Re: [time-nuts] Insulation - was: OCXO and Aging
Bob, It's according to what other components are mounted with the OCXO. I have seen HP OCXO's, that are just the metal can type, mounted within a Styrofoam enclosure, with no harmful effects. Now, if there is a board with it made to be mounted in the free air, or where air is circulated by a fan, then the elevated temperature may harm some of the parts, if their operating temperature is exceeded. Mostly, what would be worrisome is electrolytic caps, as ceramic, mica, etc. shouldn't be hurt too much by that amount of heat. Electrolytic caps have an operating temp. range, and one would need to look at that. Resistors, you wouldn't need to worry about, but some semiconductors, especially chips, that need cooling might get overheated. Anyhow, the OCXO's that are made solely within a metal can, can be operated this way, since the can and internal insulation traps the heat inside anyhow. On the test you ran, I think if an internal core temperature was read at the crystal, you would find it around 118 degrees all the time. The 105 degree temperature is what one would read after the ambient air has cooled off the case/can somewhat, but it would be hotter on the other side of the heater, towards the crystal, as the OCXO's internal insulation would be between the heater and the outer can. That's my guess at it, but the Styrofoam insulation just kept the whole thing at, or close to, the internal operating temperature. Will -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of Bob Smither Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:36 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Insulation - was: OCXO and Aging Will Matney wrote: > Paul, > > The info they show is generally from the manual or paperwork that comes with > the OCXO when new. > > If they are used OCXO's, then they will be more stable over time than a new > one, off the shelf, as far as drift, or they should be. The OCXO acts > similar to any heated device, and resistors function similar to this also. > When first used, they will drift from spec more than they do after they have > ran for so long in time. The factory generally does a burn in to stabilize > them, but it still takes some time after that to completely settle down to > where calibration isn't needed as often. There's generally a curve for each > model that will show the drift over time. > > The main thing in using these, even though they're supposed to be insulated, > is to mount them where temperature fluctuations are minimal. Also, some are > better insulated than others, like the HP units, which are encased in foam > inside a can. I scanned the archives for this topic, so if I missed it and it has already been beat to death, please point me to any previous discussions. What is the list's opinion about putting OCXOs in an insulated enclosure? That should reduce the effect of drafts in the lab. I have some insulin shipping boxes and put an OCXO in one for a few days. The OCXO is an C-MAC STP2145A. I measured the current draw of the OCXO and the metal case temperature with the lid of the insulated box on and off: Lid off: Is ~ 163 mA, Tc ~ 105F Lid on : Is ~ 130 mA, Tc ~ 118F I assume the oven operates at the same temperature in both cases. Clearly there is less power needed as less heat is escaping. It looks like the other circuit elements (outside the oven) are operating at higher temperatures - likely not a good thing. My measuring capability is limited. Within the precision (~10E-8) that I have I could not see any difference in the oscillator frequency. Thanks, Bob Smither __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OCXO settling my goals What I do have
Paul, As far as shop temperature, I don't think you will have much of a problem, if it only varies a few degrees +/- over the day. The concern would be if it got as hot as, or hotter than, the oven temp, which is around 100+ degrees F., as it's set according to the manufacturer of the OCXO. What most do, is they mount a thermistor close to the crystal, inside the same cavity, and that in turn operates the power source for the heater. The thermistor is the thermostat, and it controls a variable DC supply that feeds a strip heater surrounding the crystal. As far as drift after being turned off, I think that has more to do with how new, or how aged the OCXO is, in how quick it will settle again. I would say a new unit might have to be left on for some time before it settles, but an aged one not near as long. A quick check of a frequency counter over a day, or several, would tell you, and then you can see when it settles back to the correct value, and starts to stay there over time. Someone mentioned Dewar flasks earlier, and I am experimenting with them now. I couldn't find any old wide mouthed flasks, so I bought a large Thermos brand, (for coffee), and made a narrow board that will fit through the neck. I have a standard cell that uses a large one, except it has a glass cork that is evacuated, and the Thermos has a plastic one filled with insulation, so I don't know how well it will work. Anyhow, these will help when they are powered down, such as a power failure, as the temperature takes some time to drop off. I'm actually designing a voltage reference inside this one. Will -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of Paul A. Cianciolo Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:34 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO settling my goals What I do have I forgot to mention. I do have data for following. The Rakon OCXO The Spectracom 8165 WWVB Disciplined Oscillator Ball-Efratom Rubidium Telco version 24 hours worth of data at 10 Mhz using the Z3801A 1PPS output for the start channel Same 24 begin and end times -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Cianciolo Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:23 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO settling my goals Murray, You hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for pointing this out. I don't truly know what I want to accomplish, and without defining that, how can you define what testing needs to be done. Here are some facts. 1) I am absolutely intrigued, addicted, to the concept of precision oscillators, I find them very exciting. 2) I don't even know enough about the topic to understand how much I don't know. 3) I would like to try to optimize a given OCXO by adjusting variables, EFC voltage quality, Oven voltage quality, the environment where the OCXO resides, additional insulation etc. 4) TimeLab is a great tool but there is so much about I do not understand yet. 5) I have at my disposal several Telco Rubidiums, a number of OCXO's a Z3801A, several WWVB Locked oscillators, TimeLab and a working HP5370B 6) I need a concrete platform to stand on a starting point to reference back to. 7) I do not have a climate controlled lab. There seems to many variables to which I have not answers. Without the basic foundation, I am only making guesses and not well educated ones either. Assumptions: 1) The Z3801 is likely to be the best reference source I can afford. 2) Temperature control of the oscillator is the greatest variable for a crystal oscillator, 3) All of these items, EFC voltage quality, Oven voltage quality, the environment where the OCXO resides, additional insulation etc. have varying degrees of effect on a given oscillators performance. I use the broad term performance to cover the fact that I don't yet have a comprehensive list of the oscillator's parameters. 4) A good place to start would be to study data sheets, find out what is important to manufacturers, thereby seeing what's important to OEM using these OXCO. For those of you who are Hams this topic is very similar to a question that is frequently asked of me and other hams.. What's the best antenna? It depends; there are too many variables to list, with various weighting factors, that are dependent on an entirely different set of variables. Here in lies the rub Maybe it time for me to listen more, and ask fewer questions. Sorry for the long post. Paul A. Cianciolo W1VLF http://www.rescueelectronics.com/ Our business computer network is powered exclusively by solar and wind power. Converting Photons to Electrons for over 20 years -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:57 PM To: Discussion of precise time
Re: [time-nuts] OCXO and Aging
Paul, The info they show is generally from the manual or paperwork that comes with the OCXO when new. If they are used OCXO's, then they will be more stable over time than a new one, off the shelf, as far as drift, or they should be. The OCXO acts similar to any heated device, and resistors function similar to this also. When first used, they will drift from spec more than they do after they have ran for so long in time. The factory generally does a burn in to stabilize them, but it still takes some time after that to completely settle down to where calibration isn't needed as often. There's generally a curve for each model that will show the drift over time. The main thing in using these, even though they're supposed to be insulated, is to mount them where temperature fluctuations are minimal. Also, some are better insulated than others, like the HP units, which are encased in foam inside a can. A case in point is the action of artifact resistance standards. These are the oil filled, and similar to the Leeds & Northrup type. After use for a long time, the need for calibration, which is really just re-measuring the value, can be as high as 5 to 10 years, but when new, they should be checked every one to two years for drift. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]On Behalf Of Paul A. Cianciolo Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:01 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO and Aging I have been looking at all of these OCXO's for sale on EBAY. Most seem to be coming out of China. It as if they are scrapping lots of equipment and pulling out the oscillators. There are lots of data attached to these auctions. It seems that for an OCXO the rate of aging changes with the period of time it has been running. Typically I see aging given in "after continuous operation" intervals of 30, 60, 90 days with a rate decreases as the period of time increases. So the questions: Is this a onetime 30,60,90 day burn in ? Or does this same information apply to an oscillator that's been on the shelf(or in China waiting to be sold) for say 6 months ? Does aging ever stop? Does it decrease at a slower rate? A lot of the oscillators on EBAY you can see the date codes. If there was a certain model of high quality, all else being equalize would you buy the oldest unit that might have the most hours on it? I have a Rakon Double Oven OCXO right now but there seems to be a few made by Oscilloquartz that look pretty good. However I don't see any OCXO's that use a Dewar like the FTS unit I had... Do they show up from time to time? Thank you Paul A. Cianciolo W1VLF http://www.rescueelectronics.com/ "Time is relative" Abert Einstien circa 1950 "Relatives use up all my time" Lisa Cianciolo circa 1983 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] IEEE 1588 Clock and Packet Timestamper
Just received this notice from Maxim. "The MAX24288 is a flexible, low-cost IEEE 1588 clock and timestamper with an SGMII or 1000BASE-X serial interface and a parallel MII interface that can be configured for GMII, RGMII, or 10/100 MII. The device provides all required hardware support for high-accuracy time and frequency synchronization using the IEEE 1588 Precision Time Protocol. In both the transmit and receive directions 1588 packets are identified and timestamped with high precision. System software makes use of these timestamps to determine the time offset between the system and its timing master. Software can then correct any time error by steering the device's 1588 clock subsystem appropriately. The device provides the necessary I/O to time-synchronize with a 1588 master elsewhere in the same system or to be the master to which slave components can synchronize. "In addition, the MAX24288 is a full-featured, gigabit parallel-to-serial MII converter. It provides full SGMII revision 1.8 compliance and also interfaces directly to 1Gbps 1000BASE-X SFP optical modules". http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7390 Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] manuals, anyone?
Didier, I've been on your website, and it is a good one. Great job, and thanks for the manuals I've downloaded. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 8/4/2011 at 7:24 PM shali...@gmail.com wrote: >I have about 25 GB of manuals on my web site www.ko4bb.com, with new uploads almost daily, and unlimited storage space. Feel free to upload to your heart content :) > >Didier KO4BB > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... > >-Original Message- >From: li...@lazygranch.com >Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:39:05 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Reply-To: li...@lazygranch.com, > Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] manuals, anyone? > >I used BAMA as an example. If there really is a problem storing manuals online, it wouldn't be difficult to start a similar website. > >I'm going to check with a contact I have at archive.org to see if they want to store manuals. > >I have over 20GB of manuals on my desktop. >-Original Message- >From: "Dave M" >Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:08:46 >To: >Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] manuals, anyone? > >>> I think a simple solution is anyone that gets a free manual has to >>> scan it and upload it to BAMA or some other free manual website. >> >> Nice in theory. Unlikely to work in practice, IMO. >> >> BAMA is a laudible effort, but in practice many documents aree not >> well scanned and some are nearly useless. >> >>> It is unrealistic to expect one person to scan filing cabinets worth >>> of manuals, but to spread the task around makes sense. >> >> Dave has done it. >> >> YMMV, >> >> -John > >BAMA is kinda strange nowadays. According to the note on the edebris mirror >page, the main BAMA site has been down for "repairs and upgrades" since >9/17/2009; almost 2 years ago. Will the main site ever come back online, or >has it been written off permanently? >Also, as I remember, there was a note somewhere on the site that the >owner(s) of the BAMA site were no longer accepting manuals for test >equipment... only real "boat anchors" such as tube type radios, ham gear, >etc. Am I remembering correctly, or was there a different restriction or >has the restriction been removed? I know that I tried to upload a couple >Tektronix manuals that I had scanned, but they never showed up on the site. > >David >dgminala at mediacombb dot net > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] manuals, anyone?
Actually, Ken had permission from several to host the manuals, including HP. What happened, and what he told me, was the number of users on the server was number one, and thus, the mirror. If any recall, it was hard to get a download spot, unless it was in the late hours, right before he shut that servers download abilities down. It is also a school server, and they were supposed to upgrade, and then there was the whole Heathkit crock, at the time, which he and I talked about a few months back. By the way, he sent me all those Heathkit goodies to host, and if anyone is interested, e-mail me. It will be later this fall before I can finish cleaning them all up, and placing them on a non-US server. Right now, you might try the Ebaman site, as he accepts all manual uploads, and is growing by leaps. http://www.ebaman.com/index.php/home Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 8/4/2011 at 12:05 PM Jim Lux wrote: >On 8/4/11 9:08 AM, Dave M wrote: >hn >> >> BAMA is kinda strange nowadays. According to the note on the edebris >> mirror page, the main BAMA site has been down for "repairs and upgrades" >> since 9/17/2009; almost 2 years ago. Will the main site ever come back >> online, or has it been written off permanently? >> Also, as I remember, there was a note somewhere on the site that the >> owner(s) of the BAMA site were no longer accepting manuals for test >> equipment... only real "boat anchors" such as tube type radios, ham >> gear, etc. Am I remembering correctly, or was there a different >> restriction or has the restriction been removed? I know that I tried to >> upload a couple Tektronix manuals that I had scanned, but they never >> showed up on the site. > >maybe copyright concerns.. a boat anchor that has a manual from a mfr >that is out of business is low risk to host. > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The future of UTC
If they will not observe the leap seconds as the earth times calibration, it would become unusable in some areas of technology, and or earth time in itself, or I would think. When the first cesium clock was being built, it was to be calibrated, I guess one could say, by the astronomical second, which was calculated by the US Naval Observatory at that time. In other words, they used that astronomical second to determine the frequency of resonance of cesium. Since the two times don't run paralell due to the earths rotational differences, as of now, and compared to then, why would they not want to correct it? I would think it would screw everything up over years and years of time. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/15/2011 at 1:06 AM Javier Herrero wrote: >With Bulletin C nr 42, a link to a questionnarie about it is added at >the end (and I think that leap seconds and its convenience or not has >been discussed lots of times in the list :) > > From Bulletin C 42: > >IMPORTANT: After years of discussions, a proposal to fundamentally redefine >UTC will come to a conclusive vote in January 2012 at the ITU-R in Geneva. > >This proposal would halt the intercalary adjustments known as leap seconds >that maintain UTC as a form of Universal Time. > >The Earth Orientation Center of the IERS organizes a survey online with the >objective to find out the strength of opinion for maintaining or changing >the present system. > >Link to the questionnaire: > >http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=questionnaire > >Your response is appreciated before 30 August 2011 > > > >El 15/07/2011 00:51, iov...@inwind.it escribió: >> Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that this matter has not yet been discussed among time-nuts: >> http://futureofutc.org >> > From the above website: >> A conclusive proposal to fundamentally redefine UTC is scheduled for a vote by the Radiocommunications Assembly of the ITU-R in January, 2012. The proposal will halt the contribution of so-called leap seconds to UTC after 2017, and will also terminate the requirement that time services transmit the difference between UT1 and UTC. If approved, UTC would no longer be useful as a type of Universal Time for most technical applications. >> Antonio I8IOV >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Pulse generator recommendation
All, I've been wanting to buy an older pulse generator, but want an accurate one, and probably one that I can connect to my GPSDO. I would like one settable to 10 nS, but don't want it variable to there, but switched between the different pulse rates. I looked at the older HP generators, and they look to have slide pots to control everything, including the time, and that killed them for me. I also looked at EH and Phillips/Fluke, but am unsure on what would be the best for what I'm looking for (certainly not new). Do any here have any thoughts on this, or what to look for? Thanks, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Japan Quake May Have Shortened Earth Days, Moved Axis
"Calculations indicate that by changing the distribution of Earth's mass, the Japanese earthquake should have caused Earth to rotate a bit faster, shortening the length of the day by about 1.8 microseconds". http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/japanquake/earth20110314.html Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Primary Time Standards
Jim, It is my understanding that the government standard offices around the globe, like NIST, calculates time by the earths rotation, I guess you could say, the old way, or using astronomy, but with this, they use things like the decay factors of atomic materials to keep this time. If I recall, things had to be recallibrated after the earthquake at Japan, as it changed the earths rotational speed a very minute amount. Its kind of like, which came first, the chicken or the egg on the standards. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/14/2011 at 12:26 PM Jim Palfreyman wrote: >Hi All, > >I've just realised I don't understand something. Something quite basic. > >Primary Standards are ones which don't have to be calibrated against others. >My understanding is that Caesium and Hydrogen masers are Primary Standards >(in our field). > >Secondary Standards are calibrated against the Primary Standards. My >understanding is that Rubidium is an example of a Secondary Standard. > >So I can calibrate my Rubidium clocks by adjusting the C Field. All good. > >But why is it that Caesium Clocks and Hydrogen Masers have an adjustment >facility? > >And what about the clocks used to determine UTC around the world? Do they >have an adjustment facility? What are they adjusted to? Wouldn't that make >them Secondary Standards? > >Now I'm aware that the "average" of those clocks is UTC, so are those clocks >adjusted regularly to get closer to that average? > >I'm sure someone can clear this up for me. > >Regards, > >Jim >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Worst possible error on a rubidium
Here's a link to the other pdf that I spoke of on the programming. It goes into some of the same, but it does have other info. http://www.dd1us.de/Downloads/precise%20reference%20frequency%20rev%200_4.pd f Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 8:06 PM Will Matney wrote: >I think it's more in who had them and tried to calibrate them, as some of >these are actually programmed for the desired frequency. I forget which pin >that is, but I think it may show it in one of the pdfs. There's another pdf >available out there from a ham who did a lot with these, and it did show >how to program/calibrate them. > >I know a few of the guy's over in Asia like to play with these before they >sell them, so I think a lot of it's all in whom you get them from. > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 7/13/2011 at 4:56 PM WB6BNQ wrote: > >>David, >> >>The answer to your question is quite complex. A number of factors control >the >>operation of a passive atomic resonator acting as a filter. Temperature, >pressure, >>buffer gas mixtures, external magnetic forces, coupled light excitation, >the length >>of the cavity, the interrogating external RF energy level are but some of >those >>factors. >> >>The "Atomic" nature of the filter is based upon the extremely narrow >resonance of >>electron absorption of energy which occurs at a specific frequency and is >influenced >>by the previously mentioned factors. That specific RF excitation >frequency is >>different for each element in the Periodic Table. For example the >Hydrogen Maser is >>around 1.45 GHz; the Rubidium is in the 6 Ghz range and the Cesium is in >the 9 Ghz >>range. >> >>None of the specification sheets even approach trying to answer such a >question >>directly. However, with certain qualifying assumptions, it could be >inferred from >>"certain" specs, if available, as a general idea, BUT, by no means the >complete >>answer. >> >>For example, looking at Symmetricom's XPRO Rubidium spec sheet, they give >a 10 year >>spec of ?+/-1x10e-9. The assumption is the unit was built correctly, was >adjusted >>to be precisely on frequency at its intended installation site and was >left powered >>on, in a stable atmosphere, without failures of any kind for the entire 10 >years. >>If the product truly met those assumptions and specs, then I would say, >with some >>confidence, that if you picked up a used one working properly that it >would be >>reasonable to assume after powering up and allowing it to come to a stable >>temperature (24 hours) and it indicated a locked condition that it would >be within >>1x10e-9 of the correct frequency. Unfortunately, FEI is not so forth >coming with >>their product literature, but I suspect their units are similar. >> >>Also, be aware that at least one member on this list has reported buying >two 5680A's >>from China and they were both significantly off frequency by many hertz. >Inspection >>and determination of the problem is a project in motion. This same member >has >>further stated other reports exist on the WEB of other units exhibiting >the same >>problem, although I have not seen those reports. >> >>It may prove out that the two 5680A's have a problem. It is equally >possible that >>they are deliberately offset for some specified yet unknown reason. Time >will tell. >> >>While a Cesium frequency standard is by definition and without question >accurate, >>that only applies under a narrow set of circumstances. It is possible to >miss >>adjust such a beast and that is why multiple standards labs constantly >cross check >>themselves. >> >>Remember, to error is human and machines do what we tell them ! >> >>BillWB6BNQ >> >> >>"Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: >> >>> If an old random 10 MHz Rubidium oscillator is working (i.e. powers up, >and >>> eventually locks), what is the maximum possible frequency error it could >have? >>> >>> Could it remained locked with an error of 1 part in 10^7, 10^8, 10^9, >10^10 etc? >>> >>> I assume there are physical limits which would simply stop it >functioning too >>> far from the correct frequency, but don't have much clue what they are. >>> >>> -- >>> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >>> A: Top-posting. >>> Q: What i
Re: [time-nuts] Worst possible error on a rubidium
I think it's more in who had them and tried to calibrate them, as some of these are actually programmed for the desired frequency. I forget which pin that is, but I think it may show it in one of the pdfs. There's another pdf available out there from a ham who did a lot with these, and it did show how to program/calibrate them. I know a few of the guy's over in Asia like to play with these before they sell them, so I think a lot of it's all in whom you get them from. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 4:56 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >David, > >The answer to your question is quite complex. A number of factors control the >operation of a passive atomic resonator acting as a filter. Temperature, pressure, >buffer gas mixtures, external magnetic forces, coupled light excitation, the length >of the cavity, the interrogating external RF energy level are but some of those >factors. > >The "Atomic" nature of the filter is based upon the extremely narrow resonance of >electron absorption of energy which occurs at a specific frequency and is influenced >by the previously mentioned factors. That specific RF excitation frequency is >different for each element in the Periodic Table. For example the Hydrogen Maser is >around 1.45 GHz; the Rubidium is in the 6 Ghz range and the Cesium is in the 9 Ghz >range. > >None of the specification sheets even approach trying to answer such a question >directly. However, with certain qualifying assumptions, it could be inferred from >"certain" specs, if available, as a general idea, BUT, by no means the complete >answer. > >For example, looking at Symmetricom's XPRO Rubidium spec sheet, they give a 10 year >spec of ?+/-1x10e-9. The assumption is the unit was built correctly, was adjusted >to be precisely on frequency at its intended installation site and was left powered >on, in a stable atmosphere, without failures of any kind for the entire 10 years. >If the product truly met those assumptions and specs, then I would say, with some >confidence, that if you picked up a used one working properly that it would be >reasonable to assume after powering up and allowing it to come to a stable >temperature (24 hours) and it indicated a locked condition that it would be within >1x10e-9 of the correct frequency. Unfortunately, FEI is not so forth coming with >their product literature, but I suspect their units are similar. > >Also, be aware that at least one member on this list has reported buying two 5680A's >from China and they were both significantly off frequency by many hertz. Inspection >and determination of the problem is a project in motion. This same member has >further stated other reports exist on the WEB of other units exhibiting the same >problem, although I have not seen those reports. > >It may prove out that the two 5680A's have a problem. It is equally possible that >they are deliberately offset for some specified yet unknown reason. Time will tell. > >While a Cesium frequency standard is by definition and without question accurate, >that only applies under a narrow set of circumstances. It is possible to miss >adjust such a beast and that is why multiple standards labs constantly cross check >themselves. > >Remember, to error is human and machines do what we tell them ! > >BillWB6BNQ > > >"Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: > >> If an old random 10 MHz Rubidium oscillator is working (i.e. powers up, and >> eventually locks), what is the maximum possible frequency error it could have? >> >> Could it remained locked with an error of 1 part in 10^7, 10^8, 10^9, 10^10 etc? >> >> I assume there are physical limits which would simply stop it functioning too >> far from the correct frequency, but don't have much clue what they are. >> >> -- >> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Worst possible error on a rubidium
Here is another link to the catalog on these FEI standards, and it has info that the datasheet leaves out, especially on operation. http://www.freqelec.com/pdf/rfs_12pg.pdf Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 6:27 PM Will Matney wrote: >David, > >Below is a link to the datasheet on the FEI 5680A. I hope it will work with >those %20 in the link. If not, I think there simply blank spaces, or /FEI - >5680A.pdf > >http://www.gillam-fei.be/products/pdf/others/rubidium/FEI%20-%205680A.pdf > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 7/13/2011 at 5:24 PM Will Matney wrote: > >>David, >> >>That's a good question, and I wouldn't be able to say, without seeing the >>spec sheet on the oscillator itself. Out of lock would be out of >>tolernace, but what the maximum allowable deviation is, on the unit in >>question, I wouldn't know. If it does finally lock, it should be within >>tolerance, but what that tolernaces maximum deviation is, it's untelling, >>without seeing some literature on it. >> >>I did have a sheet on the one I bought, and if I can find it, I'll see >what >>it says. >> >>Best, >> >>Will >> >>*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >>On 7/13/2011 at 10:15 PM Dr. David Kirkby wrote: >> >>>If an old random 10 MHz Rubidium oscillator is working (i.e. powers up, >>and >>>eventually locks), what is the maximum possible frequency error it could >>have? >>> >>>Could it remained locked with an error of 1 part in 10^7, 10^8, 10^9, >>10^10 etc? >>> >>>I assume there are physical limits which would simply stop it functioning >>too >>>far from the correct frequency, but don't have much clue what they are. >>> >>>-- >>>A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >>>Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >>>A: Top-posting. >>>Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >>> >>>___ >>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>To unsubscribe, go to >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>and follow the instructions there. >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >>___ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Worst possible error on a rubidium
David, Below is a link to the datasheet on the FEI 5680A. I hope it will work with those %20 in the link. If not, I think there simply blank spaces, or /FEI - 5680A.pdf http://www.gillam-fei.be/products/pdf/others/rubidium/FEI%20-%205680A.pdf Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 5:24 PM Will Matney wrote: >David, > >That's a good question, and I wouldn't be able to say, without seeing the >spec sheet on the oscillator itself. Out of lock would be out of >tolernace, but what the maximum allowable deviation is, on the unit in >question, I wouldn't know. If it does finally lock, it should be within >tolerance, but what that tolernaces maximum deviation is, it's untelling, >without seeing some literature on it. > >I did have a sheet on the one I bought, and if I can find it, I'll see what >it says. > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 7/13/2011 at 10:15 PM Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > >>If an old random 10 MHz Rubidium oscillator is working (i.e. powers up, >and >>eventually locks), what is the maximum possible frequency error it could >have? >> >>Could it remained locked with an error of 1 part in 10^7, 10^8, 10^9, >10^10 etc? >> >>I assume there are physical limits which would simply stop it functioning >too >>far from the correct frequency, but don't have much clue what they are. >> >>-- >>A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >>Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >>A: Top-posting. >>Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> >>___ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Worst possible error on a rubidium
David, That's a good question, and I wouldn't be able to say, without seeing the spec sheet on the oscillator itself. Out of lock would be out of tolernace, but what the maximum allowable deviation is, on the unit in question, I wouldn't know. If it does finally lock, it should be within tolerance, but what that tolernaces maximum deviation is, it's untelling, without seeing some literature on it. I did have a sheet on the one I bought, and if I can find it, I'll see what it says. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 10:15 PM Dr. David Kirkby wrote: >If an old random 10 MHz Rubidium oscillator is working (i.e. powers up, and >eventually locks), what is the maximum possible frequency error it could have? > >Could it remained locked with an error of 1 part in 10^7, 10^8, 10^9, 10^10 etc? > >I assume there are physical limits which would simply stop it functioning too >far from the correct frequency, but don't have much clue what they are. > >-- >A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
All, I forgot to add this earlier today, while discussing this. When most anything is calibrated at a cal lab, lets say you have something that is supposed to be calibrated 10 MHz, then, they will generally set this at 9.999 MHz, or 1 millihertz below the stated value, and they do this over the resolutions decimal jump on the readout, in order to get it close enough. So, in theory, what you get could actually be 1 millihertz off. They do this on most everything, including voltage, resistance, and current calibrations. Of course, it's according to what the value is, as to what the resolution is on the last digit, and to get it within the stated tolerance. One needs to request a sheet with their measurement at the time, and if the units is powered off, it could possibly change, minutely, when powered back on. That's why most ovenized voltage references are shipped under power, to and from the cal lab, and an OCXO could possibly act the same way. This is something one might ought to take into consideration when wanting to check something down in the low regions of measurement. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 10:20 AM Will Matney wrote: >If not wanting to use an external counter, with a continuously variable >generator, the HP 3335 or 3325B would be good try out. I also think I saw a >3335A, on ebay, for around $375 to $400, in good shape, the other day. >Also, there's a difference between the 3325A and 3325B's frequency step, if >I recall, and the B version is the better one. > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 7/13/2011 at 6:01 AM Jim Lux wrote: > >>On 7/13/11 5:55 AM, paul swed wrote: >>> hp3335 then as I sent last night >> >>or 3325... we use a lot of them at work. takes a 10MHz input, settable >>to microhertz, etc. >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Bill Dailey >wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for the input. I think i am asking for too much in one package >>>> (looking toward future projects). How about 1.8Mhz to 15Mhz To >meet the >>>> needs of the primary project (fmt). I would prefer to not have to also >use >>>> a counter. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Doc >>>> KX0O >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> ___ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> >>___ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] MIT RADIATION LABORATORY SERIES 1940-1945 (28 VOLS) on eBay
Chuck, If the work is still under a copyright, and you copy it by hand, or type it, word for word, changing the font, layout, etc., they still consider it plagerism, and it's still a copyright infringement. About all you can get by with is quoting something you read, and then you are supposed to give the author their due credit. However, if the copyright has been dropped, lets say in the case of these, with someone elses work added, all you have to do is recopy all the un-copyrighted work from the disc, while removeing their added work, place it on a CD, and you can sale or give the CD to anyone. There's a bunch of uncopyrighted work becoming available now, and folks are reprinting it, or scanning it, and putting it on CD. I worked with a publisher in Columbus, OH, and wrote a new forward for an old book titled, "Electromagnetics", and it may now be on ebay for sale. I got paid hansomly for that work too. With this, though, I think he may be able to add a new copyright to an old work, just over my new forward, or at least to what I wrote. In essence, I sold my rights to them. Since its a printed book, I don't know what that would entail legality wise. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 3:13 PM Chuck Harris wrote: >Bill, > >You are reading John's statement incorrectly. He is saying that all of these >guys that are scanning copyrighted (or public domain) material are not eligible >for a copyright just for doing the scanning That would be like the saying the >company that makes the printer (let's say Xerox) is eligible for a copyright on >material printed on their printers but rather their only right to copyright >is for IP material that they add to the original document, not the original document. > >Groups like McGraw-Hill may not own the IP that is in their books, but they do >own the presentation, with its arrangement of pictures, typefaces, and arrangement >or text on the pages, etc.. > >I can conceive of a case where a publisher like McGraw-Hill's copyrighted book >full of public domain IP could be copied if you used your own type font, and >formatting of pages, pictures and text, etc... > >-Chuck Harris > >William H. Fite wrote: >> I just ran into one of our attorneys in the hallway. Copyright refers to >> the intellectual property, not to the medium. The fact that the >> intellectual property of the author is moved from a book to a CD does not >> affect copyright, so long as the content is not otherwise altered. Think >> about it; if your friend's contention were true, we could all dodge >> copyright restrictions simply by photocopying (scanning) the material we >> wished to appropriate. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:02 AM, J. Forster wrote: >> >>> That is apparently the case for the HC books. >>> >>> I'm not so sure about the CDs. A friend who is an IP attorney has told me >>> that if you scan something, you cannot copyright the scan. You can >>> copyright any new content you add. >>> >>> FWIW, >>> >>> -John > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] esi PVB 300 Bridge
All, This is OT, so if you would, please e-mail me direct on this. I have an ESI (Electro Scientific Industries), model PVB 300 portametric voltmeter bridge, and am looking for a good schematic or manual on it. I have the manual from Bama, but the problem is, I despise the schematics that use wiring bundles, instead of showing the individual wires. I have missed things by using these before. I recently purchased this bridge, and the calibration company that had it, had added some pots out the back, to use as a voltage divider, and was using some other type of battery in place of the old mercury cells. ESI says to use 9 volt batteries in their place, and is what I intend on doing, but I need to see what they have unconnected, and rewired. To be honest, I'm afraid I'll miss something, using the schematic in the manual from Bama, and am hoping somebody may have one that is better, and is not the wire bundle type of schematic. If you can help. please e-mail me off the list. Thanks, Will xfor...@citynet.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Any thoughts on best rubidium?
David, That's not a bad price for two in good shape. They generally supply the connector with these, with the leads cut off at about 2 inches long. I just stripped them, and soldered new leads to them, and then used heat-shrink over the joints. After I got mine up and running, I calibrated it with my GPS referenced HP 5328B counter. Mine works fine, and I've had no problems with it. It was a pull on a PC board, like I mentioned earlier. Also, if you mount them in a good aluminum chassis, the chassis is enough for a heatsink, or so it seems on mine. All that's really in mine is the oscillator and a power supply, which is housed in an aluminum enclosure made with about a 0.060" thick aluminum sheet. What I'm intending on doing, is making some rental calibration reference's like this, and renting them from eBay, or off the website I'm starting this fall. I'll calibrate them each time before sending them out. Amateur radio folks, and the small shops can't afford the high prices of cal labs, most of the time, and I'm doing this to save on the cost. After testing this first design, and ironing out any bugs, I'm ready to start building the first of these in about a month. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 4:56 PM Dr. David Kirkby wrote: >On 07/11/11 01:25 AM, Will Matney wrote: >> David, >> >> The FE-5680A is always plentiful, and a lot of them are generally mounted >> on a PC board, from pulls, along with having a decent price. The main thing >> is availability, which means spare parts if you need them. I also know that >> I've seen these used as internal timebases for counters before on the >> larger HP types. > >I decided to get the FE-5680A in the end. I found a seller willing to accept >£75 (~$120) for a pair of them shipped to my house in the UK. At $60 each >(including shipping), I thought that was a fair price. > >If at a later date I decide I want something with higher performance, I'll >reevaluate the situation. > >I don't have a need for high absolute accuracy, but I'd like to have something >better than an HP10811A (or similar) that has not been calibrated for a decade >or two. > >I've got a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver with the rare SO-1 TCXO installed. >According to the spectrum analyser, that is about 40 Hz off, but I've no idea >how much of that difference is due to the transceiver or HP10811A oscillator in >the analyser. Logic would suggest the oven should be better, but that has not >been calibrated for years, so the crystal has no doubt aged. > >A non-disiplied rubidium is not state of the art, but I'd feel comfortable in >setting both the transceivers TCXO and the analyser's OCXO to the rubidium. > > >-- >A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Tek The Oscilloscope Reference Kit
Just got this in an e-mail from Tektronix. Shame they're all pdf, instead of printed and mailed out though. "The Oscilloscope Reference Kit is back by popular demand. Developed by Tektronix engineers and scope experts, the kit covers everything you need to know about oscilloscope theory and operation. Request your kit today and find out why 8 out of 10 engineers rely on Tektronix oscilloscopes to test their designs. The kit includes: XYZs of Oscilloscopes: This primer explores how oscilloscopes work, the different types of oscilloscopes, waveform types and basic oscilloscope controls. Oscilloscopes Reference Poster: This easy-to-print poster provides basic features and functions of the oscilloscope, including tips for capturing your signal and advanced triggering. Fundamentals of Oscilloscopes Lab: Step-by-step guide covering oscilloscope operation and common electronic measurements". Download link: http://eetpartner.com/portal/wts/cemciv2cAh36edkdnqzf0hDdksAh8b Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
If not wanting to use an external counter, with a continuously variable generator, the HP 3335 or 3325B would be good try out. I also think I saw a 3335A, on ebay, for around $375 to $400, in good shape, the other day. Also, there's a difference between the 3325A and 3325B's frequency step, if I recall, and the B version is the better one. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 6:01 AM Jim Lux wrote: >On 7/13/11 5:55 AM, paul swed wrote: >> hp3335 then as I sent last night > >or 3325... we use a lot of them at work. takes a 10MHz input, settable >to microhertz, etc. > >> >> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Bill Dailey wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the input. I think i am asking for too much in one package >>> (looking toward future projects). How about 1.8Mhz to 15Mhz To meet the >>> needs of the primary project (fmt). I would prefer to not have to also use >>> a counter. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Doc >>> KX0O >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
Bill, Well, if the frequency you want is below 10 MHz, then the counter/readout on a HP 3335, as Paul mentioned, will reach the 100 millihertz range, as it's readout is 8 digits, I think. That is anything from say 9.99 MHz and below, the resolution will go up from there, but to be honest, I can't remember using mine this way. The problem is, even though the 3335 is a level sine generator, it's signal is not quite as clean as the 8640B, though it may be clean enough, as I've never used mine for this. Here, the 8640B falls out over the range of its counter, as I think it may be only 7 digits, without looking, and I think it might not count that low, or no lower than 1 Hz, as I can't remember. Really, about the only way you can get that much resolution, over 10 MHz, is use an external counter with a high resolution display, and there's not that many out there, unless using one like an EIP 538B microwave counter, and that's for counting up to 26.5 GHz. They have them that will go up to around 12 digits in resolution, like this one, but some of them are limited in the lowest frequency they'll count, and if I recall, the 538B models lower limit is around 10 Hz, so no hertz or millihertz. There's limits on other counters too, in their low count, but with all the different manufacturers and models, I couldn't begin to tell you which ones they are. I've never used anything over eight digits of resolution, here, so others on here may know more about which to use, if you end up having to use one. The problem is, these high res counters cost out the ying yang. What you need is a clean signal for this, since you're thinking about mixing signals, and you might ought to look for something fixed, that will produce it in say an OCXO, and use an easily fixed frequency that you don't need to see the millihertz range to use, say a simple 5 to 10 MHz, that's just been calibrated to be on the money. The problem is, the smaller, low cost, RF generators that will cover this, aren't clean at all, and the resolution of their internal counter is only around 6 digits at most. Also, if you don't want to lay out a pile of cash, you can rent these for a month, off a dealer, having plenty of time to do the test. However, some may want as much for reat as you could buy a working used one for. On the generator or synthesizer you get, say one of the models I listed earlier, or the HP 3335, a decent one will still run you around $300.00 plus, now that a lot of the government surplus has dried up. A few years back, these could be bought at around $75 to $100 each, and even some of the EIP counters. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/13/2011 at 7:38 AM Bill Dailey wrote: >Thanks for the input. I think i am asking for too much in one package (looking toward future projects). How about 1.8Mhz to 15Mhz To meet the needs of the primary project (fmt). I would prefer to not have to also use a counter. > >Thanks, > >Doc >KX0O > >Sent from my iPad >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
Bill, A generator like the HP 8640B would be tunable like you want, since it's a continuous mechanically tuned cavity. However, to get into reading millihertz, you would need an accraute counter to measure the output of the generator. The problem is, most counters are 8 digits in resolution, and at say 10 MHz, you would only be able to read down to 1 Hz (10.01). Also, in this case, you would want the signal to be as clean as possible IMO. There wouldn't be any need to buy something real expensive, unless that's what you're looking for, to use on other projects later on. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/12/2011 at 9:04 PM Bill Dailey wrote: >Ok, I have a dds receiver locked to a gpsdo, the radio can only be tuned in 1 hz increments but should be dead on. I can feed the passband into speclab via VAC and measure a carrier OTA. No problem there...can get decent resolution but there is some uncertainty with regard to the dds (frequent dependent). What I would like do is inject a known frequency to either zero-beat the carrier (assuming I can get something with millihertz resolution) or provide a non-superimposed carrier that I can reference via difference in speclab. The whole point is to eliminate or measure the dds offset at a particular frequency. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
Sorry, I got this backwards. The one I mentioned is a Racal 9082P, not 9028. It will only go to about 520 MHz, and so will the Boonton. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/12/2011 at 9:41 PM Will Matney wrote: >If you don't mind cranking the tuning knob for the cavity tuner, the 8640B >is a good RF generator, not a synthesizer, which I also have one. The >synthesizer I have, which you still crank or spin the knob, which in turn >turns a digital encoder, is a Racal Dana 9028P, and I enjoy it over it's >simplicity, like I do the 8640B. The Boonton is easy to use too, and I >think it is set up similar to the Racal, internally, but I'm not sure. I >find these easier, and quicker to use, than keyed inputs, and I have a few >of these, which to be honest, draw dust. However, some of the keyed input >synthesizers generally have a few more options too. > >There's just too many different models and makes out there to really say >what's best for a situation, without knowing all the features needed, but >these are the simplest to use, that I've found, and have a decently clean >signal. > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 7/12/2011 at 6:16 PM J. Forster wrote: > >>Oops. Must remember to engage brain. It's not phase locked. It's counter >>locked. >> >>Sorry, >> >>-John >> >>== >> >> >>> Bill, >>> >>> Believe it or not, the HP 8640B is one of the cleanest, as far as signal >>> goes, that you can get, and you can get an option that will take it to 1 >>> GHz, if I remember. You can pick these up pretty cheap, but they have a >>> problem with some plastic gears going out on the tuning assembly. These >>> are >>> old too, but you can find junkers for parts. >>> >>> From a report I read on signal purity once, the next best for these >>> oldies, >>> was a Boonton 102, which outperformed a lot of modern generators >>> concerning >>> purity. However, it won't go to 1 GHz, I don't think, and I don't think >>> there's an option for it. >>> >>> If you're not too worried about extra clean signal purity, there are >>> several others, including ones made by Fluke, and or Wavetek. Don't get >me >>> wrong, these not are cheap junk, it's just they didn't show as clean an >>> output as the HP and Boonton above. Without knowing any other features >you >>> want, it's hard to tell you anymore than these recommendations. >>> >>> I forget where I read the test done on several of these RF generators, >but >>> it's on a website, and others on here may know of the tests I'm speaking >>> of. Also, on the HP 8640B, one could get those plastic gears recut in >>> brass, if they did break, and they would last forever. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Will >>> >>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >>> >>> On 7/12/2011 at 7:41 PM Bill Dailey wrote: >>> >>>>Looking for recommendations for a broadband synthesizer with external >>> reference connection, at least 1mhz to 1ghz with micro to millihertz >>> resolution. Oh yeah under $1000 or so. I found a real nice one from >>> holzworth but it is about $5k which is a bit rich for me. I have seen. >>> Various hp synthesizer but digging through the specs and the number soup >>> is >>> tough for a non-electronics guy. >>>> >>>>Tia, >>>> >>>>Doc >>>> >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>>___ >>>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>>> >>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>>http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
If you don't mind cranking the tuning knob for the cavity tuner, the 8640B is a good RF generator, not a synthesizer, which I also have one. The synthesizer I have, which you still crank or spin the knob, which in turn turns a digital encoder, is a Racal Dana 9028P, and I enjoy it over it's simplicity, like I do the 8640B. The Boonton is easy to use too, and I think it is set up similar to the Racal, internally, but I'm not sure. I find these easier, and quicker to use, than keyed inputs, and I have a few of these, which to be honest, draw dust. However, some of the keyed input synthesizers generally have a few more options too. There's just too many different models and makes out there to really say what's best for a situation, without knowing all the features needed, but these are the simplest to use, that I've found, and have a decently clean signal. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/12/2011 at 6:16 PM J. Forster wrote: >Oops. Must remember to engage brain. It's not phase locked. It's counter >locked. > >Sorry, > >-John > >== > > >> Bill, >> >> Believe it or not, the HP 8640B is one of the cleanest, as far as signal >> goes, that you can get, and you can get an option that will take it to 1 >> GHz, if I remember. You can pick these up pretty cheap, but they have a >> problem with some plastic gears going out on the tuning assembly. These >> are >> old too, but you can find junkers for parts. >> >> From a report I read on signal purity once, the next best for these >> oldies, >> was a Boonton 102, which outperformed a lot of modern generators >> concerning >> purity. However, it won't go to 1 GHz, I don't think, and I don't think >> there's an option for it. >> >> If you're not too worried about extra clean signal purity, there are >> several others, including ones made by Fluke, and or Wavetek. Don't get me >> wrong, these not are cheap junk, it's just they didn't show as clean an >> output as the HP and Boonton above. Without knowing any other features you >> want, it's hard to tell you anymore than these recommendations. >> >> I forget where I read the test done on several of these RF generators, but >> it's on a website, and others on here may know of the tests I'm speaking >> of. Also, on the HP 8640B, one could get those plastic gears recut in >> brass, if they did break, and they would last forever. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 7/12/2011 at 7:41 PM Bill Dailey wrote: >> >>>Looking for recommendations for a broadband synthesizer with external >> reference connection, at least 1mhz to 1ghz with micro to millihertz >> resolution. Oh yeah under $1000 or so. I found a real nice one from >> holzworth but it is about $5k which is a bit rich for me. I have seen. >> Various hp synthesizer but digging through the specs and the number soup >> is >> tough for a non-electronics guy. >>> >>>Tia, >>> >>>Doc >>> >>>Sent from my iPhone >>>___ >>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>and follow the instructions there. >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Broadband synthesizer
Bill, Believe it or not, the HP 8640B is one of the cleanest, as far as signal goes, that you can get, and you can get an option that will take it to 1 GHz, if I remember. You can pick these up pretty cheap, but they have a problem with some plastic gears going out on the tuning assembly. These are old too, but you can find junkers for parts. >From a report I read on signal purity once, the next best for these oldies, was a Boonton 102, which outperformed a lot of modern generators concerning purity. However, it won't go to 1 GHz, I don't think, and I don't think there's an option for it. If you're not too worried about extra clean signal purity, there are several others, including ones made by Fluke, and or Wavetek. Don't get me wrong, these not are cheap junk, it's just they didn't show as clean an output as the HP and Boonton above. Without knowing any other features you want, it's hard to tell you anymore than these recommendations. I forget where I read the test done on several of these RF generators, but it's on a website, and others on here may know of the tests I'm speaking of. Also, on the HP 8640B, one could get those plastic gears recut in brass, if they did break, and they would last forever. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/12/2011 at 7:41 PM Bill Dailey wrote: >Looking for recommendations for a broadband synthesizer with external reference connection, at least 1mhz to 1ghz with micro to millihertz resolution. Oh yeah under $1000 or so. I found a real nice one from holzworth but it is about $5k which is a bit rich for me. I have seen. Various hp synthesizer but digging through the specs and the number soup is tough for a non-electronics guy. > >Tia, > >Doc > >Sent from my iPhone >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Disciplining a Rubidium with a Thunderbolt.
Here's an app note from NASA on what they did for controlling, or filtering, phase noise, and it can get complicated. http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/XII/XIIK.PDF Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/12/2011 at 1:44 AM WB6BNQ wrote: >Hi David, > >Just to clear the AIR, all Rubidium frequency standards have a crystal oscillator as >the primary signal source within the Rubidium device. The Rubidium portion of the >standard is just a very high Q filter whose properties can be controlled such that >it's filter's center frequency has extremely small drift. That small drift factor is, >typically, way less then the resulting factors that control drift in a Quartz >resonator. > >In order to gain the properties of the Rubidium's longer term stability and the short >term noise properties of a very good Quartz oscillator you would need both items. You >select a very good Quartz device and phase lock it to a really good Rubidium (with its >own Quartz oscillator). You would adjust the loop constants to correct at a very slow >pace consistent with the quality of the very good Quartz oscillator. > >To get to the next level (connection to the Nation's reference), you would discipline >the Rubidium against a GPS device with an even slower loop. So, in the end you have >two separate loops with three separate devices. This is not your "Nickel & Dime >store" plug-and-play set up. It would have to be set up with care and some >experimentation to get it right. > >For a reference on the basic process, you should read the QST article on Brooke >Shera's GPS disciplined oscillator system. Contained within it is a description of >the loop process I referred to above. To utilize his method would require upgrading >his circuit design (some parts not available any longer) and some software upgrading >as well to account for those changes. > >To obtain the QST article go to Shera's web site at http://www.rt66.com/~shera/ >Also click on the "more information line" for further reading. > >BillWB6BNQ > > >"Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: > >> On 07/12/11 02:15 AM, Tim Tuck wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Just wondering how many people have used John Miles work @ >> > http://www.ke5fx.com/tbolt.htm, or similar, to discipline a rubidium >> > oscillator and if so... >> > >> > 1. what was the RB of choice ? >> > 2.have any measurements of phase noise etc. been published on such a rig ? >> > 3. Are there any published how-to's etc. available ? >> > >> > I'd like to build such a beast as my lab standard so any help appreciated. >> > >> > thanks >> > >> > Tim >> >> I'm no expert on this, but I believe that the rubidiums have poorer phase noise >> than crystals, so unless holdover performance is an issue, there is no advantage >> in using a rubidium over a crystal as long as GPS lock is maintained at all times. >> >> The Stanford PRS-10 rubidium looks to be quite nice, as it has a 10 MHz crystal >> to give good phase noise and also the rubidium for medium term stability. It can >> be disciplined easily, as it has a 1 pps input. >> >> Alas the PRS-10 is not as plentiful (i.e. cheap) as some other rubidiums. >> >> There may be better ways, but a PRS-10 and a timing receiver which outputs 1 pps >> looks to be a relatively easy way to get the short term peformance of a crystal, >> the medium term performance of a rubidium should the GPS get unlocked and the >> long term stability of GPS. >> >> I'm looking for a lab standard too, so I'd be interested in what other replies >> you get. For me personally, for a short term solution, I'm thinking of using an >> undisciplined rubidium. >> >> -- >> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Am I the only Time Nut who doesn't wear a watch?
Hal, *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/10/2011 at 10:12 PM Hal Murray wrote: >>> 4 seconds per day? I'd expected better from a very expensive watch. >>> Are belts nasty when it comes to keeping good time? > >> No, it shouldn't have nothing to do with the belts, as they're the same as >> timing belts, or toothed belts, and would work the same as gear teeth. The >> accuracy will come from the balance wheel arrangement, and with all the >> jewels (bearings), one would think it would sure move free. However, keeping >> in mind they said they were ball bearings, I would say each uses at least >> four "jewel" balls to a bearing, and that is where the majority of them is >> used up. I would think that it all goes back to the balance wheel and the >> escapement, or type of, as to any accuracy issues, unless of course the >> belts do slip somehow, but they shouldn't. I didn't get a good look at the >> balance wheel to see what type of temperature compesation it used, if any. > >I wasn't worried about the belts jumping a cog. It was more a secondary >(tertiary?) quirk of the loading not being constant over temperature, or >something like that, and the loading having minor impacts on the overall >timekeeping. (I was assuming the belts were at the hour level rather than >the second level.) Well, they said they had wire cores in the belts, and I would say that this is over not just strengthening the belt, but controlling expansion and contraction. Contraction could load a cogged wheel more, however, they mounted them on ball bearings, or I think most were, and that should keep them from binding less than one would one a single ruby. > >The other obvious question is: what is "good" accuracy for a modern watch, >and what is "very" good for an expensive watch. 1 second per day is 11 PPM. According to one website, a certified mechanical chronometers best is about +/- 1 second per day, and typical is +/- 3. http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/accuracy.shtml > >I'm not calibrated on mechanical balance wheels. I'm pretty sure the >mechanical watch my grandparents gave me many many years ago (high school >graduation) was better than 4 seconds per day. (I wasn't a certified >time-nut back then, but I think I would have noticed something like that.) I >wonder if I can still find it. > >The crystals on my PCs are ballpark of 1 PPM per C. I'd expect a watch >crystal to be tuned to human temperature environments and be better than >that. I guess I'll have to get setup to collect some data. > >4 seconds per day would be great if it were guaranteed over a wide >temperature range, but that web page didn't mention anything about >temperature. The only thing mentioned, I think, was maybe the balance wheel's material (Glucydur). I looked again, and noticed it didn't have any eccentric screw-weights about the wheel, for fine tuning it, or it didn't look to have more that one or two at the most, as it's hard to see the thing. It's pretty thin to, which probably is why it has no screws. It did look to be split though, like it should be, for a change in it's diamtater when the temp. rises. The thing is, for the price, and man can buy a certified chronagraph, with a tourbillion escapement, for less than this costs. To me, the belt design, which was used so they could place the extra hands around the face where they wanted them, is a novelty, and not really built to be an exact time keeper, like a tourbillion would be. > > >-- >These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Any thoughts on best rubidium?
David, The FE-5680A is always plentiful, and a lot of them are generally mounted on a PC board, from pulls, along with having a decent price. The main thing is availability, which means spare parts if you need them. I also know that I've seen these used as internal timebases for counters before on the larger HP types. The LPRO-101 is almost as plentiful, and where it's in a flat package, similar to the FE-5680A, it can be internally mounted in the larger counters. The SLCR-101 doesn't seem to be as plentiful, but some of these are supposed to have a new type lamp, with longer life. They generally cost a bit more too. The FRS-C, if I recall, are older units, and are boxy, which makes them harder to mount in thin chassis, if you want to add them inside a counter, etc. However, they are generally cheaper, and if you're using a home brew cabinet, size doesn't really matter then. I have only used the FE-5680A, myself, and can recommend it, but have read quite a bit about the others in the past. I also think that long-life lamps are available for most of the newer units too. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/11/2011 at 12:37 AM Dr. David Kirkby wrote: >I'm looking to get a rubidium source to use as a reference for a spectrum >analyser, frequency counter or similar test equipment. All these need a 10 MHz >input. > >I've looked on eBay and found a few that seem to be in plentiful supply > >* EFRATOM 10MHZ LPRO-101 >* FE-5680A >* SLCR-101 >* Efratom 10MHZ Rubidium FREQUENCY Standard FRS-C > >Is there any reason to chose one over another for the application I have? > >Is there any seller to avoid or you can suggest is particularly good? I want to >import this to the UK, but are not bothered where it comes from, as long as the >seller is reliable. > >Dave > >-- >A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Am I the only Time Nut who doesn't wear a watch?
Hal, No, it shouldn't have nothing to do with the belts, as they're the same as timing belts, or toothed belts, and would work the same as gear teeth. The accuracy will come from the balance wheel arrangement, and with all the jewels (bearings), one would think it would sure move free. However, keeping in mind they said they were ball bearings, I would say each uses at least four "jewel" balls to a bearing, and that is where the majority of them is used up. I would think that it all goes back to the balance wheel and the escapement, or type of, as to any accuracy issues, unless of course the belts do slip somehow, but they shouldn't. I didn't get a good look at the balance wheel to see what type of temperature compesation it used, if any. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/10/2011 at 2:10 PM Hal Murray wrote: >omni...@gmail.com said: >> Then there is this little number... >> http://forums.watchnet.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=415170&rid=0 > >From their web page: > > The power reserve is 52 hours, and the watch is actually very accurate > at about plus or minus 4 seconds a day. > >4 seconds per day? I'd expected better from a very expensive watch. Are >belts nasty when it comes to keeping good time? > > > > >-- >These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Defective Z3801 and strange PS board
I have a Motorola based 5 MHz unit, that's a rack mount, that's the same, using a 45-48 Vdc supply, and was told at the time it was due to the Telco standard voltage. I use it with my Racal products, as their timebase is at 5 MHz. By the way, this unit was pulled from a cell tower. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/9/2011 at 11:19 AM bownes wrote: >My educated guess is that they expected to sell these to telcos, who traditionally run everything in a central office on -48v and running off of ac was an afterthought. > > > >On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:43, Marco IK1ODO wrote: > >> Hello group, >> >> after many years (about 12, I think) of faithful continuous operation, my Z3801 failed. >> I opened it, and found that there was no supply to the main PCB. The power supply board in the Z3801 (and Z3805, 58503A, possibly all the series) is marked 58503-60003. It is a very strange board. It seems to have a first DC-DC converter taking 48V input, powering two other DC-DCs that work on 48V (!), one supplying +5/+15/-15V to the main board, the other supplying 5V 4A to a fourth DC-DC that drives the outer oven with up to 18V. >> Well, it is the first DC-DC that failed. I bypassed it, powering directly the no. 2 and 3 from 48V, and all works again. The questions are: does a schematic for that board exist? Anyone knows why such a complex power supply architecture was adopted? It is not very energy-efficient, all those DC-DC run hot. >> >> 73 - Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Group messages
All, For some odd reason, I think my e-mail app has sent replies to private e-mails back to the list, and I have just noticed this. If anyone has received them, please disregard them, and I will try to find out why this is happening, and shut them off. Sorry for this, as I never noticed it until now. Thanks, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Breguet TYPE XXII
Tom, I think you misunderstood the post. I was not peddling a watch, but quoting an e-mail, containing the technical aspects of, or the horological aspects of, the new watch itself, or the new movement they're using to tell time, and what they did. Maybe I should have started the quote at "This creation", and eneded it at "rotation in 30 seconds", and not commented about it afterward. I would actually think this would be closer to OT than about anything, especially the new horology aspect, but OK. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/1/2011 at 2:54 PM Tom Van Baak wrote: >Hi Will, > >Please do not use time-nuts for postings like this. I know we have >our share of OT posts, especially lately, but Breguet has nothing >to do with our group: http://www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm > >Thanks, >/tvb > >- Original Message - >From: "Will Matney" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:51 PM >Subject: [time-nuts] Breguet TYPE XXII > > >Just got this in an e-mail from Breguet. > >Breguet TYPE XXII - Flyback Chronograph in Steel is now available in the >New York Breguet Boutique. > >"The Breguet Type XXII chronograph offers an aesthetic reinterpretation of >the legendary Type XX, but above all embodies a high-precision achievement. > This creation is equipped with the first and only series-made mechanical >chronograph movement with a silicon escapement and balance spring boasting >a frequency raised to 10 Hz, meaning 72,000 vibrations per hour. The >seconds hand performs a complete rotation in 30 seconds. 24-hour indicator >and second time-zone indicator. Water resistant to 100m. Diameter 44 mm. >$19,200" > >Now, the $19,200 is the only sticking point! See the attached photo, a >really nice timekeeper. > >Best, > >Will > > > > >--- - > > >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Breguet TYPE XXII
Just got this in an e-mail from Breguet. Breguet TYPE XXII – Flyback Chronograph in Steel is now available in the New York Breguet Boutique. "The Breguet Type XXII chronograph offers an aesthetic reinterpretation of the legendary Type XX, but above all embodies a high-precision achievement. This creation is equipped with the first and only series-made mechanical chronograph movement with a silicon escapement and balance spring boasting a frequency raised to 10 Hz, meaning 72,000 vibrations per hour. The seconds hand performs a complete rotation in 30 seconds. 24-hour indicator and second time-zone indicator. Water resistant to 100m. Diameter 44 mm. $19,200" Now, the $19,200 is the only sticking point! See the attached photo, a really nice timekeeper. Best, Will <>___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] live 50 Hz measurements
Pieter-Tjerk, Now that is exactly what I had pictured in my head yesterday, and the day before. The chart will give a comparison, over a long time period, of any deviation. We do the same with calibrations, when we're looking for the deviation on voltage and resistance, over a month to a year. It's really similar to the old paper chart recorders on the OCXO and Rubidium WWVB standards. This is a job well done! If you don't want to mess with the full line voltage, use a step-down type isolation transformer, and drive a LED to phottransistor IC, or just use a 1:1 isolation xformer, and use a neon like here. I think Chris mentioned using the fluorescent lights in his shop as the drive. For accuracy sake, I'd still compare the line freq. to a standard, but that's just me. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 7/1/2011 at 7:58 PM Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote: >Hello 50 & 60 Hz nuts, > >The recent discussions here on measuring the mains frequency and >phase prompted me to revive an experiment I set up some 3 years ago. >Live data about the phase and frequency of the 50 Hz mains here in >the Netherlands can now be viewed at: > http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/lichtnet/ > >The system consists of a simple circuit to feed the mains signal >safely into an RS232 port (using a neon bulb and a phototransistor; >the schematic is on the web page), and some cobbled-together >software running under Linux. > >Regards, > Pieter-Tjerk > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Racal Dana 9092
All, I'm looking for some junker Racal Dana 9082 RF generators, if anyone knows of any? I have a good 9082 that I have used over the years, along with the matching 9083 two tone generator, and would like to find some old ones for parts units. I wouldn't mind finding a clunker 9083 too. It will be August before I buy, but I'm looking around in advance. If anyone has one of either, that they would like to get rid of, e-mail me at my address below. Thanks, Will xfor...@citynet.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global...
Here's one thing that's fixing to happen, if any interference is allowed to take place. All the large companies like Cat and Deere have been including GPS guidance for the operators for a good while now. Most of your surveyers now use GPS in about everything they do. If they are forced to go back to the old ways of surveying, can you imagine the hold-up's, in the large construction projects within our infrastructure, that this will cause? All of those hold-up's equal over runs on time, which means huge amounts of state and federal dollars having to be added to complate these projects. They use GPS in graders and dozers to aquire any grade angle that the specs call for, on top of where it supposed to be. The surveyers use it almost strictly now to do any of their work. I can also see it adding years to projects that is now underway, and I wonder if they have thought of any of this? Surely Deere, Cat, and most likely Trimble, have tried to explain this to the idiots in Washington? Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/30/2011 at 1:00 PM Robert LaJeunesse wrote: >Might be worth a read of some of Charlie Rhodes' columns at TV Technology. The >latest is "Can Terrestrial Broadcasting and GPS Co-exist in Adjoining Spectrum?" >and is at http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/122176 > >Over the years Charlie has presented what seems IMHO to be valid reasons why TV >white spaces - aka guardbands - exist and that terrestrial TV needs them. Same >applies for GPS and LS. I'd at least agree that the need for white spaces is one >main reason why "Terrestrial TV simply cannot use all the bandwidth it is >allotted". Of course, my meaning of "use" here is that of "occupy". I think Mr. >Rhodes would contend even un-occupied spectrum is in use... > >Bob LaJeunesse > > > > >From: "li...@lazygranch.com" >To: paul swed ; Discussion of precise time and frequency >measurement >Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 3:45:10 PM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global... > >Terrestrial TV simply cannot use all the bandwidth it is allotted. Spectrum has >been whittled away at least twice. Once to create T-band. Again a little bit >when HDTV was rolled out. The band needs to be trimmed with a sawzall. > > >-Original Message- >From: paul swed >Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:09:06 >To: ; Discussion of precise time and frequency >measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global... > >Scratching the ole head. "TVs a waste"? A comment on the editorial content >perhaps? >But then how does any of that really have anything to do with Time-nuts. >Regards >Paul. > >On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 2:42 PM, wrote: > >> That is the "white space" plan. It is still active. It is an attempt to use >> wasted TV bandwidth. >> >> TV bandwidth is a waste. It is not a growing business. However, the MS >> scheme is kind of dumb. The gear would sniff the ether and automatically use >> the spectrum. They should really just refarm the spectrum. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: David VanHorn >> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com >> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:04:42 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement< >> time-nuts@febo.com> >> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>    >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global... >> >> >> Years ago, microsoft wanted to take over one of the ham bands, 2m or 440 I >> forget which, for satellites for internet in poor areas. >> Swatch wanted to have everyone change to "beats" instead of seconds and >> minutes. >> >> Stupid ideas abound, but they usually fall apart. >> >> >> >> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of >> Bruce Lane [kyr...@bluefeathertech.com] >> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:45 AM >> To: time-nuts@febo.com >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global... >> >>    Seems to me such an issue only increases the chance of >> Lightsquared's >> whacked-out ideas getting shot down in flames (as they should be). >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global...
Mark my words, it will be down to who has the deepest pockets, and the best representation from the lobyist's, in how this goes. The congress is ignorant to technical issues, and they will force the FCC to follow along. It will go down that it was "for the greater good", or something similar. Boeing pulled something similar to this, by building a plant in S.C., for the 787, in order to get even with the union, as it was proven, and the NLRB ruled against them, but right now, over the money invested, Congress is about to step in over the NLRB ruling, for the union, and this type of thing happens all the time. Build it up first, and force them to use it, or force it through, over the large sums of money already invested. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/30/2011 at 6:32 PM Rob Kimberley wrote: >http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/lightsquared-goes-global-glonass-galile o >-may-be-risk-too-11822?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GNSS-De s >ign_06_29_2011&utm_content=lightsquared-goes-global-glonass-galileo-may-be- r >isk-too-11822 > > >Seems like no one is safe from this! > >Rob K > > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Chris, Yea, it's similar to the way you track a voltage reference or standard over time between calibrations, but here, it would be frequency instead. I don't know if it would really need to track it all the time, maybe check it so many hours a day, or so many times during peak, and night periods to see how it may shift. I would say you could track the phase the same way, just use a different circuit to pick up any shift. I don't know if there might be some software already written by one of the calibration companies for something like this. I imagine if the app could write to a file, each reading, and then use that info on the graph. If one did monitor it the whole time, they could make the software log any changes from 60 Hz the same way, while time stamping them, and adding them to the file. It wouldn't have to write to it unless it was off by so may specified parts per million, or say microsends, etc. Once done, and at the periods end, a quick look at the graph would show the plot points where it deviated from 60 Hz over a month, etc. One would also want the file in case the computer would crash, or need a reboot, etc, as you sure wouldn't want to lose all the recordings. I've never programed anything using graphs, so I'm not sure how hard it would be. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/29/2011 at 5:15 PM Chris Albertson wrote: >OK, now I understand why you wanted a sound card with a wel regulated >clock. Yes they make those. The common cheap cards use a square can >oscillator good to about 100PPM. Better cards can use a better >and way more expensive clock source. I think knowing the sample rate >is accurate is good enough. Then you simly feed the 60Hz signal to >the sound card and record it. Latter plot a spectra or whatever. I >thought of that too but then rememebered that the audio card's best >sample rate is only about 96K samples per second so the time >resolution is only on order it 1/48,000 second. > >Then I though I could square the 60Hz wave and feed it to pin one on a >serial port the same way you conect the PPS signal from a GPS. I >could build a device to sense the 60Hz power by aiming a photo >transistor at the florescent lights on the ceiling. I'm only half >joking. I think a neon pilot lamp and a photo cell both inside a >light proof metal box might work. > >The device driver that reads the PPS from a GPS will not care if the >signal is comming from the power line it will be hapy to time tage >every cycle with a nano second counter value. > >I think your plot is simply the delta between cycles. Or the period >of the 60Hz input. If you plot the period it might go up or down over >time > > > > > >On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Will Matney wrote: >> Chirs, >> >> What I would think that would be needed, software wise, is an app that's >> similar to the long term plots used in calibration. I would say that you >> know the ones I'm speaking of, as it is a graph that stretches over a month >> (or longer), and lets say the horizontal center line would represent 60 Hz, >> and above or below it would be how much it's off in which ever measuremet >> you want, either in frequency, or in PPM. Long term time is on the >> horizontal axis, and frequency+/- is the vertical. That was my thinking the >> other day, so it would log any shifts over a long timespan, really similar >> to the old paper plots off a frequency standard. Now whether you could use >> this with a sound card, I don't know, as one would need a frequency >> standard, along with the line frequency, as inputs so they could be >> compared. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  *** >> >> On 6/29/2011 at 4:11 PM Chris Albertson wrote: >> >>>On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Bill Dailey wrote: >>>> The FireWire thing makes sense but is there some way to make the >> computer itself a slave to an external source also? >>> >>>Why?  The computer has many clocks in it and they are not all derived >>>all from one master.  So to answer  we'd need to know which clock you >>>care about.  Obviously the clock to keep the current time of day can >>>be sync'd from s master source, like GPS or an Internet NTP server. >>> >>>Maybe it's best you describe the big picture. What are you trying to do? >>> >>>But if you mean the audio interface.  Then all you really need is a >>>stable clock on that.  There is an "elastic" buffer between the audio >>>interface and the software so the computer can go off and do >>>"whatever&q
Re: [time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Chirs, What I would think that would be needed, software wise, is an app that's similar to the long term plots used in calibration. I would say that you know the ones I'm speaking of, as it is a graph that stretches over a month (or longer), and lets say the horizontal center line would represent 60 Hz, and above or below it would be how much it's off in which ever measuremet you want, either in frequency, or in PPM. Long term time is on the horizontal axis, and frequency+/- is the vertical. That was my thinking the other day, so it would log any shifts over a long timespan, really similar to the old paper plots off a frequency standard. Now whether you could use this with a sound card, I don't know, as one would need a frequency standard, along with the line frequency, as inputs so they could be compared. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/29/2011 at 4:11 PM Chris Albertson wrote: >On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Bill Dailey wrote: >> The FireWire thing makes sense but is there some way to make the computer itself a slave to an external source also? > >Why? The computer has many clocks in it and they are not all derived >all from one master. So to answer we'd need to know which clock you >care about. Obviously the clock to keep the current time of day can >be sync'd from s master source, like GPS or an Internet NTP server. > >Maybe it's best you describe the big picture. What are you trying to do? > >But if you mean the audio interface. Then all you really need is a >stable clock on that. There is an "elastic" buffer between the audio >interface and the software so the computer can go off and do >"whatever" for 1/10th of a second and the interface wil buffer the >data, none gets lost as long as the buffer does not overflow. > >Modern CPUs do not run at a nice fixed rate. they are >non-deterministic and might execute many instructions at once or even >out of order. The newer Intel chips adjust their internal clock >rates to control power use and core temperature.If you need to >sync to the external world then software techniques are used > > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Electronic hardware & supplies
All, By this fall, I intend on opening an online business supplying electronic hardware, so to speak. I know most on here do a lot of home brewing circuits, and what I intend to sell is things to make this possible. I will be selling turret terminals, eyelets, FR4 unplated board, Micarda, IC adapter boards, square pad boards, and anything similar to what's known as "Manhatten Construction" type board products. I am also looking at stocking different hardware to go with them. I'm looking at the old prototyping ways, such as using eyelet and turret terminal boards for quick construction, and the tools for it. What I'm hoping for, is that if any on here could e-mail me, at my e-mail listed below, and let me know what you may be looking for in these types of supplies, or what you wish someone would stock. I will indeed look into it, and may include them if there is enough call for it. Right now, I am in the process of buying up stock for this fall, so now is the time to let me know. Thanks for any help on this. Send e-mails to: xfor...@citynet.net Thanks, Will Matney ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
Jim, No, when I bought the property, I rewired the entire building, all the way to the meter itself, so there was no chance of a leech. Also, I sold the building to a local concrete mfg., and they didn't have the keys until just after this happened. Plus, the boot insulates the meter from the connectors in the base, and it had the same unbroken seal on it, that I watched the guy place, as the power was disconnected that day. We think it happened here in our neighborhood too. Things weren't jiving right with our bills, and several of us starting making our own readings. We did this over six months, but when confronted, AEP claimed it was due to estimation, but the so-called reading was different from ours on each bill, and an estimation is supposed to be no longer than three months, or they told us. Next, I actually looked into the legality of placing an enclosure over the meter, with a lid on it, and the the reader would have to lift it in order to read it. If he had been there, and read the meter, it would show it by a re-setable LED burning inside the house. Now, you can buy dear cameras, and if somebody walks in front of the meter, you get a photo of it, but at the time, they weren't out. What we also found, was that we had the same meter reader here, that was supposed to do the area just up the road, where my shop was located. What several of us think, is that this meter reader, at the time of this, was out doing who knows what, and was using old meter readings that had been made, and just writing those down, while never visiting the meters. In a similar case, they caught a guy here, seeing his sweetheart, while supposedly reading meters for the water company, and he was fired. AEP, though, never investigated this, that we know of, and that was around 15 years ago, but we have no problems now, that we know of. Things like this, make me think, that these smart meters need to be policed, if we don't want to end up being royaly screwed. Making sure the timing is correct, on any of the meters, is the same as demanding calibration for any piece of equipment like scales, etc, and it ought ot be done more, since money changes hands. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 7:04 PM jim s wrote: >On 6/27/2011 6:33 PM, Will Matney wrote: >> >> >> I'll leave a parting shot at AEP on this. When I closed up the building I >> had the shop in, I went down to our AEP office at the time, and paid off my >> bill, the day after I had them to put a boot on the meter, and a new seal >> on it. It was read that day. Well, the next month, I get another bill, and >> I take it to AEP, and ask what's up, and show them a time stamped photo of >> the meter, with the seal and boot still on it. They had the audacity to >> tell me, that it still must have been something using the power, and the >> meter had been read, but it had never been tampered with. Now, you tell me >> what happened? I never paid that bill either. My guess, it all revolved >> around the meter reader. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >If this was in a building with a landlord showing the unit, it may be >that they never put the power back in their names, trying to be cheap >bastards. Did you go back and read it to see if the meter had any >power on it, or just take their word for it. Once you cut off your >responsibility, it doesnt' matter much what they say, it is going to be >their problem, not yours. > >The power company did nothing when I cut off service, and the power was >still on for some days after I vacated, but my bill was last and final, >and I don't know who got the bill for the extras. > >Other possibility is that you were being leeched off of all the time you >were in the shop, and when you pulled out all your stuff, the leech was >still hooked up. I'd actually be a bit more curious if this was the >case, as I'd like to get back part of all of my billing for the entire >time I was in the unit. > >Jim > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
Jason, What will be funny is when all the neighbourhood hoodlums start stealing all the antenna modules off the poles, or an enterprising teen electronics whiz kid starts jamming the signal. I can see antenna modules piling up at scrap yards, sitting beside the aluminum pop cans, as I speak. My major worry is about the time base they use, and whether we will end up getting the dirty end of the stick, so to speak. They figure Joe Blow down on the corner don't know enough about this stuff to question it, but just a few of us do. Also, as John mentioned, we have ignorant politicians who will go along with it. Also, like you, I haven't seen much printed about them, just what I've found. I figure, if we're footing the bill, I want it as precise as possible, and not in just the amount I use, but over the amount of time I used it. I'll leave a parting shot at AEP on this. When I closed up the building I had the shop in, I went down to our AEP office at the time, and paid off my bill, the day after I had them to put a boot on the meter, and a new seal on it. It was read that day. Well, the next month, I get another bill, and I take it to AEP, and ask what's up, and show them a time stamped photo of the meter, with the seal and boot still on it. They had the audacity to tell me, that it still must have been something using the power, and the meter had been read, but it had never been tampered with. Now, you tell me what happened? I never paid that bill either. My guess, it all revolved around the meter reader. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 6:17 PM Jason Rabel wrote: >I know the older style meters currently in use usually slow down over time (a minuscule amount, but still I guess it adds up). > >I do not know if the talk about demand meters and timing were about current meters or the new "smart meters"... > >I've seen some new meters (I'm assuming the smart ones) that show the time of day on them. They recently put up a bunch of >directional antennas on power poles and little boxes beneath them. My understanding is that they are creating a kind of private >wi-fi network... Talk about ultimate funny if L2's network jammed theirs... lol. But seriously, I would guess these meters would get >time from the private network. How the display time interacts with the internal timing I do not know. > >The power company has published exactly zero documents on these meters that I've been able to find. Just the usual propaganda that >these are good for you and will save you (and them) money! > >I worry too that these new meters are just a stepping stone to bill during on and off peak hours... > >If things get too far out of hand, we have ~65,000 sqft of rooftop that would be an excellent candidate for solar panels. > >The power company has been on full alert too it seems lately. We have a few offices that are empty, but we keep the power on for >maintenance reasons. Well a few months after the tenants moved out, a guy from the power company came to check the meter and such. >They noticed the usage dropped to near zero and they wanted to make sure the meter wasn't broken or they weren't stealing >electricity. Apparently the power company didn't get the memo about the recession and countless small businesses closing up shop. > > >On a somewhat similar note... I *finally* put my time servers on a UPS today. Now every time the power flashes they won't get reset! >Last week I found a guy on craigslist selling a couple APC Smart-UPS 750XL's. When I got there he also had FIVE battery packs to go >along with the two UPSes. I got them for a steal (I assumed the batteries would all be bad) and upon bringing them back to the shop >the batteries seemed in rather good condition after doing some testing and checking the date codes. Each UPS has 2 x 18Ah batteries, >and each battery pack has 4 x 18Ah. > > >> Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters, >> its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last >> PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing >> them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who >> were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes >> I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it. >> >> You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I >> recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the >> office, or something similar. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Chuck, It's according to who designed the transformer, and what iron, and wire they used. Some transformers can be ran up to 17 kilogauss (1.7 Tesla), but the magnetizing current really shoots up after 15 kg, and they can get hot. However, that's M-6 material, and I highly doubt they used that, as it is expensive. Most likely, for that, it was M-19, which is ran around 10-12 kg, but if it got that hot, it either didn't have enough iron in it, not enough turns in the primary, or it had an internal short, but it should have smoked at that. The problem is, that a lot of manufacturers spec'd transformers to run right on the edge, and Heathkit was guilty of doing that somewhat. The only reason was the cost came down, and the size. They also used a different figure on sizing the wire, and run it at a higher current density than they should, sometimes around 400 circular mils per ampere. A basic rule of thumb, for a decent transformer, is at least 700-800 cir. mils per ampere, and continuous duty, 1000 or over. If you get a chance, try out a common door bell transformer, and test the temperature. They were meant for intermittent duty, and they used to run pretty hot. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: >I picked up an older stereo amp to use its parts for a project. >With no load at all, the power transformer runs uncomfortably hot. >At 50 Hz it might make a good space heater for a while. > >-- >Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com >Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications > Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software" >10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.
I knew I should have added the leyden jars and the coil! I just saw an old Central Scientific induction coil with spark gap auction off on ebay a while back, and this made me think of it. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 3:11 PM J. Forster wrote: >Sadly no. You need a good impedance match from transmitter to antenna. > >A Tesla coil has a very high output Z. > >-John > > > > >> Bill, >> >> Now, if you could have connected a key to that, and a long wire antenna, >> you would have been in business! One gigantic spark gap transmitter. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/27/2011 at 5:36 PM William H. Fite wrote: >> >>>Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is >>>nothing "just" about it. While in high school I built quite a large >>> Tesla >>>coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark >>>gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were >> .15mfd--that >>>was a long time ago--capacitors. The finished product, in addition to >> being >>>dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a >> block >>>away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt >> in >>>the whole neighborhood. >>> >>>And that isn't even a big one... >>> >>>So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary >> and >>>secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer. >>> >>>Bill >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke >>> wrote: >>> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF >> transformer where the primary and secondary are resonated. I took him some time to >> find a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a capacitive top hat). The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary. >>>___ >>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>and follow the instructions there. >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
I bet they'll drop estimating your bill too! Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 2:54 PM Brooke Clarke wrote: >Hi John: > >Yes. > >In S. California there was a big investigation about their accuracy. It >turned out that they are better than the mechanical meters, BUT if time >of day metering is implemented along with the smart meter you power bill >can up by hundreds of percent. > >Have Fun, > >Brooke Clarke >http://www.PRC68.com > > >J. Forster wrote: >> IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power >> rationing or fines for "overconsumption" >> >> YMMV, >> >> -John >> >> >> >> >> >>> Will& Bill, >>> >> [snip] >> >> >>> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting >>> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >>> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >>> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >>> have a use for meter-readers... >>> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
John, Well, of course, that's so the fat cats, who are at the top at the utilitites, and the stock holders, make more bucks without having to upgrade the grid to do it. That's a prime example of Capitalism at work. How was the old saying, they would "squeeze a nickel until the buffalo s##ts". Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 2:49 PM J. Forster wrote: >IMO, smart meters are a greased, very slippery, slope toward power >rationing or fines for "overconsumption" > >YMMV, > >-John > > > > >> Will & Bill, > >[snip] > >> Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting >> everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >> monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >> real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >> have a use for meter-readers... > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.
Bill, Now, if you could have connected a key to that, and a long wire antenna, you would have been in business! One gigantic spark gap transmitter. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 5:36 PM William H. Fite wrote: >Without meaning to sound sassy, Brooke, let me assure you that there is >nothing "just" about it. While in high school I built quite a large Tesla >coil with a 16kv, 60ma neon transformer, a pressurized air-quenched spark >gap, a huge variac, and a bank of 50 .15mfd (I think they were .15mfd--that >was a long time ago--capacitors. The finished product, in addition to being >dangerous as hell to the careless operator could be heard more than a block >away and generated enough hash to bring TV and radio reception to a halt in >the whole neighborhood. > >And that isn't even a big one... > >So, no, it isn't magic and yes, it is an RF transformer with the primary and >secondary in resonance but, believe me, it is not "just" a transformer. > >Bill > > >On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > >> It turns out that a Tesla coil is not magical, it's just an RF transformer >> where the primary and secondary are resonated. I took him some time to find >> a mechanical structure (pipe mast insulated by wine bottles with a >> capacitive top hat). The high school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF >> transformers because they omit the resonance on the secondary. >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
It wasn't Analog Devices, like I thought, but Teridian Semi, and division of Maxim, who makes the chips. The part number in question was a 71M6511. The app note is 4889.pdf from Maxim. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 5:03 PM Will Matney wrote: >Jason, > >I've read some about the new meters, but AEP hasn't touched any of >ours...yet. They have demand monitoring here too, and you are correct, it >can really rack up a power bill. A good friend that owns a machine shop >watches his all the time. Once you get three phase power, the costs >skyrocket, as they bill you for all kinds of things. That was why I made >the decision of using a phase converter that time, and buying all of my >machinery with 230 Vac motors, though some were dual voltage. > >Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters, >its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last >PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing >them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who >were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes >I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it. > >You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I >recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the >office, or something similar. > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Jason Rabel wrote: > >>Will & Bill, >> >>Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires >(7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of >>transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines >and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v >>three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style. >> >>I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was >a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole). >>People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights >were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg >>was dead... >> >>I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand >meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but >>that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our >property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on >>a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost >of your electric... Just because you want to have the >>lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :( >> >>I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase >residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are >>commercial). >> >>Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting >everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >>monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer >real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >>have a use for meter-readers... >> >> >>___ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Three Phase Power
Jason, I've read some about the new meters, but AEP hasn't touched any of ours...yet. They have demand monitoring here too, and you are correct, it can really rack up a power bill. A good friend that owns a machine shop watches his all the time. Once you get three phase power, the costs skyrocket, as they bill you for all kinds of things. That was why I made the decision of using a phase converter that time, and buying all of my machinery with 230 Vac motors, though some were dual voltage. Without really setting down and looking at the circuitry on the new meters, its hard to say what might happen, as I was speculating earlier. The last PDF I read, was about the circuits they added to stop folks from bypassing them, or stealing the electricity. I think that it was Analog Devices who were making the IC's for these, but I may be wrong. There was 2-3 app notes I read, as I was interested in seeing how they did it. You are also right, in that they will do away with the meter readers. If I recall, I read that they use a radio link to send the info back to the office, or something similar. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 3:38 PM Jason Rabel wrote: >Will & Bill, > >Our (commercial) three phase power is fed by only two high-voltage wires (7,200v I think) which each pole has a pair of >transformers. I can only assume one generates the 220v single phase lines and the other is the high-leg delta. Around here 230v >three phase delta seems to be more common than 208v Y style. > >I remember a couple years ago we had a transformer die (thankfully it was a passive failure and not a massive fireball on the pole). >People were wondering why their machines weren't working (but the lights were on)... Sure enough hooking up a meter and the high leg >was dead... > >I did read somewhere that this change might have an effect on demand meters? There was no further explanation unfortunately, but >that does kind of worry me as I know about 90% of the meters on our property are that style. The power company just loves to tack on >a "demand charge" to the bill, which can often double, or triple the cost of your electric... Just because you want to have the >lights on, A/C running, and an air-compressor... :( > >I've never seen or heard of anyone here in Houston with three phase residential (except for farmers, but I guess they are >commercial). > >Centerpoint Energy has reached the epitome of laziness and is converting everyone over to "smart meters" so people can better >monitor their usage... In reality it does nothing more than offer real-time monitoring for the power company, and they no longer >have a use for meter-readers... > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer
Rob, That's what I thought. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 9:17 PM Rob Kimberley wrote: >I'm sure their software used to be free. >Rob K > >-Original Message- >From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On >Behalf Of Will Matney >Sent: 27 June 2011 8:19 PM >To: time-nuts@febo.com >Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer > >I just got the below ad in an e-mail from Symmetricom: > >Order any SyncServerR NTP network time server and get 25% off a Domain Time >II Starter Kit - includes the comprehensive synchronization software suite >for Windows. > >Best, > >Will > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.
Brooke, I have several units made by ESI that I use for this, and one is the big 3-piece rack unit that contains the bridge, and the two suppies with the detectors, one a mirror galvenometer. I also have one of their 4-1/2 digit LCR meters for the bench, and three smaller units, two digital, and one analog 250BE. It seems like you can sneeze sometimes, and change the reading, just by the leads placement, when trying to do some exact measurements. The test leads have a lot to do with it, in and how they're made. I noticed some of the new Asian made Kelvin leads using two plain wires to each clip, and I can see headaches trying to use them. All mine use shielded, twisted-wire leads, and you still have to watch on them. I use a panel mounted fixture for all small work, where there is no lead length to worry about. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 12:08 PM Brooke Clarke wrote: >Hi Will: > >I got interested in RF coils and spent a couple of years winding coils, >and measuring them on a Boonton Q meter. That led to Tesla and I got a >number of his publications. It turns out that a Tesla coil is not >magical, it's just an RF transformer where the primary and secondary are >resonated. I took him some time to find a mechanical structure (pipe >mast insulated by wine bottles with a capacitive top hat). The high >school "Tesla Coils" really are just RF transformers because they omit >the resonance on the secondary. Tesla did not understand Q and thought >it was something magic. > >Measuring impedance is very different than measuring things with >connectors, both in terms of backing out the connection parasitics and >in terms of using a measurement method that minimizes errors (for >example network analyzers only work when the impedance is within a >couple orders of magnitude of 50 Ohms). >http://www.prc68.com/I/Z.shtml > >Have Fun, > >Brooke Clarke >http://www.PRC68.com > > >Will Matney wrote: >> ... >> >> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and >> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the time >> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them, only >> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any >> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help >> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and >> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I >> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their >> students read it at one time. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Symmetricom SyncServer
I just got the below ad in an e-mail from Symmetricom: Order any SyncServer® NTP network time server and get 25% off a Domain Time II Starter Kit — includes the comprehensive synchronization software suite for Windows. Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.
John, I have the MIT books, and they are good. I think I listed, "Magnetic Circuits and Transformers", in the references at the bottom of the article. As a matter of fact, I used a BH curve chart in that book, I believe, to calculate the relative permeability of all the alloys I listed, at the flux density given. I actually had to blow up the chart image on a scanner in order to see it better, as they had too many curves on it. May main concern was keeping it as simple as possible, and not adding a bunch of info that was not really needed to do the calculations. The article "Transformers", at Wikipedia, touched on most of the rest, so I didn't add them. There was a few complaints about what I wrote about software, at the very first, and I think they were by the software authors. One had modified the article, wanting it to sound like software was the only thing used now, and was the only thing usable, when in fact, all the software is based on the very equations listed. Now the large manufacturers do use FEA software, which shows what the flux flow will look like in the core, etc., but for what we use, you don't need anything that sophisticated. They use it to minimize the core size, etc, as they're penching pennies, and trying to keep the weight down, on things that large. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 11:42 AM J. Forster wrote: >If anybody is really interested in transformer design, they should look at >the classics, like: > >Fitzgerald & Kingsley >or >"Magnetic Circuits and Transformers" by MIT Staff > >They go through magnetic design, from soup to nuts. > >Also, the MIT Rad Lab Books "Components" volume. > >The units for design have changed in the last 50 years or so, BTW. > >For RF and ferrites, there are applcation notes from several makers, like >Fair-Rite, that walk you through designs. > >While it's a big, complex field, you rarely have to hone a design to a >razor's edge. Close enough very often works fine. > >Best, > >-John > >=== > > > >> John, >> >> Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia, >> writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and >> impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for >> Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody >> added >> a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how >> the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to be >> a >> copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of >> cleaning up. >> >> I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and >> audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the >> time >> to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them, >> only >> power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any >> formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help >> would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and >> electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I >> even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their >> students read it at one time. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote: >> >>>A good article, IMO. >>> >>>-John >>> >>> >>> >>> For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer design, the link is below. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Poul-Henning, Running the transformer that way won't burn it up at that instant, it just causes it to run hotter, because it's closer to saturation, and it shortens the life span a good bit. A lot of the new ones now being made, are wound to run on either frequency (wound for just under 50 Hz), so they can export them internationally. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 3:39 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <4e086d33.6040...@ozindfw.net>, Oz-in-DFW writes: >> >> >>On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: >>> However, I should have >>> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line >>> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. >>Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are >>specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. > >The only thing I know of, apart from clocks, that you should not run >on the wrong frequency are oldfashioned mechanical shavers. > >If it has a motor you're fine, but if it just has a magnet and a >coil and relies on mechanical resonance: don't even think about it. > >Anything else: Just plug it in, after you checked the 110/200 V setting. > >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 >p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 >FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe >Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Transformer design.
John, Thanks. I started that article back in 2006, originally at Wikipedia, writing at least 80% of it, and actually added the portion on RF and impedance transformers last year, if I recall. It got too big for Wikipedias liking, and they moved it to Wikibooks. I noticed somebody added a good deal on the manufacturing of large transformers, just now, or how the coils are wound. I just hope it isn't copyrighted, as it looked to be a copy and paste from another document, plus the English needs a bit of cleaning up. I encourage any on here to add to it, especially in the design of RF and audio impedance transformers. I wanted to do more, but never found the time to set down and do it, plus I never really designed that many of them, only power transformers. What I wrote was the basics, but didn't get into any formulae, etc, which I would have liked to have seen included. Any help would be appreciated, not just by me, but our entire electrical and electronics community as a whole, especially any students who read it. I even found a link on Google, from a Russian university, who had their students read it at one time. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 10:59 AM J. Forster wrote: >A good article, IMO. > >-John > > > > >> For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer >> design, the link is below. >> >> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Transformer design.
For any interested in the link for the Wikibooks article on transformer design, the link is below. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Mark, Transients, etc, might cause some hiccups, as I thought about this too. Plus, there's not much one can do about them, unless you look at what happened via a waveform, at the time. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 9:43 AM Mark Spencer wrote: >I once worked on a project in India where we had electrical problems that went away when reportedly the building owners watered the building ground system.   I never got an explanation if there was supposed to be a functional neutral connection or if the ground system was serving as the neutral. To get back on the 60 Hz measurement topic, I tried measuring the phase difference between the 60 Hz line here in BC and the 1pps output of my thunderbolt and a sample of the results are shown in the attached file. I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not.   My signal source is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave.  Setting the trigger point on the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine wave from the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope.  But I'm wondering if changes in line voltage could be confusing things.  Regards Mark Spencer  - Original Message From: Morris Odell To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:31:26 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > >mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth > (dirt) as a > >return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At the consumer end there is a pole mounted transformer and a fenced off earth stake. It seems to work reasonably well even in dry conditions but you occasionally hear stories of a large quadruped coming to nasty end if they get inside the enclosure. Obviously there would be a radial potential field in the ground and on the surface and quite a voltage can develop across their legs. Morris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
That made me laugh, as unsightly and farm seems to go well together (no matter how you keep it cleaned up)! Wonder what he would have done, if after he pulled the grounds, that he found a prized horse dead from electrocution? One thing about here in the US, well at least now, and after having the NEC, is that an installation can't get past inspection without a ground rod at the meter, and most times one at the pole too. Plus, if you have copper or steel water pipe in the house, it's connected to gorund, and any natural gas system piping is connected to a ground rod at its meter, or it should be. One would think that the earths resistance, especially in a dry climate, would be too high to work correctly, at all, without having a neutral and ground running with the hot. I would think you would get a lot of brown-outs over this? I learn something new every day. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 12:02 PM Lee Mushel wrote: >Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse >than "pip" time. I live in a rural area where this so-called "stray >voltage" was a problem for years. I guess no "real electrician" ever said >anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious >problem would be known to everyone "tomorrow." But it never happened! >And this so-called "mystery" went on for years! And one day I got a phone >call from my neighbor, "horse Bob" saying that his horses couldn't drink >from the water tank. He was certain that they were receiving a "shock" as >soon as their noses touched the water. > >I went down to his "paddock" and installed enough grounds to overcome the >general lack of such on his property and then went home. The horses were >drinking normally. A couple of hours later he called and said "the problem >is back." A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had >removed all of my grounding provisions. When I asked him why he had done >that I was informed that "those wires and rods are unsightly." > >Lee K9WRU >- Original Message - >From: "Robert LaJeunesse" >To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > >Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > > >> Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for >> the >> stray voltage that affects farmers: >> >> http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748 >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Eric Garner >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party >> >> Did it sound like this: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Oz, Some companies in the US are producing 50 hz transformers in their mass produced units so they can readily sell them to the European market and here. That is a plus for us, if we buy one, as they will run a lot cooler, and last longer over it, when we apply 60 Hz to one. There's a bit more of an amount of iron in a 50 Hz, which means for the applied line voltage, the flux density will be lower, and thus, the whole thing will run cooler. However, for a European, 50 Hz, transformer, you'll have a multiple primary, if it's made to run here or there, as if I recall, their line voltage is about double what ours is. When I wrote most of the Wikibooks article on Transformer Design, I did a major study on transformers, and probably now have 30+ books on the subject alone. Some of the better information I read was written by Col. William T McLyman, in his series of books on the design of transformers for NASA. Another good book was written by engineers at MIT, and they still update it, since it was written in the 1940's. From them, though, I learned a good deal about their construction from wall-wart size, all they way up to the huge oil-filled ones, now sitiing at our power stations. Plus, I used to sell equipment to Kuhlman Electric, in Lexington, Ky., and another transformer manufacturer in Cincinnati, Foster Transformer, and was privy to how they built the things. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 6:44 AM Oz-in-DFW wrote: >On 6/24/2011 9:20 PM, Will Matney wrote: >> However, I should have >> said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line >> voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. >Most modern commodity transformers for electronic power supplies are >specified for rated performance from 47 to 63 Hz. > >Most power distribution system products for use in the US I've seen are >rated at 60 ± 3 Hz though some stuff from European manufacturers is >rated at ± 2.5 Hz. I guess it's a holdover from 50 Hz specs. > >The power companies seem to spec normal variation at a max of 0.1 Hz >though I understand the max offset they use by agreement for phase >adjustment is about 0.02 Hz. > >A lot of large machinery has a a great deal of independence from the AC >line frequency. Even a 60 year old paper mill I did some work for had a >mechanical phase adjustment driven by large DC motors on the machines in >their line. IIRC the controls guy said they could compensate for 1 Hz >line frequency variations over 10 seconds. This was a lot faster than I >expected. Paper mills have lots of spinning mass that takes a long time >to influence. > >Oz (in DFW) > >-- >mailto:o...@ozindfw.net >Oz >POB 93167 >Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) > > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Here's another thought on all of this. How will this effect the newer electronic watthour meters at peoples homes? I remember looking at the schematics on one of these, and I don't remember seeing an internal time base, crystal, or resonator in the circuit, so I suppose they might get their timing from the 60 Hz line. Lets say that the frequency is slowed a small amount, and over the year, they lose a little, which amounts to pocket change per customer they lost, but multiply that by all the people using it, well that's a lot of saw bucks. Also, if it was the reverse, and the frequency was sped up by a small amount, that might translate into paying out more, as I'm not sure exactly how those new meters work. The only way I could see this happening, would be that the meters were not using an internal timebase of some sort, thus depending on the line frequency for timing, and raising and lowering with the line frequency over a time period. Any thoughts on this? Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 8:02 PM Tom Van Baak wrote: >> As for monitoring 60 Hz, I was doing some on line research, and found some interesting power line frequency meters at: >> >> http://www.laurels.com/frequency.htm >> >> Surprisingly affordable (less than $300). >> >> Tom Frank > >For this experiment you want an [accumulated] phase error meter, >not a line frequency meter. Remember, NERC is not dramatically >changing the 60 Hz frequency; the proposal is simply to eliminate >the steering that used to keep the cycles roughly aligned with UTC. > >So a 3 or 4 or 5 digit sampling frequency counter will not reveal >the change. But over hours or days a mains connected kitchen >clock compared with your cell phone, will. In general, to see the >effect, you want something that faithfully tracks the phase and >compares it to a reference that's at least 1 ppm accurate. > >Another approach, the one I use, is to continuously compare >60 Hz phase against UTC using a TIC, handling rollovers, etc. > >/tvb > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party- big sync motors
Bill, I never did set back and think why they used them, but that would make sense. The new plant engineer they hired, during my time there, talked them into installing a new power house (air compressor system) in the paint department. However, he had ordered screw compressors, running on 460 V, 3 phase motors. He was cursed by every electrician on that job over the big cables that had to be pulled for the current they consumed. I also wondered if it could have had something to do with the starting torque of the sync motors over induction motors. Those old compressors had flywheels on them almost the diameter of the motors that ran them, and it would take a huge amount of torque to set them to turning, especially when the compressor was pumping into a pipe full of compressed air. It would be about like trying to start or run the engine in your car with the tail pipe stopped up. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 10:12 PM Bill Hawkins wrote: >Will, and the rest of you fascinated by power distribution, > >A big synchronous motor allows its power factor to be changed by >changing the field current for a given load. The motor can be >adjusted to look like a resistive load instead of inductive, or >even capacitive to correct plant power factor. Look it up. > >Industrial power consumers are charged extra for power factors >less than unity because the distribution system must carry more >current for the same watts as the power factor departs from >unity. > >Induction motors have inductive power factors because there must >be slip between the rotating field and the speed of the rotor. >Synchronous motors don't have slip, just phase angle. Zero angle >looks like a resistive load, yes? > >The compressors don't have to run in sync. > >Best, >Bill Hawkins >(who heaves a nostalgic sigh just thinking about those fine old > engines of progress) > >-Original Message- >From: Will Matney >Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:11 PM >To: time-nuts@febo.com >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > >I quite like your generator description of "huge rotating lumps of >copper-ensnarled iron". It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I >was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge >open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air >compressors, and why they used this type of motor is anybodies guess. If I >remember right, they were rated at around 200 HP, or so, and were about 8 >feet in diameter. The rotor shaft was mounted on huge babbit bearings upon >concrete pillars, and about 1/3 of the motor sat in a pit in the concrete >floor. I used to have to repair the brushes on the slip rings constantly, >until I talked the boss into adding a shunt across the n.o. contacts on the >250 Vdc contactors to quench any arcing. The motors stator itself ran on >4160 Vac. Would the other compressors have to run in sync somehow, as all >of them had these motors, just some a little smaller than the others? They >drove large single cylinder compressors that fed something like a 6 inch >air line (pipe). However, they all did not run at once, and they only did >when there was a larger demand for air. Timing is the only thing I can lay >this to, and was wondering about it. > >Best, > >Will > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Bill, I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words, counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral, ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is attached to a ground rod at the home too. No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb making contact with the hot on the top of the pole. I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained, they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more trouble. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >Will, > >What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do you >mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth (dirt) as a >return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 center >tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary side of >the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return path >gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer are >still connected. > >If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide a very >reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run. > >Just how long are these single wire runs ? Do you know what the voltage is on >that top wire ? > >Could you clarify this a bit more ? > >BillWB6BNQ > > >Will Matney wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the >> general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, >> WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your >> thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the >> way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. >> >> I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 >> miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the >> Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot >> wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the >> telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug >> onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of >> the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, >> if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like >> that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat >> at Ironton, or at South Point. The three pha
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hah, I really mis-spelled industrial didn't I? Sorry folks, the spell check doesn't work on my e-mail now for some odd reason. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 7:55 PM Will Matney wrote: >Bill, > >I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the >general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, >WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your >thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the >way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. > >I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 >miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the >Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot >wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the >telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug >onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of >the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, >if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like >that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat >at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the >highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all >residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's >because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now >that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their >place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes >the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by >the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way >AEP wants to do it. > >Best, > >Will > >>*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >>On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >>Will Matney wrote: >>snip >>As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads >where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's >only single phase on the poles. >> >>Best, >>Will >> >>Will, >>I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In >residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. >Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a >transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower >level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. >Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a >transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there >was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. >>The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That >is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single >phase) alternately across different phases. >>At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize >there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly >along the East Coast. >>I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? > >>BillWB6BNQ > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Bill, I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way AEP wants to do it. Best, Will >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >Will Matney wrote: >snip >As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's only single phase on the poles. > >Best, >Will > >Will, >I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. >The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single phase) alternately across different phases. >At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly along the East Coast. >I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? >BillWB6BNQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Mitchell, I'm not sure, as I couldn't see anything to hint at the maker on the cabinet. I also couldn't see who made the clock movement either, as their was no name on the clock face. Of course, companies like HP and others bought those from a good OEM manufacturer to use, so I doubt they made the movement. I take it that that is an ocxo on the one side? If so, there could be some identifying mark on the case somewhere, or inside the metal box. Another place to look would be on either side of the PC board, especially on the trace side, as they sometimes etched the company name on them. I wouldn't mind owning one of these myself, it's neat! Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 6:06 PM Mitchell Janoff wrote: >Last year I picked up a frequency standard that inputs 120VAC (or 12V DC) >and drives a 6 0Hz Synchron motor based clock and also has a 120V 60 CPS >output on the back. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it, but now I >know I can run my old telechron synchronous clocks with this when the power >companies stop the 60Hz. There is no manufacturer's name on the unit, but >maybe a list member can identify it from the pictures at: >http://www.telechron.com/60CPS/60CPS.html > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I quite like your generator description of "huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron". It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air compressors, and why they used this type of motor is anybodies guess. If I remember right, they were rated at around 200 HP, or so, and were about 8 feet in diameter. The rotor shaft was mounted on huge babbit bearings upon concrete pillars, and about 1/3 of the motor sat in a pit in the concrete floor. I used to have to repair the brushes on the slip rings constantly, until I talked the boss into adding a shunt across the n.o. contacts on the 250 Vdc contactors to quench any arcing. The motors stator itself ran on 4160 Vac. Would the other compressors have to run in sync somehow, as all of them had these motors, just some a little smaller than the others? They drove large single cylinder compressors that fed something like a 6 inch air line (pipe). However, they all did not run at once, and they only did when there was a larger demand for air. Timing is the only thing I can lay this to, and was wondering about it. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 5:38 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <4e066fac.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: > >>Infact, Poul-Henning and I had the idea to test this on our grid to see >>what kind of performance we would get out of it. He sent me a >>transformer prepped for the work, but it seems both of us got caught up >>doing other stuff to follow through, but this is a good trigger. > >Yeah, life, don't talk to me about life... :-) > >Actually what I wanted to measure back then was the phase-stiffness >of the grid between us. > >This may be relevant to Tom's experiment as well, and in particular >to those of you living in California, so let me explain what it is: > >Imagine two time-nuts, N1 and N2, two generators G1 and G2 and >various chains of transformators T1a... and T2a... in the same >powergrid but some n*100km apart. > > >G1 --- T1a -+- T1b T2b -+- T2a --- G2 >| | > T1c T2c >| | > N1 N2 > >If all the power is generated by G1, the absolute GPS relative >phase seen at N1, depends on G1, T1a and T1c, which N2 sees >the combined effects og G1, T1a, T1b, T2b, T2c. When G2 produces >all the power, the picture reverses and when G1 and G2 each produce >half the phase difference btween N1 and N2 should be constant. > >(But not zero, because they may not be on the same of the three >phases and because grid transformers shifts phases around to match >things up. Long story, not for today.) > >Which way you push power through T1b and T2b affects what they do >to the phase of the grid on either side so the phase difference >seen between N1 and N2 depends on how power flows in the grid. > >The reason everybody in the same grid sees the same frequency, is >that when you have a big heavy generator, frequency is a usable >proxy measurements for energy. > >If you add an electrical load, the generator have to produce more >electricity which takes more mechanical work causing the >turbine to slow down. And vice versa. > >Typically, a frequency deviation of as little as 0.02 % will cause >regulation of turbine steam. > >Load changes also cause the voltage to change, but this is much >less pronounced and much harder to measure/regulate with, primarily >because of the very noisy measurements. > >So the power-grid basically doesn't use voltage for regulation. >Various mechanisms keep the voltage inside a +/- 10% tolerance >at various points and that's that. > >With me so far ? > >All this breaks down once we start adding power-producers which >are not based on huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron. > >Solar cells, wind generators, HVDC transmission, electrical cars >feeding battery power and all these other fancy modern things, feed >power into the grid with a computer controlled switch mode gadget >which just tracks whatever phase and frequency your grid has right >now. > >When the frequency changes on one of these switchmodes, they just >follow the grid, they do not try to join in on the "voting" on >the frequency by trying to pull the grid ahead or behind depending >on their power-state. > >As the grid moves from big rotating lumps of iron to switch mode >attachment, a larger and larger fraction of the generation capacity >free-wheels in the frequency 'voting'. > >At some point, the system will no longer be stable, and something >has to happen. > >My particular corner of the world is ground-zero for this, because >we generate 1/5th of our electricity with windmills and have >relatively little rotating machinery running in good winds. > >So f
Re: [time-nuts] How accurate are cheap radio controlled clocks?
I have a cheapie digital "atomic" clock I bought at Walmart several years ago, and I forget the brand, but it works spot on with my PC's clock. That is as long as you make sure to place it where the signal is strong enough for it to update itself. However, it does not update all the time, and reads the WWVB signal at around 4 in the afternoon and at several times to sync itself. I think they set it at that time because of signal strength on the east coast being it strongest about then. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 5:37 PM David J Taylor wrote: >From: "Dr. David Kirkby" >[] >> I was using 198.00 kHz longwave here in the UK. Unless there's some >> digital processing going on before the signal is AM modulated, this >> can't explain the problem. > >David, > >I'm listening to the Radio 3 FM transmission in Central Scotland. The >07:00 pips appear to be spot on when compared to my GPS-locked PC, using >my simple analog clock program: > > http://www.satsignal.eu/software/disk.html#TinyBen > >It sounds as if your radio clock is off, so as others have suggested, try >positioning it for a clear, interference-free good strength signal and >retest. > >Cheers, >David >-- >SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements >Web: http://www.satsignal.eu >Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Don, I haven't looked into it for several years, well over 12, but I will take a gander at this. What brand was the converter? After reading about everyone out of the US having 3 phase, it makes one wonder why we didn't do that years ago. As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's only single phase on the poles. The only way they would run it through, would be to supply some large business, and that was the shortest way to get it there. Plus, even though you have a 3 phase line in front, or behind, your building, you have to pay for the transformers, and everything else to get it into the building. I understand paying for the meters, but the line and the transformers too? One would think they would gladly install them over the money they would make from supplying the power. Anyhow, back on topic. One could simply connect a low voltage transformer, say 5 or 12 Vac, to the line to take the measurement from, attenuate it down, and use a logging type frequency counter, maybe a PC ran counter, and record any variance in the frequency over the year. Using a pc based oscilloscope comes to mind too, as most of them have a frequency counter in the software. Last, one might be able to use the sound card, and some kludged software, say something written quick in Visual Basic, to record this. Here you would use the mic jack, and monitor the incoming signal. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 11:11 PM Don Latham wrote: >Now you can get true three phase delta, with speed control, from single >phase 220, non rotary. With wise buying, I got one to run a 1 hp mill >motor for around $100 inflated rasbuckniks. >Don > >Will Matney >> I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants >> to >> run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use >> converters, >> or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP >> about >> installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was >> enough for me. I installed a rotary converter, which I home-brewed, made >> from a surplus 25 Hp, 3 Ph. motor, and a 120 volt, 1 ph. pony motor to >> start it rolling. The so-called static converters are nothing but a >> starter >> using capacitors, and when they drop out, you lose 1/3 of the power you >> should have from the motor. The other route, you pick up the third phase >> from the converter motors winding. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 7:04 PM Hal Murray wrote: >> >>>mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: >>>> It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and >>>> L3 >>>> phases of the house. :) >>> >>>Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? >>> >>>In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, >>> 240 >>>single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected >>> to >>>earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. >>> Most >>>things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is >> balanced >>>there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole >>> to >>>house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size >> wire) >>> >>>You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. >> Here >>>are PG&E's rules: >>> http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf >>> >>> >>>-- >>>These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>___ >>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>and follow the instructions there. >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > >-- >"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and ar
[time-nuts] HP 5245L Frequency Counter
For any nixie tube fans, I ran across this HP 5245L Frequency Counter on ebay earlier, starting off at $9.99. http://cgi.ebay.com/T272-Agilent-5245L-HP-5245L-Frequency-Counter-/120742367 542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1cce5136 Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants to run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use converters, or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP about installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was enough for me. I installed a rotary converter, which I home-brewed, made from a surplus 25 Hp, 3 Ph. motor, and a 120 volt, 1 ph. pony motor to start it rolling. The so-called static converters are nothing but a starter using capacitors, and when they drop out, you lose 1/3 of the power you should have from the motor. The other route, you pick up the third phase from the converter motors winding. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 7:04 PM Hal Murray wrote: >mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: >> It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 >> phases of the house. :) > >Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? > >In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, 240 >single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected to >earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. Most >things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is balanced >there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole to >house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size wire) > >You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. Here >are PG&E's rules: > http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf > > >-- >These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Scope CRT, transformer, and hardware for sale.
All, The parts are sold, and thanks again! Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 6:09 PM Will Matney wrote: >I have a RCA 4572 round scope CRT for sale, including the socket, mounting >hardware (face clamp, and neck tube), HV multiplier assembly, and the >transformer. I also have a 5" diagonal bezel, with the graticule insert, >and the mounting hardware to go with it (threaded studs). The CRT is a >round, flat faced CRT, with no burn-in, and is working, as is the >transformer, and multiplier. I am asking $30 for all, plus shipping. I >thought I would ask here before I place it on fleabay. Please e-mail me if >you're interested. > >Thanks, > >Will > >xfor...@citynet.net > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
John, A lot of it depends on the design of the transformer, or how close to saturation its core is ran, and the way the laminations are stacked. The inverters that were self-oscillating, and used "tickler" bias windings, depended on saturation to work correctly, and the transformer determined the oscillation frequency. If you're using a driver/oscillator, you don't need a saturating transformer, but since square waves might be involved, there is a different formula you use to design them. Also, you can make the stack, 1/2 butt stacked, and 1/2 interleaved. What I found in using a transformer, ran at a lower flux density, is the best to use in this, say around 10 kilogauss. I think some of the so-called filament transformers were designed with just enough iron in them to get by, and ran close to saturation to begin with. I de-rated the power on the inverter I built, and it was running a modified square wave, and I got by. Also, I've read that a triangle wave is good for this, or better than a sqaure wave. Now, I wouldn't have used the transformer I did with a pure square wave, as it most likely would need to be modified for use like the author found out. Take a look at Wikibooks for Transformer Design, and it tells a lot of info on this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 5:40 PM John Miles wrote: >The C. S. Stong 'Amateur Scientist' anthology included a 110V 60 Hz >telescope-tracking drive generator project that used a reversed filament >transformer. It was a bleeding-edge design for the time, using a CK722 Wien >bridge oscillator (complete with HP-style pilot lamp AGC) and a couple of >early germanium power transistors. The author found that he had to rewind >the transformer to cut down on saturation loss, but he was otherwise able to >get it to work OK with the crude solid state technology available at the >time. > >The author didn't say as much, but I wonder if transformers sold as >'filament' transformers were designed to saturate intentionally, to limit >the inrush current they would otherwise apply to cold heaters. I would >expect modern transformers to work better, just because their manufacturers >are more concerned with minimizing losses than they were back in the day. > >-- john, KE5FX > >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts- >> boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Neville Michie >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 5:03 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz >> from a UPS >> >> >> An interesting question about making a 50/60 hertz source, >> Does a 120 to 12 volt transformer have enough inductance to use as a >> 12 to 120 volt transformer? >> Remember, the inductance is proportional to the square of the no of >> turns, where as voltage is proportional. >> cheers, >> Neville Michie >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- >> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Neville, Yes, it works just as well. I have seen companies use this to make tube bias supplies, when all the windings wouldn't fit on one transformer. They would use the filament supply, and tie the 6 or 12 volt coil of a smaller transformer to it, then use the 120 vac side as the bias supply. Also, they do something similar to this in making a double-isolation transformer, by just using two transformers tied together this way. There are losses, of course, I^2 R, etc, but it still works well in the end. The inverter I constructed, used a 24 vac, center tapped, transformer, making 12 Volts for each 1/2 coil, and fed the center tap with 12 Vdc. The switching transistors connect to each end of the winding, and merely switch the current to ground. It's really the same way they made the old vibrator supplies years ago, except they ran at a higher frequency so they could get the transformer size down for automotive radios. After that, they switched from vibrators to Germanium transistors to do about the same thing, except added bias windings. About all you need to add, besides the transistors, are snubbers to kill the spikes, and an oscillator/driver. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 10:03 AM Neville Michie wrote: >An interesting question about making a 50/60 hertz source, >Does a 120 to 12 volt transformer have enough inductance to use as a >12 to 120 volt transformer? >Remember, the inductance is proportional to the square of the no of >turns, where as voltage is proportional. >cheers, >Neville Michie > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Scope CRT, transformer, and hardware for sale.
I have a RCA 4572 round scope CRT for sale, including the socket, mounting hardware (face clamp, and neck tube), HV multiplier assembly, and the transformer. I also have a 5" diagonal bezel, with the graticule insert, and the mounting hardware to go with it (threaded studs). The CRT is a round, flat faced CRT, with no burn-in, and is working, as is the transformer, and multiplier. I am asking $30 for all, plus shipping. I thought I would ask here before I place it on fleabay. Please e-mail me if you're interested. Thanks, Will xfor...@citynet.net ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
I took a look around at a few semiconductor manufacturers, and found an app note from Freescale (Motorola), on their MC3PHAC AC motor drive chip. It does use an external timebase of 4 MHz, but they only used a resonator, and this could be made way more precise. Though this is a 3 phase controller IC, they do make drives for smaller single phase motors, but I'm not sure who makes the controller IC's, nor do I know about any external time bases for them. It could be as simple as buying a surplus, single phase, AC motor drive, and setting it up for the correct speed, and adding a good timebase in place of a resonator. I have seen these types of drives sell for pennies on the dollar on ebay. It might be worth taking a look at. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 1:38 PM J. Forster wrote: >> John, >> >> I forgot to add, that an H bridge could work for a clock motor, since >> those are used to drive ac motors in industry every day. > >Yes, of course. > >> You would have a sqauare >> wave though, unless it was modified. If I recall, that's the way a lot of >> the AC drives work today, using four sets of switching semiconductors, >> unless the motor is small enough to be ran off a power chip. In this >case, I wonder how an AC drive would act if it ran a clock motor? > >The static inverters should not have issues with an induction motor. > >> Set it at 60 Hz, and be done with it? > >Yes, but you have to get to the H bridge timing logic to do that. That's >why you need the prints. > >-John > >=== >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 12:55 PM J. Forster wrote: >> >>>Certainly, the inverters can run that low, but if so they sing a lot. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>-John >>> >>>= >>> John, I didn't mean to say you said all that, just that the new inverters are cheap. I wrote that I thought some ran at around 1 kHZ, as I had an old one that did, and used a toroidal transformer in it. The new ones, as far as >> I am aware, are similar to the new-style switching power supplies, like >> the ones Maxim and a few others show in their app notes. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 12:37 PM J. Forster wrote: >> Chris, > >No I didn't say the output was 1000 Hz. No way. > >What I said (a bit amplified) was that the cheapie inverters use a high >frequency, think 50 KHzish, DC-DC converter to make about 170 VDC, then >use that to feed an "H" bridge, driven with either a square wave or a >modified square wave, to make the output. You snmply need to vary that >drive frequency to get 50, or 60, or any frequency you want. > >There is no output transformer. In fact, that is the cleverness of the >design... no big, heavy, expensive magnetics. > >-John > >=== > >> As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much >> junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run >> small >> TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all have >> hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 >> Vac CT transformer, on the cheap >>> >>>That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >>>current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >>>input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >>>need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >>>in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then >>> a >>>cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >>>voltage. >>> >>>The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >>>acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >>>fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >>>no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >>>fails. >>> >>>This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you >>> don't >>>want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. >>> >>>As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >>>hard to do. >>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>Chris Albertson >>>Redondo Beach, California > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com >>>
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Sorry, that should have said DC drive, as I was writing while brain storming. However, a variable AC drive, which does control the frequency, may be able to be used. I would have to look at this more, but it might be possible, and these can be bought on the cheap at surplus sellers. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 4:12 PM Will Matney wrote: >John, > >I forgot to add, that an H bridge could work for a clock motor, since those >are used to drive ac motors in industry every day. You would have a sqauare >wave though, unless it was modified. If I recall, that's the way a lot of >the AC drives work today, using four sets of switching semiconductors, >unless the motor is small enough to be ran off a power chip. In this case, >I wonder how an AC drive would act if it ran a clock motor? Set it at 60 >Hz, and be done with it? > >Best, > >Will > >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 6/25/2011 at 12:55 PM J. Forster wrote: > >>Certainly, the inverters can run that low, but if so they sing a lot. >> >>Best, >> >>-John >> >>= >> >>> John, >>> >>> I didn't mean to say you said all that, just that the new inverters are >>> cheap. I wrote that I thought some ran at around 1 kHZ, as I had an old >>> one >>> that did, and used a toroidal transformer in it. The new ones, as far as >I >>> am aware, are similar to the new-style switching power supplies, like >the >>> ones Maxim and a few others show in their app notes. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Will >>> >>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >>> >>> On 6/25/2011 at 12:37 PM J. Forster wrote: >>> >>>>> Chris, >>>> >>>>No I didn't say the output was 1000 Hz. No way. >>>> >>>>What I said (a bit amplified) was that the cheapie inverters use a high >>>>frequency, think 50 KHzish, DC-DC converter to make about 170 VDC, then >>>>use that to feed an "H" bridge, driven with either a square wave or a >>>>modified square wave, to make the output. You snmply need to vary that >>>>drive frequency to get 50, or 60, or any frequency you want. >>>> >>>>There is no output transformer. In fact, that is the cleverness of the >>>>design... no big, heavy, expensive magnetics. >>>> >>>>-John >>>> >>>>=== >>>> >>>>> As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much >>>>> junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run >>>>> small >>>>> TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all >>> have >>>>> hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> >>>>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >>>>> >>>>> On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 >Vac >>>>>>> CT >>>>>>> transformer, on the cheap >>>>>> >>>>>>That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >>>>>>current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >>>>>>input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >>>>>>need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >>>>>>in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then a >>>>>>cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >>>>>>voltage. >>>>>> >>>>>>The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >>>>>>acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >>>>>>fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >>>>>>no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >>>>>>fails. >>>>>> >>>>>>This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you don't >>>>>>want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. >>>>>> >>>>>>As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >&g
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
John, I forgot to add, that an H bridge could work for a clock motor, since those are used to drive ac motors in industry every day. You would have a sqauare wave though, unless it was modified. If I recall, that's the way a lot of the AC drives work today, using four sets of switching semiconductors, unless the motor is small enough to be ran off a power chip. In this case, I wonder how an AC drive would act if it ran a clock motor? Set it at 60 Hz, and be done with it? Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 12:55 PM J. Forster wrote: >Certainly, the inverters can run that low, but if so they sing a lot. > >Best, > >-John > >= > >> John, >> >> I didn't mean to say you said all that, just that the new inverters are >> cheap. I wrote that I thought some ran at around 1 kHZ, as I had an old >> one >> that did, and used a toroidal transformer in it. The new ones, as far as I >> am aware, are similar to the new-style switching power supplies, like the >> ones Maxim and a few others show in their app notes. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 12:37 PM J. Forster wrote: >> Chris, >>> >>>No I didn't say the output was 1000 Hz. No way. >>> >>>What I said (a bit amplified) was that the cheapie inverters use a high >>>frequency, think 50 KHzish, DC-DC converter to make about 170 VDC, then >>>use that to feed an "H" bridge, driven with either a square wave or a >>>modified square wave, to make the output. You snmply need to vary that >>>drive frequency to get 50, or 60, or any frequency you want. >>> >>>There is no output transformer. In fact, that is the cleverness of the >>>design... no big, heavy, expensive magnetics. >>> >>>-John >>> >>>=== >>> As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run small TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all >> have hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 Vac >> CT >> transformer, on the cheap > >That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then a >cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >voltage. > >The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >fails. > >This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you don't >want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. > >As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >hard to do. > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California >>> >>> >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
John, Yes, this one whined when it ran. It was under the seat in a pop-up camper I owned. It had a battery hold down in the floor, and the inverter was bolted to the wall behind it. The only way to muffle the whine was to have the seat cushion in place. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 12:55 PM J. Forster wrote: >Certainly, the inverters can run that low, but if so they sing a lot. > >Best, > >-John > >= > >> John, >> >> I didn't mean to say you said all that, just that the new inverters are >> cheap. I wrote that I thought some ran at around 1 kHZ, as I had an old >> one >> that did, and used a toroidal transformer in it. The new ones, as far as I >> am aware, are similar to the new-style switching power supplies, like the >> ones Maxim and a few others show in their app notes. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 12:37 PM J. Forster wrote: >> Chris, >>> >>>No I didn't say the output was 1000 Hz. No way. >>> >>>What I said (a bit amplified) was that the cheapie inverters use a high >>>frequency, think 50 KHzish, DC-DC converter to make about 170 VDC, then >>>use that to feed an "H" bridge, driven with either a square wave or a >>>modified square wave, to make the output. You snmply need to vary that >>>drive frequency to get 50, or 60, or any frequency you want. >>> >>>There is no output transformer. In fact, that is the cleverness of the >>>design... no big, heavy, expensive magnetics. >>> >>>-John >>> >>>=== >>> As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run small TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all >> have hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 Vac >> CT >> transformer, on the cheap > >That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then a >cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >voltage. > >The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >fails. > >This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you don't >want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. > >As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >hard to do. > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California >>> >>> >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
John, I didn't mean to say you said all that, just that the new inverters are cheap. I wrote that I thought some ran at around 1 kHZ, as I had an old one that did, and used a toroidal transformer in it. The new ones, as far as I am aware, are similar to the new-style switching power supplies, like the ones Maxim and a few others show in their app notes. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 12:37 PM J. Forster wrote: >> Chris, > >No I didn't say the output was 1000 Hz. No way. > >What I said (a bit amplified) was that the cheapie inverters use a high >frequency, think 50 KHzish, DC-DC converter to make about 170 VDC, then >use that to feed an "H" bridge, driven with either a square wave or a >modified square wave, to make the output. You snmply need to vary that >drive frequency to get 50, or 60, or any frequency you want. > >There is no output transformer. In fact, that is the cleverness of the >design... no big, heavy, expensive magnetics. > >-John > >=== > >> As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much >> junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run small >> TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all have >> hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 Vac CT transformer, on the cheap >>> >>>That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >>>current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >>>input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >>>need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >>>in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then a >>>cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >>>voltage. >>> >>>The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >>>acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >>>fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >>>no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >>>fails. >>> >>>This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you don't >>>want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. >>> >>>As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >>>hard to do. >>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>Chris Albertson >>>Redondo Beach, California > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] When buying, watch for scammers
John, You're correct, they can't leave a negative now. eBay finally wisened up, and saw that a lot of the feedback was retaliatory towards the buyers, and took away this option. The only two negatives I ever received was over this very same thing. One guy wouldn't abide by the auction, or what the item sold for, and another just plainly didn't ship it, saying he sold it to somebody else, and took him three years to send me a refund. I left a negative for both, and received one in turn. I sold a scope a while back, and I did mess up on the weight, and it ended up costing me about $10 more to ship it, which of course, I at the extra charges. I wasn't about to ask the buyer for more cash, and to me, that would have been wrong. When this happened the other day, needless to say, it left a sour taste in my mouth. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 12:25 PM J. Forster wrote: >I don't think Sellers can leave negative FB any more. They can give >"non-payment strikes". > >-John > >=== > > > >> Strongly suggest that you not only leave negative feedback but also send a >> note to ebay, stating the circumstances. I had the same experience a year >> or so ago, did both those things, and got an email back from ebay stating >> that "they would communicate with the seller." I anticipated he would >> give >> ME negative feedback but he did not. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Will Matney wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I thought I would share this, as it could save you some hard earned >>> cash. >>> >>> I just won a piece of equipment off ebay, and I knew what it weighed, >>> and >>> it's size, when I bought it. It was to be shipped from Colorado to here >>> in >>> Ohio. When the auction was over, I sent in the payment, but the next >>> day, I >>> get an e-mail saying that UPS wanted more to ship it, than they had >>> figured, at $16.00, and that they required $9.95 more. Well, the first >>> thing I did was go to the UPS Stores website, and there, you can put in >>> both city names, and zips, along with the package size, and weight. I >>> did >>> this, and the total came to $16.14, as I first thought, and was what the >>> auction listed it at $16 even. I sent a message back, and stated that >>> no, I >>> would not pay it, and that that was against ebay rules, and if they >>> didn't >>> want to abide by the auction, they should refund my money, and that I >>> would >>> leave appropriate feedback. >>> >>> Two or three days passed by, with no reply from the seller, and just >>> yesterday, I receive the package via the mail, or USPS, which I know it >>> costed less to ship the package with. They may have saved $5 to $6 >>> dollars, >>> but not the $9.99 they wanted, and I still got it as quick as UPS ground >>> estimated, but the point is, it didn't cost the $9.99 more to ship it, >>> and >>> it did not arrive by the requested shipper, with insurance. I didn't >>> check >>> with USPS to see what rate it would be, but that's what the seller >>> pulled. >>> >>> I have only had this happen two or three times out of around 500 >>> purchases >>> from ebay, but you will run into this with some. At any rate, if they >>> request extra money, look into it, and I can assure you, ebay don't >>> allow >>> this. It could possibly be true, that the seller did indeed mess up, but >>> in >>> this case, nope, they just wanted extra cash for what they sold. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Will >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Chris, Yup, that's all I did. Use the line to keep the batteries charging, and when the line goes down, the battery or batteries just keep on supplying the system. Mine wasn't a sine wave though, but a modified square wave, however it worked like a charm. I got the idea from a website, and modified it to my taste, but it really didn't cost much with all the surplus transformers available, and there is a huge number available with high power ratings. I used a bank of NPN switching transistors, and I forget what they were, but they had slightly higher ratings than a 2N3055. There was a driver circuit between them and the chip. I can't remember if Maxim, or another, made the IC, as I would have to try to find my info on the supply, because I sold it about two years after I finished it. One could try to find an older sine wave UPS, and modify it, but it would need to be a 60Hz output supply, because the transformer would be sized incorrectly, with a higher frequency rating, when dropping it down to 60 Hz. As John mentioned earlier, the el-cheapo inverters are pretty much junk, and run as high as 1 kHz, if I recall. They were made to run small TV's, etc, that don't require a fixed line frequency, since they all have hot chassis now that don't use isolation transformers. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 11:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >> The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 Vac CT >> transformer, on the cheap > >That's a good point.So use two of them. One to power a high >current amp that produces a 12V AC signal from a high precision 60Hz >input. Then the other to convert the 12V to 120V. This avoids the >need for a high voltage DC power supply. Likely cuts the total cost >in half at least. So just use use 12V supply to the amp and then a >cheap 12V transformer connected "backwards" to step up to the desired >voltage. > >The second advantage of this design is that you can connect a lead >acid gell cell battery in parallel to the 12V DC supply and if the AC >fails the battery will power the amp for a while. This way there is >no switching so the 60Hz wave remains continuously even if AC mains >fails. > >This is something most UPS don't do but for this application you don't >want the 60Hz sine wave to be broken. > >As long as the load is only a few milliamps of AC this should not be >hard to do. > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] When buying, watch for scammers
All, I thought I would share this, as it could save you some hard earned cash. I just won a piece of equipment off ebay, and I knew what it weighed, and it's size, when I bought it. It was to be shipped from Colorado to here in Ohio. When the auction was over, I sent in the payment, but the next day, I get an e-mail saying that UPS wanted more to ship it, than they had figured, at $16.00, and that they required $9.95 more. Well, the first thing I did was go to the UPS Stores website, and there, you can put in both city names, and zips, along with the package size, and weight. I did this, and the total came to $16.14, as I first thought, and was what the auction listed it at $16 even. I sent a message back, and stated that no, I would not pay it, and that that was against ebay rules, and if they didn't want to abide by the auction, they should refund my money, and that I would leave appropriate feedback. Two or three days passed by, with no reply from the seller, and just yesterday, I receive the package via the mail, or USPS, which I know it costed less to ship the package with. They may have saved $5 to $6 dollars, but not the $9.99 they wanted, and I still got it as quick as UPS ground estimated, but the point is, it didn't cost the $9.99 more to ship it, and it did not arrive by the requested shipper, with insurance. I didn't check with USPS to see what rate it would be, but that's what the seller pulled. I have only had this happen two or three times out of around 500 purchases from ebay, but you will run into this with some. At any rate, if they request extra money, look into it, and I can assure you, ebay don't allow this. It could possibly be true, that the seller did indeed mess up, but in this case, nope, they just wanted extra cash for what they sold. Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Chris, That's close to what I did, but I think the chips output to the switching transistors was a modified squarewave, made to act like a sine wave, where the waveform is stair-stepped. One could use a plain 60Hz crystal controlled oscillator, and start out with push-pull amplifier stages to get to the final switching power you need, the same or similar as building up a push-pull transmitter. The reason for using 12 Vdc, is that you can pick them up, and 24 Vac CT transformer, on the cheap, with quite high power ratings. Any switching types like this do require extra power which is expended in heat, and you would have to calculate those losses for the main DC supply transformer. Motorola had an application note on doing this in their catalogs around 1965-1970. That was back in the time of the large Ger. switching transistors too. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 10:25 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Don Mimlitch wrote: >> I collect clocks an have many clocks with 60Hz Synchronous Motors. >> >> How would I go about Disciplining a 60Hz 120VAC source from an >> Unintteruptable Power Supply (UPS)? > >Most comercial UPS are quite crude. Theu make square wave AC. In >your case, I think the way to go is to build a precision 60 Hz >oscillator . It can be very low power and work at 5 volts. I would >deriv the 60Hz from a 10Mhz reference, either devide it down then >drive a PLL or use a DDS chip.Filer it then usethis precission >60Hz signal to feed something that looks a lot like an audio >amplifier. This kind of design is expensive if you need many watts >but you clocks likely don't need many watts. > >The amplified can run from a high voltage DC source. As (I assume) we >don't care about efficiency you can drive the amp with a 200V DC >linear supply like you'd find in a tube based amp. the feedback loop >of the typical audio amp is replaced be an an AC voltage comparator. >Feed back drive the output to exactly 120V. > >Use a different design if you care about power consumption and waste >heat. The above is a simple "on line" supply. A comerical UPS like >this is more complex and uses a SMPS for the high voltage and runs the >SMPS from a battery that is also being charged from AC mains. These >use a crystal for a freq. reference. You might just buy one and >replace the crystal with a DDS drive from your 10Mhz reference. But >these comercial on-line units are not cheap like home computer backups > > > > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz, How do I discipline 120VAC 60Hz from a UPS
Don, The easiest way would be to convert the line voltage to make a 12 Vdc source, then use an inverter that you can add a xtal control to its oscillator, or even add a GPS disciplined source to drive it. However, that won't help with power outage, unless you would use a UPS, or maybe a generator that will kick in when the line voltage starts to drop. The transformer to use is a simple 24 Vac, center tap secondary, that you then use as the primary, and drive it with 12 volts on either side with the oscillator. You feed the center tap with 12 Vdc, and switch the two outer legs to ground via transistors or FET's. The secondary is what was the 120 Vac primary, and you have to source for the clocks. I built a 60 Hz inverter a few years back, and it didn't really require much. I can't recall the chip I used for the oscillator, but it did work, and it gave me 60 Hz like I wanted. Most cheaper inverters, if I remember, run at a higher frequency than that, which are now sold on the market. They do this to get the transformer size down. While you're at it, you might want to check the motors loaded rpm in those clocks to see how accurate they are. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 9:50 AM Don Mimlitch wrote: >I collect clocks an have many clocks with 60Hz Synchronous Motors. > >How would I go about Disciplining a 60Hz 120VAC source from an >Unintteruptable Power Supply (UPS)? > >This would solve both my problem with power outages and the new problem >of possibly undisciplined power from the power companies (Henry Warren >must be rolling over in his grave!) > >I have no Idea how you would disciple such a low frequency at such a high voltage and >deliver the power required to drive several (or many) Clocks. > >I assume you would start with a commercially available UPS and either a disciplined 1 Second > >or 10Mhz source such as a thunderbolt (also powered off the UPS or the batteries in the UPS). > >Does anyone have an suggestions for circuits which would do this disciplining? > >Thanks >Don >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
Hal, The speed differences below are for a two and four pole motor. Two Pole: 50 Hz: 3,000, 60 Hz: 3,600 Four Pole: 50 Hz: 1,500, 60 Hz:1,800 Those are not loaded speeds, however, 1800 / 1500 = 1.2 I mis-stated that post, it should have been 1.2 times greater than, or less than, the speed, but it's around 17%, I think, (17% of 1800 is 306 RPM). Thanks for catching that. I didn't see the graph, but in the case of 59.95 Hz, it wouldn't faze working motors or transformers enough to harm them, I would think. It would motors for clocks though, over a long time span. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 7:13 PM Hal Murray wrote: >> Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of >> industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed >> to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, >> or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough >> to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz >> transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in >> motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in >> my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to >> vary. > >I think you are missing the decimal point. > >How do you get 1.2% from 50 to 60 Hz? I get 16%. > >The graph had events under 59.95 Hz. That's roughly 0.1%. > http://tinyurl.com/6ytqsx7 > http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 > > > > >-- >These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
John, That's true, but can the secondary voltage stand to drop that much? Let's say we have a 12 volt regulated circuit, and the design engineer used the minimum input voltage to the regulator of 13.4 volts, or 1.4 volts over the regulated value needed (I've seen this done). Dropping the line from say 120 Vac to 100 Vac would drop the secondary DC down to around 11.2 to 11.4 Vdc, well under the minimum supply voltage of 13.4 Vdc, and under the regulated value. When you get into plate transformers, with high winding ratios, the voltage drop gets a good bit different. However, I should have said, one should never run a 60 Hz transformer, or motor, on the same line voltage it was rated for at a lower 50 Hz. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 7:03 PM J. Forster wrote: >I'd severly doubt they'd allow anything like 10%. > >Also remember that the peak flux, that determins saturation, is the >integral of I dT, so you can run a 60 Hz transformer at 50 Hz if you >reduce the input to 100 VAC instead of 120 VAC. > >-John > >=== > > >> We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where >> Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't >> want to live there in the winter. >> >> Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of >> industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed >> to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any >> motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference >> is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use >> a >> 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference >> in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing >> it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to >> allow >> it to vary. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: >> >>>It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, >>>so setting clocks is a way of life. >>> >>>PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and >>>third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls >>>nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, >>>and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta >>>Vista (now Cupertino), etc. >>> >>> >>>On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: >>>> I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't >> run >>>> no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered >>>> clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal >>>> timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have >>>> motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them >>>> obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks >> replacement >>>> clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I >> said, >>>> I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Will >>>> >>>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >>>> >>>> On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: >>>> >>>>> "change you can count on" >>>>> Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks >>>>>> - >>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Time Error Correction Elimination >>>>>> - >>>>>> http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 >>>>>> >>>>>> NERC Report - June 14 >>>>>> - >>>>>> http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ___ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>&g
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
We have AEP here, but it's like you said, go out in the country where Buckeye Rual Elect. is, and you have outages all the time, and you don't want to live there in the winter. Clocks is not what I'm concerned over as much as certain pieces of industrial equipment that must rotate at a certain speed, or are supposed to. Also, if they are going to allow the frequency to get slower, any motor, or transformer, needs more iron in it, and just a 10 Hz difference is enough to amount to a significant increase in iron. One can easily use a 50 Hz transformer on 60 Hz, but not a 60 Hz on 50 Hz. The speed difference in motors from 50 Hz to 60 Hz would be around 1.2%, just roughly guessing it in my head, at 1800 RPM, and we don't know how much they intend to allow it to vary. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 6:33 PM gary wrote: >It all depends where you live. I know people that get an outage a week, >so setting clocks is a way of life. > >PGE, bless their corporate hearts, is run both like a Swiss clock and >third world nation power. If you have a fair amount of industry or malls >nearby (i.e. customers), your power is great. Live at the edge of town, >and things are not so good, even in Silicon Valley. Monte Sereno, Monta >Vista (now Cupertino), etc. > > >On 6/24/2011 6:07 PM, Will Matney wrote: >> I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run >> no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered >> clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal >> timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have >> motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them >> obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement >> clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, >> I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: >> >>> "change you can count on" >>> Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks >>>> - >>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks >>>> >>>> >>>> Time Error Correction Elimination >>>> - >>>> http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 >>>> >>>> NERC Report - June 14 >>>> - >>>> http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] No more 60Hz! TEC Elimination
I predict, with all of my oracle abilities, snort, that the test won't run no time until there's a law suit. Almost everyone uses battery powered clocks nowdays, on the wall, and most alarms are digital with xtal timebases. However, there are still those old foggies who still have motorized clocks depending on 60Hz to do their duty. If this makes them obsolete, I wonder if the government is prepared to buy folks replacement clocks, like they provided the digital receivers for our TV's? Like I said, I can see a courtroom battle as I write this. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:50 PM paul swed wrote: >"change you can count on" >Thanks. All those silly alarm clocks by the bed. > >On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Bob Kupiec wrote: > >> >> AP: Power grid change may disrupt clocks >> - >> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks >> >> >> Time Error Correction Elimination >> - >> http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 >> >> NERC Report - June 14 >> - >> http://www.nerc.com/files/NERC_TEC_Field_Trial_Webinar_061411.pdf >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Replacing electrolytics - any disadvantages of hightemp ones?
Bill, Yes, this is the 845A, not the AB I have. Well, I first thought that about the resistor, but sure enough, the color bands are brown, green, and brown, or 150 ohms, as on the schematic. I wonder if the resistor was mis-painted at the factory with the wrong color bands? I just couldn't see a carbon comp resistor moving from that value to almost a short, but this one sure shows it, and is why, I figure, it put off enough heat to leave a bright spot on the board above it. The zener would have to sink a bunch more current over it too, and on the side of the 400 uF cap beside it, was a slight white discolored area that was given by the zener being warm. Unhooking the zener showed it still good, and even though the 400 uF caps end has a small bulge, it doesn't show a short. I didn't disconnect the resistor from the circuit while reading it, as one side goes to the power switch, and takes it out of circuit from the transformer. Another thing I noticed was the GA2817 switching transistors show conduction one way across the collector and emitter on both, but it isn't a short. I figure they have built in snubber diodes in them, but I can't cross the number to anything, as I think they were a custom or OEM for Fluke from TI. I unplugged them so I could test the filter cap and bridge rectifiers correctly. Does anyone know anything about these transistors? Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 2:44 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >Hi Will, > >Is it possible that someone replaced the original resistor with the wrong one ? >I am suggesting that they were either color blind or were not paying attention to >what they were doing. > >You must be talking about the version that does not have the battery option. You >will notice that the battery version does not have a zener diode. This is >because the battery is slightly trickle charged via the 150 Ohm resistor and >loads the transformer output enough that the voltage to the switching circuit >never gets high enough to be a problem (assuming no failures). > >With the battery load missing in the AC only model, there is a need to help limit >the voltage out of the bridge rectifier. The transformer and bridge output are >such that the voltage is barely above the zener value. Very little current flows >through the zener. The transformer winding resistance also comes into play as it >can barely deliver the required current and just maintain the needed voltage. In >other words the winding resistance is such, along with the switching circuit >load, as to limit the amount of current the zener sees. > >BillWB6BNQ > > >Will Matney wrote: > >> All, >> >> Speaking of replacing electrolytic capacitors, which I am now doing on a >> Fluke 845A, I found a carbon comp resistor way out of spec. It is a 150 >> ohm, 1/4 watt current limiter, for a 10 Vdc zener. I noticed that it had >> looked to have been hot (or gave off excessive heat), and had made a shiny >> place on the PC board above it, though the resistor doesn't show any burnt >> color. When I measured it, it was reading around 1 to 2 ohms. The zener was >> still good, luckily, as was the bridge rectifiers, and filter cap (though >> bulged), and this is the supply voltage for the switching transistors, >> which run the chopper transformer. >> >> My question is, have any of you seen a 150 ohm carbon comp resistor change >> that much in value? I wouldn't think they could, but evidently, this one >> did, and if so, I wonder about the others in the meter. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/24/2011 at 11:22 AM Brooke Clarke wrote: >> >> >Hi Chad: >> > >> >Google found it: >> >http://techdoc.kvindesland.no/radio/passivecomp/20061223155312558.pdf >> >But it's not that informative. >> > >> >The best info I've seen on measuring components is the HP (Agilent) >> >Impedance Handbook. >> >http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5950-3000.pdf >> > >> >I measured dozens of caps using a number of different methods to see how >> >well the combined ESR and Capacitance meter I sell works. >> >http://www.prc68.com/I/ESRmicro.shtml >> >http://www.prc68.com/I/Capacitors.shtml >> > >> >Does anyone know of a modern cap leakage tester? >> > >> >Have Fun, >> > >> >Brooke Clarke >> >http://www.PRC68.com >> > >> > >> >GMail / AnalogAficionado wrote: >> >> Cyril Bateman called Understanding Capacitors >> > >> >___ >&
Re: [time-nuts] Replacing electrolytics - any disadvantages of high temp ones?
If I recall, didn't B&K make a capacitor analyzer that did ESR measurements too? I think it was a hybrid, part solid-state, and part tube, but folks swore by them. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 2:34 PM Pete Lancashire wrote: >Sencore 102 or 103's. If your lucky you can find one for less < $200. > >If you don't mind the age. At the bottom of the pile are ones like the >Eico 950-B and many that are close. The 950-B is about the best >in the lower shelf. Stick with the B, newer if anything and remember >Eico's also came as a kit. If you not in a rush, wait till you find a > >Sprague Tel-Ohmike's The 5 and 6's being the last of the series >and the only ones to really consider. Just my call, others like some of the >older ones. Depending on condtion and phase of the moon you can get >a TO-6A for around $50, most go for about $100. > >Next shelf up I would say the Clough-Brengle 712 and its military cousin >the ZM-11/U. I find it harder to use only in that everything is jammed so >close. And my 712 died a couple years ago and havn't got around to >looking inside. Price $50 to $100 > >Non of these prices reflect Ham-fests, Aunt Milli's thrift store etc. > >All the above will or should be gone over, the usual stuff caps, resistors, >etc. > >The one I use the most is the Tel-Ohmike 6A. Some say the 5 is better >and the 6's did dropped the transformer ration feature, but I only the thing >i use it for is caps. > >Moving into the modern era, the Sencore's 75, 102 and 103. > >Again at the top Sencore 102 and 103's, but you really have to be lucky >to get one under $100 or so. I've not been so lucky. > >On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: >> Hi Chad: >> >> Google found it: >> http://techdoc.kvindesland.no/radio/passivecomp/20061223155312558.pdf >> But it's not that informative. >> >> The best info I've seen on measuring components is the HP (Agilent) >> Impedance Handbook. >> http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5950-3000.pdf >> >> I measured dozens of caps using a number of different methods to see how >> well the combined ESR and Capacitance meter I sell works. >> http://www.prc68.com/I/ESRmicro.shtml >> http://www.prc68.com/I/Capacitors.shtml >> >> Does anyone know of a modern cap leakage tester? >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.PRC68.com >> >> >> GMail / AnalogAficionado wrote: >>> >>> Cyril Bateman called Understanding Capacitors >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hp 5328a for sale
Norm, I am interested in buying one, so please contact me about one at my e-mail below, Thanks, Will Matney xfor...@citynet.net *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 8:55 PM normn3...@stny.rr.com wrote: >Hi all, >I have 4 5328a's all have ch c to 512 MHz and the extended triggering along with gpib. >25 plus shipping from 18840 >Norm n3ykf > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Replacing electrolytics - any disadvantages of high temp ones?
All, Speaking of replacing electrolytic capacitors, which I am now doing on a Fluke 845A, I found a carbon comp resistor way out of spec. It is a 150 ohm, 1/4 watt current limiter, for a 10 Vdc zener. I noticed that it had looked to have been hot (or gave off excessive heat), and had made a shiny place on the PC board above it, though the resistor doesn't show any burnt color. When I measured it, it was reading around 1 to 2 ohms. The zener was still good, luckily, as was the bridge rectifiers, and filter cap (though bulged), and this is the supply voltage for the switching transistors, which run the chopper transformer. My question is, have any of you seen a 150 ohm carbon comp resistor change that much in value? I wouldn't think they could, but evidently, this one did, and if so, I wonder about the others in the meter. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/24/2011 at 11:22 AM Brooke Clarke wrote: >Hi Chad: > >Google found it: >http://techdoc.kvindesland.no/radio/passivecomp/20061223155312558.pdf >But it's not that informative. > >The best info I've seen on measuring components is the HP (Agilent) >Impedance Handbook. >http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5950-3000.pdf > >I measured dozens of caps using a number of different methods to see how >well the combined ESR and Capacitance meter I sell works. >http://www.prc68.com/I/ESRmicro.shtml >http://www.prc68.com/I/Capacitors.shtml > >Does anyone know of a modern cap leakage tester? > >Have Fun, > >Brooke Clarke >http://www.PRC68.com > > >GMail / AnalogAficionado wrote: >> Cyril Bateman called Understanding Capacitors > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supply recommendations
Thanks Hal, and Henry, I was wondering about how they acted. I have really nver studied them that much for this type of application. Of course, I have some old moon filters laying around, that are a very low shade, and I could cut up. That could work without having to play with the LED's. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 8:19 PM ehydra wrote: >There get slower with falling current. > >- Henry > > >-- >ehydra.dyndns.info > > > >Hal Murray schrieb: >>> I was thinking about trying an orange or yellow LED here, and dimming the >>> LED with the series resistor, trying to make it as dim as the neon bulb, but >>> I don't know if a LED can be dimmed down that low. >> >> LEDs work fine at low output levels. At low current, the light output is >> linear with current. It falls off at high current and/or high temperature. >> >> >> > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Watch out for a scam by Alex Barski. VE3XAX
I think everyone will find that the guys call sign account has been hacked, or compromised somehow. As the one posted knew the real ham personally, I'd say this is what has happened. He should let him know about this, so he can look into it, as not only was there the Kenwood in question, but also an antenna to somebody else. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 7:55 AM Chris Albertson wrote: >Not accepting Pay Pal and using Western Union for money transfer is a >sure sign of a scam. I'd say 100% certain. > >On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 3:42 AM, David Kirkby wrote: >> I advertised on eHam.net and qrz.com that I was looking for a Kenwood >> AT-230 ATU. I got a reply from someone claiming to be Alex Barski from >> Canada with the callsign VE3XAX who has an email address of >> ve3...@blumail.org. I've no idea if his real name is that, or if he >> holds that callsign, but I'm suspicious. > > >-- > >Chris Albertson >Redondo Beach, California > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supply recommendations
Paul, No, not the direct light emitted from the LED, but the extra current the cell passed was probably over their limit. I thought of placing the LED's vertical to the Lucite rods, instead of horizontal, or head-on, to decrease the intensity. From the side, a LED, it's much dimmer. The NE-3 bulbs are placed this way, but that's about the only way to get the most intensity from them. Another thought would be to place a filter between the LED's and the rods to dim them down. What I was going to do was measure the voltage across the CDS cells, with the neon bulbs running, and try to get a LED to create the same voltage drop, or same amount of current through the cell. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 2:25 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <201106151021530546.2070a...@smtp.citynet.net>, "Will Matney" writes >: > >>My guess is that the LED's brightness helped kill the CDS cells. > >That is not possible by direct effect, light does not hurt CDS cells. > >It is far more likely that more intense light than designed has decreased >the CDS' resistance causing higher current than was good for them. > > >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 >p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 >FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe >Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supply recommendations
John, They used Lucite rods, I shouldn't have said tubes. The neon bulbs are about at the center of the PC board, and the CDS cells are at the edge, so to get the light to them, they used the rods. I think they did the same thing on the 845AB too, but I'm not looking at the manual right now to see for sure, as I'm not sure the 844 and 845 use the same PC board, just the same circuitry. The 844 was sold to other manufacturers, and it came in a plain aluminum box, with the switch shaft sticking out the front. The meter and pots were shipped seperate to be mounted in the customers equipment. HP did the same with the 419, and tacked another letter on the model number, as well as Keithly, which I know uses the same PC board in both versions. Keithly didn't use this type of chopper though (using LED's or lamps). I am going to locate the post on the HP forum and read about it. My guess is that the LED's brightness helped kill the CDS cells. I was thinking about trying an orange or yellow LED here, and dimming the LED with the series resistor, trying to make it as dim as the neon bulb, but I don't know if a LED can be dimmed down that low. On the old HP 412 VTVM, the incandescent bulbs in it were not very bright, and they were using CDS cells with them. Another instance of this, if I recall, was that Tektronix used a chopper like this in one of their older scope calibrators. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 6:51 AM J. Forster wrote: >> John, >> >> I will check it out, and may do some experiments myself on these. Also, I >> will take a look at the photo-FET's, as I had forgotten about those. >> >> What has me wondering is how neon bulbs act in the circuit, their low >> brightness, and their drop out times, as I think the on voltage is around >> 90 volts or so, > >More like 70. They need a higher voltage to turn on (strike). > >> but the square wave going to them is around 100-115 volts >> if I recall. I thought about using a simple 10:1 resistive divider, then >> using a series resistor from that junction going to the LED, the same as >> for a 10-15 volt supply. > >Neons run at very low currents. > >> The neon bulbs light goes through two Lucite tubes >> to the CDS cells, and it couldn't be too bright by the time it reached >> them. > >Tubes or rods (as a light guide)? > >> I also thought about using a new form of chopper, as Paul mentions, but >> making it fit and work could get complicated. ESI quit using the HP 419 in >> the last models of their 801 DC supply and detector-null meter, and >> started >> using a Keithly 155. I either figured it was over this very thing, or HP >> dropped the 419 from its line. An engineer at Vishay told me that they >> quit >> using the Fluke over this neon problem, and went to the Keithly in the >> last >> versions of this bridge. > >OK. > >> I'm going to be using the bridge not only as it was intended, but to do >> other null measurements, as I added a circuit to use the meter circuit >> seperatly from the bridge. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will > >Good luck. BTW, the HP thread referred to degradation of the CdS cells. >You should read it. It is possible to makle a very high Z chopper with >CdS. I'm not so sure about other ways. > >-John > > > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Watch out for a scam by Alex Barski. VE3XAX
David, I found this link with a quick search: http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?300792-Fake-VE3XAX-Scam-from-wanted-add Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 11:42 AM David Kirkby wrote: >I advertised on eHam.net and qrz.com that I was looking for a Kenwood >AT-230 ATU. I got a reply from someone claiming to be Alex Barski from >Canada with the callsign VE3XAX who has an email address of >ve3...@blumail.org. I've no idea if his real name is that, or if he >holds that callsign, but I'm suspicious. > >This person offered me the ATU for $220 shipped to my house, but there >were a number of things that make me suspicious this is a scam. > >1) When I checked on QRZ.COM, the address and name did not agree with >the callsign. The only similarity was they were in Canada. Today when >I checked, the information agreed.But yesterday they were definitely >different. > >2) When I offered to pay via Paypal, I received this: > >"Thanks for the response to my email David but i am sorry i don't use >paypal or bank transfer as means of payment due to the instruction >giving to me by my bank and lawyer but i will entertain any other safe >and reliable mode of payment. Also what is your full shipping >information and we can discuss about the payment over the phone, give >me your number and i will give you a call to talk." > >This immediately made me "smell a rat", but I decided to play along >and gave him my mobile phone number. > >3) Today he rings me, withholding the number, and says Western Union >would be a safe method of payment. > >I'm rather sorry I did not play him along a lot longer, but I told him >the deal was off. I might email him and say I had second thoughts, and >will string him along for a bit of fun. But basically be aware. > >Today I looked on qrz.com and found others have basically formed the >same conclusion of this person > >http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?300792-Fake-VE3XAX-Scam-from-wanted-ad d > >The strange thing is, the other person reporting the scam also played >along with it. Sometimes these scams can be fun! I think I'll play >along a bit more too. > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supply recommendations
Bruce, Correct, and by adding the series resistor for higher impedance, the voltage regulation at the zener value is raised from 10 volts to some value higher. I actually remember a variable bias control to a tube using a similar circuit, except the fixed resistor was a pot. He shows using this on a shunt regulator also on the following page. How much unstability this causes at the value given is unknown without actually building the circuit and testing it, but one shouldn't use a series resistor with a zener this way. I remember Rich Measures and myself speaking of this a few years back. One thing that's not mentioned in the article is that certain resistors can cause noise by themselves. Good articles on this are in some power supply and voltage reference App Notes from both Linear Tech., and National. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 6:59 PM Bruce Griffiths wrote: >Will Matney wrote: >> As far as the power supply is concerned, I think I am going to go with >> Ni-Cad batteries, and regulate the voltages. I think what they had was >> nothing more than four step voltages from the battery supply, going from 3, >> 6 (7), 12, and 24 Vdc, or X2 of the other. From what I saw in the article >> earlier, an easy zener with emotter follower regulator should do the trick >> by the comparison with batteries. They used some resistance in series with >> the zener to reduce noise, but it did decrease the stability somewhat. I >> have seen this used in some old bias regulation circuits for tubes years >> ago. >> >> >A somewhat misguided idea, they really should have used an RC low pass >filter between the zener and the output transistor base. >The filtering effect is the same but without significantly decreased >stability over that of an unfiltered zener.. >> As far as the noise, I also wondered about this, as ESI used a current >> limited DC power source to do the same thing, and it was ran off the AC >> line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >Bruce > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Watch out for a scam by Alex Barski. VE3XAX
David, By the broken English they used in the e-mail, it read like e-mails I've received from Asia, particully Hong Kong parts suppliers. I would say they will accept the payment, and forward it on to somebody else. Check the guys call sign again today, and then a few days later to see if the name on it doesn't change again. This is not saying the part suppliers there are scammers, as I have purchased from several with great results, however a lot of scammers come from there, and hackers. Best, Will Matney *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/15/2011 at 11:42 AM David Kirkby wrote: >I advertised on eHam.net and qrz.com that I was looking for a Kenwood >AT-230 ATU. I got a reply from someone claiming to be Alex Barski from >Canada with the callsign VE3XAX who has an email address of >ve3...@blumail.org. I've no idea if his real name is that, or if he >holds that callsign, but I'm suspicious. > >This person offered me the ATU for $220 shipped to my house, but there >were a number of things that make me suspicious this is a scam. > >1) When I checked on QRZ.COM, the address and name did not agree with >the callsign. The only similarity was they were in Canada. Today when >I checked, the information agreed.But yesterday they were definitely >different. > >2) When I offered to pay via Paypal, I received this: > >"Thanks for the response to my email David but i am sorry i don't use >paypal or bank transfer as means of payment due to the instruction >giving to me by my bank and lawyer but i will entertain any other safe >and reliable mode of payment. Also what is your full shipping >information and we can discuss about the payment over the phone, give >me your number and i will give you a call to talk." > >This immediately made me "smell a rat", but I decided to play along >and gave him my mobile phone number. > >3) Today he rings me, withholding the number, and says Western Union >would be a safe method of payment. > >I'm rather sorry I did not play him along a lot longer, but I told him >the deal was off. I might email him and say I had second thoughts, and >will string him along for a bit of fun. But basically be aware. > >Today I looked on qrz.com and found others have basically formed the >same conclusion of this person > >http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?300792-Fake-VE3XAX-Scam-from-wanted-ad d > >The strange thing is, the other person reporting the scam also played >along with it. Sometimes these scams can be fun! I think I'll play >along a bit more too. > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
