Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Capacitance is, of course, measured in 'jars' as per the 'Admiralty Handbook of Wireless Telegraphy' (1930 -ish) :-) I do use Farads (bits of them, anyway) guys, really. Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Don Latham [mailto:d...@montana.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 21:02 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? OK, it's right most folks (except for NASA, poke poke) do not have to know the difference between a pound mass and a pound force, or capacitance in ??? etc. The SI units are best for science because they are all tied together with common ground. OTH, my grandmother's cookie recipe only puts pounds or is it slugs on me... Don Justin Pinnix Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric system and understand how it works. Personally, I agree that it is a simpler and superior system. But, English is the system we think in. We know that if a person is 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and wish for 70 degree days. Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour. Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them. Most are not scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country. Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and English at home. Is that wrong? Maybe, but we're smart people and we can deal with it :-) It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands. Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the metric system. One of them measured distance between cities in km and speed limits in MPH. Now THAT was annoying! Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't catch on. Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English! On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it. I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively few in my circle of friends with extensive experience with both systems, and after 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for itself as far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far as I am concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any other frame of reference. Your mileage may vary. I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer the metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the inch or the foot to measure anything. But there are other considerations when using one system versus the other. Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of an inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and tools) are still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch dimensions, so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, and even then they are not always right. When trying to mentally add two, three or four dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two digits to the left of the decimal point, it stops being fun and its easy to make mistakes. Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France. Most dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling much easier. That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less precise. Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference. In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their diameter, not a reference number that requires a table to figure out how big they are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, they are not arbitrary, but while they may simplify some calculations, in everyday tasks, these numbers tend to complicate life instead of simplifying it. Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls. In France, I do not remember that we needed so many. Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. But its just my opinion :) Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 14
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Oh dear, what have I helped to get going :-) It has certainly been interesting reading! My point was, as Chuck notes, that the metre, kilogram etc. are no more 'precise' than a yard, pound etc. being, essentially, arbitrary units and the 'imperial' units can be defined just as accurately and in the same way. I will certainly concede that things become 'interesting' when converting between different units outside of the 'metric' system (and the 'metric' system went through several versions -with distinctly odd units - before the current standardised one) but that just relates to my comment on the reduction of mental arithmetic abilities nowadays as against simple decimal point shifting.. I'm not sure I would agree on being 'forced' to take on certain measurements - we are a lot closer to Europe (sort of...), after all - but pints, inches and miles do seem more 'natural' (a litre is just too much beer) and you could never measure a cricket pitch in metres! That's all from me, Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris [mailto:cfhar...@erols.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 02:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. Saying that the use of pounds, and yards is imprecise is simply ignorant. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Regardless of our measurement systems, we are already a world community. The strife we see in the world today is not the result of measurements, but rather is the result of religion, politics, and culture. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Paul, a cricket pitch is 20 m. Sure when the curator draws the lines it is 12cm longer, (and I guarantee s/he uses a metric measure) but when we pace it out for backyard cricket - its 20 m. Also my American friends, all your imperial measurements are DEFINED in terms of metric. eg your inch is 25.4 mm exactly. By definition. It has been estimated you could save a trillion dollars a year in your economy by converting - which you will ultimately do. I just hope it is in my lifetime. On Wednesday, 14 December 2011, Reeves Paul paul.ree...@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote: Oh dear, what have I helped to get going :-) It has certainly been interesting reading! My point was, as Chuck notes, that the metre, kilogram etc. are no more 'precise' than a yard, pound etc. being, essentially, arbitrary units and the 'imperial' units can be defined just as accurately and in the same way. I will certainly concede that things become 'interesting' when converting between different units outside of the 'metric' system (and the 'metric' system went through several versions -with distinctly odd units - before the current standardised one) but that just relates to my comment on the reduction of mental arithmetic abilities nowadays as against simple decimal point shifting.. I'm not sure I would agree on being 'forced' to take on certain measurements - we are a lot closer to Europe (sort of...), after all - but pints, inches and miles do seem more 'natural' (a litre is just too much beer) and you could never measure a cricket pitch in metres! That's all from me, Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris [mailto:cfhar...@erols.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 02:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. Saying that the use of pounds, and yards is imprecise is simply ignorant. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Regardless of our measurement systems, we are already a world community. The strife we see in the world today is not the result of measurements, but rather is the result of religion, politics, and culture. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
But it is 1 chain, (22 yards), surely? And you admitted that is not 20m when laid out properly. The laws of cricket have not changed (even if they give a metric equivalent) just because we might have joined the EU!! I have no objection to using a metric measure to do it but you have to use a non-integer value - and do the conversion. Not very elegant. So if tape measures with joint metric/imperial markings are available - and they are - why not use the correct measure in the first place? As to the definition of the inch it works both ways - why have 25.4 subdivisions of an arbitrary length to equal one inch. Just use an inch - it's no less valid and the yard/metre can both be defined in exactly the same way as so-and-so many wavelengths of Kr86 light. As I said, it's just that the internal standards conversions in the 'metric' system are easier. Just nit-picking, really. I use both systems happily as, I suspect, most people of my age do, depending on circumstance. Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman [mailto:jim77...@gmail.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 11:23 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Paul, a cricket pitch is 20 m. Sure when the curator draws the lines it is 12cm longer, (and I guarantee s/he uses a metric measure) but when we pace it out for backyard cricket - its 20 m. Also my American friends, all your imperial measurements are DEFINED in terms of metric. eg your inch is 25.4 mm exactly. By definition. It has been estimated you could save a trillion dollars a year in your economy by converting - which you will ultimately do. I just hope it is in my lifetime. On Wednesday, 14 December 2011, Reeves Paul paul.ree...@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote: Oh dear, what have I helped to get going :-) It has certainly been interesting reading! My point was, as Chuck notes, that the metre, kilogram etc. are no more 'precise' than a yard, pound etc. being, essentially, arbitrary units and the 'imperial' units can be defined just as accurately and in the same way. I will certainly concede that things become 'interesting' when converting between different units outside of the 'metric' system (and the 'metric' system went through several versions -with distinctly odd units - before the current standardised one) but that just relates to my comment on the reduction of mental arithmetic abilities nowadays as against simple decimal point shifting.. I'm not sure I would agree on being 'forced' to take on certain measurements - we are a lot closer to Europe (sort of...), after all - but pints, inches and miles do seem more 'natural' (a litre is just too much beer) and you could never measure a cricket pitch in metres! That's all from me, Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris [mailto:cfhar...@erols.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 02:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. Saying that the use of pounds, and yards is imprecise is simply ignorant. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Regardless of our measurement systems, we are already a world community. The strife we see in the world today is not the result of measurements, but rather is the result of religion, politics, and culture. -Chuck Harris
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Dave Martindale dave.martind...@gmail.com wrote: But where the metric system has an advantage is that the units with the same name are the same size everywhere; that's not true of English units. I can remember mixing Kodak photographic chemicals for darkroom use, where the mixing instructions are in terms of ounces and gallons. But I was in Canada, where the Imperial (British) ounce and gallon are both different volumes than the American (and thus Kodak) units of the same name. Fortunately, the inch seems to be the same size everywhere, so I don't have to figure out whether someone is talking about British inches or American inches. It's possibly worth noting that it is only the units of volume that differ between the American customary and British Imperial systems of units. The systems diverged because in the 18th century there were multiple volume measures in use (the ale gallon, the wine gallon, the Winchester bushel). The US simplified by using the wine gallon for all liquid volumes and kept the Winchester bushel for grain volume. Britain was more influenced by French metrication, which led to a new unified system based on the Imperial gallon, defined as the volume of 10 lb water. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Portland, Plymouth, Biscay: West 7 to severe gale 9, occasionally storm 10 later. Very rough or high, occasionally very high. Squally thundery showers. Moderate, occasionally poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Hal Murray wrote: ... If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system would make more sense to you? Ah! A Godcentric view of the universe. Decimal is an arbitrary number system that came about purely because we had 10 fingers, and a brain that could only think of using them to count on. Your hands are probably right now fondling a model of a life form that would find the metric system to be quite foreign, and unfriendly... Surely you should count using a number system based on an even power of 2? There was a time when I spent more time doing arithmetic in octal than in decimal. If humans had been born with 4 fingers on each hand, we would be talking about how certain we were that an alien would find an octal centric measurement system made more sense. Metric is purely arbitrary, as are all of the variants on the English system. Life would go just as smoothly if we had standardized on the inch, pound, and gallon, and used decimal fractions and multiples to represent measurements larger and smaller than the unit. -Chuck Harris OBTW, as time nuts, we are steeped in the two units of measure that are decidedly non-metric: seconds, and Hz. Think about it... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
El 14/12/2011 16:30, Chuck Harris escribió: OBTW, as time nuts, we are steeped in the two units of measure that are decidedly non-metric: seconds, and Hz. Think about it... I find the second quite metric in the sense of powers of ten: we measure seconds, milliseconds, nanoseconds... and not usualy 15/32 of a second. The non-metric ones could be the minute, hour, day And for the Hz the same applies. Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: Metric is purely arbitrary, as are all of the variants on the English system. They are not equally arbitrary. The metric system was constructed from the size and rate of rotation of the Earth and the density of water, plus some well-organized constant factors. (The relation between length, volume, and mass is elegantly simple.) Customary measures are based on artefacts whose size cannot be recovered if they are lost, with irregular subdividing factors and no commonality between the units for different physical dimensions. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle: West, veering northwest, 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 at first. Rough or very rough, occasionally high. Squally showers. Moderate or good. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
yes, but 4 rods in the RSF system... Reeves Paul But it is 1 chain, (22 yards), surely? And you admitted that is not 20m when laid out properly. The laws of cricket have not changed (even if they give a metric equivalent) just because we might have joined the EU!! I have no objection to using a metric measure to do it but you have to use a non-integer value - and do the conversion. Not very elegant. So if tape measures with joint metric/imperial markings are available - and they are - why not use the correct measure in the first place? As to the definition of the inch it works both ways - why have 25.4 subdivisions of an arbitrary length to equal one inch. Just use an inch - it's no less valid and the yard/metre can both be defined in exactly the same way as so-and-so many wavelengths of Kr86 light. As I said, it's just that the internal standards conversions in the 'metric' system are easier. Just nit-picking, really. I use both systems happily as, I suspect, most people of my age do, depending on circumstance. Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman [mailto:jim77...@gmail.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 11:23 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Paul, a cricket pitch is 20 m. Sure when the curator draws the lines it is 12cm longer, (and I guarantee s/he uses a metric measure) but when we pace it out for backyard cricket - its 20 m. Also my American friends, all your imperial measurements are DEFINED in terms of metric. eg your inch is 25.4 mm exactly. By definition. It has been estimated you could save a trillion dollars a year in your economy by converting - which you will ultimately do. I just hope it is in my lifetime. On Wednesday, 14 December 2011, Reeves Paul paul.ree...@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote: Oh dear, what have I helped to get going :-) It has certainly been interesting reading! My point was, as Chuck notes, that the metre, kilogram etc. are no more 'precise' than a yard, pound etc. being, essentially, arbitrary units and the 'imperial' units can be defined just as accurately and in the same way. I will certainly concede that things become 'interesting' when converting between different units outside of the 'metric' system (and the 'metric' system went through several versions -with distinctly odd units - before the current standardised one) but that just relates to my comment on the reduction of mental arithmetic abilities nowadays as against simple decimal point shifting.. I'm not sure I would agree on being 'forced' to take on certain measurements - we are a lot closer to Europe (sort of...), after all - but pints, inches and miles do seem more 'natural' (a litre is just too much beer) and you could never measure a cricket pitch in metres! That's all from me, Paul Reeves G8GJA -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris [mailto:cfhar...@erols.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 02:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. Saying that the use of pounds, and yards is imprecise is simply ignorant. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Regardless of our measurement systems, we are already a world community. The strife we see in the world today is not the result of measurements
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it. I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively few in my circle of friends with extensive experience with both systems, and after 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for itself as far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far as I am concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any other frame of reference. Your mileage may vary. I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer the metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the inch or the foot to measure anything. But there are other considerations when using one system versus the other. Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of an inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and tools) are still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch dimensions, so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, and even then they are not always right. When trying to mentally add two, three or four dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two digits to the left of the decimal point, it stops being fun and its easy to make mistakes. Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France. Most dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling much easier. That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less precise. Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference. In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their diameter, not a reference number that requires a table to figure out how big they are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, they are not arbitrary, but while they may simplify some calculations, in everyday tasks, these numbers tend to complicate life instead of simplifying it. Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls. In France, I do not remember that we needed so many. Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. But its just my opinion :) Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:30:34 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Hal Murray wrote: ... If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system would make more sense to you? Ah! A Godcentric view of the universe. Decimal is an arbitrary number system that came about purely because we had 10 fingers, and a brain that could only think of using them to count on. Your hands are probably right now fondling a model of a life form that would find the metric system to be quite foreign, and unfriendly... Surely you should count using a number system based on an even power of 2? There was a time when I spent more time doing arithmetic in octal than in decimal. If humans had been born with 4 fingers on each hand, we would be talking about how certain we were that an alien would find an octal centric measurement system made more sense. Metric is purely arbitrary, as are all of the variants on the English system. Life would go just as smoothly if we had standardized on the inch, pound, and gallon, and used decimal fractions and multiples to represent measurements larger and smaller than the unit. -Chuck Harris OBTW, as time nuts, we are steeped in the two units of measure that are decidedly non-metric: seconds, and Hz. Think about it... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/14/2011 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. I remember one (and only one) thing from my 7th grade math teacher: A pint's a pound the world around. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric system and understand how it works. Personally, I agree that it is a simpler and superior system. But, English is the system we think in. We know that if a person is 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and wish for 70 degree days. Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour. Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them. Most are not scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country. Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and English at home. Is that wrong? Maybe, but we're smart people and we can deal with it :-) It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands. Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the metric system. One of them measured distance between cities in km and speed limits in MPH. Now THAT was annoying! Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't catch on. Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English! On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it. I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively few in my circle of friends with extensive experience with both systems, and after 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for itself as far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far as I am concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any other frame of reference. Your mileage may vary. I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer the metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the inch or the foot to measure anything. But there are other considerations when using one system versus the other. Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of an inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and tools) are still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch dimensions, so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, and even then they are not always right. When trying to mentally add two, three or four dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two digits to the left of the decimal point, it stops being fun and its easy to make mistakes. Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France. Most dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling much easier. That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less precise. Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference. In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their diameter, not a reference number that requires a table to figure out how big they are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, they are not arbitrary, but while they may simplify some calculations, in everyday tasks, these numbers tend to complicate life instead of simplifying it. Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls. In France, I do not remember that we needed so many. Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. But its just my opinion :) Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:30:34 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Hal Murray wrote: ... If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system would make more sense to you? Ah! A Godcentric view of the universe. Decimal is an arbitrary number system that came about purely because we had 10 fingers, and a brain that could only think of using them to count on. Your hands are probably right now fondling a model of a life form that would find the metric system to be quite foreign, and unfriendly... Surely you should count using a number system based on an even power of 2? There was a time when I spent more
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
John, No it isn't. Not even close to the world around. From WP: One fluid ounce is 1⁄16 of a U.S. pint, 1⁄32 of a U.S. quart, and 1⁄128 of a U.S. gallon. The fluid ounce derives its name originally from being the volume of one ounce avoirdupois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoirdupoisof water, but in the U.S. it is defined as 1⁄128 of a U.S. gallon. Consequently, a fluid ounce of water weighs about 1.041 ounces avoirdupois. The saying a pint's a pound the world around refers to 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately (about 4% more than) one pound avoirdupois. An imperial pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter. You also have troy and apothecary systems - all different. Urrghhh. A cubic metre holds 1000 litres (exactly) and a 10x10x10 cm container holds a litre (exactly). A litre of water weighs 1kg, A ml of water weight 1 gram. (Fantastic for cooking btw - use digital scales, put your bowl on them, zero it and add, say, 250g of milk/water/most liquids) And if you want a laugh go youtube American Chopper metric system and watch that short video. It is the final conclusive proof why metric is superior. Jim On 15 December 2011 07:02, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote: On 12/14/2011 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. I remember one (and only one) thing from my 7th grade math teacher: A pint's a pound the world around. John __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
OK, it's right most folks (except for NASA, poke poke) do not have to know the difference between a pound mass and a pound force, or capacitance in ??? etc. The SI units are best for science because they are all tied together with common ground. OTH, my grandmother's cookie recipe only puts pounds or is it slugs on me... Don Justin Pinnix Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric system and understand how it works. Personally, I agree that it is a simpler and superior system. But, English is the system we think in. We know that if a person is 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and wish for 70 degree days. Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour. Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them. Most are not scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country. Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and English at home. Is that wrong? Maybe, but we're smart people and we can deal with it :-) It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands. Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the metric system. One of them measured distance between cities in km and speed limits in MPH. Now THAT was annoying! Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't catch on. Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English! On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it. I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively few in my circle of friends with extensive experience with both systems, and after 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for itself as far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far as I am concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any other frame of reference. Your mileage may vary. I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer the metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the inch or the foot to measure anything. But there are other considerations when using one system versus the other. Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of an inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and tools) are still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch dimensions, so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, and even then they are not always right. When trying to mentally add two, three or four dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two digits to the left of the decimal point, it stops being fun and its easy to make mistakes. Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France. Most dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling much easier. That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less precise. Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference. In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their diameter, not a reference number that requires a table to figure out how big they are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, they are not arbitrary, but while they may simplify some calculations, in everyday tasks, these numbers tend to complicate life instead of simplifying it. Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls. In France, I do not remember that we needed so many. Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. But its just my opinion :) Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:30:34 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Hal Murray wrote: ... If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system would make more sense to you? Ah! A Godcentric view of the universe. Decimal
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Good Lord, I thought he meant the cost of beer Don Jim Palfreyman John, No it isn't. Not even close to the world around. From WP: One fluid ounce is 1â16 of a U.S. pint, 1â32 of a U.S. quart, and 1â128 of a U.S. gallon. The fluid ounce derives its name originally from being the volume of one ounce avoirdupois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoirdupoisof water, but in the U.S. it is defined as 1â128 of a U.S. gallon. Consequently, a fluid ounce of water weighs about 1.041 ounces avoirdupois. The saying a pint's a pound the world around refers to 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately (about 4% more than) one pound avoirdupois. An imperial pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter. You also have troy and apothecary systems - all different. Urrghhh. A cubic metre holds 1000 litres (exactly) and a 10x10x10 cm container holds a litre (exactly). A litre of water weighs 1kg, A ml of water weight 1 gram. (Fantastic for cooking btw - use digital scales, put your bowl on them, zero it and add, say, 250g of milk/water/most liquids) And if you want a laugh go youtube American Chopper metric system and watch that short video. It is the final conclusive proof why metric is superior. Jim On 15 December 2011 07:02, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote: On 12/14/2011 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy. I remember one (and only one) thing from my 7th grade math teacher: A pint's a pound the world around. John __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/14/11 12:59 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: A cubic metre holds 1000 litres (exactly) and a 10x10x10 cm container holds a litre (exactly). A litre of water weighs 1kg, A ml of water weight 1 gram. (Fantastic for cooking btw - use digital scales, put your bowl on them, zero it and add, say, 250g of milk/water/most liquids) And if you want a laugh go youtube American Chopper metric system and watch that short video. It is the final conclusive proof why metric is superior. As my daughter said... Curse those Babylonians and their reliance on fractions (this is why they make calculators that do fractions.. for kitchen and shop use Those recipes that call for 1 cup and 1 tablespoon of something, and you're making a 1/2 recipe or something. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/14/11 12:44 PM, Justin Pinnix wrote: Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric system and understand how it works. Personally, I agree that it is a simpler and superior system. But, English is the system we think in. We know that if a person is 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and wish for 70 degree days. Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour. Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them. Most are not scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country. Based on practical experience (moving to another country several times over the years), the disruption in day to day life is minimal. Pretty soon, you ask for a half or third kilo of cheese instead of a pound. You know that 10 degrees is cool, chilly in the shade, 20 degrees is nice, 30 degrees is pleasantly warm, and 40 is hot. -20 is where spit goes clink. A yard and a meter are about the same, so if you're buying fabric or rope or wire that works out pretty well. A square meter is about 10 square feet, so if you're looking at apartments, 40 sq m is smallish, 200 is palatial. People by gasoline by money amounts (or fill it up). Back when gas started to go over $1/gallon, some stations changed their pump to read in liters, and it was only moderately inconvenient, and after a while you get used to it. I think if we did the massive cutover there would be whining and complaining for about a month or two. In a year, all the recipes would be printed in metric, except for books specializing in archaic styles.. but those exist today.. my wife has screwed up more than once using a recipe originating from her (English) mother or grandmother. If you buy a graduated measuring cup today it likely has both metric and US Customary units on it. Yes, you need to know that a teaspoon is 5ml and tablespoon is 15ml, but that's not exactly an ordeal. The tricky thing is manufacturing and customary sizes. That 1/4-20 bolt has a long and enduring history and we'll be making them for decades to come. But over 10-20 years, instead of bolt bins at the local hardware store having mostly customary units with a smaller section for metric, we'll have more metric, with a smaller section for customary. Most folks have both sets of wrenches and hex keys, etc. (or, they just use the adjustable wrench or those ChannelLok serrated pliers, so they can rip the corners off any nut, metric or US) Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and English at home. Is that wrong? Maybe, but we're smart people and we can deal with it :-) It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands. Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the metric system. One of them measured distance between cities in km and speed limits in MPH. Now THAT was annoying! Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't catch on. Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
If the banks here or anywhere should start to fail in the next 6 months or so it is beneficial to know that a Krugerrand is an ounce of gold which should buy more than enough food for a month for a family, and that an MOA is a little more than an inch at 100 yards (or 93 some odd meters if you prefer), and what 150 grains at 2700ft/s can do... Sent from my iPad On Dec 14, 2011, at 14:25, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 12/14/11 12:44 PM, Justin Pinnix wrote: Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric system and understand how it works. Personally, I agree that it is a simpler and superior system. But, English is the system we think in. We know that if a person is 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and wish for 70 degree days. Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour. Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them. Most are not scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country. Based on practical experience (moving to another country several times over the years), the disruption in day to day life is minimal. Pretty soon, you ask for a half or third kilo of cheese instead of a pound. You know that 10 degrees is cool, chilly in the shade, 20 degrees is nice, 30 degrees is pleasantly warm, and 40 is hot. -20 is where spit goes clink. A yard and a meter are about the same, so if you're buying fabric or rope or wire that works out pretty well. A square meter is about 10 square feet, so if you're looking at apartments, 40 sq m is smallish, 200 is palatial. People by gasoline by money amounts (or fill it up). Back when gas started to go over $1/gallon, some stations changed their pump to read in liters, and it was only moderately inconvenient, and after a while you get used to it. I think if we did the massive cutover there would be whining and complaining for about a month or two. In a year, all the recipes would be printed in metric, except for books specializing in archaic styles.. but those exist today.. my wife has screwed up more than once using a recipe originating from her (English) mother or grandmother. If you buy a graduated measuring cup today it likely has both metric and US Customary units on it. Yes, you need to know that a teaspoon is 5ml and tablespoon is 15ml, but that's not exactly an ordeal. The tricky thing is manufacturing and customary sizes. That 1/4-20 bolt has a long and enduring history and we'll be making them for decades to come. But over 10-20 years, instead of bolt bins at the local hardware store having mostly customary units with a smaller section for metric, we'll have more metric, with a smaller section for customary. Most folks have both sets of wrenches and hex keys, etc. (or, they just use the adjustable wrench or those ChannelLok serrated pliers, so they can rip the corners off any nut, metric or US) Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and English at home. Is that wrong? Maybe, but we're smart people and we can deal with it :-) It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands. Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the metric system. One of them measured distance between cities in km and speed limits in MPH. Now THAT was annoying! Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't catch on. Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Injection locking: perhaps the first to document this effect was indeed Christiaan Huygens.* * On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Jim Palfreyman jim77...@gmail.com wrote: Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Have we no female time-nuts? Interesting. On 12/13/2011 04:28 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Yawn! Jim Palfreyman wrote: Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
...and just what is 'less accurate' about pounds, feet, cubic yards etc? The metric system (I use the term loosely) is ideal for those people who cannot do mental arithmetic and can only shift decimal points. All 'imperial' measurements can be defined just as the metre, kilogramme (and there is a dodgy one...)can be. Remember that the metre is originally based on (very) inaccurate French surveying techniques, a yard would do just as well. As a (somewhat middle-aged) physicist I'm perfectly happy with either system - although the imperial system is obviously better :-) . Just look what happened when NASA tried to use metric measurements for that Mars probe.. And does it really matter anyway? Paul Reeves, G8GJA -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman [mailto:jim77...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 December 2011 09:28 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/13/11 6:37 AM, Reeves Paul wrote: ...and just what is 'less accurate' about pounds, feet, cubic yards etc? The metric system (I use the term loosely) is ideal for those people who cannot do mental arithmetic and can only shift decimal points. All 'imperial' measurements can be defined just as the metre, kilogramme (and there is a dodgy one...)can be. Remember that the metre is originally based on (very) inaccurate French surveying techniques, a yard would do just as well. But it wouldn't be a nice 10,000 km from pole to equator... And besides that's the whole Britannia rules the waves so they get the prime meridian and the French make good maps so they get the meter thing. As a (somewhat middle-aged) physicist I'm perfectly happy with either system - although the imperial system is obviously better :-) . Just look what happened when NASA tried to use metric measurements for that Mars probe.. Actually, when a contractor used U.S. Customary units in data that was supposed to be delivered in Metric. NASA Deep Space Exploration has been metric for decades. I'd have to go look at some old documents to see if Mariner, Ranger, Voyager were inch/pound or metric. (Space Shuttle and part of ISS are U.S. Customary (aka inch/pound) for legacy manufacturing reasons..) And does it really matter anyway? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I thought we were all bi-lingual on this site :-) Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 13 December 2011 09:28 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
But it wouldn't be a nice 10,000 km from pole to equator... And surprise! It still isn't! It is more like 12,713.5 km. ... unless you measure it to one significant figure. Metric vs English is purely about a set of arbitrary constants. Decimal pounds, decimal inches and decimal seconds is just as arbitrary, and just as easy to use as the metric system. And besides that's the whole Britannia rules the waves so they get the prime meridian and the French make good maps so they get the meter thing. I think it was more that the French were so ghoulishly violent with their revolution that the rest of Europe was afraid of them. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Ah yes, God's units as revealed by the French. :-)my mistake Don Jim Palfreyman Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Ah yes, God's units as revealed by the French. :-)my mistake Don Jim Palfreyman Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I'm a scientist? :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bownes Sent: 13 December 2011 16:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Ah yes, God's units as revealed by the French. :-)my mistake Don Jim Palfreyman Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/13/11 8:19 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: But it wouldn't be a nice 10,000 km from pole to equator... And surprise! It still isn't! It is more like 12,713.5 km. Huh? For WGS84 ellipsoid Equatorial radius 6378km * 2 * pi = 40080.4 km Polar Radius 6357km (Clarke 1866 is 6377.5, 6356.6) At about 49 degrees latitude (e.g. Paris), the radius of curvature is about 6366km which corresponds to .68 km from pole to equator. A more precise calculation gives a meridional radius of 6367.4491 km for a circumference 40007.86 km.. Delambre estimated 6377 for equatorial in 1810. ... unless you measure it to one significant figure. Metric vs English is purely about a set of arbitrary constants. Decimal pounds, decimal inches and decimal seconds is just as arbitrary, and just as easy to use as the metric system. And besides that's the whole Britannia rules the waves so they get the prime meridian and the French make good maps so they get the meter thing. I think it was more that the French were so ghoulishly violent with their revolution that the rest of Europe was afraid of them. Yes, that might have had an effect... -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/13/11 8:57 AM, Bob Bownes wrote: What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob AN excellent point.. aren't seconds the only unit that is the same in basically all measurement systems? there's cgs, mks, SI, Imperial, US Customary, Avoirdupois, etc and they all use seconds. And since this is timenuts.. where did the second originate (I recall a story about Galileo counting heartbeats for his experiments rolling balls down ramps... but that sounds a bit too convenient). Is it just dividing hours by 60 to get minutes and minutes by 60 to get seconds (as my daughter was wont to say when learning fractions: curse those Babylonians) http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2209.pdf makes it seem to be Claudius Ptolemy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Yes, but different seconds. I learned many years ago to use the RSF (rod-stone-fortnight) system of units. Small errors are much smaller... Don Jim Lux On 12/13/11 8:57 AM, Bob Bownes wrote: What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob AN excellent point.. aren't seconds the only unit that is the same in basically all measurement systems? there's cgs, mks, SI, Imperial, US Customary, Avoirdupois, etc and they all use seconds. And since this is timenuts.. where did the second originate (I recall a story about Galileo counting heartbeats for his experiments rolling balls down ramps... but that sounds a bit too convenient). Is it just dividing hours by 60 to get minutes and minutes by 60 to get seconds (as my daughter was wont to say when learning fractions: curse those Babylonians) http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2209.pdf makes it seem to be Claudius Ptolemy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I saw: pole to equator and read: pole to pole, or diameter. A simple literacy problem... -Chuck Harris Jim Lux wrote: On 12/13/11 8:19 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: But it wouldn't be a nice 10,000 km from pole to equator... And surprise! It still isn't! It is more like 12,713.5 km. Huh? For WGS84 ellipsoid Equatorial radius 6378km * 2 * pi = 40080.4 km Polar Radius 6357km ... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Number one rule in life - never lose your sense of humour! Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham Sent: 13 December 2011 18:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Yes, but different seconds. I learned many years ago to use the RSF (rod-stone-fortnight) system of units. Small errors are much smaller... Don Jim Lux On 12/13/11 8:57 AM, Bob Bownes wrote: What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob AN excellent point.. aren't seconds the only unit that is the same in basically all measurement systems? there's cgs, mks, SI, Imperial, US Customary, Avoirdupois, etc and they all use seconds. And since this is timenuts.. where did the second originate (I recall a story about Galileo counting heartbeats for his experiments rolling balls down ramps... but that sounds a bit too convenient). Is it just dividing hours by 60 to get minutes and minutes by 60 to get seconds (as my daughter was wont to say when learning fractions: curse those Babylonians) http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2209.pdf makes it seem to be Claudius Ptolemy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 08:19, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: Metric vs English is purely about a set of arbitrary constants. Decimal pounds, decimal inches and decimal seconds is just as arbitrary, and just as easy to use as the metric system. I would agree, as long as you stay within a single version of the English system. But where the metric system has an advantage is that the units with the same name are the same size everywhere; that's not true of English units. I can remember mixing Kodak photographic chemicals for darkroom use, where the mixing instructions are in terms of ounces and gallons. But I was in Canada, where the Imperial (British) ounce and gallon are both different volumes than the American (and thus Kodak) units of the same name. I didn't *have* measuring cups with US ounce markings. We solved the problem by converting the foreign units to ml and litres, which we were equipped to measure. If I remember correctly, Ilford's photo chemical mixing directions were already in metric, so they applied worldwide without any units confusion. Fortunately, the inch seems to be the same size everywhere, so I don't have to figure out whether someone is talking about British inches or American inches. I have a small lathe with inch leadscrews, and a small milling machine with metric leadscrews. Neither measurement system is particularly better or worse than the other. Many of my measuring tools can display in either system. Imagine the chaos if the second was a different length of time in different countries. - Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Having spent more of my adult life in the US than in France, and having been thoroughly exposed to both systems, I can testify (in my own name) that it is easier and faster to get a good approximation when doing mental arithmetic on engineering problems using the metric system than the imperial system. Of course, when you punch numbers in a calculator, the difference is less (even though there are fewer constants involved when using the metric system in general) so there is less typing involved. If you don't care about being accurate, then the imperial system is fine :) A gallon ( a yard, a pound,...) are not the same depending on where you are, and I am not talking about relativistic effects (or maybe I am...). Who cares how much is an ounce of water anyhow? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Reeves Paul paul.ree...@uk.thalesgroup.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:37:44 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? ...and just what is 'less accurate' about pounds, feet, cubic yards etc? The metric system (I use the term loosely) is ideal for those people who cannot do mental arithmetic and can only shift decimal points. All 'imperial' measurements can be defined just as the metre, kilogramme (and there is a dodgy one...)can be. Remember that the metre is originally based on (very) inaccurate French surveying techniques, a yard would do just as well. As a (somewhat middle-aged) physicist I'm perfectly happy with either system - although the imperial system is obviously better :-) . Just look what happened when NASA tried to use metric measurements for that Mars probe.. And does it really matter anyway? Paul Reeves, G8GJA -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman [mailto:jim77...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 December 2011 09:28 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I find the biggest problem in units is when you want to solve a physics problem and need data on typical physical properties of substances, for instance design of thermal insulation for an OCXO. You can look through dozens of books with tables of typical values, most of which are in units of BTU/square foot/inch/hour, and a bewildering mixture of other units, and are usually wrong! Decimal points are slipped, or the values are reciprocals, or the numbers have been lifted from a different industry book that uses different units. It is quite messy to have to measure these things from first principles. At least with metric you can keep looking until you find 5 books that agree, you can see the value with the slipped decimal, and then you may have values that may be reliable or at least stolen from the same source. And you get your answer in Watts. cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/13/11 12:26 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Having spent more of my adult life in the US than in France, and having been thoroughly exposed to both systems, I can testify (in my own name) that it is easier and faster to get a good approximation when doing mental arithmetic on engineering problems using the metric system than the imperial system. Of course, when you punch numbers in a calculator, the difference is less (even though there are fewer constants involved when using the metric system in general) so there is less typing involved. If you don't care about being accurate, then the imperial system is fine :) A gallon ( a yard, a pound,...) are not the same depending on where you are, and I am not talking about relativistic effects (or maybe I am...). Who cares how much is an ounce of water anyhow? Oh, then you're getting into all sorts of interesting units. Gallons, corn gallons, Scots gallons, etc. And when speaking of drink, for some amount of time in England, if you bought it in a bar, it could only be served and priced in fractions of a gill (for distilled spirits) or no less than a pint (for cider, beer, etc.) (a pint is, of course, 4 gill (except in Scotland), and since a gill is 5 fluid ounces, that makes the pint of beer some 20 ounces). And we are not speaking here of archaic units that haven't been seen in centuries. I think the UK went away from the gill fraction thing in bars (I don't recall seeing the sign about all spirits sold in this establishment... last winter in Heathrow), but it certainly existed in the early to mid 90s. (There's this weird alcohol unit thing, but I have no idea what that is.. probably some quasi metric measure of equivalent ethanol). I think, also, that in Australia, the pint of beer varies among states. And the stone is still used as a measure of human weight (and for perhaps other purposes) My wife's English relatives talk about gaining a stone over the holidays. And when hiring a horse to ride in the southwest of England, they tend to ask what you weigh in stone (but the horse business is the epitome of archaic.. Even in the more modern US we run races in furlongs, timing them in 1/5ths of a second, measure height of the horse in hands, although we do weigh jockeys in pounds) There are also a whole host of fair weight and measure laws in most countries which regulate the minimum sale quantity of something (e.g. you cannot buy a loaf of bread weighing less than a pound in the state of Oregon, raising an issue if you wish to purchase a demi-baguette). Likewise, vegetables and fruit have minimum sale quantities (the odd dry pint). I think in Germany, there's a minimum sale quantity for beverages, as well. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Sorry for this personal opinion and comments, let us come back to timing problems with scientific and technical discussions, regards, Arnold Am 14.12.2011 00:15, schrieb Jim Lux: On 12/13/11 12:26 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Having spent more of my adult life in the US than in France, and having been thoroughly exposed to both systems, I can testify (in my own name) that it is easier and faster to get a good approximation when doing mental arithmetic on engineering problems using the metric system than the imperial system. Of course, when you punch numbers in a calculator, the difference is less (even though there are fewer constants involved when using the metric system in general) so there is less typing involved. If you don't care about being accurate, then the imperial system is fine :) A gallon ( a yard, a pound,...) are not the same depending on where you are, and I am not talking about relativistic effects (or maybe I am...). Who cares how much is an ounce of water anyhow? Oh, then you're getting into all sorts of interesting units. Gallons, corn gallons, Scots gallons, etc. And when speaking of drink, for some amount of time in England, if you bought it in a bar, it could only be served and priced in fractions of a gill (for distilled spirits) or no less than a pint (for cider, beer, etc.) (a pint is, of course, 4 gill (except in Scotland), and since a gill is 5 fluid ounces, that makes the pint of beer some 20 ounces). And we are not speaking here of archaic units that haven't been seen in centuries. I think the UK went away from the gill fraction thing in bars (I don't recall seeing the sign about all spirits sold in this establishment... last winter in Heathrow), but it certainly existed in the early to mid 90s. (There's this weird alcohol unit thing, but I have no idea what that is.. probably some quasi metric measure of equivalent ethanol). I think, also, that in Australia, the pint of beer varies among states. And the stone is still used as a measure of human weight (and for perhaps other purposes) My wife's English relatives talk about gaining a stone over the holidays. And when hiring a horse to ride in the southwest of England, they tend to ask what you weigh in stone (but the horse business is the epitome of archaic.. Even in the more modern US we run races in furlongs, timing them in 1/5ths of a second, measure height of the horse in hands, although we do weigh jockeys in pounds) There are also a whole host of fair weight and measure laws in most countries which regulate the minimum sale quantity of something (e.g. you cannot buy a loaf of bread weighing less than a pound in the state of Oregon, raising an issue if you wish to purchase a demi-baguette). Likewise, vegetables and fruit have minimum sale quantities (the odd dry pint). I think in Germany, there's a minimum sale quantity for beverages, as well. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
The beautiful irony in all of this, is that the negative statements about metric and the desire not to change to the metric system comes from the US, yet it was Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson who took the original idea to France when they were ambassadors. The French ran with it and the US didn't (missing out by only a few votes). Oh well. Jim On 14 December 2011 12:01, Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Sorry for this personal opinion and comments, let us come back to timing problems with scientific and technical discussions, regards, Arnold Am 14.12.2011 00:15, schrieb Jim Lux: On 12/13/11 12:26 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Having spent more of my adult life in the US than in France, and having been thoroughly exposed to both systems, I can testify (in my own name) that it is easier and faster to get a good approximation when doing mental arithmetic on engineering problems using the metric system than the imperial system. Of course, when you punch numbers in a calculator, the difference is less (even though there are fewer constants involved when using the metric system in general) so there is less typing involved. If you don't care about being accurate, then the imperial system is fine :) A gallon ( a yard, a pound,...) are not the same depending on where you are, and I am not talking about relativistic effects (or maybe I am...). Who cares how much is an ounce of water anyhow? Oh, then you're getting into all sorts of interesting units. Gallons, corn gallons, Scots gallons, etc. And when speaking of drink, for some amount of time in England, if you bought it in a bar, it could only be served and priced in fractions of a gill (for distilled spirits) or no less than a pint (for cider, beer, etc.) (a pint is, of course, 4 gill (except in Scotland), and since a gill is 5 fluid ounces, that makes the pint of beer some 20 ounces). And we are not speaking here of archaic units that haven't been seen in centuries. I think the UK went away from the gill fraction thing in bars (I don't recall seeing the sign about all spirits sold in this establishment... last winter in Heathrow), but it certainly existed in the early to mid 90s. (There's this weird alcohol unit thing, but I have no idea what that is.. probably some quasi metric measure of equivalent ethanol). I think, also, that in Australia, the pint of beer varies among states. And the stone is still used as a measure of human weight (and for perhaps other purposes) My wife's English relatives talk about gaining a stone over the holidays. And when hiring a horse to ride in the southwest of England, they tend to ask what you weigh in stone (but the horse business is the epitome of archaic.. Even in the more modern US we run races in furlongs, timing them in 1/5ths of a second, measure height of the horse in hands, although we do weigh jockeys in pounds) There are also a whole host of fair weight and measure laws in most countries which regulate the minimum sale quantity of something (e.g. you cannot buy a loaf of bread weighing less than a pound in the state of Oregon, raising an issue if you wish to purchase a demi-baguette). Likewise, vegetables and fruit have minimum sale quantities (the odd dry pint). I think in Germany, there's a minimum sale quantity for beverages, as well. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand at all the arguments against the metric system and the polemic remarks about. I second the statements of Neville and Jim. Without these intelligent french Astronomers like Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre, Pierre-François-André Méchain and J.J. Lalande (more infos: Ken Alder, The Measure of All Things), we would still have the severe problems they had centuries ago! Reading WIKIPEDIA, http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/German_units_of_measurement, we find a good example of weird units (just for only a part of Germany): Before the introduction of the metric system in Germany, almost every town had its own definitions of the units shown below, and supposedly by 1810, in Baden alone, there were 112 different standards for the Elle around Germany. The metric system was a much-needed standardisation in Germany. This was not only a german problem, and we still have today some problems in the world in this area. Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. Saying that the use of pounds, and yards is imprecise is simply ignorant. I believe we should think more about what we are saying and doing, so we would do a big step forward to become a world community. ... Regardless of our measurement systems, we are already a world community. The strife we see in the world today is not the result of measurements, but rather is the result of religion, politics, and culture. -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
cfhar...@erols.com said: Standardization is fine. Attempting to force the world's largest economy to bend to the wishes of Europe isn't fine. The US system has been standardized for more than a century, and works very nicely. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds is every bit as valid a measurement system as the equally arbitrary meter, kilogram and second. Decimal inches, decimal pounds, and seconds flies most of the airframes in the world, won WWII, and took mankind to the moon and beyond. I don't think force is the right word. Rather, it's a simple mater of voting with their pocketbook. The US may be the world's largest economy if you sort by country, but the total GDP of the countries using metric far outweighs all the others. The economy has shifted from local to global. If we want to sell our stuff to the rest of the world it will be easier/cheaper/better if the stuff we are trying to sell fits their measurement system. A friend used to tell the story of Sri Lanka being the number 2 or 3 country using non-metric. What does Britain use to measure bolts? (rather than beer) If anybody has recent info, please update me/us. (My memory could well be wrong, but it was something close to that.) -- Years ago (20-30?) a friend who worked for Ford reported that all new design work was using metric. They weren't dumping the old stuff, just not doing any new designs. (Most of?) The silicon industry shifted to metric for packages many years ago. Yes, drawings are often dual dimensioned. -- If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system would make more sense to you? I have a set of metric wrenches from Sears that are at least 30 years old. My local hardware stores stock metric screws. Their collection probably isn't as good as their non-metric stuff, but it's a good start. I'm in Silicon Valley. Many years ago (20-30?), a friend told me about a store named Mr Metric. They sold metric screws/bolts/nuts. That was back before ordering over the net was even on the radar. The point was that they could get anything and stocked most stuff you were likely to need. If you needed a metric bolt for your car, they had it in stock. http://www.mrmetric.com/ -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Jim Lux writes: intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? Got one already -- it's called the moon! let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Yes, cool isn't it? There's an entire history of using pendulums to measure altitude, and latitude -- and time or distance: at some locations on earth a 1 meter pendulum is so close to a 1 second beat there was consideration to define the meter that way. Some articles on gravity, earth tides, and pendulum clocks: http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006 John Allen writes: Hi Tom - what is HSN? Horological Science Newsletter, http://www.hsn161.com It's a collection of people who still find precision pendulum clocks fascinating, a specific strain of the time nut disease. It's a small group (officially Chapter #161, Horological Science) of the larger: National Association of Watch Clock Collectors, http://www.nawcc.org /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Need to grab some paper and pen and convince myself. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Hi If you have a mountain nearby, it does indeed impact the local field. I believe they first measured that in the 1700's. Bob On Dec 12, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Need to grab some paper and pen and convince myself. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/12/2011 1:19:31 PM, Magnus Danielson (mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org) wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Need to grab some paper and pen and convince myself. For a spherical homogenious mass of radius R; g goes as r^+1 for rR and as r^-2 for rR. (This is a freshman undergraduate Physics problem.) Bill Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time- nuts and follow the instructions there. Bill Beam NL7F ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Aha, there is a near-field for gravity too? Interesting... going to google for gravitational near-field at once! On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Need to grab some paper and pen and convince myself. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Folks, Actually, the USGS goes around measuring the local gravitational constant in various places. There was a gravimeter set up in the basement of one of the local universities a few years back doing just that. And some time ago, the U.S. spent a fair amount of time, money and effort (presumably as did the Soviet Union and others) mapping the Earth's external gravitational field to correct for its effect on ballistic missile trajectory. Probably still do. Francis On Dec 12, 2011, at 5:19 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Need to grab some paper and pen and convince myself. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/12/11 2:19 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. Oh.. I see.. you're thinking that approximating the field as that of a point mass when you're close to the surface of a sphere isn't valid. Hmm. this sounds like one of those integration over a volume problems I was doing 35 years ago in school. integrate (1/r^2)dm for dm over a sphere.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/12/11 2:19 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 12/12/2011 01:37 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Hmm... how does the near-field gravitational pull behave? The far-field is surely r^-2, but wonder about the near-field effect. If the mass is spherically symmetrical (which I assumed), then Gauss's law says that the gravitational force at a distance r from the center is M* G/r^2 pointing directly inward where M is the total mass within radius r. Mass beyond radius r has no net effect (like potential inside a conductive sphere, it all exactly cancels) wikipedia Shell Theorem has a nice exposition. (which I will readily confess I did not remember) As other posters have pointed out, if the mass distribution isn't spherically symmetric, then g will change. Interestingly, until there were artificial satellites, you couldn't tell that the earth is slightly pear shaped. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Folks, Actually, the USGS goes around measuring the local gravitational constant in various places. There was a gravimeter set up in the basement of one of the local universities a few years back doing just that. And some time ago, the U.S. spent a fair amount of time, money and effort (presumably as did the Soviet Union and others) mapping the Earth's external gravitational field to correct for its effect on ballistic missile trajectory. Probably still do. Francis Your intertial naviation systems accelerometers will always sense gravity. The INS computations will need to substract the local gravity vector before integrating acceleration to velocity and then position. This becomes very critical for high accuracy applications where GPS is either not available (submarines) or ICBMs which should work even with GPS knocked down. This is a reason to map gravity anomalies. -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
OK, you are referring to the gravitational field just inside the mass as near field. I was thinking about something like the near EM field. On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:46 AM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote: Folks, Actually, the USGS goes around measuring the local gravitational constant in various places. There was a gravimeter set up in the basement of one of the local universities a few years back doing just that. And some time ago, the U.S. spent a fair amount of time, money and effort (presumably as did the Soviet Union and others) mapping the Earth's external gravitational field to correct for its effect on ballistic missile trajectory. Probably still do. Francis Your intertial naviation systems accelerometers will always sense gravity. The INS computations will need to substract the local gravity vector before integrating acceleration to velocity and then position. This becomes very critical for high accuracy applications where GPS is either not available (submarines) or ICBMs which should work even with GPS knocked down. This is a reason to map gravity anomalies. -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Let's see, arguably the most accurate pendulum clock was the Shortt clock. It was good to 200 microseconds/day, or about 2 E-9, where you could see the effect of the moon and the sun, just. Suppose I have one of those beauties in my basement, with the requisite apparatus to compare it to a Caesium clock disciplined by GPS. Suppose my wife drives her 3000 pound car out of the garage, about 20 feet away. What will be the affect of that local change in mass? Could I discipline a Shortt clock to GPS by using a PLL that slid a one ton mass along the basement floor near the free pendulum? Sliding the one ton mass is left as an exercise for the reader, as is installing it in the basement. Yours in search of more perfect knowledge outside my field, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Suppose I have one of those beauties in my basement, with the requisite apparatus to compare it to a Caesium clock disciplined by GPS. Suppose my wife drives her 3000 pound car out of the garage, about 20 feet away. What will be the affect of that local change in mass? Could I discipline a Shortt clock to GPS by using a PLL that slid a one ton mass along the basement floor near the free pendulum? Sliding the one ton mass is left as an exercise for the reader, as is installing it in the basement. The one ton weight in the basement could be a lot closer than 20 feet. One ton is not a big deal if you have the resources for a basement setup good enough to get the best from a Shortt clock. Iron is 491 lbs/ft^3, so that's only 2x2x1 foot for a ton. The book Tuxedo Park describes Alfred Loomis' home lab. He had 3 Shortt clocks setup in a basement cave cut into bedrock. They would get into lock step unless they were arranged in a triangle all facing the middle. I don't know if the coupling was gravity or mechanical. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
Instead of a GPS disciplined one ton mass, Huygens used a second clock on his mantel. The very slight acceleration that each pendulum exerted on the mantel caused the other clock to displace slightly, so its escapement triggered either earlier or later, and finally the clocks became synchronized with their pendulums 180 degrees out of phase. I'm sure a large oscillating mass anywhere near your house -- i.e. wherever a seismograph would detect it -- would do the same thing, regardless of gravity. Aart Olsen - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 9:17:07 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock? Could I discipline a Shortt clock to GPS by using a PLL that slid a one ton mass along the basement floor near the free pendulum? Sliding the one ton mass is left as an exercise for the reader, as is installing it in the basement. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
On 12/11/11 4:04 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: GCPC -- gravity controlled pendulum clock (elevation) intriguing. From your parenthetical remark, I'm assuming you move the whole assembly up and down to adjust the speed? I was thinking about a huge mass that moves around? let's see.. period is proportional to sqrt(1/g) g is proportional to 1/r^2, so period is proportional to r. Earth is roughly 7000 km radius, so moving it 1 meter higher or lower changes the period by 1part in 7million... interesting. Much more practical than my first though of mass.. 1 ton a meter way is about 1.2E11 smaller than the effect of the Earth's mass ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
