Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
Folks, I hesitate to do this, but I think this topic has gone on long enough and we're not shedding much new light. Let's give it a rest Thanks, John Yr Humble Listmanager ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Kirkby writes: I seriously doubt you will ever get a better and more researched answer than: Tom has said he has tested bad 10811A's and good 10811-60111's. But Tom has not said (to me anyway) if the peformance of the oscillators tested is randomly distributed. Now, don't be unreasonable. I don't think even Tom has enough differeing 10811's to determine if this is so. No, which is what I guessed would be the case. Therefore without any evidence to the contry, it is probably not an unreasonable assumption that on average the performance of a 10811A today is likely to be better than that of a 10811-60111, since the original specification for the former was higher. Btw, have you seen this: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10811a/90027-1.pdf Yes, and as you can see, not much is specified about the 10811-60111. No phase noise specifications, no gravitional specifications, no magnetic field specifications and only a single time domain stabilty specification of < 1.0 x 10^-11 at 1s. In contrast, there are much more detailed specs on the 10811A, and the time domain stability at 1s is better (I thnk it is a factor of 2, which would mean the 10811A would need to be < 5 x 10^-12) -- David Kirkby, G8WRB Please check out http://www.g8wrb.org/ of if you live in Essex http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Kirkby writes: >> I seriously doubt you will ever get a better and more researched >> answer than: >> >>>Tom has said he has tested bad 10811A's and good 10811-60111's. > >But Tom has not said (to me anyway) if the peformance of the oscillators >tested is randomly distributed. Now, don't be unreasonable. I don't think even Tom has enough differeing 10811's to determine if this is so. Btw, have you seen this: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10811a/90027-1.pdf -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Kirkby writes: I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that there would be a higher probability of a randomly chosen 10811A being better today than a randomly chosen 10811-60111. I guess the only way to know this is to test a sufficient number to get statically valid data - something that I doubt few would have sufficient oscillators to be able to do, and even fewer could be bothered to do. I seriously doubt you will ever get a better and more researched answer than: Tom has said he has tested bad 10811A's and good 10811-60111's. But Tom has not said (to me anyway) if the peformance of the oscillators tested is randomly distributed. I don't currently have the facilities to test the oscillator (as I lack sufficient oscillators), so the most obvious thing to do is something I am unable to do. -- David Kirkby, G8WRB Please check out http://www.g8wrb.org/ of if you live in Essex http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Kirkby writes: >I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that there would be a higher probability >of a randomly chosen 10811A being better today than a randomly chosen >10811-60111. I guess the only way to know this is to test a sufficient >number to get statically valid data - something that I doubt few would >have sufficient oscillators to be able to do, and even fewer could be >bothered to do. I seriously doubt you will ever get a better and more researched answer than: >Tom has said he has tested bad 10811A's and good 10811-60111's. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
Richard (Rick) Karlquist (N6RK) wrote: All 10811-6 are simply selections of one of the above. After a lot of time has gone by, these selections are, for the most part, irrelevant. The specs on the 10811A are higher than on the 10811-60111. If I remember correctly, there are no phase noise specs at all on the 10811-60111, and the stability is only specified at 1s and is twice as poor as the 10811A. (I'm going from memory). Are you simply saying that as these are all old components, any oscillator that was a higher spec 20 years ago has no higher probability of being good today than one that was less good 20 years ago? Tom has said he has tested bad 10811A's and good 10811-60111's. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that there would be a higher probability of a randomly chosen 10811A being better today than a randomly chosen 10811-60111. I guess the only way to know this is to test a sufficient number to get statically valid data - something that I doubt few would have sufficient oscillators to be able to do, and even fewer could be bothered to do. -- David Kirkby, G8WRB Please check out http://www.g8wrb.org/ of if you live in Essex http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
RE: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo(Ray Mahoney)
, but it looks like a list of > numbers folllows this, and not the letter A I'm converned this is > perhaps a special, at an odd freqency, and not the standard 10MHz > 10811A. Is there any where it actually says 10811A on the > package? Can you give me a price to ship to the UK. Address would All 10811's of any flavor have 10 MHz outputs. (Except an extremely small number of prototypes at 10.23 MHz for a GPS initiative that were never released AFAIK). If you know anything about making an SC cut crystal of the quality of the 10811, you would know that changing the frequency requires a huge R&D investment, way beyond what any special could justify. There are basically only three models of 10811 made: 1) With PC edge connector 2) With coax connectors 3) Special for the 5071A with extended tuning range, which is unlikely to show up for sale. All 10811-6 are simply selections of one of the above. After a lot of time has gone by, these selections are, for the most part, irrelevant. "Model 10811A" is a nomenclature used in cases where an oscillator was sold directly to the end user as a component. HP was briefly in the merchant oscillator business. The vast majority of 10811's were for internal use. They all have 10811-6 numbers. Many of the 10811-6 numbers are selected to meet tighter specs than the 10811A spec. There is nothing superior about an oscillator labeled "10811A". BTW, it was superceded years ago by the 10811D/E, in terms of model numbers. Rick Karlquist R&D Engineer at HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998 ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo (Ray Mahoney)
I appreciate the notification of somebody who does not deliver what was advertised. There is too much spin doctoring going on. Joe Geller wrote: David, It is understandable that you are disappointed that it turns out this seller is offering the 10811 - 60111 version instead of the 10811 A model that you were looking for. But if you look at your question to him objectively, I think one can reasonably see that he took your question with regard to the output frequency. from the link you cited to: "Q: Hi, Can you confirm it is a 10MHz HP 10811A - have you checked to see if 10MHz is present? I can see the 10811 in the picture, but it looks like a list of numbers folllows this, and not the letter A I'm converned this is perhaps a special, at an odd freqency, and not the standard 10MHz 10811A. Is there any where it actually says 10811A on the package? Can you give me a price to ship to the UK. Address would be Department of Medical Physics Mallet Place Engineering Building University College London London WC1E 6BT England Apr-04-05 A: The 10mhz output was tested with a oscilloscope. It is not a special. Shipping to you business address is $32.00US. We also have a HP10811-60111 we can send you for the same ending auction price. Good luck bidding ---Todoelmondo " Most eBay surplus electronics seller have little knowledge about such matters as the fine differences between the stability of an "A" model versus a -60111 version of a 10811. As you might guess, most of these are simply "pulls" from old counters (most commonly the military version of the 5328A) or the like. While it is certainly informative that you have told those in the group who may not have been aware, that there is a difference between the two models, your continued public attack of this individual, in my opinion, is not appropriate in this or any other public forum. You may have a bona fide dispute with him (I doubt it, especially since you recognized that it was probably not an "A" model), but that can be more properly handled by an eBay dispute forum or in a worst case in a U.S. Small Claims court. I find it quite disgusting and unprofessional that you would not only attempt to destroy his business, but further publish his work place and work address over a matter of less than a $100 hobby purchase gone wrong. Regards, Joe Geller On Sat, 07 May 2005 03:37:01 +0100, David Kirkby wrote: Just in case any of you were thinking of buying an HP 10811A, there is someone (Ray Mahoney, callsign N4NBS) on eBay selling one right now http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7513958962 who I would definitely avoid. I won an auction for an HP 10811A from him http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7505853855 but instead he sent me an HP 10811-60111. He is failing to address the situation. I've offered to pay him $50 for it, if he send me the unit I won, or to return it at his cost. I don't see why I should pay carriage costs due to his mistake. He has ceased all contact. I sent him a FAX to the US Patent Office on Thursday where he works, simpling asking he contact me, just in case his email is not working, but he has not done so. He seems to have email addresses of [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo (Ray Mahoney)
David Kirkby wrote: Feel free to continue to discuss it privately with me if you wish. I have set the reply address to myself only. I did change the "reply to" address, but the mailing list has changed the "reply to" adress once again. One obviously can't override that process. -- David Kirkby, G8WRB Please check out http://www.g8wrb.org/ of if you live in Essex http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo (Ray Mahoney)
Joe Geller wrote: David, It is understandable that you are disappointed that it turns out this seller is offering the 10811 - 60111 version instead of the 10811 A model that you were looking for. But if you look at your question to him objectively, I think one can reasonably see that he took your question with regard to the output frequency. from the link you cited to: "Q: Hi, Can you confirm it is a 10MHz HP 10811A - have you checked to see if 10MHz is present? I can see the 10811 in the picture, but it looks like a list of numbers folllows this, and not the letter A I'm converned this is perhaps a special, at an odd freqency, and not the standard 10MHz 10811A. Is there any where it actually says 10811A on the package? Can you give me a price to ship to the UK. Address would be Department of Medical Physics Mallet Place Engineering Building University College London London WC1E 6BT England Apr-04-05 A: The 10mhz output was tested with a oscilloscope. It is not a special. Shipping to you business address is $32.00US. We also have a HP10811-60111 we can send you for the same ending auction price. Good luck bidding ---Todoelmondo " Yes, I see you point, but as someone else pointed out, he did say he ALSO had an HP 10811-60111. Whilst I have not posted it here before, here is part of an email I sent him within two minutes of paying for the item via Paypal. * Hi, * I have sent you payment for this. Please ensure it * is the HP10811A and not the HP10811-60111, which you * said in an email you also had." I think that makes it pretty clear I do not want part number HP 10811-60111. So if he felt these oscillators were all the same (and I accept he may have done so), he should have clarified it then, before sending it across the Atlantic. Most eBay surplus electronics seller have little knowledge about such matters as the fine differences between the stability of an "A" model versus a -60111 version I accept that, but it should be pretty blinking clear I was not wanting 10811-60111. While it is certainly informative that you have told those in the group who may not have been aware, that there is a difference between the two models, your continued public attack of this individual, in my opinion, is not appropriate in this or any other public forum. You may have a bona fide dispute with him (I doubt it, especially since you recognized that it was probably not an "A" model), but that can be more properly handled by an eBay dispute forum I'm well aware eBay sellers often keep the one picture for many items. It is not right unless they state it (in my personal opinion), but I'm aware of it. In fact, that is what he told me he does. In fact, the same picture is used again. The eBay dispute forum has been tried - their Square Trade process. I did not choose the option of paying money to have a "SquareTrader" look at the problem (which would be more cost to me), but used an automated system where they would send him emails over a period of 4 days, asking him to discuss that matter with me via their web site. He has failed to response to that Squaretrade process, as he has failed to respond to continued private emails, international phone calls where I have left a message on his voicebox. I sent a FAX which I sent to his work which simply asked him to get in touch if he was having problems via email. Yet he is clearly not unwell, as he is finding time to auction other items. (Another oscillator and a Textronix scope last time I looked). or in a worst case in a U.S. Small Claims court. I'm in the UK, so US courts are not a sensible option for me. I find it quite disgusting and unprofessional that you would not only attempt to destroy his business, but further publish his work place and work address over a matter of less than a $100 hobby purchase gone wrong. With carriage, it is $121 or so. I have tried to be reasonable with him, even suggesting he auction it again, and I'd post it on from the UK for him to the seller. I've said I'll keep both if he send me on the other, and I'll pay him another $50. What I not willing to do is pay the carriage costs in returning something I made very clear I never wanted. I feel I have been most reasonable with the guy, but it is clear to me he has realised the cost to rectify the problem is not insignificant. The two-way carriage costs on this will be around 70% the cost of the item. But I feel I'd made it very clear I did not want the HP 10811-60111. To me, many people buy things for hobbies. Some companies only sell things for hobbies - model aircraft for example, but if their practices are poor, (as his are), then it is not unreasonable for them to be named in this way. Feel free to continue to discuss it privately with me if you wish. I have set the reply address to myself only. -- David Kirkby, G8WRB Please check out http://www.g8wrb.org/ of if you live in Essex http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/ _
Re: [time-nuts] Warning: HP oscillators on eBay from todoelmondo (Ray Mahoney)
David, It is understandable that you are disappointed that it turns out this seller is offering the 10811 - 60111 version instead of the 10811 A model that you were looking for. But if you look at your question to him objectively, I think one can reasonably see that he took your question with regard to the output frequency. from the link you cited to: "Q: Hi, Can you confirm it is a 10MHz HP 10811A - have you checked to see if 10MHz is present? I can see the 10811 in the picture, but it looks like a list of numbers folllows this, and not the letter A I'm converned this is perhaps a special, at an odd freqency, and not the standard 10MHz 10811A. Is there any where it actually says 10811A on the package? Can you give me a price to ship to the UK. Address would be Department of Medical Physics Mallet Place Engineering Building University College London London WC1E 6BT England Apr-04-05 A: The 10mhz output was tested with a oscilloscope. It is not a special. Shipping to you business address is $32.00US. We also have a HP10811-60111 we can send you for the same ending auction price. Good luck bidding ---Todoelmondo " Most eBay surplus electronics seller have little knowledge about such matters as the fine differences between the stability of an "A" model versus a -60111 version of a 10811. As you might guess, most of these are simply "pulls" from old counters (most commonly the military version of the 5328A) or the like. While it is certainly informative that you have told those in the group who may not have been aware, that there is a difference between the two models, your continued public attack of this individual, in my opinion, is not appropriate in this or any other public forum. You may have a bona fide dispute with him (I doubt it, especially since you recognized that it was probably not an "A" model), but that can be more properly handled by an eBay dispute forum or in a worst case in a U.S. Small Claims court. I find it quite disgusting and unprofessional that you would not only attempt to destroy his business, but further publish his work place and work address over a matter of less than a $100 hobby purchase gone wrong. Regards, Joe Geller On Sat, 07 May 2005 03:37:01 +0100, David Kirkby wrote: > Just in case any of you were thinking of buying an HP 10811A, there > is someone (Ray Mahoney, callsign N4NBS) on eBay selling one right > now > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7513958962 > > who I would definitely avoid. > > I won an auction for an HP 10811A from him > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7505853855 > > but instead he sent me an HP 10811-60111. He is failing to address > the situation. I've offered to pay him $50 for it, if he send me > the unit I won, or to return it at his cost. I don't see why I > should pay carriage costs due to his mistake. > > He has ceased all contact. I sent him a FAX to the US Patent Office > on Thursday where he works, simpling asking he contact me, just in > case his email is not working, but he has not done so. > > He seems to have email addresses of [EMAIL PROTECTED], >[EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
