Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
.. at least the original post was about time/frequency rather than mail programs and headers .. David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] hijacking threads (was: ntpq output)
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 00:34:57 -0800 gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: The following is a few ntpq -p outputs. Just random samples over a week. I seem to periodically have large offset. I'm open to suggest how to improve this if the numbers don't look normal. Please trim the raw data to keep the size of any replies as small as possible. May i ask the people here not to hijack threads? Ie do NOT press reply on a random mail and change the subject completely. The better mail clients support threading which means that mails that are a reply to another are sorted directly after that. Which gives a convenient way to keep conversations together. This helps enormously to read mailinglists with a many parallel discussions such as time-nuts. If you now reply to a random message, then your mail ends up in a completely unrelated discussion, and might be burried there between other mails where noone looks. Instead of replying to the mail, right-click on the email adress of the mailinglist and select compose mail to (or what your mail client calls it). This will create a new mail that does not reference any other mail and thus will start a new discussion. Thanks Attila Kinali [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversation_threading [2] http://people.dsv.su.se/~jpalme/ietf/message-threading.html -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
I don't see how the thread was hijacked. I hit reply, but cleared the subject line and text in the original message. No other forums have issues with this. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On Thunderbird, it looks like a fresh thread. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
li...@lazygranch.com said: I don't see how the thread was hijacked. I hit reply, but cleared the subject line and text in the original message. You didn't cleanup the headers. Your message contained: References: cabbxvhtj3b3kbzshesqqzca_do8fak2fxnam4foekttokfw...@mail.gmail.co m 96a132922960f81560b350e1fb50c7fa.squir...@www.webmail.montana.com ca+qpczcq9zyoltbzuudo45opvye3mvyp4jiuz6vrgacqmod...@mail.gmail.com cabbxvht8mrcnny-cqij2p3khqjq5noadwwxzy6ajp3mb+xx...@mail.gmail.com 1327274336.38141.yahoomai...@web181720.mail.ne1.yahoo.com CABbxVHucwHN8M=tdsvtgjj938ff-wbsumj5h530rjcc6f_f...@mail.gmail.com In-reply-to: CABbxVHucwHN8M=TdsvTgJj938Ff-wBSUmj5h530rJCC6f_fUOw@mail.gmail.c om No other forums have issues with this. There are two ways to do threading. One is by Subject. The other is by headers like the above. Some mail systems use one, some use the other. If most of the people in a group/forum/list use software that does it by Subject there might not be anybody who notices and complains when a thread gets hijacked. If you want to send a message to a list/group/whatever, it's just as easy to hit Compose and cut/paste the target address as it is to hit Reply and clean out the junk. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On 1/23/2012 1:04 AM, gary wrote: On Thunderbird, it looks like a fresh thread. You mean Thunderbird the mail program or that you're on Thunderbird the cheap wine? I'm viewing the list in Thunderbird 3.xx as I reply, and your [time-nuts] ntpq output is quite clearly attached in the thread of [time-nuts] HP5328A LEDS driver transistor which now also includes Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads messages. If it looks like a fresh thread to you in your Thunderbird, I can only assume you must have turned off threading in your view of the mail list window. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
Insults are really not what I would expect from educated people. I will leave it at. I run Thunderbird with the default settings. Now that I understand why it is a problem, I will just start a new message. -Original Message- From: Rex r...@sonic.net Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 02:20:09 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads On 1/23/2012 1:04 AM, gary wrote: On Thunderbird, it looks like a fresh thread. You mean Thunderbird the mail program or that you're on Thunderbird the cheap wine? I'm viewing the list in Thunderbird 3.xx as I reply, and your [time-nuts] ntpq output is quite clearly attached in the thread of [time-nuts] HP5328A LEDS driver transistor which now also includes Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads messages. If it looks like a fresh thread to you in your Thunderbird, I can only assume you must have turned off threading in your view of the mail list window. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 01:02:50 -0800 gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: I don't see how the thread was hijacked. I hit reply, but cleared the subject line and text in the original message. No other forums have issues with this. The issue is, that the header, which records the history of a mail is not cleared by simply clearing the subject and mail content. To see the effect, select View - Sort by - Threaded Then you see how the other mail clients, which have threading enabled by default* see a mailinglist with lots of parallel discussions like this. Attila Kinali * Threading enabled has been the standard until outlook came around and thunderbird mimics outlooks behavoir by default -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On 1/23/2012 4:41 AM, Hal Murray wrote: You didn't cleanup the headers. Your message contained: References:cabbxvhtj3b3kbzshesqqzca_do8fak2fxnam4foekttokfw...@mail.gmail.co That's not really his fault. Thunderbird does it wrong. RFC 1036: 2.2.5. References - This field lists the Message-ID's of any messages prompting the submission of this message. It is required for all follow-up messages, and forbidden when a new subject is raised. Of course, threading has been messed up from day one. Not all MUAs support the desired headers, and many get it wrong. Instead of complaining when threading breaks, people should be thankful when it works. That's just the nature of the beast. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
I don't think it is clear that editing the Subject line is the same as raising a new subject. There are a bunch of reasons why you might want to edit a subject line on a thread without starting a new thread: Removing offensive material, fixing a spelling error, adding an OT:, or other label to a thread that has drifted, or adding a few notes about hijacking threads in the thread that was hijacked... are examples. The only legitimate way to raise a new subject is to use Compose. Let's not blame the email program when the problem is really operator error. It is important that folks use Compose when they want to open a new subject, not simply erase the subject line and start writing. -Chuck Harris Mike S wrote: On 1/23/2012 4:41 AM, Hal Murray wrote: You didn't cleanup the headers. Your message contained: References:cabbxvhtj3b3kbzshesqqzca_do8fak2fxnam4foekttokfw...@mail.gmail.co That's not really his fault. Thunderbird does it wrong. RFC 1036: 2.2.5. References - This field lists the Message-ID's of any messages prompting the submission of this message. It is required for all follow-up messages, and forbidden when a new subject is raised. Of course, threading has been messed up from day one. Not all MUAs support the desired headers, and many get it wrong. Instead of complaining when threading breaks, people should be thankful when it works. That's just the nature of the beast. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:58:38 -0500 Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote: Let's not blame the email program when the problem is really operator error. I actually dont blame neither the operator nor the mail program. It's an issue in how features of the technology you use are exposed to the user. The In-Reply-To and References mail headers are hardly known to anyone outside those who have to deal with emails and email systems on a daily basis. Virtually all mail clients handle those field correctly these days, but their function or even their existence is hardly ever exposed to the user. So, how shall the user know that it exists and that he has to care for it? How can you say the mail client is at fault, when it is (technically speaking) working correctly? But lets close this topic. Everyone now knows that there is a difference between pressing reply and deleting the subject line and starting a new mail using compose. No need for any more OT talk :-) Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
Well, I just got out of the shower and had this thought: There are people who hijack a thread *without* changing the Subject. Tension is caused by noble goals meeting human imperfection. So it goes. Oh, look at the time! Gotta run . . . Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Attila Kinali Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:18 AM But lets close this topic. Everyone now knows that there is a difference between pressing reply and deleting the subject line and starting a new mail using compose. No need for any more OT talk :-) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On 1/23/12 6:58 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: I don't think it is clear that editing the Subject line is the same as raising a new subject. There are a bunch of reasons why you might want to edit a subject line on a thread without starting a new thread: Removing offensive material, fixing a spelling error, adding an OT:, or other label to a thread that has drifted, or adding a few notes about hijacking threads in the thread that was hijacked... are examples. The only legitimate way to raise a new subject is to use Compose. Let's not blame the email program when the problem is really operator error. It is important that folks use Compose when they want to open a new subject, not simply erase the subject line and start writing. Well.. it can be sort of tough.. Say you want to quote a piece of the mail that prompted the change in topic. The temptation is to do reply all/reply list, change the subject line, and go to it. (after all, those mail headers are invisible.. I think a decent client would see that you've changed the subject line, and fix the headers, so that it references the previous thread, but starts a new one.) And some mail clients do a better job of threading (both on composition and reading) than others. And worse, different clients do it differently (Exchange and Tbird, for instance). I'm not sure it's reasonable to blaming operator error when the user interface/conceptual model is broken. (and recognizing that different users have different conceptual models, so the same UI might be good for one and not another). We could leap into teco/vi/emacs grin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] hijacking threads
On 1/23/2012 9:58 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: I don't think it is clear that editing the Subject line is the same as raising a new subject. In the context of the References header, as was being discussed in the RFC, that's all it _can_ be (editing the subject line). When creating a message from scratch, there's no References header to deal with, and no Message-ID being replied to, so the comment simply doesn't apply. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
