live there is pretty  much zero interest in anything electronic. The two 
local schools Portland  State and Reed both have EE but the students done seem 
to have any interest in  anything physical. they believe everything they 
need or have interest in can  be simulated on a computer. I helped one of the 
PSU EE's one day, just  finished his 2nd year, had an old Kenwood stereo 
distorted left output. He  pretty much had no idea what to do, and when 'we' 
found the bad transistor, he  didn't really know how to replace it.

BTW I know a Comp Sci graduate  from PSU that can not write a program in 
any language that outputs "Hello  World"

-pete Sad

On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 5:08 AM, paul swed   wrote:

> Bill
> It is unfortunate  when the time comes to downsize. Even worse as time 
> goes by at least  for me each piece of test equipment from HP seems to 
> get heavier.  Must be dust building up inside. So as Ed says if you 
> need that fine  grain resolution you need them.
> But you are also running into the age  thing in the gear and that there 
> are failures that creep in that are  really a big problem to figure out.
> Especially if some form of  programmable logics involved.
> Lastly sending them to the dumpster is  the worst thing. But then the 
> ole reality really sets in selling  packing and shipping the stuff.
> I guess the good news is that today  there is a lot of replacement gear 
> that will do reasonably well thats  cheap respectively consumes little 
> power and can easily be controlled  by usb so you don't have to 
> actually stop experimenting.
>  Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Thu, May 23,  2013 at 2:32 AM, ed breya  wrote:
>
> >  You don't save these kinds of synthesizers for high frequency 
> >  coverage, but for their 10 to 11 digit frequency resolution. If you 
>  > anticipate needing that, then of course they should be kept and 
>  > fixed. The long-obsolete telecom standard connectors and ranges are  
> > pretty much useless - sacrifice that one first if you need parts  for 
the others.
> >
> > If you need to justify keeping them,  you can use them for practical 
> > everyday applications. For  example, each one can store a telephone
> number -
> > as long  as the power doesn't go out.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>  >
> > __**_
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> >
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a

Re: [time-nuts] Low noise quartz crystal oscillator by Bruce Griffiths

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Yes, more the termination  Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/28/2015 9:02:56 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi,

It is well worth mentioning that a crystal filter on the  output can 
become a challenge, as the source impedance can be far from 50  Ohm, and 
thus a bit of a challenge depending on how you  measure.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 10/28/2015 06:11 AM, Bruce  Griffiths wrote:
> Ulrich
>
> Surely you meant to  write
>
> PN(SSB) = -177 -Pout + NF
>
> If we attempt  to apply this equation to the 10811A for which you 
measured a PN floor of  -174dBc/Hz
> this implies that
>
> NF - Pout =  3dB
>
> Best case (NF = 0dB - unlikely! Pout would need to be much  higher for 
nonn zero NF)
>
> Pout =-3dBm or 500uW.
>
>  The question is identifying this power.
> The crystal dissipation is  50uW (HP Journal March 1981 p24)
> The signal power dissipated in the CB  stage input R is around 10% of 
this or about 5uW.
>
> The answer  to this conundrum is surely that the equation for PN doesn't 
apply directly in  this case
> for offset frequencies outside the crystal  bandwidth.
> The Crystal actually bandpass filters the signal and PN  noise generated 
by oscillator.
> For offset frequencies outside the  crystal bandwidth the oscillator 
generated PN is greatly attenuated
> so  that the noise of the buffer amplifier chain (CB stage plus output 
amplifiers)  dominates.
> In calculating the noise floor of the buffer amplifier  chain the fact 
that the crystal has
> a high impedance at these  frequencies should be taken into account.
>
>  Bruce
>
>
>   On Wednesday, 28  October 2015 8:34 AM, "ka2...@aol.com" 
  wrote:
>
>
>   I have bought and measured the  hp10811 at about -174dBc/Hz. The 
interesting  thing is  the feedback  capacitor from collector to base which 
changes Rin=1/gm. Unless the circuit  has a hidden Q mulitplier the PN (SSB) 
can 
never be better then 177 (kT) in  dBm  + Pout  in dBm - NF of the oscillator 
transistor. Many of the  GB stages are potentially unstable , so the 
"hopeful' best PN (SSB) is 177dbm  + Pout ! AT 100 Mhz the leaing values are 
-146/100Hz offset  and - 183  far out and high crystal dissipation, 2mW or so  
Ulrich  In a  message dated 10/27/2015 4:17:16 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time,  
bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes:
> As Rick has pointed out numerous  times when the output signal is 
extracted via the crystal by a CB stage (or  cascade thereof) the PN floor is 
determined by the ratio of the amplifier  equivalent input noise current to the 
crystal current. That is the amplifier  equivalent input noise current at 
frequencies for which the crystal impedance  is high. If one neglects this 
crucial point one comes to the conclusion (e.g.  see Eq 4.-1 page 274 of Ulrich 
Rohde's: Microwave and Wireless Synthesisers  Theory and Design.) that with 
a crystal current of 1.4mA rms and a crystal esr  of 50 ohms that the XO PN 
floor cannot be lower than -154dBc/Hz.  Even  the XO circuit in the ARRL 
handbook (attributed to Ulrich) using this method  of signal extraction has a 
measured PN floor of -168dBc/Hz.  Many other  XO's (including the 10811A 
which uses a crystal current of 1mA ) have an  actual PN significantly lower 
than this.  One would have thought that  this glaring discrepancy between 
"theory" and practice
would
>   have been noticed and corrected by now.
>  Bruce
>
>
>   On Tuesday, 27 October  2015 6:01 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
  wrote:
>
>
> The oscillator transistor and buffer amplifier  are basically
> the same as the HP 10811, except for the absence of  mode
> suppressors.  The difference here is that the  oscillator
> self limits in the oscillator transistor, whereas the  10811
> has ALC.  The discontinuous operation of the  transistor,
> as explained by Driscoll some 45 years ago, is  undesirable
> because it increases the load resistance the crystal  sees.
> The 2 transistor "Driscoll oscillator" fixes this  problem
> by using an additional stage that limits instead of  the
> oscillator transistor.  This has been widely used for
>  decades.  It is interesting to note that the 10811 ALC
> works by  varying the DC bias current in the oscillator
> transistor.  This  is in contrast to the elaborate DC
> bias current stabilization  here.
>
> I have demonstrated that the close in phase noise  in
> the 10811 is entirely due to the flicker noise of the
>  crystal.  The only place where the 10811 circuit comes
> into play  is beyond 1 kHz from the carrier, where the
> Burgoon patent circuit  (which apparently has prior art
> from Ulrich Rhode) reduces the phase  noise floor.  I
> have built two different oscillator circuits for  10811
> crystals and have measured the flicker noise as being
>  the same as the intrinsic noise of the crystal.
>
> Thus,  obsessing over noise in oscillators circuits may
> be overkill, unless  you are planning to use a much
> better crystal (BVA, etc).  OTOH,  it might be advantageous
> to improve

Re: [time-nuts] Low noise quartz crystal oscillator by Bruce Griffiths

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

This oscillator seems to have been more a frequency standard then a noise  
standard. Today's 10 MHz oscillators are different/better, such a crystal is 
no  longer available/made.
 
I have more experience with 100 MHz, 125 and 128 MHz. Once I am back in the 
 USA  I will send some measured results and comments. 
 
Thank for this reference :
 
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1981-03.pdf
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/28/2015 7:01:16 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time,  
hmur...@megapathdsl.net writes:


rich...@karlquist.com said:
> The 2N5179 in the 10811 is  selected for minimum beta and Ft at 20 mA, 
which
> is the start up  condition due to the ALC being at full gain.  It has a
> special HP  part number, so you wouldn't know this just looking at the 
parts
> list.  

How much of a difference does that selection step make?

I'd  expect the parts within a batch to be very similar, more so for mature 
 
parts.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate  spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise quartz crystal oscillator by Bruce Griffiths

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I have bought and measured the hp10811 at about -174dBc/Hz.  The 
interesting  thing is  the feedback capacitor from collector  to base which 
changes 
Rin=1/gm.
 
Unless the circuit has a hidden Q mulitplier the PN (SSB) can never be  
better then 177 (kT) in dBm  + Pout  in dBm - NF of the  oscillator transistor. 
Many of the GB stages are potentially unstable , so the  "hopeful' best PN 
(SSB) is 177dbm + Pout !
 
AT 100 Mhz the leaing values are -146/100Hz offset  and - 183 far out  and 
high crystal dissipation, 2mW or so 
 
Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 10/27/2015 4:17:16 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time,  
bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes:

As Rick  has pointed out numerous times when the output signal is extracted 
via the  crystal by a CB stage (or cascade thereof) the PN floor is 
determined by the  ratio of the amplifier equivalent input noise current to the 
crystal current.  That is the amplifier equivalent input noise current at 
frequencies for which  the crystal impedance is high. If one neglects this 
crucial point one comes to  the conclusion (e.g. see Eq 4.-1 page 274 of Ulrich 
Rohde's: Microwave and  Wireless Synthesisers Theory and Design.) that with a 
crystal current of 1.4mA  rms and a crystal esr of 50 ohms that the XO PN 
floor cannot be lower than  -154dBc/Hz.  Even the XO circuit in the ARRL 
handbook (attributed to  Ulrich) using this method of signal extraction has a 
measured PN floor of  -168dBc/Hz.  Many other XO's (including the 10811A  which 
uses a crystal current of 1mA ) have an actual PN significantly lower  than 
this.  One would have thought that this glaring discrepancy  between 
"theory" and practice would have been noticed and corrected by  now.
Bruce 


On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 6:01  PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
  wrote:


The oscillator transistor and buffer amplifier  are basically
the same as the HP 10811, except for the absence of  mode
suppressors.  The difference here is that the oscillator
self  limits in the oscillator transistor, whereas the 10811
has ALC.  The  discontinuous operation of the transistor,
as explained by Driscoll some 45  years ago, is undesirable
because it increases the load resistance the  crystal sees.
The 2 transistor "Driscoll oscillator" fixes this  problem
by using an additional stage that limits instead of  the
oscillator transistor.  This has been widely used  for
decades.  It is interesting to note that the 10811 ALC
works by  varying the DC bias current in the oscillator
transistor.  This is in  contrast to the elaborate DC
bias current stabilization here.

I have  demonstrated that the close in phase noise in
the 10811 is entirely due to  the flicker noise of the
crystal.  The only place where the 10811  circuit comes
into play is beyond 1 kHz from the carrier, where  the
Burgoon patent circuit (which apparently has prior art
from Ulrich  Rhode) reduces the phase noise floor.  I
have built two different  oscillator circuits for 10811
crystals and have measured the flicker noise  as being
the same as the intrinsic noise of the crystal.

Thus,  obsessing over noise in oscillators circuits may
be overkill, unless you  are planning to use a much
better crystal (BVA, etc).  OTOH, it might  be advantageous
to improve the reverse isolation by adding  additional
grounded base buffer stages.  There are various  NBS/NIST
papers where several grounded base stages are cascaded.
I did  this in the HP 10816 rubidium standard.

It is good to see time-nuts  learning about oscillator
circuit by building them.

Rick Karlquist  N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] Stanford Research 725

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good Morning, link does not work, Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/30/2015 9:00:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi  Ulrich,

On 08/30/2015 09:58 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
>  This is the measured phase noise of the 10 MHz output. Not quite state  
of
> the art but stable frequency .
>
> Any other data of  other oscillator available ?   73 de Ulrich

For the fun of it  I did a few quick and dirty measurements some time 
back, with plots like  these:
https://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/timelab/OSA8600_HP5065A_OSA8600_201
20618_1.png

White-noise  isn't spectacular on them, but 1/f^3 isn't too shabby.

With some  clean-up I should be able to do some more of these.

73 de Magnus  SA0MAD
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[time-nuts] HP 10811-60165 Double Oven

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Who can help me with the connection information ?
 
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-10811-60165-Double-Oven-CRYSTAL-OSCILLATOR-10Mhz-
/281062658455

 
 
Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/13/2015 4:10:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

OK I can  contribute at least something.
Given the popular REF1 thread. Ebay has some  15 pin connectors that appear
to be whats needed 10 for $3.49 shipping from  China makes it $5.50. The all
sell singles at 99 cents.
I ordered a set  today and should see them in several weeks.
Granted they are not the longer  pin connectors on the official plugs but I
suspect that does not matter for  time-nuts use.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at  4:15 PM, Don Latham  wrote:

> Re the Ref-0  Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference
> between  PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words?
>  Don
>
> Bob Camp
> > Hi
> >
> > Yes,  Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words 
dump
>  from
> > pForth.
> >
> > Bob
> >
>  >
> >> On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham   wrote:
> >>
> >> Excellent.  The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's
>  going
> >> on?
> >>
> >> Bob Camp
>  >>> Hi
> >
> >  ___
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> >
>  >
>
>
> --
> "If you don't know what it is,
>  don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>  ---
> "Noli sinere nothos te  opprimere"
>
> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLC,  17850 Six Mile Road
> Huson, MT, 59846
> mailing address:   POBox 404
> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
>
> VOX  406-626-4304
> CEL 406-241-5093
> Skype: buffler2
>  www.lightningforensics.com
>  www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP10811 vs 00105 OCXO

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

How good or bad is the 10811 and which one on   ebay   is a better choice ? 
I am looking for a very goo 5 MHz crystal oscillator  with documentation .
 
Thanks, Ulrich N1UL 
 
 
In a message dated 8/8/2015 7:16:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
kb...@n1k.org writes:

Hi

Ok, so John’s observation was the correct one. The data  we are looking at 
is *not* the
performance of the OCXO’s but the strange  behavior of the counter at short 
ADEV Tau’s. 

Sorry for my bashing your  poor 10811.

Bob

> On Aug 8, 2015, at 12:25 PM,  tim...@timeok.it wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I try to  ansver to all you:
> 
> Luciano, how was the blue trace taken? Is  this from your DMTD project? 
If so, it's looking promising.
> The green  and magenta traces are definitely in the right ballpark for 
measurements on a  5370-class counter. At 3E-11 @ t=12s the magenta trace is 
optimistic but not  outrageously so, while the green trace looks exactly like 
I'd expect for a  typical 10811 measured on a 5370. The observed noise is 
due entirely to the  counter until about t=200s. We see a glimpse of the 
10811's typical ADEV at  about 250 seconds, just before either drift or ADEV 
uncertainty causes the  trace to turn upwards. A longer run would be needed to 
distinguish between  these two situations.
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design  LLC
> 
> r: no, all the measurements are taken using an  HP53132A  in frequency 
mode. The difference can be the gate time. Using 1  second the resolution is 
lower than using 2 Second that permit the max  counter  resolution.
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well an  un-stated assumption of mine was that they all came from the 
same measurement  system and that it
> had the same floor under all  circumstances….
> 
> Bob
> 
> r: all the measurements  are under the same conditions except for the 
gate time of the counter.
>  
> Hi Luciano,
> 
> Can you give me the link to your ADEV  posting image about 10811 vs 105 
oscillators?  I had it and now can't  seem to find it.  I wanted to look at 
your plots as I read John Miles'  comments.  Many thanks.  
> 
> I have two very high  performing HP10811-60109 OCXO units which I got 
from Corby. 
> 
>  Many thanks.
> 
> Jim Robbins
> N1JR
> 
> r:  Jim, I will load soon some files on my site. The 105B I have is a 
fantastic  exception, unfortunately it have a defect, may be a bad  solder 
inside  cause randomly a phase jump and return to the original phase trend, so 
all The  long term ADEV are distorted by this problem I have to fix.
> 
>  Tom VB, i will do all the cross measurements on 10811, 00105 and 
rubidium I  have and i will upload they but I need time to do this.
> Unfortunately  I have only the HP53132A as TIC and my best reference are 
four HP5065A. I  normally use the counter function because the TI function 
on 1 PPS have 100  time less resolution.
> Will be interesting doing also the Phase noise  tests. I will do it.
> please see:  
http://www.timeok.it/files/time_and_frequency_house_standard_201r.pdf
>  
> Luciano
> www.timeok.it
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> On Sat 08/08/15 02:23 , Bob Camp   wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Well an un-stated  assumption of mine was that they all came from the 
same
>>  measurement system and that it
>> had the same floor under all  circumstances….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On  Aug 7, 2015, at 5:21 PM, John Miles  wrote:
>>>  
 Hi
 
 If that data  is correct, then the 10811 you have is defective.
  Bob
>>> 
>>> Well... some of the data is reasonable  for a scenario where a counter 
is
>> being used to measure  OCXOs.
>>> 
>>> Looking at the ADEV plot, I'd say the  blue trace (HP105B vs 5065A) is
>> the most questionable one if it  came from a standalone TIC or frequency
>> counter, because 7E-12 @  t=1s isn't achievable with most counters under
>> most circumstances.  A Wavecrest box can measure at that level if it's 
set
>> up  _perfectly_ to take bursts of 100+ wrap-free averages within a  small
>> fraction of the t0 interval. It might also be doable with an  HP 5370A/B
>> under similar conditions, but I'd have less confidence  that the 
averaging
>> isn't distorting the measurement. So while It  looks like a valid
>> measurement of an OCXO with some minor  crosstalk or other external
>> interference, that may just be a  coincidence.
>>> 
>>> Luciano, how was the blue trace  taken? Is this from your DMTD project?
>> If so, it's looking  promising.
>>> 
>>> The green and magenta traces are  definitely in the right ballpark for
>> measurements on a 5370-class  counter. At 3E-11 @ t=12s the magenta 
trace is
>> optimistic but not  outrageously so, while the green trace looks exactly
>> like I'd  expect for a typical 10811 measured on a 5370. The observed 
noise
>>  is due entirely to the counter until about t=200s. We see a glimpse of  
the
>> 10811's typical ADEV at about 250 seconds, just before either  drift or 
ADEV
>> uncertainty causes the trace to turn upwards. A  longer run would be 
needed
>> to distinguish between these two  situations.
>>> 

Re: [time-nuts] Everything you wanted to know about Oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

These are  better summary papers :
 
 
http://www.qsl.net/va3iul/Phase%20noise%20in%20Oscillators.pdf
 
 
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.309.5449&rep=rep1&t
ype=pdf
 
73 de Ulrich N1UL
 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/2/2015 6:24:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
ka2...@aol.com writes:

well, the Pierce oscillator does not give that much freedom, the steady  
state loop gain should be Pi  (about 3) as the RF Gm = Gmo/pi.
 
 
 
This analysis does not address the important SSB noise  gut  guaranties 
oscillation. 
 
In testing enough   a loaded Ql of Qp/2 is best for  power matching and 
good phase noise.
 
Too much loading no selectivity, not enough loading  too much  resonator 
insertion loss, far off noise. Life is full of compromises.
 
73 de Ulrich N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 8/2/2015 6:06:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bpl...@outlook.com writes:

Interesting  video.

http://hackaday
.com/2015/08/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-oscillators/

-=Bryan=-
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Re: [time-nuts] Everything you wanted to know about Oscillators

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

well, the Pierce oscillator does not give that much freedom, the steady  
state loop gain should be Pi  (about 3) as the RF Gm = Gmo/pi.
 
 
 
This analysis does not address the important SSB noise  gut guaranties  
oscillation. 
 
In testing enough   a loaded Ql of Qp/2 is best for  power matching and 
good phase noise.
 
Too much loading no selectivity, not enough loading  too much  resonator 
insertion loss, far off noise. Life is full of compromises.
 
73 de Ulrich N1UL
 
 
In a message dated 8/2/2015 6:06:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bpl...@outlook.com writes:

Interesting  video.

http://hackaday.com/2015/08/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-oscillato
rs/

-=Bryan=-   
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Re: [time-nuts] how to find low noise transistors

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good questions , I am looking forward to the answers, this is  my area of 
work ... Ulrich N1UL 
 
 
In a message dated 7/28/2015 1:45:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
dk...@arcor.de writes:

Am  20.07.2015 um 01:57 schrieb KA2WEU--- via time-nuts:
> Good evening,  this turns out to be a good discussion...
>   
> Any  more inputs ?  73 de Ulrich
>   
>

1. To get  a gut feeling about the virtues of nonlinear noise simulation: 
how much  phase noise will we typically lose if we stay with linear 
simulation? I  mean, we have been told so often how important it is that 
the amplifier  offers a constant (low) impedance to the crystal and that 
the smallest  nonlinearity would be an invitation to noise up conversion. 
It does not  take a lot of conversion gain when one looks at -150 dBc. 
So, even if we  use a HB simulator, the DUT will have to be pretty linear.


2. What  do you consider the optimum AGC for, say, a Driscoll or Butler 
at 100 MHz?  In my current work, most of the logic is triple module 
redundant and the  oscillator is a single point of failure. Stopping 
oscillation at an EFC  extreme would be a nightmare, but phase noise 
performance still cannot be  ignored.


3. Is there any work on AGC vs. post tuning  drift?


4. In [1] there are is some treatment about removing 1/f  noise of a RF 
transistor by active LF feedback. It is applied to a BFR93A  and the 
effect can be seen clearly. There are other faster transistors  that 
would need that much more urgently, and for > 40 dB of 1/f noise  
probably more loop gain would be required. I can see a place for an  
ADA4898 here… Also, there are 1K resistors in the bases of both the RF  
and the AF transistors while we are discussing here replicating the  
transistors to shrink the effective base spreading resistance. It seems  
that the improvement could be much larger.


BTW I got -145dBc  @100MHz @100Hz with mass production BFR93 transistors 
in Butlers, and the  limit seemed to be ONLY the crystal; most crystals 
were much worse, even  when they had comparable parameters and were from 
the same  batch.


5. One must always find a balance between optimum close-in  or far-out 
noise. The emitter input impedance of a 2 stage Butler  sustaining 
amplifier may serve as an example. Make it small and there will  be only 
a slight operating Q degradation - but less power available to the  input 
of the sustaining amp. with a given crystal current; needing more  gain 
and raising the floor.
Make it larger, and you get less operating  Q and better floor.

Only 10% of a crystal batch seem to provide  excellent close-in noise, 
the others being easily 10 dB worse. These  others are more or less free 
(at least already paid for). They still could  be used as a post-filter 
to shrink the noise floor. It would be necessary  to de-Q them with 
resistors so that they can withstand the power and that  they do not 
spoil the close-in noise.

Or use a bridge xtal filter  that has no crystal resonance on the center 
frequency. That would require  some discipline when tuning the oscillator 
to avoid blowing the filter  crystals. Far out the noise still would 
decrease by 6 dB/oct  Fourier-frequency-wise. 20 dB better makes the 
difference between OK and  excellent.

[1] Rohde/Newkirk: RF/Microwave Circuit Design for Wireless  
Applications, Wiley

very short excerpt for a few days on <  
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XUfeAuD8TvNqBOMuJiPtltMTjNZETYmyPJy0li
ipFm0?feat=directlink>

73,  Gerhard, DK4XP
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Re: [time-nuts] how to find low noise transistors

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

73 de Ulrich, N1UL 
 
 
 
 
Update  on crysral oscillators
 
 
Techniques  minimize the phase noise in crystal oscillator circuits
Poddar, A.K. ;  Rohde, U.L. 
Frequency  Control Symposium (FCS), 2012 IEEE International 
DOI:  10.1109/FCS.2012.6243701 
Publication Year: 2012 , Page(s):  1 - 7 
Cited by: Papers  (1)
IEEE CONFERENCE PUBLICATIONS




Full text access may be  available. Click article title to sign in or learn 
about subscription  options.How Low Can They Go?: Oscillator Phase Noise 
Model, Theoretical,  Experimental Validation, and Phase Noise Measurements
Poddar, A.K. ; Rohde,  U.L. ; Apte, A.M. 
Microwave  Magazine, IEEE 
Volume: 14 ,  Issue: 6 
DOI:  10.1109/MMM.2013.2269859 
Publication Year: 2013 , Page(s):  50 - 72 
Cited by: Papers  (4)
IEEE JOURNALS & MAGAZINES




Getting Its Measure:  Oscillator Phase Noise Measurement Techniques and 
Limitations
Rohde, U.L. ;  Poddar, A.K. ; Apte, A.M. 
Microwave Magazine, IEEE 
Volume: 14 , Issue: 6 
DOI:  10.1109/MMM.2013.2269860 
Publication Year: 2013 , Page(s):  73 - 86 
Cited by: Papers  (5)






 
_Reply With  Quote_ 
(http://www.edaboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1442491) 


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Re: [time-nuts] how to find low noise transistors

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Good evening, this turns out to be a good discussion... 
 
Any more inputs ?  73 de Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 7/19/2015 7:13:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

On  7/18/2015 2:16 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
> I always wonder how  you figure out whether a transistor is low noise
> or not. What part of  the datasheet hints at which transistors have low
> noise and which have  not? Even if it's just try and measure, how
> do you find good  candidates to measure?
>
>Attila Kinali
>

For a BJT operating above the 1/f noise  corner, and at non-microwave
frequencies, the noise properties depend only  on RF current gain and
base spreading resistance.  See "Low noise  electronic design" by
Motchenbacher and Fitchen.  RF (not DC) current  gain can be measured the
usual ways, but base spreading resistance has to  be inferred from
noise figure measurements made with low source  resistance.  The
RF current gain is the real fundamental noise  property of the device
that you cannot change.  Fortunately, it can be  determined from the
data sheet, if not directly, then by calculating it  from DC current
gain and F-sub-t, based on the operating frequency.   The low frequency
current noise (above the 1/f corner) is simply equal to  the shot
noise of the DC base current.  The low frequency voltage  noise is
the sum of the Johnson noise that a resistor would have if  its
value were the sum of the base spreading resistance and half  of
r-sub-e.  Where r-sub-e is the "emitter resistance",IE the  effective on 
resistance of the transistor.  Base spreading resistance  can be
overcome by using a sufficiently high source impedance  and/or
paralleling devices (if you can tolerate the additional  capacitance).

At frequencies such as 100 kHz and 10 MHz, it is very  easy to get
a noise figure well below 1 dB with a BJT, so it should be no  great
problem to find a suitable device.

Even lower noise figures  are available with JFET's, which have
noise current equal to the shot noise  of gate current, which is
specified.  The resulting noise current is  negligible for most
devices.  This leaves the noise voltage, which is  just the
Johnson noise of a resistor equal to the channel resistance.
By  scaling to larger devices and/or paralleling devices, this
can be reduced  to arbitrarily low values.  The limiting factor
is the substantial  capacitance of JFET's.  This limits them
to about 1 to 10 MHz, before  high beta BJT's dominate.  I have
observed noise figure of below 0.2  dB in JFET's at 2 MHz.

Below 50 to 100 MHz, MOSFET's and ePHEMT's have  excessive 1/f
noise and are a non starter.  Above the 1/f corner, it  is easy
to get noise figures of a few tenths of a dB with  ePHEMT's.

All of this discussion doesn't address 1/f noise, which  could
be an issue in oscillators and low phase noise amplifiers.
For  that purpose, you are back to characterizing devices yourself.
Putting  negative feedback around the transistor can alleviate
this by reducing  upconversion of noise.

Rick Karlquist  N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] how to find low noise transistors

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

I simply do not belief 5E-15 . Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 7/19/2015 7:12:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
azelio.bori...@gmail.com writes:

Yes, I'm  with Bob Pease: the soldering iron is my best simulation
tool. Nonetheless  it is useful to know how to correctly extract the
coefficients to use in  the best known among the simulation tools. In
one sci.electronics.design  discussion, A. Lakovlev tells to have
determined the KF based on the  datasheet's NF by trials and then
adjusted AF to follow the datasheet's NF  variation with the collector
current. He ended up with KF= 5E-15 and AF=  1.13 for the 2SC3329, also
in this case the AF is greater than 1.

On  Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 4:41 PM,   wrote:
> For  HF to uW oscillators  if find these modeling efforts not adequate .  
Only
> a test circuit will show the prove...
>
> Ulrich  N1UL
>
> In a message dated 7/19/2015 10:36:10 A.M. Eastern  Daylight Time,
> azelio.bori...@gmail.com writes:
>
> For a  method to extract AF and KF try this:
>  <http://joerg-berkner.de/Fachartikel/pdf/2000_AKB_Berkner_1f_noise.pdf>
>
>  see also
>  <http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2270&cont
ext=etd>
>  from page 55, on the parameter extraction for the BJTs
>
> usually  AF is greater than 1, as you can see in this appnote from CEL:
>  <http://www.cel.com/pdf/appnotes/an1026.pdf>
>
> A SILVACO  appnote on how to model for SPICE2 for 1/f (from page 45):
>  <http://www.silvaco.com/content/kbase/noise_modeling.pdf>
>
>  On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 4:59 AM, John Miles   wrote:
>>
>>> -----Original Message-
>>>  From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of  
KA2WEU--
>>> - via time-nuts
>>> Sent: Saturday, July  18, 2015 3:40 PM
>>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>>> Cc:  akpod...@synergymwave.com; alexander.r...@rohde-schwarz.com
>>>  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] how to find low noise  transistors
>>>
>>>  BFG540
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's what I  mean -- both BFG540 and BFG591 have been discontinued by
>>  NXP.  Guess they don't sell enough of them these  days.
>>
>> -- john, KE5FX
>> Miles Design  LLC
>>
>>
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