Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
On 4/7/17 7:10 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: Jim wrote: Charles wrote: [blob over wire bond construction] is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film hybrids and similar schemes. Very interesting. I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there and so forth. No doubt. I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs on plain FR4. While one problem with the blob technique is the permeability of the blob material, another is the permeability of the substrate -- and FR4 is pretty bad in this regard. We fly a fair amount of FR4 - sure, we might do some coupons or get source traceability. And it depends on the mission - a billion dollar mission to Europa is different than others. It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is very different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more* expensive than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would, of course, defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits). Not necessarily - the market for "custom hi-rel" stuff is getting smaller every day and a lot of times it just isn't available at all. You might want to choose a material with the right properties, but stuff that's made in large volumes tends to be pretty consistent - a mass market product can't have a huge dead on arrival rate. I'd say automotive applications probably have the most stringent, yet cost sensitive, requirements. I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may be less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may need to be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity only from the time of construction until launch. But that is a fairly long time - launch delays are pretty common. It's not unusual for something to be launched 5-6 years after being built (and, of course, spares for mission 1 get used on mission 2, coming along behind). Sure, we're not doing salt spray tests or condensing humidity - but most space electronics sits in a regular old airconditioned room for years. (The days of ashtrays built into the test console are long gone) Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for materials with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of consumer devices can. True enough - but then even for cheap commercial stuff, the CTEs are published. It's pretty easy to get the right materials. (barring buying your raw materials on eBay from unknown vendors, but then who knows what you're getting.. it's one step from a guy in an alley saying "hey, I've got some nice 2 part epoxy here, in the original package, fell off the back of a truck, I can let you have it for a good price, as long as it's cash" The real issue with CTE these days is large ceramic packages (e.g. those 1000+ pin BGA/CGA packages) vs the boards (whether FR-4 or polyimide) - given that we're not using anywhere near 1000 pins, a few dozen bond wires on a the die seems like a great idea. ANd bonding the die to the board is a lot better thermal transmission wise ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
On 4/7/17 6:25 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi On Apr 7, 2017, at 7:19 PM, jimlux wrote: On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: Bob wrote: The epoxy over wire bond construction approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. Humidity does not tend to be a big issue once you get in space :) Bob Yeah, but you sit for years on the ground waiting, in tropical areas no less. It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film hybrids and similar schemes. You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, and then you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something. A flipchip with a blob is even better. It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape the die off and bond a new one down). I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there and so forth. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi > On Apr 7, 2017, at 10:10 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: > > Jim wrote: > >> Charles wrote: > >>> [blob over wire bond construction] >>> is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects >>> such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. >>> In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely >>> disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable >>> cameras. > >> Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. It is much >> less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film >> hybrids and similar schemes. > > Very interesting. > >> I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on >> there and so forth. > > No doubt. I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs on > plain FR4. While one problem with the blob technique is the permeability of > the blob material, another is the permeability of the substrate -- and FR4 is > pretty bad in this regard. Unless you are building a thick film on ceramic, or a thin film on glass, the rest of the likely substrates are pretty permeable. > > It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is very > different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more* expensive > than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would, of course, > defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits). > > I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may be > less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may need to > be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity only from the > time of construction until launch. The other feature it provides is vibration protection for the wire bonds during launch. One would *hope* the device is stored in a low humidity package or dry box for the time (possibly years) between manufacture and launch. > > Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for materials > with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of consumer > devices can. As long as the interface materials (mounting cement and die coat) are a bit elastic, you can get some pretty good thermo cycle performance out of the normal mismatches. Bob > > Best regards, > > Charles > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Mike you may have missed it in the thread. I made a mistake its not the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am decoder. *You want the ES100*. Thats a true wwvb bpsk decoder. Contact La Crosse and ask if they have a model. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Seguin wrote: > Does anyone know of a clock with digital readout that uses the CME-8000? > > Tnx, > Mike > > > On 2017-04-07 13:03, Tom Van Baak wrote: > >> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. >>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. >>> >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's >> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both >> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's >> nice to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! >> >> >> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: >> >> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ >> >> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some >> experiments. The obvious ones are: >> >> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of >> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB >> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. >> >> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a >> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the >> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. >> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. >> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a >> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get >> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, >> or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note >> the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, >> and they do NOT drive 50R! >> >> >> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we >> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based >> on the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be >> like a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of >> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is >> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and >> low-power factor. >> >> /tvb >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "paul swed" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" < >> time-nuts@febo.com> >> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home >> >> >> Tom >> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. >> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > --- > 73, > Mike, N1JEZ > "A closed mouth gathers no feet" > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Jim wrote: Charles wrote: [blob over wire bond construction] is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film hybrids and similar schemes. Very interesting. I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there and so forth. No doubt. I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs on plain FR4. While one problem with the blob technique is the permeability of the blob material, another is the permeability of the substrate -- and FR4 is pretty bad in this regard. It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is very different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more* expensive than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would, of course, defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits). I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may be less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may need to be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity only from the time of construction until launch. Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for materials with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of consumer devices can. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Does anyone know of a clock with digital readout that uses the CME-8000? Tnx, Mike On 2017-04-07 13:03, Tom Van Baak wrote: Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. Hi Paul, I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some experiments. The obvious ones are: 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and they do NOT drive 50R! If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and low-power factor. /tvb - Original Message - From: "paul swed" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home Tom Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- 73, Mike, N1JEZ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi > On Apr 7, 2017, at 7:19 PM, jimlux wrote: > > On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: >> Bob wrote: >> >>> The epoxy over wire bond construction approach >>> is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. >> >> It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects >> such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In >> my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely >> disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. >> > > Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. Humidity does not tend to be a big issue once you get in space :) Bob > It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick > film hybrids and similar schemes. > > You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, and > then you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something. > > A flipchip with a blob is even better. > > It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape the > die off and bond a new one down). > > I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there > and so forth. > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Bob wrote: The epoxy over wire bond construction approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. Best regards. Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: Bob wrote: The epoxy over wire bond construction approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants. In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras. Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware. It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film hybrids and similar schemes. You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, and then you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something. A flipchip with a blob is even better. It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape the die off and bond a new one down). I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there and so forth. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hello to the group. No there is not a way to bring that information out. In fact it samples things much like other Time nuts threads have been discussing on GPS. It then stores the samples and figures out the data. So every 1.5 minutes you get a complete sentence. Its actually a bit more tricky then that because there are several modes to operate with. After getting a sentence you can operate in a short mode that allows the system to figure out the start of a minute and the tick. So that all sounds very bad. But actually its not. The sentence is quite complex especially with the error coding. Then there are also bits you simply can't easily determine because they can be changed. (Not that I have actually seen this) Obtaining the sentence allows you to fabricate the next sentences and then flip the incoming carrier one way or the other to remove the BPSK. That is exactly how the cheat'n-d-psk-r works though I just grab GPS time and fabricate the message straight out. This all requires 64 bit variables and math. Yes I could indeed use this wwvb signal. Just lazy and the cheatn d-psk-r GPS works very well so have not been motivated to change. Tom thanks for Orens email. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > > On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:16 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: > > > > Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips? Or to get > raw modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of > PaulS's de-PSKers? > > Unless it shows up on one of the test points on the photo’s, I suspect > not. The epoxy over wire bond construction > approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. > > The good news is that they do prove the new modulation works pretty darn > well in a number of locations. That at least > adds to the justification to do up some sort of receiver that works with > it. > > Bob > > > > > On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak > wrote: > >>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am > >> receiver. > >>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. > >> > >> Hi Paul, > >> > >> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's > >> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both > >> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice > >> to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! > >> > >> > >> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: > >> > >> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ > >> > >> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some > >> experiments. The obvious ones are: > >> > >> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of > >> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB > >> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. > >> > >> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a > >> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the > >> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. > >> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. > >> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a > >> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get > >> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or > >> picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the > >> signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and > >> they do NOT drive 50R! > >> > >> > >> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we > >> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on > >> the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like > >> a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of > >> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is > >> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and > >> low-power factor. > >> > >> /tvb > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "paul swed" > >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > >> > >> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home > >> > >> > >> Tom > >
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi > On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:16 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: > > Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips? Or to get raw > modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of PaulS's > de-PSKers? Unless it shows up on one of the test points on the photo’s, I suspect not. The epoxy over wire bond construction approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. The good news is that they do prove the new modulation works pretty darn well in a number of locations. That at least adds to the justification to do up some sort of receiver that works with it. Bob > > On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am >> receiver. >>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's >> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both >> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice >> to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! >> >> >> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: >> >> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ >> >> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some >> experiments. The obvious ones are: >> >> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of >> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB >> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. >> >> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a >> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the >> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. >> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. >> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a >> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get >> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or >> picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the >> signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and >> they do NOT drive 50R! >> >> >> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we >> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on >> the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like >> a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of >> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is >> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and >> low-power factor. >> >> /tvb >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "paul swed" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home >> >> >> Tom >> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am >> receiver. >> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi Since it’s a magnetic stepper motor, how about a magnetic (coil) sensor? Based on past data, anything past 1us is massive overkill. A mag sensor with a ~100 KHz bandwidth should be a do-able sort of thing. A couple dozen turns of wire around a suitable ferrite rod might be enough. Bob > On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > >> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. >> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. > > Hi Paul, > > I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's the > EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both used the > early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice to see the > chip still lives and finally made it to a product! > > > I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: > > http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ > > I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some experiments. > The obvious ones are: > > 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of > different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB > clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. > > 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a variety of > piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the tick), optical > sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. Some of these are > passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. Others require some level > of disassembly but are more precise. For a stepper motor clock it's easy to > tap onto the coil connections and get a sharp pulse every second or two. Then > use a time interval counter, or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to > collect readings. Note the signal level is usually low power and below > typical TTL levels, and they do NOT drive 50R! > > > If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we get > someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on the ES100 > chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like a million times > worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of applications need only ms level > timing; there are places where WWVB is receivable and GNSS is not; and then > there's the redundancy and low-power factor. > > /tvb > > - Original Message ----- > From: "paul swed" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home > > > Tom > Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. > It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips? Or to get raw modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of PaulS's de-PSKers? On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am >receiver. >> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. > >Hi Paul, > >I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's >the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both >used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice >to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! > > >I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: > >http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ > >I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some >experiments. The obvious ones are: > >1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of >different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB >clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. > >2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a >variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the >tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. >Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. >Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a >stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get >a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or >picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the >signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and >they do NOT drive 50R! > > >If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we >get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on >the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like >a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of >applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is >receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and >low-power factor. > >/tvb > >- Original Message - >From: "paul swed" >To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > >Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home > > >Tom >Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am >receiver. >It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. >Regards >Paul >WB8TSL > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. > It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. Hi Paul, I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product! I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos: http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some experiments. The obvious ones are: 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors. 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and they do NOT drive 50R! If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and low-power factor. /tvb - Original Message - From: "paul swed" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home Tom Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Tom Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver. It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > I’m sure it would have happily corrected for summer time in Europe two > weeks later …. Provided (of course) it got the switch > codes from DCF77 to tell it when to do so. My guess is that the tiny > little watch antenna isn’t very good picking up time code > from the other side of the Atlantic :) As I understand the beast it makes > no attempt to work out when a shift should happen. It > simply pulls data off of the RF signal to tell it what to do. > > Bob > > > On Apr 6, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Martin VE3OAT wrote: > > > > Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that > Europe changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North > America have anything to do with it? > > > > ... Martin VE3OAT > > > > Bob (KB8TW) wrote : > >> > >> On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this > year. > >> I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out > which system > >> to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather > than WWVB. > >> > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi I’m sure it would have happily corrected for summer time in Europe two weeks later …. Provided (of course) it got the switch codes from DCF77 to tell it when to do so. My guess is that the tiny little watch antenna isn’t very good picking up time code from the other side of the Atlantic :) As I understand the beast it makes no attempt to work out when a shift should happen. It simply pulls data off of the RF signal to tell it what to do. Bob > On Apr 6, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Martin VE3OAT wrote: > > Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that Europe > changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North America have > anything to do with it? > > ... Martin VE3OAT > > Bob (KB8TW) wrote : >> >> On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year. >> I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which >> system >> to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than >> WWVB. >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that Europe changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North America have anything to do with it? ... Martin VE3OAT Bob (KB8TW) wrote : On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year. I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which system to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than WWVB. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Yes its quite common. The clocks are always off by sometime and generally never account for winter and summer time. Lastly ooops the ole batteries dead or corroded. In Broadcast facilities all of the clocks are actually driven by synchronized time codes. Either LTC or IRIG. The clocks can be either analog or digital. Being a time nut numbers of my clocks run on LTC and I have used IRIG. Silly. I know. But what I can say is as mentioned the new ultraclocks should be very very good over the troublesome AM units. I used the CME8000 chip for quite some time supporting some testing. Essentially logging when it did or didn't obtain complete sentances. Boy did it work. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > kb...@n1k.org said: > > UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past. > > I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks > > running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks > are > > very much in favor of doing that :) > > I think it's common for companies/groups with offices in several countries > to > have a cluster of clocks showing the time in each office. > > 24 hour clocks would work better. I think you have to correct for DST > changes manually. > > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
In the office where I work, they have 5 clocks on the wall showing local time here at HQ and at 4 other company sites. It is embarrassing that the clocks are always a few minutes off from each other. I can see where these would make sense. Rick N6RK On 4/5/2017 4:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: HI UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past. I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are very much in favor of doing that :) Bob On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:) Bob This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC. Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well. Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder and could not display UTC. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
kb...@n1k.org said: > UTC I understand. Iâve used that feature on âatomicâ clocks in the past. > Iâm still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks > running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are > very much in favor of doing that :) I think it's common for companies/groups with offices in several countries to have a cluster of clocks showing the time in each office. 24 hour clocks would work better. I think you have to correct for DST changes manually. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi > On Apr 5, 2017, at 9:00 AM, Jim Harman wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks >> running >> on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are >> very much in favor of doing that >> > > It's probably for flashy newsrooms, where they like to have clocks with the > time in London, Moscow, Tokyo, etc. It's nice to have all the second hands > jumping simultaneously! > > The challenge there is to keep the clocks correct for summer time, which > changes on different dates in Europe and of course in the other direction > in the Southern Hemisphere. I’m *sure* :) that the embedded information in the chip takes care of all that stuff correctly …. On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year. I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which system to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than WWVB. Multiple time zone stuff is *not* simple. Bob > > > -- > > --Jim Harman > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi The Lacrosse wall clocks I’m using now are hybrid analog / digital displays. You get the time analog and the date off the digital display. For whatever reason, that model is now history. Bob > On Apr 5, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist > wrote: > > Why? oh why? is this only available as an analog clock?? > I am wondering if Lacrosse only has the rights to an analog > version and that a higher priced digital version will > show up in some "professional" line from another vendor. > This is at least a plausible theory because this is > a well known business model: "incremental" revenue > that doesn't "cannibalize" the cash cow. At least > this is/was popular with HP/Agilent/Keysight management > where I work(ed). > > Rick N6RK > > > On 4/4/2017 8:00 PM, paul swed wrote: >> Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download >> anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true >> wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well >> even in New England. >> But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if >> I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out >> some 2-3 years ago around Christmas. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> >>> I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC. >>> >>> They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning >>> when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK) >>> WWVB wall clocks. >>> >>> The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple >>> years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a >>> year before needing replacement. >>> >>> I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year >>> ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display >>> can show UTC. About $90. >>> >>> Tim N3QE >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks > running > on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are > very much in favor of doing that > It's probably for flashy newsrooms, where they like to have clocks with the time in London, Moscow, Tokyo, etc. It's nice to have all the second hands jumping simultaneously! The challenge there is to keep the clocks correct for summer time, which changes on different dates in Europe and of course in the other direction in the Southern Hemisphere. -- --Jim Harman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Why? oh why? is this only available as an analog clock?? I am wondering if Lacrosse only has the rights to an analog version and that a higher priced digital version will show up in some "professional" line from another vendor. This is at least a plausible theory because this is a well known business model: "incremental" revenue that doesn't "cannibalize" the cash cow. At least this is/was popular with HP/Agilent/Keysight management where I work(ed). Rick N6RK On 4/4/2017 8:00 PM, paul swed wrote: Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well even in New England. But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out some 2-3 years ago around Christmas. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC. They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK) WWVB wall clocks. The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a year before needing replacement. I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display can show UTC. About $90. Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Will say that is pretty interesting that it takes either 2 or 4 c cells. It appears they parallel the C cells for more time. In eco mode 2 batteries 3 years or 4 batteries 6 years. Run time will vary depending on the batteries leaking in 3.5 years. At least it seems that way today. (Not to trigger a left turn in the discussion) All in all looks like a nice arrangement. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > HI > > UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past. > I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks > running > on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are > very much in favor of doing that :) > > Bob > > > On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < > rich...@karlquist.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version > that > >> does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set > it to > >> any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage > >> area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:) > >> > >> Bob > >> > > > > This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC. > > Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well. > > Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder > > and could not display UTC. > > > > Rick N6RK > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
HI UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past. I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are very much in favor of doing that :) Bob > On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist > wrote: > > > > On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> Hi >> >> Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that >> does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to >> any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage >> area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:) >> >> Bob >> > > This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC. > Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well. > Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder > and could not display UTC. > > Rick N6RK > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Paul, et al, 1) The La Crosse 1235UA does indeed receive the new WWVB PSK format. It was first brought to our attention by Brooke Clarke some months ago: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-November/101885.html Prices vary from affordable to lets-see-how-much-we-can-charge, depending on the month and source. I bought a couple to measure and tear apart. As advertised and predicted they set themselves within minutes, at all times of day, even under adverse reception conditions. Those of you new to the "enhanced" (and mostly backwards-compatible) WWVB format can look at hundreds of postings in the time-nuts archives in the past 5 years (google for site:febo.com wwvb psk) where we discussed this topic. 2) The La Crosse movement is made by U.T.S. -- the same German OEM (www.u-t-s.de/) that makes the guts of lots of MSF / DCF77 / WWVB / JJY wall clocks. This new WWVB-PSK version is quite a bit more complex than the traditional WWVB-AM version. Two orthogonal antenna tilted at 45 degrees is one clue; a few more CoB (chip on board) is another. It has two steppers; one for hours/minutes and one for seconds. Also the usual optical feedback sensor for alignment of gears & hands. It uses one or two C-cells and also has an "ECO-mode" switch. Given that most WWVB receivers use AA or AAA or even tiny watch-batteries, the need for two large C-cells and an optional ECO mode suggests maybe there's a power issue. User manual: http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/media/catalog/product/4/0/404-1235ua-ss_1.pdf 3) I'll upload the tear down photos to: http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/ Note also these WWVB/PSK clocks are among the first WWVB clocks I have that handle a positive leap second correctly. During the most recent leap second (2016-12-31) they paused at :59 for an extra second. See the IMG_3126 video in the above directory. The audio track is a Heathkit WWV s/w receiver. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
I have had a Stauer Titanium Atomic wristwatch for 6 years. Never had a problem. Never have had to set it. Still on the original battery. Automatic DST. Analog dial for hours and minutes... digital display for seconds and month/date. It is always in step with WWV... ;-) 73 Don W4WJ In a message dated 4/4/2017 9:01:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tsho...@gmail.com writes: I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC. They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK) WWVB wall clocks. The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a year before needing replacement. I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display can show UTC. About $90. Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well even in New England. But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out some 2-3 years ago around Christmas. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC. > > They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning > when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK) > WWVB wall clocks. > > The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple > years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a > year before needing replacement. > > I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year > ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display > can show UTC. About $90. > > Tim N3QE > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC. They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK) WWVB wall clocks. The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a year before needing replacement. I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display can show UTC. About $90. Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:) Bob This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC. Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well. Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder and could not display UTC. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
In message , paul swed writes: >I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La >Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the >technical quality of these products. They're probably based around one of C-max chips: http://www.c-max-time.com/products/showProduct.php?id=17 (This is the old Temic technology that has wandered all over the place...) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
Hi Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:) Bob > On Apr 4, 2017, at 4:54 PM, paul swed wrote: > > I was in a walmart the other day and noticed that there were numbers of > atomic clocks. Thought the fad had died off due to lots of reasons. > > I was curious did those magical supa-dupa atomic clocks that screwed the > old phase tracking receivers ever arrive? Son of a gun they did. I must > have missed the 6 pm news story on this technology. Pretty sure we all did. > > Anyhow humor aside at least one clock from La Crosse does exist. > 404-1235ua for $79. Seems steep but then again these clocks do use the > phase code and do not care about the orientation. They have 2 antennas at > 90 degrees and they select the best signal. > I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La > Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the > technical quality of these products. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
I was in a walmart the other day and noticed that there were numbers of atomic clocks. Thought the fad had died off due to lots of reasons. I was curious did those magical supa-dupa atomic clocks that screwed the old phase tracking receivers ever arrive? Son of a gun they did. I must have missed the 6 pm news story on this technology. Pretty sure we all did. Anyhow humor aside at least one clock from La Crosse does exist. 404-1235ua for $79. Seems steep but then again these clocks do use the phase code and do not care about the orientation. They have 2 antennas at 90 degrees and they select the best signal. I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the technical quality of these products. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
