Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Marco maybe you should run a web site with daily measurements and shame 
them into doing it properly ( your "traceable to NIST"  should raise some 
hackles !!) I took me four months to get a short term wander on 198kHz 
looked at a few years ago. I was cured when the synth finally failed 
completely ! The private contractor did not have at the time any way of 
measuring it off-air, despite taking the NPL money for running it. :-))


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Marco IK1ODO -2" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?




For what I know they have an experimental license by the Telecom 
authority, and operate from Tuscany near Viareggio since two or three 
years. The license has been given on the basis that there are no more HF 
time and frequency signals operating in Europe.
When I knew about it I offered to donate a rubidium standard, to have it 
at least on the right frequency.
I had no answers... they continue to radiate a worthless off-frequency 
signal (IMHO). May be it is a case of "beaconitis" :-) (a disease that 
mandates to activate beacons).
On a similar base, I know of an attempt to restore and put in operation 
the old transmitter of IBF (5 MHz, "Istituto Nazionale di Elettrotecnica", 
now INRIM, the national standard keepers). That was a custom built 5 kW 
(carrier) Continental broadcasting TX. It has been found in the 
underground storage of INRIM, stripped of power and modulation 
transformers, and should be rebuilt to operate at only 1 kW carrier on the 
original 5 MHz frequency (Rb or GPS controlled!). The plans are to operate 
it from the original place on the hills near Torino, by remote control, as 
a museum and educative item. I offered my workshop to work on it, I hope 
that the project may go on to again hear "IBF, IBF, IBF, standard time and 
frequency signals from the National Electrotechnical Institute, Turin, 
Italy" from minutes 45 to 60 on 5 MHz ;-)


Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF


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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Marco IK1ODO -2]

For what I know they have an experimental license by the Telecom 
authority, and operate from Tuscany near Viareggio since two or three 
years. The license has been given on the basis that there are no more 
HF time and frequency signals operating in Europe.
When I knew about it I offered to donate a rubidium standard, to have 
it at least on the right frequency.
I had no answers... they continue to radiate a worthless 
off-frequency signal (IMHO). May be it is a case of "beaconitis" :-) 
(a disease that mandates to activate beacons).
On a similar base, I know of an attempt to restore and put in 
operation the old transmitter of IBF (5 MHz, "Istituto Nazionale di 
Elettrotecnica", now INRIM, the national standard keepers). That was 
a custom built 5 kW (carrier) Continental broadcasting TX. It has 
been found in the underground storage of INRIM, stripped of power and 
modulation transformers, and should be rebuilt to operate at only 1 
kW carrier on the original 5 MHz frequency (Rb or GPS controlled!). 
The plans are to operate it from the original place on the hills near 
Torino, by remote control, as a museum and educative item. I offered 
my workshop to work on it, I hope that the project may go on to again 
hear "IBF, IBF, IBF, standard time and frequency signals from the 
National Electrotechnical Institute, Turin, Italy" from minutes 45 to 
60 on 5 MHz ;-)


Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF


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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[EB4APL]

Hi Iain
It is operating from mid 2012 at least, I started a thread about it on 
06/29/2012  when I noticed it and several members responded with their 
opinions.
It seems to be more a "pirate station" than an "experimental station", I 
have serious doubts that they may have a license for it.
For starting their announced web page www.italcable.it redirects to 
www.associazioneitalcable.it (Italcable was a historic 
telecommunications company now merged into Telecom Italia).
The site has just a page without any explanation about the association 
and his goals and only announces their "Open Source Sensors" and the 
Time Signals stations on 10 MHz and 15 MHz both defined as "amateur and 
experimental station". They also include an email address, a postal 
address and under "License" they say "Authorized by the Ministry of 
Economic Development".  I suppose that is the license for operating the 
association, not the radio stations.
The 10 MHz station frequency is almost 4 Hz down since the beginning, 
the 15 MHz transmission, new for me, is much more on frequency, less 
than 1 Hz high.
The pips are at 1110 Hz above the carrier, I did not made any effort for 
reading the code, even it could be fake, neither how good is its time .
And their use of music for filling the idle time severely interferes 
with legitimate time signals in these frequencies.

Also, according to some local hams, the stated transmission site is faked.

Best regards,
Ignacio EB4APL


On 28/04/2013 14:43, Iain Young wrote:


Hi Folks,

A friend of mine sent me a You Tube recording of an unidentified Time
Station on 10MHz, possibly from Italy or Brazil. Further work seems to
suggest it is indeed an experimental time station from Italy.

Below is a (modified for context) version of the email I sent him:

--BEGIN INCLUDE MESSAGE---

At first look, I tend to agree with others that it's a new
experimental Italian Time Signal. It is also shown on this
You Tube link:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQyKh694RU

Video claims to be: Experimental Time Signal from the italian private
socitey Italcable transmitting at 1KHz

Three observations from this recording:

a) The "pips" are about ~1k up from the main carrier on 10MHz.
Probably a little higher, maybe 1.1k

b) Right at the beginning, there is a burst of digital comms, that
to my ear sounded similar to 300 baud packet. Checking the Frequency
vs Amplitude display in the bottom left again, it appears that that
burst is up at ~2k+ from the 10MHz centre

Now...a PK232 running 300 baud uses the following frequencies:

2110 Mark, and 2310 space tones as a PK-232, with the center of the
tones being 2210 Hz, and going fullscreen on the video suggests that
the spikes during that burst are smack where we would see them for
300 baud packet when using a PK-232.

(With the resolution of the youtube video and the screen, thats as
accurate as I can get)

c) The burst does appear to repeat later in the recording, which
suggests it may be part of the time code, rather than some
Italian APRS station being a tad off frequency


I would suggest that the next step would be to put a 300 baud
PK232 MODEM on 10 MHz, and record anything that gets decoded.

If its ASCII (highly unlikely to be KISS Frames unless it is someone
way off frequency, and c) above would seem to suggest that's less
likely, then it may well be the time of day.

In that case, in order to use it, we need to work out the reference
point. There seems to be six pips 1 second apart, a gap of a two
seconds, followed by a final seventh pip.

While different to Radio 4's longer final pip, this is similar
to DCF where the final second of the minute is not modulated (MSF
does something similar with a 500mS "carrier off" at the beginning
of the minute.

My guess is the seventh pip identifies the start of the minute,
with the 6 pips beforehand being used for receivers to lock on,
and identify the 2 second gap, with the 300 baud packet being
used to carry the time information itself for the next minute.

Now, do you have the ability to listen on 10MHz with a PK232
tones sound MODEM ? :)

---END INCLUDE MESSAGE---

I am hoping to get a recording or two of it (I don't have HF
RF capability right now, but do have replay and 300 baud decode
capability), to see if it really is 300 baud packet, but have any
(Probably European) time-nuts hear this signal ?

Anyone have any details on the time code ? I'm going to hope it
might be possible to decode the time from the packet burst, but
if anyone has any prior knowledge, then a head start is never a
bad thing when trying to decode these things :)

(BTW, the station seems to play music most of the minute, which
quietens during the packet burst and pips)


All the Best

Iain


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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Azelio,

On 04/28/2013 04:26 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

Actually, using google earth, at the ITACABLE's address there seems to be a
private house. I'll try to mail the  i...@associazioneitalcable.it to get
more info. The street address given is outside of the locator, JN53DV, so
the transmitter is more north. I wasn't able to localize the antenna just
looking at the JN53DV square using google earth.


At 10 MHz, the antenna would not have to be very large to be effective, 
so a google maps might not be the best approach, but street view might 
find it.


The DX community had a little more info, but not enough to satisfy my 
curiosity.


Cheers,
Magnus



On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Magnus Danielson<
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>  wrote:


On 04/28/2013 03:35 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:


That audio signal was broadcast in the nineties by our state radio and TV
provider RAI. The signal was from the IEN now INRIM (http://www.inrim.it)
and directed to the RAI facilities. Nowadays it can be heard on the medium
wave RAI transmissions or by connecting to this italian site "
http://www.dimenticatoio.it/**index.php?title=Segnale_**Orario_Rai"
where the
italian word "dimenticatoio" means "place for the forgotten things".
The signal details can be found at the link posted by Graham.
Useful terms:
preavviso cambio ora solare/estiva   daylight savings about to
start
preavviso secondo intercalare  leapsecond notice



I noticed that there is also a broadcast at 15 MHz from what appears to be
the same location.

It would be interesting to get more specifics for the location and power
of the broadcast as well as time clocks behind it.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Azelio Boriani]

Actually, using google earth, at the ITACABLE's address there seems to be a
private house. I'll try to mail the  i...@associazioneitalcable.it to get
more info. The street address given is outside of the locator, JN53DV, so
the transmitter is more north. I wasn't able to localize the antenna just
looking at the JN53DV square using google earth.


On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> On 04/28/2013 03:35 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:
>
>> That audio signal was broadcast in the nineties by our state radio and TV
>> provider RAI. The signal was from the IEN now INRIM (http://www.inrim.it)
>> and directed to the RAI facilities. Nowadays it can be heard on the medium
>> wave RAI transmissions or by connecting to this italian site "
>> http://www.dimenticatoio.it/**index.php?title=Segnale_**Orario_Rai"
>> where the
>> italian word "dimenticatoio" means "place for the forgotten things".
>> The signal details can be found at the link posted by Graham.
>> Useful terms:
>> preavviso cambio ora solare/estiva   daylight savings about to
>> start
>> preavviso secondo intercalare  leapsecond notice
>>
>
> I noticed that there is also a broadcast at 15 MHz from what appears to be
> the same location.
>
> It would be interesting to get more specifics for the location and power
> of the broadcast as well as time clocks behind it.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Magnus Danielson]

On 04/28/2013 03:35 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

That audio signal was broadcast in the nineties by our state radio and TV
provider RAI. The signal was from the IEN now INRIM (http://www.inrim.it)
and directed to the RAI facilities. Nowadays it can be heard on the medium
wave RAI transmissions or by connecting to this italian site "
http://www.dimenticatoio.it/index.php?title=Segnale_Orario_Rai"; where the
italian word "dimenticatoio" means "place for the forgotten things".
The signal details can be found at the link posted by Graham.
Useful terms:
preavviso cambio ora solare/estiva   daylight savings about to start
preavviso secondo intercalare  leapsecond notice


I noticed that there is also a broadcast at 15 MHz from what appears to 
be the same location.


It would be interesting to get more specifics for the location and power 
of the broadcast as well as time clocks behind it.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Azelio Boriani]

That audio signal was broadcast in the nineties by our state radio and TV
provider RAI. The signal was from the IEN now INRIM (http://www.inrim.it)
and directed to the RAI facilities. Nowadays it can be heard on the medium
wave RAI transmissions or by connecting to this italian site "
http://www.dimenticatoio.it/index.php?title=Segnale_Orario_Rai"; where the
italian word "dimenticatoio" means "place for the forgotten things".
The signal details can be found at the link posted by Graham.
Useful terms:
preavviso cambio ora solare/estiva   daylight savings about to start
preavviso secondo intercalare  leapsecond notice


On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Graham  wrote:

>
> I hear this Italian time station quite often here in Ottawa Canada. At
> those times it is almost as strong as WWV.
>
> http://www.**associazioneitalcable.it/ 
> has some info in Italian
>
>
> Some details of the time signal can be found here:
>
> http://www.inrim.it/res/tf/**immagini/src.jpg
>
> /and, this is a good email address for the operator:
> i...@associazioneitalcable.it
>
> They also transmits on 15000 Khz as well
>
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> /
>
> On 13-04-28 12:43 PM, Iain Young wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> A friend of mine sent me a You Tube recording of an unidentified Time
>> Station on 10MHz, possibly from Italy or Brazil. Further work seems to
>> suggest it is indeed an experimental time station from Italy.
>>
>> Below is a (modified for context) version of the email I sent him:
>>
>> --BEGIN INCLUDE MESSAGE---
>>
>> At first look, I tend to agree with others that it's a new
>> experimental Italian Time Signal. It is also shown on this
>> You Tube link:
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=VSQyKh694RU
>>
>> Video claims to be: Experimental Time Signal from the italian private
>> socitey Italcable transmitting at 1KHz
>>
>> Three observations from this recording:
>>
>> a) The "pips" are about ~1k up from the main carrier on 10MHz.
>> Probably a little higher, maybe 1.1k
>>
>> b) Right at the beginning, there is a burst of digital comms, that
>> to my ear sounded similar to 300 baud packet. Checking the Frequency
>> vs Amplitude display in the bottom left again, it appears that that
>> burst is up at ~2k+ from the 10MHz centre
>>
>> Now...a PK232 running 300 baud uses the following frequencies:
>>
>> 2110 Mark, and 2310 space tones as a PK-232, with the center of the
>> tones being 2210 Hz, and going fullscreen on the video suggests that
>> the spikes during that burst are smack where we would see them for
>> 300 baud packet when using a PK-232.
>>
>> (With the resolution of the youtube video and the screen, thats as
>> accurate as I can get)
>>
>> c) The burst does appear to repeat later in the recording, which
>> suggests it may be part of the time code, rather than some
>> Italian APRS station being a tad off frequency
>>
>>
>> I would suggest that the next step would be to put a 300 baud
>> PK232 MODEM on 10 MHz, and record anything that gets decoded.
>>
>> If its ASCII (highly unlikely to be KISS Frames unless it is someone
>> way off frequency, and c) above would seem to suggest that's less
>> likely, then it may well be the time of day.
>>
>> In that case, in order to use it, we need to work out the reference
>> point. There seems to be six pips 1 second apart, a gap of a two
>> seconds, followed by a final seventh pip.
>>
>> While different to Radio 4's longer final pip, this is similar
>> to DCF where the final second of the minute is not modulated (MSF
>> does something similar with a 500mS "carrier off" at the beginning
>> of the minute.
>>
>> My guess is the seventh pip identifies the start of the minute,
>> with the 6 pips beforehand being used for receivers to lock on,
>> and identify the 2 second gap, with the 300 baud packet being
>> used to carry the time information itself for the next minute.
>>
>> Now, do you have the ability to listen on 10MHz with a PK232
>> tones sound MODEM ? :)
>>
>> ---END INCLUDE MESSAGE---
>>
>> I am hoping to get a recording or two of it (I don't have HF
>> RF capability right now, but do have replay and 300 baud decode
>> capability), to see if it really is 300 baud packet, but have any
>> (Probably European) time-nuts hear this signal ?
>>
>> Anyone have any details on the time code ? I'm going to hope it
>> might be possible to decode the time from the packet burst, but
>> if anyone has any prior knowledge, then a head start is never a
>> bad thing when trying to decode these things :)
>>
>> (BTW, the station seems to play music most of the minute, which
>> quietens during the packet burst and pips)
>>
>>
>> All the Best
>>
>> Iain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Graham]

I hear this Italian time station quite often here in Ottawa Canada. At 
those times it is almost as strong as WWV.


http://www.associazioneitalcable.it/  has some info in Italian


Some details of the time signal can be found here:

http://www.inrim.it/res/tf/immagini/src.jpg

/and, this is a good email address for the operator: 
i...@associazioneitalcable.it


They also transmits on 15000 Khz as well

cheers, Graham ve3gtc
/
On 13-04-28 12:43 PM, Iain Young wrote:


Hi Folks,

A friend of mine sent me a You Tube recording of an unidentified Time
Station on 10MHz, possibly from Italy or Brazil. Further work seems to
suggest it is indeed an experimental time station from Italy.

Below is a (modified for context) version of the email I sent him:

--BEGIN INCLUDE MESSAGE---

At first look, I tend to agree with others that it's a new
experimental Italian Time Signal. It is also shown on this
You Tube link:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQyKh694RU

Video claims to be: Experimental Time Signal from the italian private
socitey Italcable transmitting at 1KHz

Three observations from this recording:

a) The "pips" are about ~1k up from the main carrier on 10MHz.
Probably a little higher, maybe 1.1k

b) Right at the beginning, there is a burst of digital comms, that
to my ear sounded similar to 300 baud packet. Checking the Frequency
vs Amplitude display in the bottom left again, it appears that that
burst is up at ~2k+ from the 10MHz centre

Now...a PK232 running 300 baud uses the following frequencies:

2110 Mark, and 2310 space tones as a PK-232, with the center of the
tones being 2210 Hz, and going fullscreen on the video suggests that
the spikes during that burst are smack where we would see them for
300 baud packet when using a PK-232.

(With the resolution of the youtube video and the screen, thats as
accurate as I can get)

c) The burst does appear to repeat later in the recording, which
suggests it may be part of the time code, rather than some
Italian APRS station being a tad off frequency


I would suggest that the next step would be to put a 300 baud
PK232 MODEM on 10 MHz, and record anything that gets decoded.

If its ASCII (highly unlikely to be KISS Frames unless it is someone
way off frequency, and c) above would seem to suggest that's less
likely, then it may well be the time of day.

In that case, in order to use it, we need to work out the reference
point. There seems to be six pips 1 second apart, a gap of a two
seconds, followed by a final seventh pip.

While different to Radio 4's longer final pip, this is similar
to DCF where the final second of the minute is not modulated (MSF
does something similar with a 500mS "carrier off" at the beginning
of the minute.

My guess is the seventh pip identifies the start of the minute,
with the 6 pips beforehand being used for receivers to lock on,
and identify the 2 second gap, with the 300 baud packet being
used to carry the time information itself for the next minute.

Now, do you have the ability to listen on 10MHz with a PK232
tones sound MODEM ? :)

---END INCLUDE MESSAGE---

I am hoping to get a recording or two of it (I don't have HF
RF capability right now, but do have replay and 300 baud decode
capability), to see if it really is 300 baud packet, but have any
(Probably European) time-nuts hear this signal ?

Anyone have any details on the time code ? I'm going to hope it
might be possible to decode the time from the packet burst, but
if anyone has any prior knowledge, then a head start is never a
bad thing when trying to decode these things :)

(BTW, the station seems to play music most of the minute, which
quietens during the packet burst and pips)


All the Best

Iain






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[time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Iain Young]

Hi Folks,

A friend of mine sent me a You Tube recording of an unidentified Time
Station on 10MHz, possibly from Italy or Brazil. Further work seems to
suggest it is indeed an experimental time station from Italy.

Below is a (modified for context) version of the email I sent him:

--BEGIN INCLUDE MESSAGE---

At first look, I tend to agree with others that it's a new
experimental Italian Time Signal. It is also shown on this
You Tube link:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSQyKh694RU

Video claims to be: Experimental Time Signal from the italian private
socitey Italcable transmitting at 1KHz

Three observations from this recording:

a) The "pips" are about ~1k up from the main carrier on 10MHz.
Probably a little higher, maybe 1.1k

b) Right at the beginning, there is a burst of digital comms, that
to my ear sounded similar to 300 baud packet. Checking the Frequency
vs Amplitude display in the bottom left again, it appears that that
burst is up at ~2k+ from the 10MHz centre

Now...a PK232 running 300 baud uses the following frequencies:

2110 Mark, and 2310 space tones as a PK-232, with the center of the
tones being 2210 Hz, and going fullscreen on the video suggests that
the spikes during that burst are smack where we would see them for
300 baud packet when using a PK-232.

(With the resolution of the youtube video and the screen, thats as
accurate as I can get)

c) The burst does appear to repeat later in the recording, which
suggests it may be part of the time code, rather than some
Italian APRS station being a tad off frequency


I would suggest that the next step would be to put a 300 baud
PK232 MODEM on 10 MHz, and record anything that gets decoded.

If its ASCII (highly unlikely to be KISS Frames unless it is someone
way off frequency, and c) above would seem to suggest that's less
likely, then it may well be the time of day.

In that case, in order to use it, we need to work out the reference
point. There seems to be six pips 1 second apart, a gap of a two
seconds, followed by a final seventh pip.

While different to Radio 4's longer final pip, this is similar
to DCF where the final second of the minute is not modulated (MSF
does something similar with a 500mS "carrier off" at the beginning
of the minute.

My guess is the seventh pip identifies the start of the minute,
with the 6 pips beforehand being used for receivers to lock on,
and identify the 2 second gap, with the 300 baud packet being
used to carry the time information itself for the next minute.

Now, do you have the ability to listen on 10MHz with a PK232
tones sound MODEM ? :)

---END INCLUDE MESSAGE---

I am hoping to get a recording or two of it (I don't have HF
RF capability right now, but do have replay and 300 baud decode
capability), to see if it really is 300 baud packet, but have any
(Probably European) time-nuts hear this signal ?

Anyone have any details on the time code ? I'm going to hope it
might be possible to decode the time from the packet burst, but
if anyone has any prior knowledge, then a head start is never a
bad thing when trying to decode these things :)

(BTW, the station seems to play music most of the minute, which
quietens during the packet burst and pips)


All the Best

Iain









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